UCSF "100% Clinical" Positions

[C4C]

This past week I have received emails from three separate recruiters encouraging me to look at "100% clinical" positions at UCSF.

I've never considered an academic position, but I probably shouldn't dismiss this one without first getting some details. Problem is, I don't trust recruiters, so I'd really prefer not to have my questions answered by a meddlesome middleman (or woman).

Can anybody on the forum give me any details, or put me in contact with anybody at UCSF? Feel free to send me a direct message, if necessary. I'd love to hear the real skinny from somebody who isn't trying merely to clear a recruitment bonus.

Thanks.

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[urge]

This past week I have received emails from three separate recruiters encouraging me to look at "100% clinical" positions at UCSF.

I've never considered an academic position, but I probably shouldn't dismiss this one without first getting some details. Problem is, I don't trust recruiters, so I'd really prefer not to have my questions answered by a meddlesome middleman (or woman).

Can anybody on the forum give me any details, or put me in contact with anybody at UCSF? Feel free to send me a direct message, if necessary. I'd love to hear the real skinny from somebody who isn't trying merely to clear a recruitment bonus.

Thanks.

They used to pay their attendings less than they paid their CRNAs.

You might want to check if that has changed first.

 

[HalO'Thane]

They used to pay their attendings less than they paid their CRNAs.

You might want to check if that has changed first.

Are you exaggerating? I have never heard of that in my life

 

[deleted126335]

Mid 90s it was true. At least for new hires.

 

[deleted162650]

Paging @cchoukal

 

[nimbus]

There are state employed CRNAs who make 300-400k/yr in the Bay Area so I wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[nimbus]

Mid 90s it was true. At least for new hires.

I can confirm. I worked for one year in the late 1990s at a UC hospital for a whopping 110k. Pretty sure at least some of the CRNAs made more.

 

[mmag]

Ask how much you get paid and for what kind of hours. cRNAs get a base of 266k for 40 hours with no call and time-and-a-half for overtime with full benefits and pension at.
If you want to have fun look it up yourself, Compensation at the University of California: Annual Wage

 

[deleted171991]

Ask how much you get paid and for what kind of hours. cRNAs get a base of 266k for 40 hours with no call and time-and-a-half for overtime with full benefits and pension at.
If you want to have fun look it up yourself, Compensation at the University of California: Annual Wage

Ridiculous! There is no way an overpaid CRNA will give a piss on an attending who makes the same or less.

Most of the UCSF CRNAs make between 220 and 250k. Unbelievable. It gives a new perspective on how f-ed up that state is.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Ridiculous! There is no way an overpaid CRNA will give a piss on an attending who makes the same or less.

Most of the UCSF CRNAs make between 220 and 250k. Unbelievable. It gives a new perspective on how f-ed up that state is.

"F-ed up"? Lol you're delusional. 95% of anesthesia jobs in CA are MD only. The only places crnas work are academics and kaiser. And if you understand how expensive SF is, you'd understand why crnas get paid that. CA is one of the few states that actually gets it when it comes to this specialty

 

[deleted162650]

"F-ed up"? Lol you're delusional. 95% of anesthesia jobs in CA are MD only. The only places crnas work are academics and kaiser. And if you understand how expensive SF is, you'd understand why crnas get paid that. CA is one of the few states that actually gets it when it comes to this specialty

To me it’s only F’f up if that’s more than a new attending would make. What’s base pay for new staff at UCSF?

 

[Wiscoblue]

So it’s expensive for the CRNAs and not for the new MD that they hire for even less?

 

[cchoukal]

Paging @cchoukal

I don't know much of the specifics, as I only do ICU at the big house (all my OR time is at the VA). What I do know is that positions like this have been developed at a number of large, academic centers across the country. It is an acknowledgement of the realities of increased clinical volume, limits to the numbers and workloads of residents, and the financial equipoise between (or political misgivings about) hiring CNRAs vs physicians. I know a lot of thought and discussion went into how to make these positions attractive and yet distinct from the academic positions held by faculty, but I don't know any details about hours/pay/conditions. I would guess that most of these positions would involve solo work and applicants should not expect to work with residents.

As for the other assertions about pay at UCSF, as others have pointed out (and displayed!) state employees' salaries are a matter of public record. I've only been here since 2009, so I can't say what people were paid in the 90s, although I was pretty sure the university did not employ CNRAs in the 90s (the General and the VA always have). I can say that "base pay" is generally not an accurate representation of what physicians' total pay is.

 

[deleted171991]

I don't know much of the specifics, as I only do ICU at the big house (all my OR time is at the VA). What I do know is that positions like this have been developed at a number of large, academic centers across the country. It is an acknowledgement of the realities of increased clinical volume, limits to the numbers and workloads of residents, and the financial equipoise between (or political misgivings about) hiring CNRAs vs physicians. I know a lot of thought and discussion went into how to make these positions attractive and yet distinct from the academic positions held by faculty, but I don't know any details about hours/pay/conditions. I would guess that most of these positions would involve solo work and applicants should not expect to work with residents.

