UMN or WesternU

[Pawdawan]

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Hi everyone,

I feel very thrilled and blessed to say that I have been accepted (still can't believe it!) to two great programs: University of Minnesota and Western University. I was wondering if I could get some advice on which direction I should take...

I'll admit that location does play an important role in my decision. I have lived in Southern California all my life, and I love it here, especially since my entire support system is here, but I am not sure if I can be as successful with Western's PBL program. It is interesting and I could see its benefits, but I just don't know how well I'd do without learning in a traditional classroom setting. With that said, I've always had small dreams of living outside of my comfort zone and experiencing a different city. After visiting the UMN campus, I was very much impressed by the faculty, the campus, and the program. However, I don't honestly know how well I could adjust to living in Minneapolis/St.Paul and being so far away from home.

Since Western is a private institution, and considering I'd be paying OOS tuition at UMN, I believe the costs would end up being about the same for me.. Any thoughts, tips, or advice would be much appreciated.. Thanks!

 

[Jota93]

Sounds to me like you're leaning more towards UMN, but you just don't know how well you might adapt to the change in location. Hopefully someone from UMN can chime in and tell you more about the support systems and all that.

 

[KCgophervet]

I am IS MN so I can't speak from personal experience of moving far away, but note that the class for UMN is roughly 55% IS and 45% OOS. Nearly half of your class will be coming from out of state so you definitely wouldn't be alone in needing to meet new people and create a new support system. Winters here are cold and snowy and kind of long, but you'll be indoors for the most part and really, 4 winters aren't so bad 🙂 If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them.

 

[doe_eyes]

I have a friend who currently attends Minnesota. She grew up in Southern California, however she never applied to Western. She only ever speaks good things about her school and living in Minnesota. She does get homesick sometimes, but I think that is natural and it happens to everyone. I think it helped that she has roommates that are also vet students. All her roommates are not from Minnesota as well, so it really helped all of them in various ways by living with others in the same situation. She also said that she is now getting used to the winters there and that they aren't as bad as people may make them out to be (you will be inside for the most part). I think it really depends on the program for the school. It seems like you are leaning more towards Minnesota since you are hesitant about Western's PBL curriculum. The support system will be there no matter what, both from family (even if you have to Skype, FaceTime, or call) and from new students that will be in the same boat as you in Minnesota (if you end up choosing this school). However, I do think you will end up loving wherever you happen to end up! This is a tough (but good!) decision to make. Congrats on getting accepted to both schools and good luck!! 😉

 

[Vet1234]

I am from Minnesota and I go to vet school in Iowa. So I can't really help in the decision between the two schools. BUT I can provide advice on the winter weather. The winters in MN can be really cold, but it does not not last forever. Also, you will get used to the temp drop because for the most part it is gradual. There are the weird extreme changes, but again it lasts for a couple of days, not months on end. If you decide to attend MN, do not try to buy winter clothes in CA before you come (buy them when you come to MN).

 

[LetItSnow]

I think I would think more strongly about the PBL vs traditional methods. Even though UMN is doing more PBL-type learning than in the past it is still basically a traditional school. That difference is more significant than the weather, in my opinion.

Decide which curriculum you think you would thrive in, and go there. That is my advice, anyway.


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[deleted498041]

I'm a WesternU student, getting ready to finish up my third year in a few months. Figure out cost of living, tuition, etc, and pick the cheapest.

 

[Pawdawan]

I am IS MN so I can't speak from personal experience of moving far away, but note that the class for UMN is roughly 55% IS and 45% OOS. Nearly half of your class will be coming from out of state so you definitely wouldn't be alone in needing to meet new people and create a new support system. Winters here are cold and snowy and kind of long, but you'll be indoors for the most part and really, 4 winters aren't so bad 🙂 If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Oh yeah, I forgot to take that into consideration. Great point!

When I did visit for my interview, I remember walking around the city, and it seemed pretty empty. I wonder if it's because most people are inside trying to stay warm? My interviewers asked me how I was liking Minnesota, and I told them I was enjoying myself, but I was just trying to adjust to the cold. They laughed and told me, "Oh hon, this is definitely not cold. Wait until it hits below zero."

