Unfilled programs

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You looking at me, kid? ;)

Connections are human - and like anything else human, they don't always work the way one would like.

They don't for instance cross borders - nor did I expect them to.

Yet somewhere out there, there is a program who liked how I looked on paper enough to interview me, and liked me enough at the interview to take me. I haven't the faintest idea why. Maybe I earned it. Had I gone unMatched, I probably would've said I earned that too.
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Pookies said:
I think the Utah 1 0 1 and the Wash U 1 0 1 were CP only spots. They were probably looking for someone specific.
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According to previous conversation, CP only was the way to go... so much for that!
 
deschutes said:
You looking at me, kid? ;)

Connections are human - and like anything else human, they don't always work the way one would like.

They don't for instance cross borders - nor did I expect them to.

Yet somewhere out there, there is a program who liked how I looked on paper enough to interview me, and liked me enough at the interview to take me. I haven't the faintest idea why. Maybe I earned it. Had I gone unMatched, I probably would've said I earned that too.
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Hogwash! Some IMG in the program where you matched saw you were foreign and did everything possible to help you out. How else can you explain AMGs not matching? :rolleyes:
 
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geddy said:
Hogwash! Some IMG in the program where you matched saw you were foreign and did everything possible to help you out. How else can you explain AMGs not matching? :rolleyes:
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I have trouble remembering my grocery list and you want me to explain game theory? :p
 
I have been a lurker on this forum for a pretty long time....(see "member since" data)...

I think it's time I speak out for the FMG's lurking here.

Unfortunately, "Thrombus" seems to be a bit disappointed at the FMG's taking the AMG's spots, and I'm sorry that he feels this way. Let me explain my situation....

I am canadian (like deschutes), but did med school in both eastern europe and the caribbean...so experience is vast, especially in pathology. I may not have a masters, or a gazillion papers published (none, to be exact), but I have a passion for pathology, which is genuine.

I don't know how to explain to you, but you cannot say that all FMG's are bad and stealing spots and not paying taxes etc.....Both my parents work here in the US, night and day, and pay a ton of $$ to George Bush every year...

Most FMG's have applied to 50+ programs (100+ in IM)...I myself applied to 76 programs. It cost my parents a pretty penny (I have never worked in my life)...but I didn't have a choice. Having 2 negatives on my application wasn't something that could be overlooked; needing a visa and studying in the caribbean. How many interviews did I get? 4. That's right 4, only one which was worth mentioning. More rejections than interviews thats for sure.
I couldn't even apply to UNM (where I am living now) because they don't sponsor visas.

I've worked with many FMG's in the East Coast in Internal Medicine who can easily put to shame many AMG's with the amount of knowledge that they know.

I am thankful that I have matched in Pathology. Please don't look down on us unless we give you reason to do so. It's not our fault our home countries have inadequate training opportunities for all it's applicants. I want to be a physician and if the US will give me the opportunity to train here, why should I not take advantage of that opportunity? AMG's will always be given top priority, but if there a FMG who can prove that he is better, why shouldn't we give them a chance?

Peace to all, good luck on thursday. :)

A.
 
There are endless opinions that could be exchanged on the issue of the FMG in the US. I would bring nothing new.

There will be always be dissenters - life would be incredibly boring otherwise.

It is not hard to understand why an AMG watching his classmates struggle in the Scramble would be incensed, nor is it difficult to understand why an IMG who finally matched after trying for years would be relieved.

"AMG" and "IMG" are but nominable designations. We can let these letters rule our lives, or we can recognize enough of ourselves in the other to make no matter of our differences.

For the record I am in Canada, but not Canadian. My convoluted story is buried somewhere in the depths of the Path forum, if anyone is all that curious. Otherwise you can just meet me at USCAP next year!
 
bananaface said:
If choice 2 has an open spot, you prob matched to your #1. ;)
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or if choice 1 has an open spot, that means that the program exhausted their rank list. if the applicant ranked the program #1 and was anywhere on the program's rank list, we got a match!
 
ok, my number#1 went filled, and my number #2 has two spots unfilled. so am i to assume that i matched at either 1 or 2? I hope so!
Or, of course, maybe neither of them ranked me :(
 
Thrombus said:
So you made my point for me.

First you claim that "striving for excellence" is the name of the game, then admit that a connection also helped

Personally, for me, a connection will put me in one of my top choices

For those that have no such connection, as some of my friends with excellent numbers -- far better than mine -- yet did not match, it was inherently UNFAIR.
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Residency is not like getting into medical school. It also has the elements of applying for a real job.

