unhappy nurses?

[talaxandra]

As I posted earlier, I think money is cited as an issue more for what it symbolises than for it's own sake.

That said, a couple of things to consider:
1) nursing may be 'only a two- or three-year degree' but for most nurses that's not where their education ends - it's just that there isn't a lot of recognition of this, financial or otherwise. As a doctor, the only way you'll know what post-basic qualifications the nurse you're working with have is if s/he tells you.

2) many nurses make more money than junior/hospital doctors, but we also reach our peak earning potential earlier and lower.

3) I'm not in any way taking away the demands of people in these fields, but nursing is more physically demanding than other health care positions. There is also significant emotional labour involved, and a high level of risk - nurses are more likely than other health care workers to be injured at work, both through performing nursing duties and as a result of attacks by patients and family members. As a result, nurses have a shorter working life than other health care workers. This isn't a claim for higher pay, just something to keep in mind.

I agree that there are other people who work hard in important jobs that invove interacting in people's lives. I agree with mx_599 that emergency service workers, who risk their lives to protect the rest of us, should be commensurately compensated. And I agree that education, we have no future - teachers are vitally important.

But this doesn't have to be an either/or discussion. I haven't seen anyone posting that firefighters, police officers or teachers are being overpaid. And, like I said to begin with, I don't think it's all about the money anyway.

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[adamdowannabe]

I believe that if one day........ all the baseball, football, hocky and basketball (etc) teams decided that the salary for professional sports topped out at 75k....... then athletes would still play sports, because for goodness sake, most of them can barely read and all they have ever wanted to do is play basketball.

Can anyone here relate to the thought process of (when applying to med school, or starting organic chem and struggling):

" I want to be a doctor so badly I would do it for free! I want to learn medicine because I love thi ****, it fascinates me, it makes me happy to do what I do, if only the adcom could know that"...........

I am sure it is that way for most (because the days of Medicine being the way to get rich is GONE)

But, then it turns into a money game, who makes what....who deserves what......... how much school do they have? Who do they effect?...............

Plain and simple, america is backwards! People who play a game for a living, or jump around in front of a camera pretending to be someone they aren't, or people who sing, THOSE people get paid SO much (doing something we all do for free in our spare time for fun!)

People who actually work for a living, make less. But, when you start the bitching, and comparing, people get what they have argued to get, if they really deserve it or not is beside the point. Remember, America is CAPITALIST, if you really want to get paid for your efforts and your importance, buy a small island and try to rebuild your own private communism, and set the pay scales.

Seriously, life aint fair.... Whaaaaa!

(by the way, police and fire, they spend 90% of their career sitting doing nothing waiting for something to happen. they get payed well for that, yes a bunch of people died, but so did the custodians who got crushed in the collapse, does that means custodians should be making over 100K, because they could be involved in a tragic attack?)

Lets think people..... think....

 

[a_ditchdoc]

(by the way, police and fire, they spend 90% of their career sitting doing nothing waiting for something to happen. they get payed well for that, yes a bunch of people died, but so did the custodians who got crushed in the collapse, does that means custodians should be making over 100K, because they could be involved in a tragic attack?)

I am usually a pretty reasonable guy. My friends comment that I am the calmest person that they know. Girlfriends have gotten upset that I do not get excited about little things. I am usually not prone to outburts, rants, or rage. So, I will try to refrain from a personal attack.

That said, reading your last statement gave me the strongest desire to kick your front teeth in and perhaps even choke you a little as I slammed your ignorant little head on the ground a few times. I was a paramedic for 14 years. Surely I sat on my butt on many occasions, but when I worked, I worked harder than most will ever have to. Often, the sitting on my butt was interrupted, along with at least half of all of my meals, to go help someone. I worked without any direct supervision and often had to make quick decisions that were crappy either way. During thunderstorms, sleet, hurricanes and every other variation of weather, I cut broken bleeding people from cars as they screamed for mercy. I watched people die as they begged me to help. I knelt in vomit and feces in tiny little bathrooms and resuscitated old people. I declared people dead and gave their family my sympathies and helped them make funeral arrangements. I told new parents that their child had died during the night of SIDS and that their was nothing I could do. I sometimes went into hostile areas to retrieve gunshot victims, occasionally while large crowds were rioting, screaming at me, and fighting police. I have been kicked, punched, spit on, and fought with on many occasions. I have babinski reflex in my left foot from lifting heavy unappreciative people and carrying them down stairs. What incredible salary did I get paid for all of this? When I left I was making 30k per year, less than most garbage collectors.