 

[Pawdawan]

I have a friend who currently attends Minnesota. She grew up in Southern California, however she never applied to Western. She only ever speaks good things about her school and living in Minnesota. She does get homesick sometimes, but I think that is natural and it happens to everyone. I think it helped that she has roommates that are also vet students. All her roommates are not from Minnesota as well, so it really helped all of them in various ways by living with others in the same situation. She also said that she is now getting used to the winters there and that they aren't as bad as people may make them out to be (you will be inside for the most part). I think it really depends on the program for the school. It seems like you are leaning more towards Minnesota since you are hesitant about Western's PBL curriculum. The support system will be there no matter what, both from family (even if you have to Skype, FaceTime, or call) and from new students that will be in the same boat as you in Minnesota (if you end up choosing this school). However, I do think you will end up loving wherever you happen to end up! This is a tough (but good!) decision to make. Congrats on getting accepted to both schools and good luck!! 😉

Thank you! I do feel very fortunate and grateful 🙂
I agree, being homesick is only natural, and I know that I will adjust to the changes (like the climate) eventually. UMN's program is quite outstanding, and reminds me a lot of my undergrad, which is probably why I'm very enticed to go. I do think I would be happy at either WesternU or Minnesota, but such a big decision does give me a little bit of anxiety... Thanks again for your input!

 

[Pawdawan]

I'm a WesternU student, getting ready to finish up my third year in a few months. Figure out cost of living, tuition, etc, and pick the cheapest.

Thanks for you input.🙂 I did enjoy my interview day at Western. The students were very down to earth and seemed so happy. Their student panel Q&A was pretty much reflective of that. I haven't done the exact calculations yet of costs, so there may indeed be some significant costs differences, but at a glimpse, both situations seem like it'll end up costing about the same amount. Although.. I've recently seen somewhere on another thread the AVMA report on excessive student debt at particular institutions and WesternU was on that list. 🙁

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/151215c.aspx

How did you personally like Western's PBL curriculum? And what would you say is your favorite thing about going to Western? Ultimately, what made you decide to go to WesternU?

 

[deleted498041]

Thanks for you input.🙂 I did enjoy my interview day at Western. The students were very down to earth and seemed so happy. Their student panel Q&A was pretty much reflective of that. I haven't done the exact calculations yet of costs, so there may indeed be some significant costs differences, but at a glimpse, both situations seem like it'll end up costing about the same amount. Although.. I've recently seen somewhere on another thread the AVMA report on excessive student debt at particular institutions and WesternU was on that list. 🙁

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/151215c.aspx

How did you personally like Western's PBL curriculum? And what would you say is your favorite thing about going to Western? Ultimately, what made you decide to go to WesternU?

Of course we're on that list. We're way too expensive. I'd really like to know where the money goes, but that's neither here nor there.

The PBL curriculum is fine. I got really sick of it by the end of year 2. You learn to figure out what you're supposed to extract from the case and what the testable material is and so you wind up getting frustrated when your groupmates waste 30 minutes of what could be study time talking about B-mode versus M-mode echocardiography or bird migration routes during GI block... At the beginning it was fun and exciting and I think I got out of it what I could and would have gotten out of any other program.

Favourite thing about going to Western? Eh. You're asking this at a bad time when I'm studying for some of the worst exams I'll have in vet school 😉 I guess my favourite thing is the availability of faculty members and the relative ease in which I can take advantage of that. When I was on my SA IM rotation, I had every kind of specialist consult on a case of mine. I emailed, I called, I visited their offices, I had them come to the hospital. I really enjoyed that. I feel like our faculty (for the most part) are exceptionally approachable which speaks volumes for someone like me that isn't the most comfortable bothering someone. I would not hesitate to email any of our faculty members about a difficult case, after graduating. I think I have more solo surgery experience on live animals than my counterparts at other schools but I don't think that's because of Western. That's because I went out and got that experience on my own and was pretty vocal about wanting to do surgery.

