Turned down BS/MD for HYPSM. Now I'm a reapplicant

[salemstein]

Stressed out from writing my primaries so I'm cooling off on here. Yea... this sux. Whenever I share my story I get inundated with questions like "wtf did you do" or "did you fail?" I did neither; in fact, every part of my app felt right when I first applied. Many "right" things won't necessarily get you in. One "wrong" thing will get you out.

You guys are probably thinking "why didn't this guy take the BS/MD and run with it?" I don't really have a good answer to that myself. My reasoning for choosing HYPSM was 1) School has a med school acceptance rate of over 2x compared to national average (yea... look at where I'm now, lol) 2) If I decided to drop out of pre-med there's so many other great options the school offered. Granted the BS/MD program was for a lower tier school, a doctor is a doctor, right? Only if I had a time machine.

So here's what my immature high school self was thinking: "Hey, if I go to HYPSM, so it must be easy to get into the top med schools!" I thought I was set. Rookie mistake. You can't just rely on school name alone (which I found out matters little for med admissions) to carry you over the line. Grade-inflation, if there was any, didn't help. I first realized it while taking gen chem. My seminar group consisted of kids who competed in the chem olympics, published papers in high-impact journals, won international science fairs, etc. all while in high school. I was just a normal guy who was lucky to have gotten in. I pulled a crazy amount of hours studying, consistently went to office hours, and still ended up usually around average, which most of the time was a B, maybe inching up to a B+ for smaller classes. While it was really motivating to be in the same class as these high achievers, most of the time I was trying to play catch-up.

Flash forward a few years and I was talking with a dean trying to figure out why I didnt get into med school. One of the reasons was my GPA, while not bad, was inconsistent. I took classes at a local state school to address that problem (it was 10x cheaper too). I went in prepared for battle, expecting nothing worse than UG... and boy was I wrong. I had an upper level bio class that felt easier content wise than my alma's intro bio. It took my p-chem half a month to go over rate law, whereas at my alma that would have taken maybe 3 days at most. I had the highest grade in my class 80% of the time while spending less than 20% time studying compared to UG. What I loved about exams at my post-bac was that they actually tested stuff you were supposed to know, like if 2 + 2 was taught in class, 2 + 2 came up on the test. Not 2^242, not 2x^2 dy/dx. At my alma mater, even the intro science classes had items on the exam that made even the hardest questions on the MCAT look like a joke. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the mental stimulation, but not the fact that profs sometimes wrote stuff just to "get" people/ set a curve. It does not do a good job reflecting on what we were supposed to learn in class.

Do I regret my decision? Not really. At the time, theres no way I could have known what I know now. I've had the chance to meet so many amazing people and do so many interesting things at my alma. To folks who have to make a similar decision in the future: Take the BS/MD. The traditional path involves a lot of stress and enough hoop jumping to make even the most out-of-shape premeds turn into mental ninjas (if you make it, that is). Save your stamina for med school because you will need it.

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[LuluLovesMe]

What school was the bs/md at? Was it 7 or 8 years?

 

[NotASerialKiller]

You guys are probably thinking "why didn't this guy take the BS/MD and run with it?" I don't really have a good answer to that myself. My reasoning for choosing HYPSM was 1) School has a med school acceptance rate of over 2x compared to national average (yea... look at where I'm now, lol) 2) If I decided to drop out of pre-med there's so many other great options the school offered. Granted the BS/MD program was for a lower tier school, a doctor is a doctor, right? Only if I had a time machine.

Your #2 reason for turning it down isn't foolish at all. 18 is extremely young to have to decide on any career path, let alone one as intense as medicine. In retrospect it may not have been the best decision for you, but I don't think that it's a great idea for every teenager who can get accepted to a BS/MD to take it. Exploring different options is an important part of college.

Turning it down because you're certain you'll get into better school, however, does sound like a big mistake.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

First of all thank you for sharing and I'm sorry you didn't make it yet. However It's certainly not the best option for everyone to take a 6/7yr MD over going to any school, regardless of the schools stature. In hindsight it might seem that way but those programs do have high drop out rates for a reason. I do know 2 people who have graduated from them with no qualms and have matched into good programs; that still doesn't mean everyone will have the same experience.

I do also agree that pre-meds at these schools have so many other options it would most likely be in their best interest to attend an easier state school if getting into medical school is the primary goal. We get threads like this quite often actually. You're never alone keep plugging along man you'll make it.

 

[Gaian]

.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Stressed out from writing my primaries so I'm cooling off on here. Yea... this sux. Whenever I share my story I get inundated with questions like "wtf did you do" or "did you fail?" I did neither; in fact, every part of my app felt right when I first applied. Many "right" things won't necessarily get you in. One "wrong" thing will get you out.

You guys are probably thinking "why didn't this guy take the BS/MD and run with it?" I don't really have a good answer to that myself. My reasoning for choosing HYPSM was 1) School has a med school acceptance rate of over 2x compared to national average (yea... look at where I'm now, lol) 2) If I decided to drop out of pre-med there's so many other great options the school offered. Granted the BS/MD program was for a lower tier school, a doctor is a doctor, right? Only if I had a time machine.

Are you sure? That means your school would have an 85% acceptance rate. Not department or major but the entire school.