So, keep your unknowing "upper middle class" comments to yourself or at least try to educate yourself. And as far as you comments about loving medicine so much that you would do it for free: put your money where your mouth is. When you become an MD, devote a large part of your time serving impoverished communities or try to pull a few stints in Africa where life is cheap.

(Big exhale). I am glad I have that out of my system...

 

[mx_599]

I believe that if one day........ all the baseball, football, hocky and basketball (etc) teams decided that the salary for professional sports topped out at 75k....... then athletes would still play sports, because for goodness sake, most of them can barely read and all they have ever wanted to do is play basketball.

Can anyone here relate to the thought process of (when applying to med school, or starting organic chem and struggling):

" I want to be a doctor so badly I would do it for free! I want to learn medicine because I love thi ****, it fascinates me, it makes me happy to do what I do, if only the adcom could know that"...........

I am sure it is that way for most (because the days of Medicine being the way to get rich is GONE)

But, then it turns into a money game, who makes what....who deserves what......... how much school do they have? Who do they effect?...............

Plain and simple, america is backwards! People who play a game for a living, or jump around in front of a camera pretending to be someone they aren't, or people who sing, THOSE people get paid SO much (doing something we all do for free in our spare time for fun!)

People who actually work for a living, make less. But, when you start the bitching, and comparing, people get what they have argued to get, if they really deserve it or not is beside the point. Remember, America is CAPITALIST, if you really want to get paid for your efforts and your importance, buy a small island and try to rebuild your own private communism, and set the pay scales.

Seriously, life aint fair.... Whaaaaa!

(by the way, police and fire, they spend 90% of their career sitting doing nothing waiting for something to happen. they get payed well for that, yes a bunch of people died, but so did the custodians who got crushed in the collapse, does that means custodians should be making over 100K, because they could be involved in a tragic attack?)

Lets think people..... think....

That post just pissed me off. I don't think you're as smart as I thought. I agree with the above poster.

 

[smkoepke]

While I agree with many of the above posters that the nursing profession is vital, important, and difficult at times, I also agree with the poster who is asking why there is so much complaint about income. I'm sorry, but 50-75K+ for 40 hours of work with a bachelor's degree or 2 year degree is pretty damn good. That is about as much as you can expect with this kind of degree in most professions. There are FPs making 80K for similar hours in some locales after 8 years of school and 3 years of residency.

Again, I agree with the respect issue. I just don't see why and how you would feel underpaid with this kind of income.

If all or even most nurses were making 50-75k I don't think there would be a salary complaint. The ave Rn salary is right about 50k per year, but that includes 20 yr veterans and and factoring the nurses who make a bit more than normal due to high cost of living areas such as new york and california. A lot of nurses are only making high teens to low twenties per hour, including nurses who have years of experience. This is unfortunate. I for one plainly stated that along with nursing, EMS is underpaid.

 

[Noeljan]

i agree with the above poster.
I graduated with a class of I think 60 or so in my program and I have never heard of anyone making that much money.Most of my friends were making about 35-40 a year in my area.

 

[smkoepke]

Probably true.

I just think some of the people here are being way unrealistic. They are not looking at the big picture. I think they forget what typical salaries are for many people who work hard. Their arguement of "dealing with human lives" just doesn't cut it for me.

Policeman do not make that much money.

Firemen do not make that much money. The FIREMEN who were killed in 911 probably didn't make as much money as RN's.

TEACHERS! If anyone deserves an increase in pay, it is them.!! They are trying to educate our future for peanuts. As it stands now, I think they deserve a far bigger raise than any RN. I respect TEACHERS very much.

Certain individuals on here are calling me bitter...no, I guess I am just raining on some unrealistic Nurses' parade. They don't like the truth and are taking it out on me. Typical.

Do you feel that doctors should make the amount of money that they do? If you don't like the argument that they are "dealing with human lives", then why should they make the salaries that they do? It can't be because of their long years of education, because other professions require a similar time frame of education as well, and most don't make anywhere near as much. I personally do not resent the fact that doctors make more than most people, I want someone who is competent, intelligent and satisfied with their work to manage my care, and money plays a large part in satisfaction on the job. Certainly we don't have to agree, but I for one would like to see licensed professionals compensated properly for their responsibility and knowledge.