What made me decide to go? I can tell you it wasn't cost. I was really dumb when I applied to vet schools and didn't look at cost when I applied... That being said, the schools I got into were all equally expensive because I didn't get into my IS state. I was thoroughly unimpressed by my file review with my IS so I chose not to re-apply and just go to the school I liked the most (as costs were relatively equivalent). While I don't regret my decision, I don't think it was necessarily the wisest. I got into a grad school program that would have had all my tuition paid for and I would have made $40-60k a year just being in the program. I think a smarter decision would have been to complete that Masters and then re-apply as a more competitive applicant with more diverse experience, and get into a cheaper school. I'm only 22 and I was in such a hurry to grow up when I was 19 and got into vet school, and I really should have taken a big breath and relaxed for a moment.

Let me know if you have any more questions, or if I didn't make something clear.

 

[Sheepforever1]

I have a couple thoughts on your situation:
1. Maybe it's time for you to try living in a new environment. I understand staying close to home and where you love, but how will you ever know if there isn't an environment out there that you would also love, unless you give it a shot? I had never lived away from my home state until vet school, and I absolutely love it.

2. If you aren't in love with the PBL curriculum now, then you might hate it later. I'm a very traditional learner (I suppose), and whenever we have PBL type classes, I HATE them. If you're already local, see if there's an opportunity to sit in on a class at Western to try out the style.

 

[DVMDream]

My thoughts:

Make a pros/cons list for each school. Find out everything that you can about each school and draw up a giant (or decent) list of pros/cons. Then you need to decide what types of things are most important to you, personally. So, come up with how much each school will cost for tuition plus living expenses, then come up with other pros/cons... PBL vs lecture-based learning, being closer to home, etc.
Then rank how much each of these means to you and decide from there which school seems like it will be the best fit for you.

If a cost difference between the schools will be a few hundred dollars here or there, that might not be too big of a deal, but once you start getting up into a few thousand to 10,000 in cost difference per year, I think a significant consideration to cost should be a top priority.

You really need to decide which school will be the best fit for you and sometimes the best way to determine that is to really parse out what things are the most important to you and determining which school offers more of those things.

 

[pirateslayme]

Hi!! First year Western student here! I just wanted to give you some insight into western. This is coming from someone who loves it here so obviously this message will be a little biased. But I did want to give you a perspective into the program. So I actually chose western because of the PBL style. For me personally I was getting sick of the traditional didactic style of education. I would often sit in my undergrad classes and passively attempt to absorb the information which wouldn't always work for me. I will say that in PBL you are actively learning which is awesome in my opinion because throughout your career you aren't always going to be sitting in lectures every time you need to learn something but you will be consulting with colleagues and looking up information yourself. This is not to say that the PBL program isn't an adjustment because it is. Some adjust quickly and some take a little longer. It took me about a semester to adjust while some take a block to adjust and other's may take a year. Throughout the adjustment period I did have my doubts about the program but now that I am in my second semester and have found my study groove I realize what an amazing program this is. In my opinion not only does PBL force you to actively seek information but it also helps get you ready for clinics. Every week we have learning issues that we have to research and then present to our group when we meet next. Often when we go over learning issues our facilitator will ask us questions, some easier and some are tougher, that will force us to come to terms with our understanding of the information. In my opinion this is a great way to get ready for clinics since when we are in clinics people will ask us questions and we are expected to know the answer. This does a great job at getting us ready, rather than passively learning in a lecture hall. It also helps us to make connections with the faculty. For instance yesterday me and a few people met with the anatomist in his office to go over some information. In this case there were about 5 people to 1 whereas in a lecture hall you could have a hundred.
Obviously I am bias towards PBL but this does not mean a traditional style isn't good either that is just what works for me and I think it all comes down to how you study best. I do know some people in my program too that miss a traditional education.
I would also think long and hard about the winters in MN. I am a Cali girl too and I know that the weather would be extremely hard for me, but again it all comes down to your tolerance level.
I hope that this helps and good luck with your decision! Also, UMN is a great school too and I know someone there who loves it 🙂

 

[deleted498041]