Your second reason is a very valid and reasonable argument for choosing HPYSM.

So here's what my immature high school self was thinking: "Hey, if I go to HYPSM, so it must be easy to get into the top med schools!" I thought I was set. Rookie mistake. You can't just rely on school name alone (which I found out matters little for med admissions) to carry you over the line. Grade-inflation, if there was any, didn't help. I first realized it while taking gen chem. My seminar group consisted of kids who competed in the chem olympics, published papers in high-impact journals, won international science fairs, etc. all while in high school. I was just a normal guy who was lucky to have gotten in. I pulled a crazy amount of hours studying, consistently went to office hours, and still ended up usually around average, which most of the time was a B, maybe inching up to a B+ for smaller classes. While it was really motivating to be in the same class as these high achievers, most of the time I was trying to play catch-up.

Flash forward a few years and I was talking with a dean trying to figure out why I didnt get into med school. One of the reasons was my GPA, while not bad, was inconsistent. I took classes at a local state school to address that problem (it was 10x cheaper too). I went in prepared for battle, expecting nothing worse than UG... and boy was I wrong. I had an upper level bio class that felt easier content wise than my alma's intro bio. It took my p-chem half a month to go over rate law, whereas at my alma that would have taken maybe 3 days at most. I had the highest grade in my class 80% of the time while spending less than 20% time studying compared to UG. What I loved about exams at my post-bac was that they actually tested stuff you were supposed to know, like if 2 + 2 was taught in class, 2 + 2 came up on the test. Not 2^242, not 2x^2 dy/dx. At my alma mater, even the intro science classes had items on the exam that made even the hardest questions on the MCAT look like a joke. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the mental stimulation, but not the fact that profs sometimes wrote stuff just to "get" people/ set a curve. It does not do a good job reflecting on what we were supposed to learn in class.

Do I regret my decision? Not really. At the time, theres no way I could have known what I know now. I've had the chance to meet so many amazing people and do so many interesting things at my alma. To folks who have to make a similar decision in the future: Take the BS/MD. The traditional path involves a lot of stress and enough hoop jumping to make even the most out-of-shape premeds turn into mental ninjas (if you make it, that is). Save your stamina for med school because you will need it.

That is quite unfortunate. However, there must be more to the story than you're telling. The average accepted GPA for pre-meds from Harvard is 3.59 last time I checked. Despite your GPA, you must have not been on par in other areas. As you may have seen in a recent thread, certain schools are feeder schools and you will be judged if you are relatively lacking in an area compared to peers because you are seen as having ample opportunities. What was your MCAT and EC's like? How well did you select a school list? It is well within reason that you may have applied very top heavy and overestimated your application. Coming from HYPSM, it's not easy to go down a tier or more…

I think as a reapplicant, you would do well to discuss your scenario with people here so we can best guide you to landing an MD acceptance this cycle.

Usually, if someone is talented/smart/whatever enough to be accepted to a BS/MD, they are capable of landing an MD acceptance on condition that they don't "slack". I have quite a few UG friends at HYPSM and the biggest two problems for them are:
1) They feel too secure after attending such a school. They feel as if they have "made it" in life and do not work as hard as they would if they were at a different school. This usually leads to lacklustre EC's, grades, etc.
2) They elect to go to the school because of the prestige without considering other factors such as academic preparation. One of my friends go into Harvard from a rural high school that had no AP's etc simply because what she did academically was amazing for such a setting. She decided to attend a state uni and was only slightly above average there. She recognised that simply getting into the school isn't the end all; she was smart to realise that her success may have been due to her environment and future success may be hindered by that same environment. It is true that a lot of students at HYPS will come in with very strong backgrounds academically; as soon as it became obvious that you aren't getting the grades you desired, some discussion should be held.

 

[neurotroph]

Are you sure? That means your school would have an 85% acceptance rate. Not department or major but the entire school.

Yeah that acceptance rate is accurate for HYPSMs. Here's Yale for example (they're kind enough to release their stats publicly): http://ocs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2015 STATISTICS_YALE COLLEGE MEDICAL SCHOOL APPLICANTS.pdf First-time applicants had an 85% acceptance rate.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Yeah that acceptance rate is accurate for HYPSMs. Here's Yale for example (they're kind enough to release their stats publicly): http://ocs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2015 STATISTICS_YALE COLLEGE MEDICAL SCHOOL APPLICANTS.pdf First-time applicants had an 85% acceptance rate.

Wow that's kinda crazy haha!

 

[JustAPhD]

Yeah that acceptance rate is accurate for HYPSMs. Here's Yale for example (they're kind enough to release their stats publicly): http://ocs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2015 STATISTICS_YALE COLLEGE MEDICAL SCHOOL APPLICANTS.pdf First-time applicants had an 85% acceptance rate.

I could be completely wrong, but don't some schools who boast very high med school acceptance rates have GPA/MCAT cutoffs at which point the committee will not write them a letter?

 

[neurotroph]

I could be completely wrong, but don't some schools who boast very high med school acceptance rates have GPA/MCAT cutoffs at which point the committee will not write them a letter?

That probably happens at some places but Yale doesn't do that afaik. They definitely don't need to. Even so, that doesn't mean the student can't apply.

 

[aldol16]

Are you sure? That means your school would have an 85% acceptance rate. Not department or major but the entire school.