 

[talaxandra]

by the way, police and fire, they spend 90% of their career sitting doing nothing waiting for something to happen. they get payed well for that, yes a bunch of people died, but so did the custodians who got crushed in the collapse, does that means custodians should be making over 100K, because they could be involved in a tragic attack?

I think 90% is a significant exaggeration, but that's by the by. The point of referencing 9/11 is that emergency service personnel, particularly fire fighters, regularly risk serious injury or death as part of their work.
Fire fighters enter buildings that are unquestionably dangerous, knowingly risk their lives, to try to help other people.
Anybody, anywhere, can get caught in a fire, but there is no expectation that a custodian will put his/her life in jeopardy as part of their job.
Not a convincing comparision, wannabe.

 

[talaxandra]

I want someone who is competent, intelligent and satisfied with their work to manage my care, and money plays a large part in satisfaction on the job. Certainly we don't have to agree, but I for one would like to see licensed professionals compensated properly for their responsibility and knowledge.

And isn't that the best reason of all for everyone to want to adequately pay all health care and essential service workers?

 

[toughlife]

Thank you....that's all I was saying. You cannot just give all RN's 100 grand! Places would be going out of business.

Why not just import more nurses from the phillipines and mexico and pay them 20-25K/yr on 2-3 year contracts just like it is done with teachers now? Although low by american standards, this is much more than what they would make back home.
I watched on CNN that some school districts in the east coast bring teachers from australia, europe, philippines, etc on 2-3 year contracts and pay them like 20-25 a year and that works well for both parties.

Foreign workers work harder and don't bitch as much as american workers.

 

[toughlife]

I am usually a pretty reasonable guy. My friends comment that I am the calmest person that they know. Girlfriends have gotten upset that I do not get excited about little things. I am usually not prone to outburts, rants, or rage. So, I will try to refrain from a personal attack.

That said, reading your last statement gave me the strongest desire to kick your front teeth in and perhaps even choke you a little as I slammed your ignorant little head on the ground a few times. I was a paramedic for 14 years. Surely I sat on my butt on many occasions, but when I worked, I worked harder than most will ever have to. Often, the sitting on my butt was interrupted, along with at least half of all of my meals, to go help someone. I worked without any direct supervision and often had to make quick decisions that were crappy either way. During thunderstorms, sleet, hurricanes and every other variation of weather, I cut broken bleeding people from cars as they screamed for mercy. I watched people die as they begged me to help. I knelt in vomit and feces in tiny little bathrooms and resuscitated old people. I declared people dead and gave their family my sympathies and helped them make funeral arrangements. I told new parents that their child had died during the night of SIDS and that their was nothing I could do. I sometimes went into hostile areas to retrieve gunshot victims, occasionally while large crowds were rioting, screaming at me, and fighting police. I have been kicked, punched, spit on, and fought with on many occasions. I have babinski reflex in my left foot from lifting heavy unappreciative people and carrying them down stairs. What incredible salary did I get paid for all of this? When I left I was making 30k per year, less than most garbage collectors.

So, keep your unknowing "upper middle class" comments to yourself or at least try to educate yourself. And as far as you comments about loving medicine so much that you would do it for free: put your money where your mouth is. When you become an MD, devote a large part of your time serving impoverished communities or try to pull a few stints in Africa where life is cheap.

(Big exhale). I am glad I have that out of my system...

He is a PA not a med student.

 

[mx_599]

Do you feel that doctors should make the amount of money that they do?

With malpractice insurance, yes.

 

[smkoepke]

With malpractice insurance, yes.

so if you subtract the percentage of their income that they pay into malpractice insurance, and they still are WELL ahead of other doctorate level professions, (and they are) should their pay be downgraded so that it is more in line with others? Again, I don't have a problem with what physicians make, but using your logic they don't deserve their high salaries either.