Please get used to this aspect of your life. From here on, connections, i.e people that can make phone on your behalf, known work ethic will get you the fellowships, the jobs etc.

Every jackass and their grandmother can pump up a CV with memberships, abstracts, and papers. Places receive hundreds of CV's for job posting, fellowship opportunities etc.

From here on its 80% connections and 20 % "being at the right place at the right time."

People take the word of an established trusted colleague (in the field) over other factors at our level of training.
 
Thrombus, you are a real douchebag. You're b*tchy little comment to Pathone (a very helpful poster) on one of the other threads and your comments here are unbelievable. I really hope you have been drinking tonight and aren't really this big of a prick. If you keep it up, you might supplant SOCALRULES! as the biggest choad on these boards.
 
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stormjen said:
o Beautiful For Spacious Skies,
For Amber Waves Of Grain,
For Purple Mountain Majesties
Above The Fruited Plain!
America! America!
God Shed His Grace On Thee
And Crown Thy Good With Brotherhood
From Sea To Shining Sea!​
Click to expand...

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
​
 
yaah said:
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
​
Click to expand...

Break out the smallpox-infested blankets!
 
*SNIFF* That song always gets me right here. Why don't we have an animated emoticon of someone crying? *SNIFF* Don't look at me!
 
Geddy, do you ever wonder what would happen if the guy in your avatar (The end is near!) ever met up with the guy with the "Prepare to meet thy doom" sign? Would they ignore each other? Fight to the death?
 
yaah said:
Geddy, do you ever wonder what would happen if the guy in your avatar (The end is near!) ever met up with the guy with the "Prepare to meet thy doom" sign? Would they ignore each other? Fight to the death?
Click to expand...
Probably give each other the secret handshake. Although, I'll bet if you offered each of them some vodka and $20, they'd fight each other.
 
CameronFrye said:
Thrombus, you are a real douchebag. You're b*tchy little comment to Pathone (a very helpful poster) on one of the other threads and your comments here are unbelievable. I really hope you have been drinking tonight and aren't really this big of a prick. If you keep it up, you might supplant SOCALRULES! as the biggest choad on these boards.
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Get lost dude

I got classmates that got screwed in the match who had superb qualifications

I stick up for my fellow countrymen who get hosed by the system, which is not based on true competition by any means

If you have a disdain for loyalty, then continue to criticize

Obviously you are a foreigner, and have little understanding to how some Americans relate, which is all part of my point anyway

We do not all sit around like a bunch of Euros and have tea at high noon together

You sit there on your high horse and throw names around, all the while telling someone else that they are an dingus because they are blunt and to the point

Ironic, isn't it
 
The topic of IMG's competing with AMG's can obviously engender some strong emotions in people. I can understand Thrombus wanting to support his classmates, but complaining anymore about it here probably isn't going to do any good. Since the conversation has degenerated into namecalling now, how about we put the topic aside? If folks want to talk about it anymore, perhaps the general residency forum would be a better venue for it.
 
Yes. An excellent idea. xenophobia and an inherent call for filling residencies based on quotas rather than qualifications is better discussed elsewhere on SDN, if at all. :)
 
Qualifications == ability to communicate, relate, probability to stay in one's own country, etc. etc.

Qualifications as far as numbers? Most of my mates have better numbers than norm

How did they not get a spot then? God only knows.

As stated, case closed from my end

Just don't get into the "qualifications" thing -- because

1. Numbers dont always get you in
2. Asskissing does not correlate in any way with how qualified one is
3. Medical school and "success" therein has little to do with how good a doctor one would make -- your secretarial skills are tested more than your reasoning/decision making/personal skills....you are hardly evaluated at all on the latter....you are evaluated on your ability to kiss ass, be a "yes man", and follow rather than lead....none of which has much at all to do with being a physician
 
Sorry, but the logic of your arguments completely escapes me.
I am asuming that you're referring to the current match cycle. So:

1. How do you know that your friends lost out to IMG's?
2. How do you know that your friends have competitive numbers compared to other applicants for the same positions?
3. Unlike you, I think it's fairly safe to say that most PD's not only look at citizenship and locality of medical schools.
4. The vast majority of US grads have considerably better chances of doing "asskissing" than IMG's, as they complete all of their clinical rotations in US hospitals.
5. I have never heard of PD's testing "secretarial skills". How good a doctor you'll eventually be is based on your aptitude, your skills, your training, your dedication and your experience. PD's look at past performance and predicted future ability. Is that prediction perfect? Certainly not. That's also why you can have people training at Podunk Medical Center who rise to the top of their field.