I will also confirm. My undergrad was HYPSM (not Yale though) and statistics show ~90% year after year. These are not admission rates to top med schools though - only med schools overall.

 

[aldol16]

I could be completely wrong, but don't some schools who boast very high med school acceptance rates have GPA/MCAT cutoffs at which point the committee will not write them a letter?

Not at my former HYPSM.

 

[bananafish94]

I was accepted to a program at an "inferior" school where I would have had a guaranteed early admission to the MD program they partnered with if I maintained a 3.5 GPA. Do I regret this? If you asked me a month ago before I got accepted, I would say it was a grave mistake. Now, I say that it would've saved me an extraordinarily stressful year, but that I wouldn't trade my experiences at college for anything. Also, high school students are basically poor at decision making, so you can't be too hard on yourself for a choice you made when you were 17 or 18. I suspect that most high school students don't have a concept of how hard it is to get into any medical school, either.

 

[aldol16]

So here's what my immature high school self was thinking: "Hey, if I go to HYPSM, so it must be easy to get into the top med schools!" I thought I was set. Rookie mistake. You can't just rely on school name alone (which I found out matters little for med admissions) to carry you over the line. Grade-inflation, if there was any, didn't help. I first realized it while taking gen chem. My seminar group consisted of kids who competed in the chem olympics, published papers in high-impact journals, won international science fairs, etc. all while in high school. I was just a normal guy who was lucky to have gotten in. I pulled a crazy amount of hours studying, consistently went to office hours, and still ended up usually around average, which most of the time was a B, maybe inching up to a B+ for smaller classes. While it was really motivating to be in the same class as these high achievers, most of the time I was trying to play catch-up.

Hi, I think we've met several times in the MCAT forums. Thank you for your post and I am very sorry for your experience. I hope that you can focus on the positives as well - in the end, you still have a diploma from HYPSM and that opens many doors! Back when I first entered undergrad, I shared many of your views (though I didn't apply to any BA/MD programs). I thought, "Hey, you know what? A degree from HYPSM will open doors for me and give me many choices to choose from if I decide not to do med." I still believe in the value of the degree but I also understand now that we don't get as much of a boost in med school admissions as I would like. HYPSM students still enjoy high acceptance rates and are overrepresented at the top medical schools, but you also need that top GPA to get in. I found that we do get leeway - there's a 0.1 or so buffer zone for your GPA as long as your MCAT is consistent with the school's median - but it's not as big of a cushion as we would like. The name also only matters to top private med schools. So I hope that going forward, you can focus on the value of the education you received (from friends who have gone on to top med schools, they've said that med school in terms of difficulty was not as intense as undergrad but did just require a whole lot of memorization)!

 

[aldol16]

Meanwhile kids are going to state schools equally as hard or harder than your HYPSM and getting accepted. Your 4th paragraph reeks of pretentiousness. Maybe that leaked into your app and kept you out?

It didn't seem that pretentious to me, but I think that OP's point is that the competition at his school resulted in a lower GPA than at an easier state school and a GPA that low could be crippling. He/she isn't implying that some state schools are just as hard as HYPSM (Berkeley and Michigan immediately come to mind) - only that many, if not most, state schools are not as difficult as HYPSM and the competition is easier. I watched many of my high school peers go from B students to straight A students at my state school.

 

[Mansamusa]

I could be completely wrong, but don't some schools who boast very high med school acceptance rates have GPA/MCAT cutoffs at which point the committee will not write them a letter?

My school has a similar acceptance rate (85-90%) and anyone who completes the committee interview gets a letter. No matter what your gpa is

(I went to a top non-HYPSM school)

 

[Lawpy]

It didn't seem that pretentious to me, but I think that OP's point is that the competition at his school resulted in a lower GPA than at an easier state school and a GPA that low could be crippling. He/she isn't implying that some state schools are just as hard as HYPSM (Berkeley and Michigan immediately come to mind) - only that many, if not most, state schools are not as difficult as HYPSM and the competition is easier. I watched many of my high school peers go from B students to straight A students at my state school.

This is further evidence to @efle claim that Brown is the best uni to go for premed. Relaxed learning, good grade inflation, lots of opportunities, and similar prestige with HYPSM

 

[Mansamusa]

This is further evidence to @efle claim that Brown is the best uni to go for premed. Relaxed learning, good grade inflation, lots of opportunities, and similar prestige with HYPSM

Yeah, I think Brown's BS/MD program is the only one worth comsidering. If you decide against med school, you still have all those resources available

 

[Mansamusa]

I could be completely wrong, but don't some schools who boast very high med school acceptance rates have GPA/MCAT cutoffs at which point the committee will not write them a letter?

The caveat is that the acceptance rate probably also includes those getting into DO schools. There aren't many going DO, but maybe 3-5%ish.

But top schools are filled with rich people from powerful/whiny families, haha. I think if the committee refused to write letters for some applicants, they would get lots of angry phone calls (this might not be why they give letter to everyone, but is definitely a plus for the pre-med office). I would not want to deal with one of these parents for daring to not give little Johnny a committee letter.

Plus, there are a few people getting into MD schools with a 2.85-3.0 each year, so it's hard to make a solid cut off.

