Unemployed due to SCOTUS

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BLADEMDA

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With the recent SCOTUS ruling, 5-4, upholding the CMS mandate requiring full vaccination, more than a few healthcare providers will soon be fired from their job.

What about those who are denied a religious exemption? I know some of you aren't sympathetic to this cause but do these people truly deserved to be fired?

What about those whose values don't allow them to apply for a religious exemption? I know people who had Delta and Omicron who don't want any jabs. They claim that they have proof of antibodies against Covid. Should they be allowed to keep their jobs? Will they be filing a lawsuit or an appeal based on science?

I have received 3 shots of an mRNA vaccine but still believe the decision about the Covid vaccine is a personal one. Based on science, the spreading of Omicron, which represents 95%+ of all new cases, isn't prevented by vaccination. There is no scientific reason to mandate it any longer; the decision is up to the individual.

Comments? For those of you who believe as I do, that our fellow providers should not be fired, what is the plan for employment?

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With the recent SCOTUS ruling, 5-4, upholding the CMS mandate requiring full vaccination, more than a few healthcare providers will soon be fired from their job.

What about those who are denied a religious exemption? I know some of you aren't sympathetic to this cause but do these people truly deserved to be fired?

What about those whose values don't allow them to apply for a religious exemption? I know people who had Delta and Omicron who don't want any jabs. They claim that they have proof of antibodies against Covid. Should they be allowed to keep their jobs? Will they be filing a lawsuit or an appeal based on science?

I have received 3 shots of an mRNA vaccine but still believe the decision about the Covid vaccine is a personal one. Based on science, the spreading of Omicron, which represents 95%+ of all new cases, isn't prevented by vaccination. There is no scientific reason to mandate it any longer; the decision is up to the individual.

Comments? For those of you who believe as I do, that our fellow providers should not be fired, what is the plan for employment?

Do u think omnicron will be the final variant of covid? And that everything will end up normal again after?
 
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Do u think omnicron will be the final variant of covid? And that everything will end up normal again after?

I am not certain. What I do know is that the vaccine is likely to be ineffective against the spread and exposure to Omicron and other variants. I am all for an annual vaccine against the variants. I am against mandating such a vaccine but SCOTUS, 5-4, seems to disagree with me.
 
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With the recent SCOTUS ruling, 5-4, upholding the CMS mandate requiring full vaccination, more than a few healthcare providers will soon be fired from their job.

What about those who are denied a religious exemption? I know some of you aren't sympathetic to this cause but do these people truly deserved to be fired?

What about those whose values don't allow them to apply for a religious exemption? I know people who had Delta and Omicron who don't want any jabs. They claim that they have proof of antibodies against Covid. Should they be allowed to keep their jobs? Will they be filing a lawsuit or an appeal based on science?

I have received 3 shots of an mRNA vaccine but still believe the decision about the Covid vaccine is a personal one. Based on science, the spreading of Omicron, which represents 95%+ of all new cases, isn't prevented by vaccination. There is no scientific reason to mandate it any longer; the decision is up to the individual.

Comments? For those of you who believe as I do, that our fellow providers should not be fired, what is the plan for employment?
"Deserve?" I think that private companies should be able to make whatever rules they want, as long as they are non-discriminatory based on the categories that the Supreme Court has decided are important.

It's odd to argue that individuals should have "freedom of choice," but private companies should not.
 
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It’s a complicated question with many moving parts. For example, I currently practice in a very southern state with a governor who many label as the next Donald Trump. We have a number of nursing staff in our operating rooms and preop/PACU that I would label as extreme right wing. They routinely interact with patients without their masks on. They tell patients that the vaccine is crap. They spout right wing conspiracy theories.
I would be happy to see these particular idiots go, because their daily behavior is highly unprofessional.