 

[adamdowannabe]

All of my friends....... are police or retired police (except one, and he is ex military) These guys get paid WELL, and when the slightest injury occurs......well, thats when the real money rolls in. I have a good friend who hurt is shoulder while detaining a suspect. the guy is totally fine, he plays golf with me regularly, yet...he claimed he was in no shape to return to the police work, he now recieves $3,000 dollars a month tax free (for life) plus got 120K as a settlement. He has another job, he just happens to have all this "free money" rolling in every month. He spends it on big TV's and fun stuff! The best pensions in the country....are governemt jobs, (police and fire included.) in some counties they get 90% of their salary for LIFE...FOR LIFE!!! Thats a lot of money, especially when you can retire young, retirement doesn't mean don't get a different job mind you, so they do just that. Also it's very common for city employees to milk their last years pay with overtime and pad it other ways, so their pension is artificially inflated. (crooked yes.... but not uncommon)

is 90% downtime for a firefighter stretching it? probably...... but, people become police and firefighters because they love the rush. They do it, because the job is exciting!! risky? yes!!! thats the point!

In general, firefighters have a LOT of down time, ok...90% is an exageration, but realize someplaces, the actual use of firefighters to fight industrial fires and structure fires (where they enter a building)and are placed in significant harms way, is the smallest part of their actual work. (think automobile accidents, small fires, non-dangerous situations)

Also, ever wondered if healthcare workers get more if they work with HIV infected patients? is their hazard pay for a nurse to draw blood from an HIV infected patient? Does that even come up in discussion as to why someone should get payed more? *just a thought*

Someone used the NYFD of 9/11 as an example of the risk of being a public servant in that career field. Thats why I brought the point up about the custodians....you can't use one national tragedy as the norm, because we all know it isn't the norm.

I know that my buddies who work Oakland PD, milk the overtime by working the paddy wagon at sporting events. It's a frivilous use of public funds, but who the heck cares right?

One must also realize, nowhere in my post did I mention EMS...... so thats not applicable. As a paramedic, I wasn't talking about you

The arguement had many tangents to it, you guys happened to take my last little note, and run with it. Thats cool, thats what everyone does, you only take what you want from a post w/o using the whole post to gather a more "complete" idea of what the poster was trying to say. Thats why internet forums are worthless, half the stuff written is misunderstood, or taken out of context.

** I'm not a PA or MD or DO, I am a chef... I cook food, and it's dangerous! I get burned, cut my fingers, peoples health depends on my ability to follow food safety guidlines!!!** I say this in jest, but come one everyone. I will say it again, the money distribution in this country is FAR from fair........... why do 8% of the people have 95% of the wealth?

You guys argue over 15-20K, what about the people who make 300-400 million dollars a year, and they never leave their desk chair? It's funny to listen to people argue about who should make more because of how much time they spend with patients.... but, the people who really don't desrve their wealth are the ones that have the most! (hence my previous post) Moral of the story? IT'S NOT FAIR.......... if money was everything, those that are nurses could probably have gone and put less effort into getting involved in business, and then they would be RICH!

It comes down to being involved in healthcare because you like the way it makes you feel after you get done with a kick in the ass 12 hour shift, and you get home and you feel satisfied. You know that no other job would give you the same satisfaction as doing with what you do, not even for 10x's the salary............ so, the true value of a job, is how it makes you feel to have the job. (internal worth)

I hear taco bell starts their managers at 50K, and all you need is an AA degree, for managing a TACO BELL...... if it's really about the money, there is money somewhere else, I think it's about something totally different.

(please don't flame me because my peace officer friends have given me a bad perspective of what police officers are like, to them...they are all about the money. And, damm excited about how much they make for what they do.


Also, you can't ever judge someones intelligence based on their opinion. It's merely an opinion right?

 

[zenman]

TEACHERS! If anyone deserves an increase in pay, it is them.!! They are trying to educate our future for peanuts. As it stands now, I think they deserve a far bigger raise than any RN. I respect TEACHERS very much.

I just gave up my 90k nursing job a few days ago. Now, after playing tourist for the next month, I'll be heading to Bangladesh where my salary has been jacked up to match that of the local Phillipine doctor...$21k and my teacher wife will make more than double my salary. Course, we'll be able to live on mine and save hers, but what a switch...teacher finally making more than nurses!