 

[piii]

It didn't seem that pretentious to me, but I think that OP's point is that the competition at his school resulted in a lower GPA than at an easier state school and a GPA that low could be crippling. He/she isn't implying that some state schools are just as hard as HYPSM (Berkeley and Michigan immediately come to mind) - only that many, if not most, state schools are not as difficult as HYPSM and the competition is easier. I watched many of my high school peers go from B students to straight A students at my state school.

Besides Princeton and MIT, I'm not buying it. Some of those schools are known for extreme grade inflation. OP didn't get in because of his own flaws, nothing to do with his school.

 

[aldol16]

This is further evidence to @efle claim that Brown is the best uni to go for premed. Relaxed learning, good grade inflation, lots of opportunities, and similar prestige with HYPSM

I just respectfully disagree with that claim. Brown does not share similar prestige with HYPSM and post-graduate opportunities are more limited, although still vast in comparison with average state school. Brown does have a relaxed, non-competitive environment but not all Ivy League schools are created equal. Within the Ivy League itself, it's generally considered that HYP are on top and this is usually reflected in campus recruiting.

 

[aldol16]

Beside Princeton and MIT, I'm not buying it. Some of those schools are known for extreme grade inflation. OP didn't get in because of his own flaws, nothing to do with his school.

One cannot say that grade inflation is rampant across an entire school. Grade inflation generally does not impact science departments all that much (I can find Princeton's recently-published statistics on that if you want - the grade deflation policy did little to change most science departments' grading) and the sciences are very important to a pre-med and pre-med GPA. One could argue that giving out 30% of As to a class is absurd, but consider the level of students at HYP. I am not saying that OP is not flawed. I am simply saying that the paragraph you referred to did not, to me, seem pretentious.

 

[piii]

I just respectfully disagree with that claim. Brown does not share similar prestige with HYPSM and post-graduate opportunities are more limited, although still vast in comparison with average state school. Brown does have a relaxed, non-competitive environment but not all Ivy League schools are created equal. Within the Ivy League itself, it's generally considered that HYP are on top and this is usually reflected in campus recruiting.

Literally the only people that care about the nuances between prestige of differently "tiered" Ivys are the people that go to HYP. It doesn't matter at all and is worthless to argue about it.

 

[Mansamusa]

MIT and Princeton are very difficult. Some l

Beside Princeton and MIT, I'm not buying it. Some of those schools are known for extreme grade inflation. OP didn't get in because of his own flaws, nothing to do with his school.

There are other top schools without grade inflation... It's also been discussed how grading is normally how you do compared to your classmates, which means it's hard to be ahead of the pack when you are already at a top school. It has also been discussed how the inflation is more in non-science classes.

There is also a 40% chance that OP went to Princeton or MIT. And OP didn't mean his comments in a pretentious way. He was reflecting upon his decisions and about how he could have made things easier on himself

 

[efle]

I just respectfully disagree with that claim. Brown does not share similar prestige with HYPSM and post-graduate opportunities are more limited, although still vast in comparison with average state school. Brown does have a relaxed, non-competitive environment but not all Ivy League schools are created equal. Within the Ivy League itself, it's generally considered that HYP are on top and this is usually reflected in campus recruiting.

My claim isn't that HYP name is identical to Brown or Cornell in general, but rather that it's negligibly different for med admissions. Recruiting for consulting/finance might be stronger at Princeton for example, but I really doubt an applicant being from Brown vs Yale would change whether they got a med interview somewhere, while being from Yale vs University of New Hampshire might. Given the student happiness ratings, total lack of course requirements, and rampant inflation, I consider Brown the best undergrad option (just my opinion/what I'd tell a younger sibling to shoot for).

For best BS/MD I'd pick WashU though, since you not only get the security of an MD option, but a top MD so you don't have to wonder any "what ifs." Northwestern's BS/MD and Rice-Baylor are similar. After that, you're looking at going to undergrad and MD programs a step down from what you'd likely have as options (obviously cases like OP are against this idea!)

 

[aldol16]

Literally the only people that care about the nuances between prestige of differently "tiered" Ivys are the people that go to HYP. It doesn't matter at all and is worthless to argue about it.

And campus recruiters. If you, you know, ever want a job outside of medicine.

 

[piii]

One cannot say that grade inflation is rampant across an entire school. Grade inflation generally does not impact science departments all that much (I can find Princeton's recently-published statistics on that if you want - the grade deflation policy did little to change most science departments' grading) and the sciences are very important to a pre-med and pre-med GPA. One could argue that giving out 30% of As to a class is absurd, but consider the level of students at HYP. I am not saying that OP is not flawed. I am simply saying that the paragraph you referred to did not, to me, seem pretentious.

There are other top schools without grade inflation... It's also been discussed how grading is normally how you do compared to your classmates, which means it's hard to be ahead of the pack when you are already at a top school. It has also been discussed how the inflation is more in non-science classes.

There is also a 40% chance that OP went to Princeton or MIT

I understand OP's need for venting but mentioning how his undergrad affected his admittance is completely futile. It's just a means to make excuses and won't actually help him be a better applicant.

 

[piii]

And campus recruiters. If you, you know, ever want a job outside of medicine.

I've had a job outside medicine for 4 years. Maybe for IB, but other than that, no one gives two craps. You're living in a bubble if you think otherwise.