One can talk all they want about how the vaccine does not prevent infection with omicron, but my non-virologist read on things is that the vaccine significantly decreases your risk of dying from something like Delta. Shouldn’t that be enough? Isn’t he data on how well previous viral infection protects you against reinfection just as murky?

I am not religious, and therefore I believe that all of these “religious exemptions“ are just excuses. They certainly are not science-based.
I happily took the vaccines and was one of the first to get a booster that I know. Why? Because I care about others. And if there’s any chance that I could reduce my carriage risk of this deadly virus, then that’s what I will do.

The fact remains is that there are a lot of patients we see in the hospital routinely who simply cannot make antibodies well to this virus even if they have been vaccinated. Providers who are willing to interact with these patients without taking proper protective measures and without being vaccinated don’t deserve my compassion or consideration.

If you have a REAL scientific reason to avoid the vaccine to preserve your own health, and you are willing to wear your N 95 100% of the time at work, I will gladly work beside you as a colleague.
 
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Lost in this discussion is scientific proof of antibodies against covid. Why should a healthcare provider with documented antibodies be forced to take the vaccine? Where is the evidence that such a mandate saves the lives of patients? With Omicron now being rampant the scientific argument for mandating the vaccine is really small if it exists at all. I certainly don't feel the patients are being harmed by providers wearing a surgical mask. In my area, the chance for exposure to Omicron is high at the grocery store or Home Depot because most people don't wear a mask at all.
 
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Lost in this discussion is scientific proof of antibodies against covid. Why should a healthcare provider with documented antibodies be forced to take the vaccine? Where is the evidence that such a mandate saves the lives of patients? With Omicron now being rampant the scientific argument for mandating the vaccine is really small if it exists at all. I certainly don't feel the patients are being harmed by providers wearing a surgical mask. In my area, the chance for exposure to Omicron is high at the grocery store or Home Depot because most people don't wear a mask at all.
Blade, this isn’t just about Omicron.
And quite frankly, I don’t work at the Home Depot either.
 
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These numbers will likely triple over the next 30-60 days as more providers get terminated.
 
The Supreme Court ruling covered two dozen states that had been the subject of federal injunctions that prohibited the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services from imposing a mandate. About 10 million workers at approximately 76,000 health care facilities, including hospitals and long-term care facilities, are affected by the requirement.

In Florida, Gov. Ron DeSantis called the new federal policy “insane” at a news conference on Thursday. The state’s Agency for Health Care Administration also indicated it would not survey health care facilities about compliance of the vaccine mandate. On Friday, Mr. DeSantis reiterated his position, posting on Twitter that Florida will reject federal mandates, “which are rooted in political, not medical science.”

Still, federal laws ordinarily displace, or “pre-empt,” contrary state and local ones, and in allowing the mandate for health care workers, the Supreme Court at least implicitly ruled that it overrode state laws banning vaccination requirements at facilities participating in the Medicaid and Medicare programs.

The specter of potentially losing federal funding if they do not comply has already persuaded some hospital chains to require vaccinations for workers who did not qualify for a medical or religious exemption.

 
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“On Friday, Mr. DeSantis reiterated his position, posting on Twitter that Florida will reject federal mandates, “which are rooted in political, not medical science.”

It is so ironic that DeSantis would say this, because I would argue that the truth is the exact opposite of what he said.
 
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the White House promised in a statement Thursday to enforce the rule. That could spell trouble for facilities that don’t abide by it. If facilities are not able to report that 100 percent of their employees have gotten at least a first dose of the vaccine or an exemption by Jan. 27, the federal government will begin issuing warnings. Eventually, if the facility does not comply with the rule, it could lose funding.

“Termination would generally occur only after providing a facility with an opportunity to make corrections and come into compliance,” two officials from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services wrote in a Dec. 28 memo.
 