Hi!! First year Western student here! I just wanted to give you some insight into western. This is coming from someone who loves it here so obviously this message will be a little biased. But I did want to give you a perspective into the program. So I actually chose western because of the PBL style. For me personally I was getting sick of the traditional didactic style of education. I would often sit in my undergrad classes and passively attempt to absorb the information which wouldn't always work for me. I will say that in PBL you are actively learning which is awesome in my opinion because throughout your career you aren't always going to be sitting in lectures every time you need to learn something but you will be consulting with colleagues and looking up information yourself. This is not to say that the PBL program isn't an adjustment because it is. Some adjust quickly and some take a little longer. It took me about a semester to adjust while some take a block to adjust and other's may take a year. Throughout the adjustment period I did have my doubts about the program but now that I am in my second semester and have found my study groove I realize what an amazing program this is. In my opinion not only does PBL force you to actively seek information but it also helps get you ready for clinics. Every week we have learning issues that we have to research and then present to our group when we meet next. Often when we go over learning issues our facilitator will ask us questions, some easier and some are tougher, that will force us to come to terms with our understanding of the information. In my opinion this is a great way to get ready for clinics since when we are in clinics people will ask us questions and we are expected to know the answer. This does a great job at getting us ready, rather than passively learning in a lecture hall. It also helps us to make connections with the faculty. For instance yesterday me and a few people met with the anatomist in his office to go over some information. In this case there were about 5 people to 1 whereas in a lecture hall you could have a hundred.
Obviously I am bias towards PBL but this does not mean a traditional style isn't good either that is just what works for me and I think it all comes down to how you study best. I do know some people in my program too that miss a traditional education.
I would also think long and hard about the winters in MN. I am a Cali girl too and I know that the whether would be extremely hard for me, but again it all comes down to your tolerance level.
I hope that this helps and good luck with your decision! Also, UMN is a great school too and I know someone there who loves it 🙂

You sound like you've had some really great facilitators and you're very lucky. Try not to become as jaded as the rest of us do as time goes on.

 

[pirateslayme]

You sound like you've had some really great facilitators and you're very lucky. Try not to become as jaded as the rest of us do as time goes on.

Yes I have not had a bad group so far and I absolutely love the people in my group and my facilitator this block. I am just holding my breath for the day I get a bad one :/

 

[deleted498041]

Yes I have not had a bad group so far and I absolutely love the people in my group and my facilitator this block. I am just holding my breath for the day I get a bad one :/

It'll happen 😉 My second facilitator was very nice but not good at facilitating. I didn't have a truly awful one until the end of first year and then again the end of second year. That being said, third year is what makes you so cynical -- so enjoy PBL while you can!

 

[LetItSnow]

For instance yesterday me and a few people met with the anatomist in his office to go over some information. In this case there were about 5 people to 1 whereas in a lecture hall you could have a hundred.

I frequently met with instructors in small groups. That isn't something only available in PBL schools.

I am not criticizing your overall comments. I just felt like that one comment implied that at a traditional school your only access to instructors is in lecture. That isn't true. From what I heard of students at other schools. I think faculty tend to be highly available at most schools. Maybe it is more a grad school vs undergrad thing.

 

[Lab Vet]

I frequently met with instructors in small groups. That isn't something only available in PBL schools.

I am not criticizing your overall comments. I just felt like that one comment implied that at a traditional school your only access to instructors is in lecture. That isn't true. From what I heard of students at other schools. I think faculty tend to be highly available at most schools. Maybe it is more a grad school vs undergrad thing.

I've had plenty of individualized instructor support in NCSU's traditional curriculum. NCSU also integrates PBL throughout the first three years, but didactic lecture is the backbone of the curriculum. Whether or not a student receives individualized instruction is a function of student and instructor personality. From my experience, the majority of instructors at my school are more than willing to go above and beyond for a student that seeks assistance. I just wanted to reiterate your point that this 'benefit' isn't something solely available at PBL-based schools.

 

[deleted498041]

I frequently met with instructors in small groups. That isn't something only available in PBL schools.

I am not criticizing your overall comments. I just felt like that one comment implied that at a traditional school your only access to instructors is in lecture. That isn't true. From what I heard of students at other schools. I think faculty tend to be highly available at most schools. Maybe it is more a grad school vs undergrad thing.

I've had plenty of individualized instructor support in NCSU's traditional curriculum. NCSU also integrates PBL throughout the first three years, but didactic lecture is the backbone of the curriculum. Whether or not a student receives individualized instruction is a function of student and instructor personality. From my experience, the majority of instructors at my school are more than willing to go above and beyond for a student that seeks assistance. I just wanted to reiterate your point that this 'benefit' isn't something solely available at PBL-based schools.