As for the other assertions about pay at UCSF, as others have pointed out (and displayed!) state employees' salaries are a matter of public record. I've only been here since 2009, so I can't say what people were paid in the 90s, although I was pretty sure the university did not employ CNRAs in the 90s (the General and the VA always have). I can say that "base pay" is generally not an accurate representation of what physicians' total pay is.

That gives a new dimension to f-ed up, but this time on the UCSF side. So a 100% clinical person is not good enough to teach the residents, but the geniuses who are busy with all the cacademic semi-useless research, while rarely doing a case on their own, are?

This should be another big red flag for people who have the delusion that academia is better than PP. Academia is the original AMC, the original sin, and the main reason the ACT model won't die.

 

[deleted171991]

So it’s expensive for the CRNAs and not for the new MD that they hire for even less?

One word to explain everything: union.

 

[cchoukal]

That gives a new dimension to f-ed up, but this time on the UCSF side. So a 100% clinical person is not good enough to teach the residents, but the geniuses who are busy with all the cacademic semi-useless research, while rarely doing a case on their own, are?

This should be another big red flag for people who have the delusion that academia is better than PP. Academia is the original AMC, the original sin, and the main reason the ACT model won't die.

Full discosure: as above, I only do ICU, not OR cases at the University, and these opinions are my own, based on what I've observed.

I wouldn't look at it that way. There are only so many residents to go around. A big chunk (maybe 1/3) of cases are currently being done by faculty attendings solo as it is, and clinical volume continues to grow. You can't mint more residents, so you either hire more CRNAs, or you hire more physicians. Those physicians could be quality faculty with academic potential AND interest, but there are only so many of those around. There are plenty of competent, quality clinicians that want to do interesting cases for a decent wage, but who maybe don't have aspirations or interest in the other things that come along with working at a major university (e.g., committee work, research, and, yes, teaching). Maybe there are residents who want to stay in the area and have a decent job, but aren't otherwise interested in academics.

As an aside, teaching residents is no longer just plopping them on the stool and teaching them how to do a case while the attending sips coffee in the lounge. There are metrics, milestones, wellness activities, structured didactics, and a lot of paperwork. To say nothing of the fact that if you want to be a core curriculum faculty member, you have to actually DO academic stuff or the ACGME gives you a hard time. Not everyone wants that job.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

I don't know what their starting pay is but I know some anesthesiologists at UCSF who are making more than a lot of folks in PP. >500K and this doesn't include benefits or their pension. I don't think their pension is as generous as Kaiser's but a pension is still worth a lot (probably 15-25% of your annual total cash compensation). So when you include the benefits, the paid time off, the pension, 401k, etc, the total compensation for some of them will be around 700K. Don't kid yourself, an "academic" job can be a great option. If you think I'm lying about these numbers, you can search all CA state salaries online.

 

[mmag]

Faculty | UCSF Dept of Anesthesia crossed to Compensation at the University of California: Annual Wage
Perhaps for full professors getting a % of their grant money or the chair. Almost all of the assistant clinical faculty are in the low to mid 300's. I guess you could make over 500 by taking all the available calls but a cRNa doing the same hours/calls would also pull about that much. There's an OR nurse at UCSF at pulls down 430k by doing a bunch of overtime and calls: search for "clin nurse 3" and sort by pay.

I don't know what their starting pay is but I know some anesthesiologists at UCSF who are making more than a lot of folks in PP. >500K and this doesn't include benefits or their pension. I don't think their pension is as generous as Kaiser's but a pension is still worth a lot (probably 15-25% of your annual total cash compensation). So when you include the benefits, the paid time off, the pension, 401k, etc, the total compensation for some of them will be around 700K. Don't kid yourself, an "academic" job can be a great option. If you think I'm lying about these numbers, you can search all CA state salaries online.

 

[rakotomazoto]

For what it's worth, I have heard from a couple of UCSD residents that new attendings there also make sub-CRNA wages. I never dived any deeper to see if there was much truth to it, but this was from totally different residents at different events. No intention to spread lies on the internet, just wondering if anyone else can confirm or deny that this type of situation exists elsewhere.

 

[nimbus]

Someone should apply, get the offer, and report back

 

[deleted50478]

I don't know what their starting pay is but I know some anesthesiologists at UCSF who are making more than a lot of folks in PP. >500K and this doesn't include benefits or their pension. I don't think their pension is as generous as Kaiser's but a pension is still worth a lot (probably 15-25% of your annual total cash compensation). So when you include the benefits, the paid time off, the pension, 401k, etc, the total compensation for some of them will be around 700K. Don't kid yourself, an "academic" job can be a great option. If you think I'm lying about these numbers, you can search all CA state salaries online.

Why do you think the pension is worth 15-25% of salary? I think the value of pensions tends to be overstated. The pension is probably worth less than 5% of income. Eg. Invest 5% of income over 20-30 years and buy an annuity at the end (not that you should actually buy an annuity) and it would be worth more than the pension, so by my math, the pension is worth 5% or less.