Lost in this discussion is scientific proof of antibodies against covid. Why should a healthcare provider with documented antibodies be forced to take the vaccine? Where is the evidence that such a mandate saves the lives of patients? With Omicron now being rampant the scientific argument for mandating the vaccine is really small if it exists at all. I certainly don't feel the patients are being harmed by providers wearing a surgical mask. In my area, the chance for exposure to Omicron is high at the grocery store or Home Depot because most people don't wear a mask at all.
Do you still work in a hospital, or did you retire 5 years ago and not tell anyone? Any of us can look at our hospital dashboards and see that 80-90+% of patients in the ICU and on ventilators are not vaccinated. Unless you think 90% of the people in my area are not vaccinated, then that alone tells you everything you need to know about the efficacy of the vaccine at preventing serious illness or death.

Should the government be able to force you to take the vaccine? Debatable, though the government certainly has stepped in for less in the name of public health.

Should a private company that specializes in the treatment and prevention of medical diseases be able to force you take a vaccine that decreases the risk of serious illness and death? Yes.

Besides, if it's such a terrible idea, shouldn't the "free market" sort it out anyway? If someone wants to create, run, and advertise a mask-free, no vaccine hospital system, and see if it outcompetes the competition, they should go for it.
 
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. There is no scientific reason to mandate it any longer;
Yes there is. Boosting is somewhere around 70-75% effective at preventing symptomatic infection with omicron. Which is obviously key when the trigger for a HCW to get tested and then miss work (and thus exacerbate the labor shortages).....is symptomatic infection. Also, it's likely that if you're boosted and not getting significantly symptomatic, you're clearing the viral load faster as well which reduces transmission.

And on a personal note I'm not shedding any tears for any HCW getting fired over this because these were the same people refusing vaccination during the hell that was delta....when vaccination really, really mattered.
 
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What about those who are denied a religious exemption? I know some of you aren't sympathetic to this cause but do these people truly deserved to be fired?

Yes, they deserve to be fired. They should also be denied Tylenol to treat their fever once they contract the virus, because you know… stem cells and religion.
 
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It’s hard to rationalize a vaccine mandate for HCWs when your state health department says you can go to work during the most infectious asymptomatic phase of active Covid infection.



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It’s a complicated question with many moving parts. For example, I currently practice in a very southern state with a governor who many label as the next Donald Trump. We have a number of nursing staff in our operating rooms and preop/PACU that I would label as extreme right wing. They routinely interact with patients without their masks on. They tell patients that the vaccine is crap. They spout right wing conspiracy theories.
I would be happy to see these particular idiots go, because their daily behavior is highly unprofessional.

One can talk all they want about how the vaccine does not prevent infection with omicron, but my non-virologist read on things is that the vaccine significantly decreases your risk of dying from something like Delta. Shouldn’t that be enough? Isn’t he data on how well previous viral infection protects you against reinfection just as murky?

I am not religious, and therefore I believe that all of these “religious exemptions“ are just excuses. They certainly are not science-based.
I happily took the vaccines and was one of the first to get a booster that I know. Why? Because I care about others. And if there’s any chance that I could reduce my carriage risk of this deadly virus, then that’s what I will do.

The fact remains is that there are a lot of patients we see in the hospital routinely who simply cannot make antibodies well to this virus even if they have been vaccinated. Providers who are willing to interact with these patients without taking proper protective measures and without being vaccinated don’t deserve my compassion or consideration.

If you have a REAL scientific reason to avoid the vaccine to preserve your own health, and you are willing to wear your N 95 100% of the time at work, I will gladly work beside you as a colleague.


It’s funny because all the right wing, Trump supporting, Foxnews lovers I know at work were the first ones in line to get vaxxed and boosted. It’s the same way Ron Desantis won’t say whether he’s vaccinated or not. He’ll get fewer idiots to vote for him in the next election if he admits he’s vaxxed and boosted.
 
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And the pope who is the head of the largest child molestation/right to life organization on the planet says getting vaxxed is a moral obligation and an act of love.