 

[mx_599]

All of my friends....... are police or retired police (except one, and he is ex military) These guys get paid WELL, and when the slightest injury occurs......well, thats when the real money rolls in. I have a good friend who hurt is shoulder while detaining a suspect. the guy is totally fine, he plays golf with me regularly, yet...he claimed he was in no shape to return to the police work, he now recieves $3,000 dollars a month tax free (for life) plus got 120K as a settlement. He has another job, he just happens to have all this "free money" rolling in every month. He spends it on big TV's and fun stuff! The best pensions in the country....are governemt jobs, (police and fire included.) in some counties they get 90% of their salary for LIFE...FOR LIFE!!! Thats a lot of money, especially when you can retire young, retirement doesn't mean don't get a different job mind you, so they do just that. Also it's very common for city employees to milk their last years pay with overtime and pad it other ways, so their pension is artificially inflated. (crooked yes.... but not uncommon)

is 90% downtime for a firefighter stretching it? probably...... but, people become police and firefighters because they love the rush. They do it, because the job is exciting!! risky? yes!!! thats the point!

In general, firefighters have a LOT of down time, ok...90% is an exageration, but realize someplaces, the actual use of firefighters to fight industrial fires and structure fires (where they enter a building)and are placed in significant harms way, is the smallest part of their actual work. (think automobile accidents, small fires, non-dangerous situations)

Also, ever wondered if healthcare workers get more if they work with HIV infected patients? is their hazard pay for a nurse to draw blood from an HIV infected patient? Does that even come up in discussion as to why someone should get payed more? *just a thought*

Someone used the NYFD of 9/11 as an example of the risk of being a public servant in that career field. Thats why I brought the point up about the custodians....you can't use one national tragedy as the norm, because we all know it isn't the norm.

I know that my buddies who work Oakland PD, milk the overtime by working the paddy wagon at sporting events. It's a frivilous use of public funds, but who the heck cares right?

One must also realize, nowhere in my post did I mention EMS...... so thats not applicable. As a paramedic, I wasn't talking about you

The arguement had many tangents to it, you guys happened to take my last little note, and run with it. Thats cool, thats what everyone does, you only take what you want from a post w/o using the whole post to gather a more "complete" idea of what the poster was trying to say. Thats why internet forums are worthless, half the stuff written is misunderstood, or taken out of context.

** I'm not a PA or MD or DO, I am a chef... I cook food, and it's dangerous! I get burned, cut my fingers, peoples health depends on my ability to follow food safety guidlines!!!** I say this in jest, but come one everyone. I will say it again, the money distribution in this country is FAR from fair........... why do 8% of the people have 95% of the wealth?

You guys argue over 15-20K, what about the people who make 300-400 million dollars a year, and they never leave their desk chair? It's funny to listen to people argue about who should make more because of how much time they spend with patients.... but, the people who really don't desrve their wealth are the ones that have the most! (hence my previous post) Moral of the story? IT'S NOT FAIR.......... if money was everything, those that are nurses could probably have gone and put less effort into getting involved in business, and then they would be RICH!

It comes down to being involved in healthcare because you like the way it makes you feel after you get done with a kick in the ass 12 hour shift, and you get home and you feel satisfied. You know that no other job would give you the same satisfaction as doing with what you do, not even for 10x's the salary............ so, the true value of a job, is how it makes you feel to have the job. (internal worth)

I hear taco bell starts their managers at 50K, and all you need is an AA degree, for managing a TACO BELL...... if it's really about the money, there is money somewhere else, I think it's about something totally different.

(please don't flame me because my peace officer friends have given me a bad perspective of what police officers are like, to them...they are all about the money. And, damm excited about how much they make for what they do.


Also, you can't ever judge someones intelligence based on their opinion. It's merely an opinion right?

okay...I take back some of what I said. However, school teachers are still underpaid I think. At least in areas around me.

 

[mx_599]

so if you subtract the percentage of their income that they pay into malpractice insurance, and they still are WELL ahead of other doctorate level professions, (and they are) should their pay be downgraded so that it is more in line with others? Again, I don't have a problem with what physicians make, but using your logic they don't deserve their high salaries either.

...and also don't forget my 200,000 dollar debt.

 

[mx_599]

It can't be because of their long years of education, because other professions require a similar time frame of education as well

which ones?

