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UIC Dog Lab

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by Spang, Oct 31, 2001.

  1. Spang

    Spang SDN Angel 10+ Year Member

    Can any current MS1's tell me about the dog lab at the Chicago site? Is it mandatory or are there alternatives offered? My tour guide said there was one but didn't elaborate and I didn't get a chance to ask any further on the subject.

    Thanks in advance......

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  3. sandflea

    sandflea Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jun 23, 2001
    :eek: :eek: i'm not going to med school anymore! :eek: :eek: no one told me about that!
  4. Atlas

    Atlas Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Columbus, OH
    yeah really! I wasn't aware puppies were apart of the deal! Mice are no prob, but DOGS?!?!?! No thanks. I have 3 dogs and would never be able to look them in the face ever again!
  5. paisley1

    paisley1 Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Oct 1, 2001
    NYMC also has a dog lab but it's not required. I can't believe it, aren't we training to be HUMANE professionals here?
  6. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc 10+ Year Member

    Aug 25, 2001
    Taking an Away team....
    atls(that's advanced trauma life support for the non-er/surgery set) also requires a dog or pig's a great experience. you place chest tubes, do cut downs, dpl's, crichs, pericardiocentesis, etc.
    I have taken it twice with pigs on both occasions.I don't know how I would feel about dogs either.pals(pediatric advanced life support) has an optional cat lab for intubation but the cats survive and go home with the staff.
  7. E'01

    E'01 1K Member 7+ Year Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    Harvard also has a dog lab.
  8. Spang

    Spang SDN Angel 10+ Year Member


    Thanks for all the input, but can any UIC MS1 give me some insight?


  9. Tone2002

    Tone2002 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Oct 29, 2001
    What do you mean "dog lab"? In medical school? I'm in Undergrad now, and I'm dissecting a dog. Its really not that bad.
  10. Atlas

    Atlas Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Columbus, OH
    WHAT...ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH PATIENTS TO GO AROUND THAT WE HAVE TO START USING DOGS?!!! If we have to dissect a dead one, that's another story. I've dissected a ton of dead things. But, if I wanted to mess around with live dogs and cats, I'd go to vet school!!!! Urgh!
  11. DrMakes

    DrMakes Junior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jul 23, 2001
    Pritzker used to have a dog lab. These days we use a computer program that was put together to simulate several aspects of the functioning (and nonfunctioning) cardiovascular system. This change was effected as students many students felt uncomfortable using live dog hearts.
  12. PimplePopperMD

    PimplePopperMD Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Jun 14, 2000
    The UIC dog lab is optional. People have various opinions on the subject, and all are respected.

    My personal opinion (as a dog lover) is that it was a worthwhile experience. Don't let anyone who hasn't experienced it try to convince you that you can learn "just as much" with a computer simulation.
  13. md_2005

    md_2005 Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    Nov 26, 2000
    I don't believe the dog lab is mandatory. In fact, we aren't even graded on it, and I don't think they took attendance. They did however ask us for ID to make sure that we are indeed UIC COM students (and I guess not some sicko off the street).

    To be honest, I kinda find it surprising that someone who is wanting to be doctor would not be willing to participate in the lab. My personal opinion on the dog lab was that it has been one of my best experiences so far.

    I have some possible ideas about your reservations, and maybe I can clarify the purpose/experience of this lab...

    The professor gave a little talk before the lab. He explained that he is a "dog lover" and has several dogs himself. However, he does not equate them with human beings. What he does not find acceptable is having a student's first living experience be with another human being. And that the purpose of the lab was to give us important first hand experience.

    For me the experience is a bit difficult to explain (plus I'm short on time). However, I found it to be the closest experience to the "real thing" as possible. I've worked with pigs, frogs, mice, and cadavers... and I find it easy to forget the relationship at times. Even working with fresh cadavers, I sometimes forget that this was once a real person.

    The dog lab was completely different. Seeing the dog anesthetized with it's tongue hanging out of it's mouth with a ventilator and EKG hooked up to him was definately real. I could hear him breath. When I put my hand on his head or chest, he was warm. I found myself being more careful and nervous with the incisions I made. And another thing that was different was that he bled. I also think that since we look at dogs with almost as much affection as with other people this made it seem all the more real as well. I heard that around 20 some people fainted last year. I guess this explains that some people were not ready to deal with it, but it is better that they learn this in a lab than in the OR.

    The experiments involved stimulation of the vagus nerve, injecting various chemicals in the femoral arteries, cutting the carotid artery, etc. and seeing the effects on the EKG. We also opened the thoracic cavity and was able to hold the dog's heart in our hand as it was beating. Pretty fascinating stuff.

    After the experiment, I wanted to "put him back together" but we injected a supersaturated K+ solution. It was really sad to see him die first hand.

    I know you may think that this is all unnecessary. However, all these dogs were going to be put to sleep. I also heard a rumour that previously our cardio professor's dog was terminally ill and he donated him to the lab.

    I hope this answers some of your questions.

  14. 12R34Y

    12R34Y 10+ Year Member

    Apr 5, 2000
    I could never do what MD2005 described above. ever.

    I'm a paramedic. I'm pretty sure I won't pass out in the OR and it won't take me participating in a dog lab to prove that.
  15. md_2005

    md_2005 Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    Nov 26, 2000
    It's ok to dissect and learn from a human body, but not ok with a dog?
  16. Starflyr

    Starflyr Manic Faerie 10+ Year Member

    Apr 11, 2000
    Dickinson, Tx
    The human body is just that --- a BODY. Moreover, its a body of a person who WANTED their body to be used that way. The dog is a living, breathing, feeling being who you are "experimenting" with, without its consent, causing great pain and suffering and ultimately killing. I have a MAJOR issue with that. Someone said that they dont understand how a doctor couldnt do it. I ask, how a doctor CAN do it and still live with him or herself.

  17. md_2005

    md_2005 Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    Nov 26, 2000
    I can understand where you are coming from...

    However, I do not think this is an act of cruelty.

    1. the dogs were going to be killed whether we experimented on them or not.
    2. the dogs were anesthetized.
    3. i think what we gain from the lab is really important as future doctors. what would be more cruel is seeing a doctor operate on a human being for the first time and messing up because he did not have adequate training.

    Maybe if you had the opportunity to witness the lab, you would realize how valuable the lab is.
  18. mcwmark

    mcwmark Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jun 20, 2001
    Our school does have the live dog lab also, and I'd say about 80% of the class participates. It is as was described above, and I thought it was a tremendously educational experience, though I did feel a bit uncomfortable performing experiments on a living dog.

    Those students that felt very uncomfortable, particularly those that have dogs as pets, more often than not chose not to participate.
  19. MSN1

    MSN1 Member 7+ Year Member

    Sep 15, 2001
    So is it better to learn on a dog and make a mistake that could lead to it's death or learn on a person and have the same thing happen. This should be a very easy answer but I am sure there will be people who disagree but you would probobly also have a problem with experimenting on animals to discover new drugs or to at least see if new drugs are safe.
  20. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper 7+ Year Member

    Sep 27, 2001
    I agree. I don't know why one can't learn from concenting humans in the OR. Start small and work your way into the big procedures. Simple as that.

    If we could eat used pigs afterwards (which we can't), I would use them. Otherwise, no way.

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