 
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Vaccine mandates for healthcare workers are not about protecting the workers from their own stupidity, but rather the sick and vulnerable from their stupidity.
 
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I actually lost my vaccine card. I think I remember flicking it into the backseat of the car onto a stack of paperwork but I haven't seen it since. Wonder if I'll get sacked.
 
I actually lost my vaccine card. I think I remember flicking it into the backseat of the car onto a stack of paperwork but I haven't seen it since. Wonder if I'll get sacked.


You didn’t scan it to your phone?
 
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I think if you are incapable of understanding basic science and don't believe in the value of vaccines you should not be working in health care.
 
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I actually lost my vaccine card. I think I remember flicking it into the backseat of the car onto a stack of paperwork but I haven't seen it since. Wonder if I'll get sacked.

Where did u get your shots? They should have
A record and can make a new vaccine card for u
 
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Saw this quote…. Thought it summed how I feel very well.

"They're arguing it's their individual right to harm others."
 
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Thread title is misleading, unemployment would result from a person’s own actions not scotus. You could have just as easily written Unemployed due to the FAA and bemoaned how the faa has ruled that alcohol intoxication is disallowed when flying an aircraft and it has resulted in the unemployment of alcoholic pilots.
 
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Thread title is misleading, unemployment would result from a person’s own actions not scotus. You could have just as easily written Unemployed due to the FAA and bemoaned how the faa has ruled that alcohol intoxication is disallowed when flying an aircraft and it has resulted in the unemployment of alcoholic pilots.
That is an absurd analogy. No one is arguing for practicing while compromised.

FFS.
 
I actually lost my vaccine card. I think I remember flicking it into the backseat of the car onto a stack of paperwork but I haven't seen it since. Wonder if I'll get sacked.

I sent in a picture of my vaccine card and it got rejected for being insufficient evidence of being boosted. Not sure what they want. I'm sick of all this never ending boosting vaccine mandate hysteria.
 
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That is an absurd analogy. No one is arguing for practicing while compromised.

FFS.
The cognitive delusion that vaccines are unsafe is a sign of compromise. Maybe not a great one but if the pilot has a bac of 0.02 they are still banned from flying too right?
 
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I sent in a picture of my vaccine card and it got rejected for being insufficient evidence of being boosted. Not sure what they want. I'm sick of all this never ending boosting vaccine mandate hysteria.
Send them your insta selfie with the frame about being vaccinated maybe?
 
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Saw this quote…. Thought it summed how I feel very well.

"They're arguing it's their individual right to harm others."
The right to keep and bear viruses shall not be infringed.
 
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The cognitive delusion that vaccines are unsafe is a sign of compromise. Maybe not a great one but if the pilot has a bac of 0.02 they are still banned from flying too right?
Are you referring to the booster mandate, or hospital staff being asked to return to work after 5 days with or without symptoms?
 
With the recent SCOTUS ruling, 5-4, upholding the CMS mandate requiring full vaccination, more than a few healthcare providers will soon be fired from their job.

What about those who are denied a religious exemption? I know some of you aren't sympathetic to this cause but do these people truly deserved to be fired?

What about those whose values don't allow them to apply for a religious exemption? I know people who had Delta and Omicron who don't want any jabs. They claim that they have proof of antibodies against Covid. Should they be allowed to keep their jobs? Will they be filing a lawsuit or an appeal based on science?

I have received 3 shots of an mRNA vaccine but still believe the decision about the Covid vaccine is a personal one. Based on science, the spreading of Omicron, which represents 95%+ of all new cases, isn't prevented by vaccination. There is no scientific reason to mandate it any longer; the decision is up to the individual.

Comments? For those of you who believe as I do, that our fellow providers should not be fired, what is the plan for employment?
What religions prevent people from getting vaccinations?

If you're going to answer ""Christian Science", here's an FYI:
 
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Arrested, tried, and convicted due SCOTUS not finding laws against murder, theft, arson, sedition, etc unconstitutional.