 

[aldol16]

My claim isn't that HYP name is identical to Brown or Cornell in general, but rather that it's negligibly different for med admissions. Recruiting for consulting/finance might be stronger at Princeton for example, but I really doubt an applicant being from Brown vs Yale would change whether they got a med interview somewhere, while being from Yale vs University of New Hampshire might. Given the student happiness ratings, total lack of course requirements, and rampant inflation, I consider Brown the best undergrad option (just my opinion/what I'd tell a younger sibling to shoot for).

Now that you clarify, we are in agreement. For the purposes of med school admissions, the difference may be negligible. But for other purposes (namely, you know, jobs outside medicine for those of us who have considered it) they are very much not equal. However, while I don't think the difference between Yale and Brown would change whether someone got an interview, I believe that pedigree does matter if you're talking about top med schools on the East Coast who like pedigree. This may depend on the specific individual reviewing your application, but I'll tell you right now that there are certain schools that feed into certain med programs (and not only Yale undergrads to Yale med).

 

[aldol16]

I've had a job outside medicine for 4 years. Maybe for IB, but other than that, no one gives two craps. You're living in a bubble if you think otherwise.

I'm talking about consulting and finance. I don't know of too many other firms who do campus recruiting at Ivy League schools. Oh, and also grad school since that's my personal experience.

 

[Lawpy]

I just respectfully disagree with that claim. Brown does not share similar prestige with HYPSM and post-graduate opportunities are more limited, although still vast in comparison with average state school. Brown does have a relaxed, non-competitive environment but not all Ivy League schools are created equal. Within the Ivy League itself, it's generally considered that HYP are on top and this is usually reflected in campus recruiting.

My claim isn't that HYP name is identical to Brown or Cornell in general, but rather that it's negligibly different for med admissions. Recruiting for consulting/finance might be stronger at Princeton for example, but I really doubt an applicant being from Brown vs Yale would change whether they got a med interview somewhere, while being from Yale vs University of New Hampshire might. Given the student happiness ratings, total lack of course requirements, and rampant inflation, I consider Brown the best undergrad option (just my opinion/what I'd tell a younger sibling to shoot for).

Now that you clarify, we are in agreement. For the purposes of med school admissions, the difference may be negligible. But for other purposes (namely, you know, jobs outside medicine for those of us who have considered it) they are very much not equal. However, while I don't think the difference between Yale and Brown would change whether someone got an interview, I believe that pedigree does matter if you're talking about top med schools on the East Coast who like pedigree. This may depend on the specific individual reviewing your application, but I'll tell you right now that there are certain schools that feed into certain med programs (and not only Yale undergrads to Yale med).

This is further evidence to @efle claim that Brown is the best uni to go for premed. Relaxed learning, good grade inflation, lots of opportunities, and similar prestige with HYPSM

I was saying why Brown is the best place to go for premed, so similar prestige was referring to what medical schools think of Brown/Ivy counterparts in relation to HYPSM.

 

[Mansamusa]

I'm talking about consulting and finance. I don't know of too many other firms who do campus recruiting at Ivy League schools. Oh, and also grad school since that's my personal experience.

There's more than that. Dropbox, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc all heavily recruit at my school. Then t14 law schools are filled with top schools grads.

 

[Lawpy]

Literally the only people that care about the nuances between prestige of differently "tiered" Ivys are the people that go to HYP. It doesn't matter at all and is worthless to argue about it.

And campus recruiters. If you, you know, ever want a job outside of medicine.

I've had a job outside medicine for 4 years. Maybe for IB, but other than that, no one gives two craps. You're living in a bubble if you think otherwise.

I'm talking about consulting and finance. I don't know of too many other firms who do campus recruiting at Ivy League schools. Oh, and also grad school since that's my personal experience.

There's more than that. Dropbox, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc all heavily recruit at my school. Then t14 law schools are filled with top schools grads.

Well, so much for piii's arguments.

 

[efle]

Literally the only people that care about the nuances between prestige of differently "tiered" Ivys are the people that go to HYP.

The HYP(SM) rep has started to strike me as odd lately, when other schools like Columbia and UChicago are getting to test score and acceptance ranges equal or better than members of HYPSM, plus a dozen more schools now have student bodies of similar academic metrics (albeit higher admit rates). These days it seems to me the students going to HYPSM are a subset that are the most interesting rather than the smartest and hardest working, as may have been more the distinguishing feature a few decades ago when places like Yale and Cornell had admit rates of 20% and 40%!

 

[aldol16]

I was saying why Brown is the best place to go for premed, so similar prestige was referring to what medical schools think of Brown/Ivy counterparts in relation to HYPSM.

Someone might want to tell the Wedge that so he can change his spreadsheet.

 

[piii]

Well, so much for piii's arguments.

Lol, I live in the Bay Area and know maybe a 100 or so people that work at those companies. Various roles but Some are doing high level project management as programmers. None went to Ivys.

Also, breaking news, companies send recruiters to top schools. Who knew!

 

[aldol16]

The HYP(SM) rep has started to strike me as odd lately, when other schools like Columbia and UChicago are getting to test score and acceptance ranges equal or better than members of HYPSM, plus a dozen more schools now have student bodies of similar academic metrics (albeit higher admit rates). These days it seems to me the students going to HYPSM are a subset that are the most interesting rather than the smartest and hardest working, as it may have been a few decades ago when places like Yale and Cornell had admit rates of 20% and 40%!