Just wanted to include a comment saying that these two are absolutely spot on. There are plenty of people in my class who don't get that individualized time because they don't seek it out. There are tons of us that have never set foot in a faculty member's office. I'm almost done with third year and there are still students uncomfortable with approaching different faculty members. Not to rain on pirateslayme's parade but I think that first year students tend to be absolutely in love with their school and think everything about it is the best thing ever -- which isn't bad! I was that way as well as a first year, just look back at some of my old comments from that time. You just haven't been in school long enough, and neither have your friends at other schools, to know what's good compared to what's bad and what's different compared to what's the same.
I'm a strong believer that what school you go to (within reason) shouldn't matter. What should is how good of a student you are and how dedicated you are.

 

[Lab Vet]

Not to rain on pirateslayme's parade but I think that first year students tend to be absolutely in love with their school and think everything about it is the best thing ever -- which isn't bad! I was that way as well as a first year, just look back at some of my old comments from that time. You just haven't been in school long enough, and neither have your friends at other schools, to know what's good compared to what's bad and what's different compared to what's the same.
I'm a strong believer that what school you go to (within reason) shouldn't matter. What should is how good of a student you are and how dedicated you are.

This is 100% true. I enjoy NCSU, but would never claim that the school is perfect. None of them are. I completely agree with Rwwilliams that school (no matter what level- be that high school, undergrad, or graduate) is what you make it. I know a bunch of faculty members, and feel comfortable communicating with all of them. I sit in the front row, and am a very active lecture participant. This isn't inherently good or bad, it's just my style. The veterinary school that you choose should reflect (to the extent possible) your preferred learning modality. Once you're there, what you get out of it is up to you. I'm not a fan of surgery, so have not sought out the many extramural experiences that are available. Instead, I've focused my energies on experience more closely aligned with my career goals (i.e. working part time at the animal facility). Rwwilliams is right on the mark- no one is going to come to you and hand you opportunities. It's up to you to identify these, and pursue them. All accredited veterinary schools will provide you with an excellent education. In the end, though, it's what you make it.

I must admit my frustration with junior level students claiming the perfection of their particular program. I'm naturally more cynical than that, and don't believe that anything in this world is perfect, including any veterinary school's curriculum. When folks ask me about my program- I tell them the good and the bad, straight up. That's honest, and what I would expect from someone I was interviewing. Not everyone is this way. Instead, they claim sunshine, rainbows, unicorns, and puppy dogs, painting a near perfect picture of what life as a veterinary student will be like. From where I sit, vet school is tough. Sometimes, it's a straight-up drag. I don't enjoy EVERYTHING that I'm learning, and am drawn to some subjects more than others. My interests lie in specialty practice (lab animal medicine), which is often far removed from the concerns of general practice. That doesn't mean I'm not happy, it simply means life isn't perfect- it never will be. By second year, the scales tend to fall from the eyes, and students begin to see veterinary school for what it is. I'm much more apt to put stock in these opinions than I am in a first year student.

 

[pirateslayme]

I frequently met with instructors in small groups. That isn't something only available in PBL schools.

I am not criticizing your overall comments. I just felt like that one comment implied that at a traditional school your only access to instructors is in lecture. That isn't true. From what I heard of students at other schools. I think faculty tend to be highly available at most schools. Maybe it is more a grad school vs undergrad thing.

I 100% agree with you and realize after I wrote it that it may seem like I am judging a traditional program and saying that you can't get individualized time there. That was not my intention at all! I was just saying that for me personally the PBL style makes it easier for me to seek out help from professors...not to imply you can't in a traditional style. I obviously did not make that clear above but just wanted to clarify that point here.
I also wanted to say that Western definitely has its faults and there are frustrations I deal with regularly. Pawdawan if you wanted me to discuss that in detail with you I would be more than happy to if you pm me. I was just looking at PBL as one aspect of the school and saying how much I love that style of teaching. But then again it also depends on the facilitator you have and occasionally I will have a sub facilitator for a day and can tell that their way of facilitating does not work for me.
I also know that I am a first year and may be in the honeymoon phase but like I said I deal with daily frustrations with western. I also live with a second and third year so I get a lot of insight into what those years will be like.
My overall intention was to give pawdawan insight into PBL from someone who is going through it