 

[smkoepke]

which ones?

any doctorate level program. You can't count residency, because it is paid and technically you have "graduated" at that point. so 8 yrs vs 8yrs. How many of those people with a phd get a pay hike of about 100k 3 yrs after graduation? They also have LARGE student loans to pay back as well. My point is that if you apply one set of rules on nurses and why they should or should not be paid more, then you have to follow that line of thinking on up to doctors as well. Again though, I don't necessarily think doctors are overpaid, just that nurses and paramedics are underpaid.

 

[smkoepke]

okay...I take back some of what I said. However, school teachers are still underpaid I think. At least in areas around me.

i do by the way agree with you that school teachers are underpaid, but that is a topic for another day.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I just gave up my 90k nursing job a few days ago. Now, after playing tourist for the next month, I'll be heading to Bangladesh where my salary has been jacked up to match that of the local Phillipine doctor...$21k and my teacher wife will make more than double my salary. Course, we'll be able to live on mine and save hers, but what a switch...teacher finally making more than nurses!

Sounds like quite an adventure. Good luck and have fun, I am sure it will be something that you never forget.

 

[mx_599]

any doctorate level program. You can't count residency, because it is paid and technically you have "graduated" at that point. so 8 yrs vs 8yrs.

Actually, you do count residency. Ask others. If my residency is going to take 6-8 years, combined with my MS and Doctorate...thats 16-18 years. During residency I will only be making enough to basically live. I will not be able to make a dent in the 200,000 dollars, which will be accruing interest as well.

I will be in my late 30's...give me a break.

 

[adamdowannabe]

6-8 years for residency? Whoa, that seems a little excessive... , what about 3-5 years for residency and then a fellowship?

I can get 6 years if you do a 1 year general osteo internship, THEN a full 5 years of surgical.......

Or, three years of residency, then three years of Cards fellowhips? But the three years of cards fellow is making an OK salary.

I might be naive, but what specialty takes an 8 year residency? I want to give that physician more respect!

If you live really tightly you should be able to make minimum payments on your loans during residency. As long as you have no kids, no wife, and no mortgage!

* On the other hand, all the PhD (and a large chunk of the masters students I have gone to school with) Didn't pay for school. Unless you are attending a bottom of the barrel doctoral program, god schools not only pay your tuition, but offer students 1,500-2,000 dollars a month stipend for research assistantships or teaching assistantships. Heck, good PhD programs even PAY for interview candidates to come interview (meaning airfair and hotel) when was the last time a medical school offered to fly you out for their interview!

Getting a PhD can mean making 75K as a professor, making SQUAT in certain research careers, or you can choose a career that makes people TONS of money. Ex.1, my gen chem professor from undergrad, early 50's, retired millionaire, teaches for fun, and to give back. PhD in chemistry, got him a job in R&D at cloroxx, where he became an executive vice president (of R&D) and was responsible for the creation of everyone's favorite non-chlorine bleach alternative Cloroxx2!! Guys Filthy rich! All he talks about (besides geeky chem trivia) was his fly fishing trips and golf. (ex military served in vietnam, and he wasn't geeky or white, so you can't pull the race card)

Show me a doctor that is retired with a gigantic "umbrella" and pension, EVER, let alone by the time they are early 50's and I will say PhD's are way underpaid.......... again, it really comes down to WHERE you apply your effort. There are doctoral degree's that offer large amounts of wealth. (Psychology is a decent example) Or the elusive PsyD, which is a hard 3+ years of book work, no MS required. (often times partime it takes 5 years) then being able to bill 150 bucks an hour aint bad. the above listed chemistry professor's "real career" ain't to shabby either!! If you want to teach, yes..... you aren't going to get the money might be able to make doing something else. Again it's all a choice, (similar to the CHOICE people make to go into low income medical specialties)

Jobs these days, it's the luck of the draw!

My bests friends mother has a BA, not even sure in what. Got a random lowly job doing human resourses ~30 years ago, within 8 years, she was an Jr. executive making 6 figures, now she is an H&R executive, makes (rumored to be) 550K and flies the country in a private company jet, and has the elusive private car waiting for her everywhere. Part of the perks of being an executive I guess? I can't wait to be his friend in 25-30 years when he inherits the bounty!

If any one person wants to spend as much time working a business style job as they have dedicated to working as hard as it takes to get into medical school, go through the medical education, and THEN a residency (minimum wage slave labor!) they could be sitting in an office as an executive somewhere, pulling in 250K or more in salary + stock options, plus the perks ( free hard to get tickets, expense account, company car, etc *feel free to add to the perks of jobs not related to medicine) (plus no loans to pay back!)