As a pre-med, this should already be clear to you! Not all 4.0s and 2400s are created equal. I would say that in terms of academic metrics, you could compare students pretty well at all the Ivies. But still, there is more prestige to the HYP name than at other schools and it's not due to the students themselves but what those students go on to accomplish. Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, Supreme Court Justices (Princeton has three sitting Supreme Court justices), Presidents (Obama was Columbia but Michelle was Princeton and Bush was Yale), etc. That's why these schools have such prestige. Now, lest anyone try to interpret this as relevant to med school, I'll quash that immediately that it may not be particularly relevant for med school. But the prestige is still there and the rigor of Princeton's and MIT's curricula are known. How much that matters for top private schools - well, only adcoms at the top private schools can tell you that and as far as I know, they've been pretty tight-lipped.

 

[aldol16]

Also, breaking news, companies send recruiters to top schools. Who knew!

Perhaps you misread. Their definition of "top schools" is not the same as yours. I have yet to meet a recruiter who thinks that student coming out of Princeton or Harvard's top-ranked economics programs are equal to Brown economics student. Maybe for med school they would be equal. But not in this job world. (I'll say again that I'm mainly talking about consulting and finance jobs with a few tech jobs as well that recruit there. Tech jobs are more merit-based as you still have to take various tests and show that you can solve complex problems quickly - less so for finance and only a little bit for consulting).

 

[MaxPlancker]

There is the slim chance that OP went to a high school that sends 1 kid every 10000 or so years to the Ivies et al where academic preparation isn't quite up to the level of most incoming students. In that case, straight 100s could have turned to average or below, quite reasonably. This may have caused OP to spend all his/her time on studying and therefore spent very little time on ECs.

Possible but unlikely scenario for the OP.

 

[chocoholicsoxfan]

My claim isn't that HYP name is identical to Brown or Cornell in general, but rather that it's negligibly different for med admissions. Recruiting for consulting/finance might be stronger at Princeton for example, but I really doubt an applicant being from Brown vs Yale would change whether they got a med interview somewhere, while being from Yale vs University of New Hampshire might. Given the student happiness ratings, total lack of course requirements, and rampant inflation, I consider Brown the best undergrad option (just my opinion/what I'd tell a younger sibling to shoot for).

For best BS/MD I'd pick WashU though, since you not only get the security of an MD option, but a top MD so you don't have to wonder any "what ifs." Northwestern's BS/MD and Rice-Baylor are similar. After that, you're looking at going to undergrad and MD programs a step down from what you'd likely have as options (obviously cases like OP are against this idea!)

Doesn't WashU's BS/MD require you to maintain like a 3.7 and get a 35 or something on your MCAT anyway though? With grade deflation there, I feel like those stats could get you into a "good" med school anyway, unless you do no ECs whatsoever or have terrible social skills.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Doesn't WashU's BS/MD require you to maintain like a 3.7 and get a 35 or something on your MCAT anyway though? With grade deflation there, I feel like those stats could get you into a "good" med school anyway, unless you do no ECs whatsoever or have terrible social skills.

Yea a 36 is required for the BS/MD program so might as well never be in it...most kids aren't gonna hit that 36 LOL.

 

[aldol16]

There is the slim chance that OP went to a high school that sends 1 kid every 10000 or so years to the Ivies et al where academic preparation isn't quite up to the level of most incoming students. In that case, straight 100s could have turned to average or below, quite reasonably. This may have caused OP to spend all his/her time on studying and therefore spent very little time on ECs.

The classes have become more diverse than you think. My estimate is around 40% of my undergraduate class was from schools that did not regularly send students to Ivies. The other 60% did come from schools that sent schools to Ivies every year but the competition in college still became much tougher. I would say perhaps only 5-10% of incoming students had experienced a curriculum as rigorous as the one they faced. It's a whole spectrum so there's no easy black and white here.

Yea a 36 is required for the BS/MD program so might as well never be in it...most kids aren't gonna hit that 36 LOL.

WashU admissions has gotten very competitive. I remember when I applied to college, I got into several top schools on the East Coast but not WashU. I think I was outright rejected there. Given the caliber of those students, I would say that many students in that program do have the capability to hit 35-36. The average MCAT for applicants from my university is 34-35. In fact, the average MCAT of rejected applicants from my university is several points higher than the national average for matriculants.

 

[efle]

As a pre-med, this should already be clear to you! Not all 4.0s and 2400s are created equal. I would say that in terms of academic metrics, you could compare students pretty well at all the Ivies. But still, there is more prestige to the HYP name than at other schools and it's not due to the students themselves but what those students go on to accomplish. Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, Supreme Court Justices (Princeton has three sitting Supreme Court justices), Presidents (Obama was Columbia but Michelle was Princeton and Bush was Yale), etc. That's why these schools have such prestige. Now, lest anyone try to interpret this as relevant to med school, I'll quash that immediately that it may not be particularly relevant for med school. But the prestige is still there and the rigor of Princeton's and MIT's curricula are known. How much that matters for top private schools - well, only adcoms at the top private schools can tell you that and as far as I know, they've been pretty tight-lipped.