I do, however completely agree with your statement that "numbers don't always get you in". Thankfully, PD's don't look at numbers alone. They're interested in "how good a doctor one would make", and generally make judgements based on that - though sometimes those judgements are obviously wrong.

With 23,000 residency spots and 16,000 AMG's, you and your friends should be happy that there's IMG's to fill the remaining spots. And take comfort in the fact that the odds are heavily stacked in favor of the AMG's.

Sorry to say so, but your friends probably lost out simply because there was stronger AMG and IMG applicants out there. Some with better numbers, some with better connections, some whom the PD simply liked better, and probably a lot with a generally stronger background and better ability to project the promise of becoming a "good doctor".
 
PathOne said:
Yes. An excellent idea. xenophobia and an inherent call for filling residencies based on quotas rather than qualifications is better discussed elsewhere on SDN, if at all. :)
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This whole discussion has been beat to ****in' death on the other forums. It's kind of like the DO vs. MD bitchfest that goes on. These arguments are so ****ing stupid. What, you're gonna change the world by arguing on some stupid internet forum? I mean c'mon...people need to get over themselves.

arguingOnTheInternet.jpg
 
Amen!
 
Thrombus said:
well i am tired of being a peon

i got buddies who sweated for 4 years only to take it up the you-know-what and have their dreams setback after putting up successful numbers

we have a doctor shortage in this country and we are educating foreigners paying over these fine young soon to be physicians and its complete BS

I am personally tired of all this garbage and plan on doing whatever i can throughout my career to end this nonsense
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Congratulations, Thrombus! You've made a total ass out of yourself publicly!
 
SLUsagar said:
question: on the list of unfilled spots for residency:
http://www.valuemd.com/medschool/usmleforum.php?url=http://www.imgresidency.com/thelist.htm

when spots fill are they actually updated on the list?? i mean i know it mentions something about that, but i've been checking on the PATH unfilled spots and it seems hardly any have yet to be filled still...
Click to expand...

That list you just posted was never updated....it reads "This list was created on 03/15/2005 11:55:01" .........the nrmp site gives the unfilled list that is updated every hour but you must be a scrambler to have access to it.
 
Harbster said:
Congratulations, Thrombus! You've made a total ass out of yourself publicly!
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naw i just dont spew out politically correct BS like you are used to hearing

i would say scores in the 230's with good grades and letters should get one a spot

if not, then why even go to medical school, put 4 years of time in only to be screwed into some prelim position so that you can get ****ed even more

sorry to rain on your parade if you are not from our country, but our citizenry prefers doctors who can relate and communicate well...and also needs folks who are likely to stay here

and our soon-to-be-physicians are not slots that they shoudl for one reason or another that has little to nothing to do with merit as explained ad nauseam

funny how the same pukes who disparage our country are the ones who want to be here...not saying any of you disparage our country specifically, but in the last few years quite a few of us Americans are fed up with it, and their seems to be no pre-American sentiment holding it at bay in foreign lands
 
Thrombus said:
naw i just dont spew out politically correct BS like you are used to hearing

i would say scores in the 230's with good grades and letters should get one a spot

if not, then why even go to medical school, put 4 years of time in only to be screwed into some prelim position so that you can get ****ed even more

sorry to rain on your parade if you are not from our country, but our citizenry prefers doctors who can relate and communicate well...and also needs folks who are likely to stay here

and our soon-to-be-physicians are not slots that they shoudl for one reason or another that has little to nothing to do with merit as explained ad nauseam

funny how the same pukes who disparage our country are the ones who want to be here...not saying any of you disparage our country specifically, but in the last few years quite a few of us Americans are fed up with it, and their seems to be no pre-American sentiment holding it at bay in foreign lands
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Maybe your friends just didn't rank the right programs - "competitive" has really little general meaning. Competitive at which programs, with how many spots?

But I digress... Thrombus, your username seems well chosen. Hopefully, the interventional radiologists can open that thing back up before it leaves you permanently paralyzed as well as nonsensical. Unless of course, the rad is an IMG...
 
thrombus, you really are a total clot. :laugh:
 
Hmmm... Interesting....Let me add my wisdom (If I got any)

I will add that communication skills are BY FAR your most important attribute in Pathology, that known, IMGs are often not up to snuff in this category and it can (and I have seen it) bring down a whole department. The problem is, aside from a short interview, there is no real good way to assess that without spending time with them. Also consider some AMGs have communication issues of a non-ESL type as well so this pertains to both.