So, when people bitch about doctors being overpaid (the public in general) why don't they ever mention how much anyone else makes for the amount of time they have put in? Probably because it's not good evidence to support their bitching!

Trying to compare salary per educational years spent is impossible. I suggest SDN calls a halt to the arguement, and we all agree, people do what they do, because they like what they do! Not because they get paid rediculously well for it, some people just luck out, and what they like to do also happens to pay well.

Like, Paris Hilton, she likes being a trashy hotel heiress ditzy blonde, and it happens to pay really well!

 

[Sinnman]

I can't believe I'm actually replying to this thread. As someone going on my third medical career, I feel that I have some experience on this "they make too much/too little" topic. Here's my opinion after being a Paramedic, RN, teacher and soon to be physician.

EMTs/Paramedics:

Definitely underpaid. EMS varies quite a bit from area to area in both training and pay. I went to a University program associated with their medical school. Darn good program, one of the best in the country. Two years of training. My first job as a Paramedic I made less than $7.00/hr (of course that was over ten years ago). I never broke $11.00. The pay needs to go up to attract and retain competent medics.

RNs:

Salaries for RNs are incredibly varied. Some nurses make $11.00/hr, some make over $50.00. I started off making an insanely high rate and never went down. If you get the right training and know what you're doing, you can make a VERY comfortable living.

I think nurses pay in general is dead-on for the job and the training. In a lot of cases, I think nurses are actually overpaid. There is no other job that I know of where you can go to school for 2 years and make the money that a lot of nurses make (I'm talking around a $100,000/yr).

Let’s face it, the training isn't that difficult and the job can be hard, but it's not the hardest thing I've done. Of course, this is America, if you can make tons of money go for it. (To all the RNs out there, don't give me flack for saying this. I've been an RN for a long time both as a pt care provider and supervisor in a bunch of hospitals, in several units and in three states, that's the way it is.)

Teachers:

Teachers need to be paid better. I think the US school system needs to be revamped and we need to get rid of teachers union. Definitely need more $$.

Doctors:

Having finally seen "the other side," I think doctors deserve everything they get. You truly cannot compare the training to anything else. Medical school is much more demanding than any other graduate program I'm aware of. Anybody with both a PhD and a MD/DO will tell you which was harder. Then there's the "80" hour a week residency/fellowship training for another 3-8 years.

And yes, the debt burden of most physicians will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher than most other doctoral programs. Tack on another 3-8 years of post-graduate training and you've capitalized tens of thousands of dollars of additional debt. Also, financially you have lost a decade or more of retirement savings and compounding interest. And don't forget about malpractice that can reach over $100,000/yr.


I'm so sick of hearing all the garbage on this forum. Don't pretend like you know what it's like unless you've walked in the other guys’ shoes.

 

[mx_599]

6-8 years for residency? Whoa, that seems a little excessive... , what about 3-5 years for residency and then a fellowship?

I can get 6 years if you do a 1 year general osteo internship, THEN a full 5 years of surgical.......

Thanks for the insightful post Adam. You're right, I should have phrased it as Post-graduate training. Also, not everything is cut and dry. I am learning all this stuff at the moment. I can only go by what I read. Incidently, I am reading a book by Atul Gawande, "Complications: A Surgeon's Notes on an Imperfect Science". He states his surgical residency is 8 years! I don't know the particulars of why...but this is what he writes. I can only assume not everything always works out to what you and I think a residency should amount to as far as years.
I do not know exactly what I want to do. I have my ideas. Honestly, my board scores will have something to do with what I am able to enter into...field wise.

Like, Paris Hilton, she likes being a trashy hotel heiress ditzy blonde, and it happens to pay really well!

She didn't do a thing to earn what she has.

 

[mx_599]

I can't believe I'm actually replying to this thread. As someone going on my third medical career, I feel that I have some experience on this "they make too much/too little" topic. Here's my opinion after being a Paramedic, RN, teacher and soon to be physician.

No...I can't thank you enough for taking the time

EMTs/Paramedics:

Definitely underpaid.

Agreed...I never said anything about these guys in my previous posts. To some of you other people who have been attacking me on here...go re-read them!