Well, I'm saying that reputation has been built on prior decades and decades of HYPSM being the schools you went to if you were very smart and very hardworking. Test scores in the top couple percent and making it with a 20% admit rate in the 80s? That's tough but reasonable to get into if you're an impressive person, and is now what Top 20 is thrown around as shorthand for.

But these days with an accept rate of 5%, getting in is more about having an interesting story, playing the early decision game, or playing the right instrument that the orchestra is looking for that year, or being part of the 30-40% of the class that's legacy. I don't really buy that the average student nowadays at Yale will go on to accomplish more than the average student at UChicago - or say Vanderbilt, an up-and-comer on the elite university scene but already boasting a 9% admit rate and test score range equal to HYP - but it will take a long time for Vandy to graduate enough classes of impressive people for them to get the kind of respect given to similar students going to Princeton.

TL;DR HYP has countless years as the top dogs feeding into their legendary status. By the current numbers though, I think a lot of schools a layperson has never heard of are going to start graduating equally impressive batches of alumni. Guess we can come back to this in 40 years and talk about whether Vanderbilt has gained any "wow ur smart" factor.

Doesn't WashU's BS/MD require you to maintain like a 3.7 and get a 35 or something on your MCAT anyway though?

Yeah 3.7 / 36 iirc, but considering the median entering stats are 3.9 / 38 for WashU med that's not as outrageous as it sounds.

 

[MaxPlancker]

The classes have become more diverse than you think. My estimate is around 40% of my undergraduate class was from schools that did not regularly send students to Ivies. The other 60% did come from schools that sent schools to Ivies every year but the competition in college still became much tougher. I would say perhaps only 5-10% of incoming students had experienced a curriculum as rigorous as the one they faced. It's a whole spectrum so there's no easy black and white here.

My bad for the post that wasn't crystal clear. I am well aware of the diversity and I'm not surprised that most students don't experience curricula as tough as what they will face. What I was specifically referring to are the people that excel during high school but have the luck of attending high schools that are amongst the least rigorous and do not prepare you anywhere close to the average level of academic preparedness incoming students at HYP have.

 

[aldol16]

But these days with an accept rate of 5%, getting in is more about having an interesting story, playing the early decision game, or playing the right instrument that the orchestra is looking for that year, or being part of the 30-40% of the class that's legacy. I don't really buy that the average student nowadays at Yale will go on to accomplish more than the average student at UChicago - or say Vanderbilt, an up-and-comer on the elite university scene but already boasting a 9% admit rate and test score range equal to HYP - but it will take a long time for Vandy to graduate enough classes of impressive people for them to get the kind of respect given to similar students going to Princeton.

I definitely agree that getting in now has to do more with having the right skills that they're looking for because with undergrad admissions more so than med school admissions, high stats are a dime a dozen. You need to be more interesting than that and at least have a passion. As an alumni interviewer, I look for fit with the school. I try to imagine the student there and if I can't, then that's a red flag. This is for the school's benefit as well as the student's - I don't want him/her to be miserable there while at the same time I want him/her to contribute to the student life at the school.

We shouldn't talk about the average student at HYP versus the average student at another school because let's face it - the average student doesn't win the Nobel Prize and doesn't become a Supreme Court justice. We need to talk about overall, whether students at HYP versus another school tend to accomplish more (broadly defined). And I don't think one can or should speculate about the future. All we know is that these schools consistently have churned out students who are high achievers in their respective fields. Whether other school are catching up is up to debate - and is largely unknown now.

 

[Mansamusa]

I definitely agree that getting in now has to do more with having the right skills that they're looking for because with undergrad admissions more so than med school admissions, high stats are a dime a dozen. You need to be more interesting than that and at least have a passion. As an alumni interviewer, I look for fit with the school. I try to imagine the student there and if I can't, then that's a red flag. This is for the school's benefit as well as the student's - I don't want him/her to be miserable there while at the same time I want him/her to contribute to the student life at the school.

We shouldn't talk about the average student at HYP versus the average student at another school because let's face it - the average student doesn't win the Nobel Prize and doesn't become a Supreme Court justice. We need to talk about overall, whether students at HYP versus another school tend to accomplish more (broadly defined). And I don't think one can or should speculate about the future. All we know is that these schools consistently have churned out students who are high achievers in their respective fields. Whether other school are catching up is up to debate - and is largely unknown now.

Okay, now you lost my agreement. I didn't realize that you were trying to make the claim that HYP are something special compared to their peer schools. They aren't. HYP is not seen differently than Columbia, UChicago, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Hopkins, Dartmouth, Caltech, etc by recruiters. And to say that HYP has a more impressive lists of contributions and successes than these other schools is, in my opinion, a laughable claim.

 

[efle]

I definitely agree that getting in now has to do more with having the right skills that they're looking for because with undergrad admissions more so than med school admissions, high stats are a dime a dozen. You need to be more interesting than that and at least have a passion. As an alumni interviewer, I look for fit with the school. I try to imagine the student there and if I can't, then that's a red flag. This is for the school's benefit as well as the student's - I don't want him/her to be miserable there while at the same time I want him/her to contribute to the student life at the school.