Overall Pathology really suffered from a loss of comradarie with other medical specialities when IMGs flooded the scene some years back. IMGs tend to be older with families, less social if I can stereotype in gentle way. It spelled the end of Path getting invited to Rads parties, Ortho happy hours and Med Onc holidays mixers. That may sound lame to you, but honestly that hurts the field in a real but intangible way.

Then there is a real business issue. IMGs often didnt pay for their medical education or paid some nominal rate. Many AMGs though are burden with outrageous debt from a truly ebil and vampiric academic oligarchy. AMGs have to get into reasonably well paying jobs because they literally need to make more than 30-50K extra pretax to live at the same standard of living as an IMGs. Is that fair? Of course not. But who's to blame? Certainly, scapegoating IMGs makes no sense. Moving on...

Then there are the Path PDs, many of which are simply running tradeskill sweatshops with fancy latin mottos thrown on to hide em, they want people who will shut up, work long hours and not complain. Which again to stereotype, are the IMGs.

Lots of stuff complicate this disscussion things like should minority status be taken into account? Veteran status? Research? Where an applicant grew up/community connections? I think all those are important.
 
230's scores can't even get you in the door at competitive rads programs, let alone ANY derm program. Djeez.

I think you need treatment for that xenophobia of yours. I guess that, according to your logic, English-language only AMG's shouldn't be able to get residencies in So. Cal, where most people by now speak spanish. But maybe hispanics with a US passport isn't blue-blooded americans in your book either? Perhaps only people of American Indian descent should be allowed to become docs, as they're the only REAL non-immigrant Americans.

I find it amazing that a AMG such as yourself, after eight years in a university, not only have so narrow-minded viewpoints, but also so much trouble communicating them in an intelligent and non-abrasive manner.

However, I have no illusions. I fully expect a barrage of name-calling and obscenities from you. Go ahead. Isn't going to ruin my day, and might make you feel more self-righteous than you feel already.
 
I opened this page expecting an enthusiastic gossip-fest about path programs. Boy, was I wrong. Yo, it's time to kill this thread before it kills us. Friends don't let friends participate in internet flame wars. Or go into academics.
 
Thrombus said:
I think its funny how some of these places have to scramble when a couple of them rejected me too.

I also think its BS that we can't find out where we matched and at least have a chance to scramble into a place where we would rather be but for some reason were not offered an interview.

Also some of my friends didn't match and I think its BS that foreigners get spots over them. Most of it is because their nationals have penetrated academics.

Highly qualifed US applicants are getting shafted and US taxpayer dollars are funding education of foreign doctors instead of them.

Complete BS
Click to expand...

I think if you feel this way and strongly, the most appropriate thing to do would be to draft an atriculate letter to the Governor's offices of New Mexico, Tennesse and Arkansas (for example), your elected Representatives and the Deans of those medical schools where you know IMGs matched but you did not receive an interview. Be professional, explain your reasoning, cite examples, home countries and match it with nationality of the faculty on the staff at those hospitals. Then send a copy to local newspapers with a short opinion note. Also send copies to the head of the AMA.

In conclusion there is no need to morph into a right wing Ak47 toting nut because you didnt get your top choice, were rejected or didnt match at all.
We live in a democracy bro, use it.

E.g.
Governor Bill Richardson
Office of the Governor
490 Old Santa Fe Trail
Room 400
Santa Fe, NM 87501
http://www.governor.state.nm.us/emailchoice.php?mm=6
 
Thrombus said:
Obviously you are a foreigner, and have little understanding to how some Americans relate, which is all part of my point anyway
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Actually, I'm a redneck from the backwoods of Virginia. I'm just not afraid of a little competition. These programs want the best applicants and I think that's the way it should be. If some IMG is better than me, so be it (and in general, an IMG must be much better than an AMG to "steal" a spot).

Maybe your friends who didn't match have the same barrel of sunshine personality as you and the PDs saw it. Or maybe they were too cocky to rank "inferior" programs. As for you comment about 230's on step 1, my class' average on Step 1 was right at 230, so that and 50 cents will get you a bag of chips.

Anyway, you're really bringing down the positive vibe of the path forum. Time to get back on topic: POO
 
Thrombus said:
naw i just dont spew out politically correct BS like you are used to hearing
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LMW heparin 70mg SC -STAT-
 
CameronFrye said:
These programs want the best applicants and I think that's the way it should be. If some IMG is better than me, so be it (and in general, an IMG must be much better than an AMG to "steal" a spot): POO
Click to expand...