The MAGA hats seem to have their hopes and dreams pinned to one day there being an end to the pandemic through acquisition of natural immunity. That day is not today.
 
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MAGA folks will blame Biden for not having the virus under control.
 
What is the thread title referring to?
You brought up flying or practicing impaired, which poses an immediate danger to those around you. Working while actively infected presents far more danger than simply foregoing a booster.
We were exposed to Covid for a year before the vaccines were released, some of the time with limited PPE. And yet there was little talk of the danger any providers presented to their patients. But now you’re likening it to flying drunk. It’s just silly.
Regardless of your analysis on the risks and benefits of continued boosters, the fact that a federal entity under the direction of an executive order can directly affect your ability to earn a living should concern you.
 
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You brought up flying or practicing impaired, which poses an immediate danger to those around you. Working while actively infected presents far more danger than simply foregoing a booster.
We were exposed to Covid for a year before the vaccines were released, some of the time with limited PPE. And yet there was little talk of the danger any providers presented to their patients. But now you’re likening it to flying drunk. It’s just silly.
Regardless of your analysis on the risks and benefits of continued boosters, the fact that a federal entity under the direction of an executive order can directly affect your ability to earn a living should concern you.
Do you think flying with a bac of 0.02 really impairs a pilot? The fact that a federal entity under the direction of executive order can directly affect the pilots’ personal freedom to drink alcohol and earn a living should concern you.

In all seriousness this has no effect on me because I am not a ****ing ******* who won’t get vaccinated or boosted. The same way laws about wearing a seatbelt, having car insurance, and obeying stop signs don’t impact my ability to drive. I know OAN has you worried that the president is going to order you to do all sorts of things against your will now that the Supreme Court told him it is ok to mandate whatever he wants for healthcare workers, but in The real world this was not only the right and logical decision but one that really is consequence free. People who lose their jobs over this need to get out of healthcare and go practice crystal science or vitamin pushing and get away from people who actually need help.
 
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We were exposed to Covid for a year before the vaccines were released, some of the time with limited PPE. And yet there was little talk of the danger any providers presented to their patients.
What planet were you living on? Not only were a bunch of docs and nurses I work with afraid of infecting patients (and vice versa), they were also afraid of bringing it home and infecting their family and friends.
 
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What planet were you living on? Not only were a bunch of docs and nurses I work with afraid of infecting patients (and vice versa), they were also afraid of bringing it home and infecting their family and friends.
Of course we were mindful of it. But there was not the narrative that we were dangerous to our patients like we have heard since this mandate issue arose.
And it’s even more ridiculous because in May we were told the disease stops with the vaccine because it prevented 95% of transmission. Now it’s widely accepted that those with the vaccine (and booster) can get Covid and transmit it as well. It likely lessens severity, but protection of those around us comes from being mindful of our behaviors rather than vaccine status.
Again, there is more acute risk to patients having providers being asked to return to work after 5 days with known disease. But no one seems to bat an eye because the CDC changed its stance two days after Christmas.
I am not anti-vax by any means. I support those who want to get it, and I am hopeful that all of this will be over soon.
 
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So, a healthcare provider with proof of antobodies to Covid 19 and who has been sick with Delta as well as Omicron should be fired from their job? On what scientific basis should this person lose their job? SCOTUS rules 5-4 so the CMS mandate is in effect. If they had ruled 5-4 in the opposite way I seriously doubt any of you hardcore liberals would be agreeing with that verdict. There is no basis for forcing this vaccine on anyone against their will as Omicron is just as much a threat to every person. While I don't agree with a person's decision to not get vaccinated I believe that choice is their right.

The courts still need to rule on the those healthcare workers who get fired over this CMS mandate. I wouldn't bet against a conservative court ruling in favor of healthcare workers who can prove immunity to Covid 19 and documented evidence of infection. Those cases are coming and hospitals along with CMS could lose millions in lawsuits.
 