We shouldn't talk about the average student at HYP versus the average student at another school because let's face it - the average student doesn't win the Nobel Prize and doesn't become a Supreme Court justice. We need to talk about overall, whether students at HYP versus another school tend to accomplish more (broadly defined). And I don't think one can or should speculate about the future. All we know is that these schools consistently have churned out students who are high achievers in their respective fields. Whether other school are catching up is up to debate - and is largely unknown now.

Do you think there is really that much nuance to fit among similarly competitive universities? Like if you swapped half the student body at your alma mater with half the student body at Columbia would people notice a lot change?

Fair enough, I do think an accomplished genius kid that will one day figure out dark matter is still more likely to go to Harvard than Vandy if admitted to both. I just think it's odd how people view HYPSM as a whole as some kind of super-tier within the tippy top, as if saying you go to Yale should really be significantly more impressive than saying you go to Penn. When people throw names around it is the average/whole student body they've got such reverence of, not just the one guy that year that will someday win them another Nobel prize.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Okay, now you lost my agreement. I didn't realize that you were trying to make the claim that HYP are something special compared to their peer schools. They aren't. HYP is not seen differently than Columbia, UChicago, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Hopkins, Dartmouth, Caltech, etc by recruiters. And to say that HYP has a more impressive lists of contributions and successes than these other schools is, in my opinion, a laughable claim.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Even the 80 year old grandma in the middle of Nowhere Land has probably heard of Harvard but perhaps not Dartmouth or Caltech. Go International and the name recognition difference probably magnifies. There is a significant difference in the general population's perception of Harvard versus any other school. Even versus Yale or Princeton. HYP is a big step above schools like UChicago in terms of recognition.

That being said, is HYP actually more special than its peers in some way that is tangible to students? Perhaps slightly but I doubt it's noticeable.

As far as contributions, HY does boast quite a bit more than its peer schools. Almost 1/4 of US presidents have been H or Y educated. There is not a single Supreme Court Justice who isn't H or Y educated, ever. Facebook, Microsoft = H. Many medical firsts = H. Most Rhodes = P. I'd say there is a significant difference in contributions and successes. That is a large reason for the prestige of the schools.

 

[efle]

I would have to respectfully disagree. Even the 80 year old grandma in the middle of Nowhere Land has probably heard of Harvard but perhaps not Dartmouth or Caltech. Go International and the name recognition difference probably magnifies. There is a significant difference in the general population's perception of Harvard versus any other school. Even versus Yale or Princeton. HYP is a big step above schools like UChicago in terms of recognition.

That being said, is HYP actually more special than its peers in some way that is tangible to students? Perhaps slightly but I doubt it's noticeable.

As far as contributions, HY does boast quite a bit more than its peer schools. Almost 1/4 of US presidents have been H or Y educated. There is not a single Supreme Court Justice who isn't H or Y educated, ever. Facebook, Microsoft = H. Many medical firsts = H. Most Rhodes = P. I'd say there is a significant difference in contributions and successes. That is a large reason for the prestige of the schools.

I'd just want to point out again that this is largely historical recognition building. Back when most presidents and supreme court justices were looking at colleges, HYP was much easier to get into and much less rivaled by other universities.

I'd also point out that UC Berkeley is probably more famous than many schools that are tougher to get admitted to, especially globally. Layperson rep isn't a great yardstick here. How many elite universities in China can you name? Does that make it safe to think they're easier to get into than University of Michigan? Etc.

 

[aldol16]

Okay, now you lost my agreement. I didn't realize that you were trying to make the claim that HYP are something special compared to their peer schools. They aren't. HYP is not seen differently than Columbia, UChicago, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Hopkins, Dartmouth, Caltech, etc by recruiters. And to say that HYP has a more impressive lists of contributions and successes than these other schools is, in my opinion, a laughable claim.

I'm talking about HYPSM specifically. In my opinion, to compare these schools to Dartmouth, Brown, and Columbia is laughable - for the purposes of consulting, finance, and graduate school, that is. I am talking specifically about those professions. I would also add CalTech and Wharton but not UPenn A&S. It's also not a claim. You can look up all these schools' alumni contributions to society. You can judge for yourself but when you do so, I would do so systematically. Whether there is any difference in the current student bodies is known by nobody and whether it's measurable is an even bigger question. But I'm interested in the perception of these schools by recruiters, etc. Here's quote verbatim from a career fair I went to years ago after I asked what skills one recruiter was looking for: "I look for students from top schools - Harvard, Yale, and Princeton - and not for specific skill sets because I know we can take those students and teach them the skills they need to know very quickly." Take that as you will.

Do you think there is really that much nuance to fit among similarly competitive universities? Like if you swapped half the student body at your alma mater with half the student body at Columbia would people notice a lot change?

Fair enough, I do think an accomplished genius kid that will one day figure out dark matter is still more likely to go to Harvard than Vandy if admitted to both. I just think it's odd how people view HYPSM as a whole as some kind of super-tier within the tippy top, as if saying you go to Yale should really be significantly more impressive than saying you go to Penn. When people throw names around it is the average/whole student body they've got such reverence of, not just the one guy that year that will someday win them another Nobel prize.

I think there would be but any response here is speculation.

No, when people throw names around, it's the school's prestige that they're trying to buy into and that prestige is constructed by previous achievements.