I hope you realize that statement is meaningless as there is no way to compare who is potentially a better pathologist. If I could do that I would be hitting the stock market. No one knows, there is NO statistical marker with any correlation to success in pathology that has any validity. Honestly, you could almost just pick people out of a hat and come out with comparably trained people.

And...I cant believe people are throwing around crazy board scores, like my school had a 230 average?! WTF? Did they change how the test was scored?? A 200-205 used to be near the 50th percentile. I know for a fact, that UCSD in their first year as a medical school had the highest board average in the nation, and it was in the 220s.

Also, how the hell can you compare an IMGs grades to an AMGs one to know that the IMG is so much better. Does the IMG grade in "rural Nepalese Natural Healing" with a grade of '~^*|' translate into sumthing at WashU?

Um no...no...this is crazy talk.
 
CameronFrye said:
Anyway, you're really bringing down the positive vibe of the path forum. Time to get back on topic: POO
Click to expand...
poo poo poo poo

poopants

poop'd 'em

poo poo poo poo

i shat on a water fountain once
poo
poo
poo
poo
poo
 
AndyMilonakis said:
poo poo poo poo

poopants

poop'd 'em

poo poo poo poo

i shat on a water fountain once
poo
poo
poo
poo
poo
Click to expand...
:D :laugh: :thumbup:
The good vibes are beginning to return.
 
LMAO i am narrow-minded because i think Americans should get spots before foreigners?

i am narrow-minded because i am able to realize that patients want doctors who can communicate and relate with them?

Get real. Open your eyes and exit your great Utopia in the sky

Also get rid of the left wing politically correct shtick.

LADoc offered the only coherent post which actually addresses the concerns i posed.

What would you say to a good American candidate who is quite "competitive" and who didn't get a spot in HIS OWN COUNTRY becasue it was given to some foreigner. Where is the reason? How do you address the questions I posed earlier?

Or are you all too degenerate to actually reason?

Instead it seems like some of you can only recite what your Marxist humanities professor tells you about society
 
Thrombus said:
LMAO i am narrow-minded because i think Americans should get spots before foreigners?

i am narrow-minded because i am able to realize that patients want doctors who can communicate and relate with them?

Get real. Open your eyes and exit your great Utopia in the sky

Also get rid of the left wing politically correct shtick.

LADoc offered the only coherent post which actually addresses the concerns i posed.

What would you say to a good American candidate who is quite "competitive" and who didn't get a spot in HIS OWN COUNTRY becasue it was given to some foreigner. Where is the reason? How do you address the questions I posed earlier?

Or are you all too degenerate to actually reason?

Instead it seems like some of you can only recite what your Marxist humanities professor tells you about society
Click to expand...
don't get all desperate and angry. everything will be alright.
 
Thrombus said:
LMAO i am narrow-minded because i think Americans should get spots before foreigners?

i am narrow-minded because i am able to realize that patients want doctors who can communicate and relate with them?

Get real. Open your eyes and exit your great Utopia in the sky

Also get rid of the left wing politically correct shtick.

LADoc offered the only coherent post which actually addresses the concerns i posed.

What would you say to a good American candidate who is quite "competitive" and who didn't get a spot in HIS OWN COUNTRY becasue it was given to some foreigner. Where is the reason? How do you address the questions I posed earlier?

Or are you all too degenerate to actually reason?

Instead it seems like some of you can only recite what your Marxist humanities professor tells you about society
Click to expand...

And I am the only here Pathologist I believe (residents not BE at least aint countin), coincidence, I think not. Phear me. :laugh:
 
AndyMilonakis said:
poo poo poo poo

poopants

poop'd 'em

poo poo poo poo

i shat on a water fountain once
poo
poo
poo
poo
poo
Click to expand...
Ahem *CLEARS THROAT NOISILY*

poo

There, I've done my bit for improving the overall tone of this thread. :)
 
LADoc00 said:
And...I cant believe people are throwing around crazy board scores, like my school had a 230 average?! WTF? Did they change how the test was scored?? A 200-205 used to be near the 50th percentile. I know for a fact, that UCSD in their first year as a medical school had the highest board average in the nation, and it was in the 220s.
Click to expand...

The mean board score has been drifting upward a few points per year since they last reset them to have 200 be the mean. I guess students these days are getting better intel on what will be covered on the boards.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that the nationwide average is around 225. Does anyone know what the current mean is?
 
RyMcQ said:
The mean board score has been drifting upward a few points per year since they last reset them to have 200 be the mean. I guess students these days are getting better intel on what will be covered on the boards.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that the nationwide average is around 225. Does anyone know what the current mean is?
Click to expand...
It's something like 215 or 216.
 
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