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One prominent surgeon quit at the hospital down the road over this. Well, he was fired.
I don’t understand his motivation. But I hope he enjoys early retirement.
I can imagine his attorney saying to let them fire him instead of resigning and maybe in a couple years he can sue for lost wages and damage to his reputation. Best case he gets a mountain house to go with his beach house, worst case he retired early like he apparently wanted to.
 
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Arkansas Bill Creates Antibody Exemption for Vaccine Mandate​


Legal Response:

 
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Why does “it’s a personal choice” equate to “I should be free from all consequences”?
My four year old (sometimes) understands her actions have consequences. Your choice to not get vaccinated cause the some deity told you not to absolutely should have consequences.
This isn’t new. I had to send in my vaccine history to my undergrad and med school and before residency and to my most recent job.
 
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So, a healthcare provider with proof of antobodies to Covid 19 and who has been sick with Delta as well as Omicron should be fired from their job? On what scientific basis should this person lose their job? SCOTUS rules 5-4 so the CMS mandate is in effect. If they had ruled 5-4 in the opposite way I seriously doubt any of you hardcore liberals would be agreeing with that verdict. There is no basis for forcing this vaccine on anyone against their will as Omicron is just as much a threat to every person. While I don't agree with a person's decision to not get vaccinated I believe that choice is their right.

The courts still need to rule on the those healthcare workers who get fired over this CMS mandate. I wouldn't bet against a conservative court ruling in favor of healthcare workers who can prove immunity to Covid 19 and documented evidence of infection. Those cases are coming and hospitals along with CMS could lose millions in lawsuits.

How often should they be tested to ensure antibodies? What happens when they no longer have them and still don’t want vaccination? Who pays for all the testing?
 
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Issa said that scientific research has shown that individuals previously infected with the virus “have suitable and substantial protection” if they recover.
 
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How often should they be tested to ensure antibodies? What happens when they no longer have them and still don’t want vaccination? Who pays for all the testing?
At my shop all you have to do is a "little white lie" on the religious exemption form and it is ALWAYS granted. The hypocrisy of allowing providers with NO PROTECTION against Covid to keep their jobs while firing those providers who have documented proof of infection/antibodies makes no scientific sense whatsoever. That is the price for living in a free society.

The "scammers" just lie on the form while those with conviction get fired.
 
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I have had no vaccinations ever (COVID or otherwise) as there is no scientific basis. I do however feel that there should in fact be a mandate for vaccinations as there is no also scientific basis for not being vaccinated. The supreme court's ruling is demonstrative of the lack of scientific basis. Even Donald Trump agrees with me, and he was one of the most agreeable, actually. Executive orders, although without scientific basis, just as vaccines have no scientific basis, are rivaling therapeutics.
 
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I have had no vaccinations ever (COVID or otherwise) as there is no scientific basis. I do however feel that there should in fact be a mandate for vaccinations as there is no also scientific basis for not being vaccinated. The supreme court's ruling is demonstrative of the lack of scientific basis. Even Donald Trump agrees with me, and he was one of the most agreeable, actually. Executive orders, although without scientific basis, just as vaccines have no scientific basis, are rivaling therapeutics.
I don’t understand anything you said …. Possibly because you contradicted yourself in the first two sentences ….
 
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No basis for scientific climate evidence when talking to POTUS. Personal choice on carbon emissions according to senate minority leader McConnell. Liberal vaccine mandate right to life. CNN.
 
Why does “it’s a personal choice” equate to “I should be free from all consequences”?
My four year old (sometimes) understands her actions have consequences. Your choice to not get vaccinated cause the some deity told you not to absolutely should have consequences.
This isn’t new. I had to send in my vaccine history to my undergrad and med school and before residency and to my most recent job.


Right. I’ve had to send proof of flu vax to my medical staff office for more than the past 10 years.
 
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