RNs:

Salaries for RNs are incredibly varied. Some nurses make $11.00/hr, some make over $50.00. you can make a VERY comfortable living.

Agreed. However, most I have encountered were making $30/hr and above. Sometimes paying the RN $50/hr to watch monitors for 12 hours. That's valuable hospital spending for you!! I was watching the monitors right next to them for $10/hr

I think nurses pay in general is dead-on for the job and the training. In a lot of cases, I think nurses are actually overpaid.

Wow...and this is from someone who has worked all areas. Thank you!!!

There is no other job that I know of where you can go to school for 2 years and make the money that a lot of nurses make (I'm talking around a $100,000/yr).

Exactly what I tried to say earlier!! Especially those traveling nurses. Okay...whatever. How many jobs can you do that with? Allowances, see other places, etc, etc...

Let’s face it, the training isn't that difficult

I know a girl who didn't want to take chemistry for her BSN...so she went to a different institution and still got her BSN w/o chemistry!!! Where is the standard in that?

(To all the RNs out there, don't give me flack for saying this. I've been an RN for a long time both as a pt care provider and supervisor in a bunch of hospitals, in several units and in three states, that's the way it is.)

Take that all of you RNs who were jumping down my throat!!! Reality bites.

Doctors:

Having finally seen "the other side," I think doctors deserve everything they get. You truly cannot compare the training to anything else. Medical school is much more demanding than any other graduate program I'm aware of. Anybody with both a PhD and a MD/DO will tell you which was harder. Then there's the "80" hour a week residency/fellowship training for another 3-8 years.

Agreed...from what PhD programs I have seen.

And yes, the debt burden of most physicians will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher than most other doctoral programs. Tack on another 3-8 years of post-graduate training and you've capitalized tens of thousands of dollars of additional debt. Also, financially you have lost a decade or more of retirement savings and compounding interest. And don't forget about malpractice that can reach over $100,000/yr.

One final big thank you for this post!!!

 

[adamdowannabe]

I read complications,

Awesome book, I liked it.

I believe gen surg is a 5 year residency, but I think people get sidetracked with research. I think some programs just want doctors on staff and don't require much research if any, and some top notch programs want research..... big projects. Those take time. I guess doing research can turn any 5 year program into years more work. Then again, who stops at Gen surg anymore, when the fellowships come calling, residents answer!

Your point is well taken though, getting into a cutting medical practice is time consuming (at best), some people get into specialties that involve cutting but require less residency. OB-GYN, ENT, stuff like that involves chunks of surgery.

Tough call, dedicated Med students, I salute you!

 

[mx_599]

I read complications,

Awesome book, I liked it.

Tough call, dedicated Med students, I salute you!

Thanks. I just started the book. As you can see, I don't start until this Fall. I could very well change my mind on surgery, but that is where I am leaning. I hope my board scores don't ruin my dreams in two years.

I have the dedication, perseverance, no family, etc...the only block I see is the USMLE step One.

What did you think of Sinnman's post??? hehehehe

 

[sunnyjohn]

My grandmother would always tell me, "Worry about your own pocketbook, Especially when there is little in it."

 

[boogita]

I am not one to normally reply to these posts, but this discussion about money is starting to get unreal.

Yes there are some nurses who don't deserve the pay they get (some deserve more some deserve less). Yes some nurses spend time just looking at monitors all day, but there are also those nurses who are workign their butts off all day. But the same thing can be said about any professions. Not ALL teachers, EMT's, doctors, or techs deserve more money. The truth is that each person in their own profession should be paid based on the quality of their work as well as how easy it is to get people to do the work that they do.

Nurses are getting paid well becuase there is a nursing shortage, doctors get paid well becuase of all the training they must go thru, PhD's get paid becuase of their education.

Pay is also based on areas of work.

If it's hard to get teachers to work in the inner city then yes they need to be paid more so that we can get them to work there. If it's hard to get OB/GYN's becuase the money they make doesn't outweigh the insurance they pay out then yes they need to be paid more. But it's hard to generalize and say one group of people don't deserve more or one group of people deserve more.

In general I don't think I, or anyone, can say what a group of people should make across the board.

 

[mx_599]

The truth is that each person in their own profession should be paid based on the quality of their work as well as how easy it is to get people to do the work that they do.

Please...what planet are you from. That would be nice, but that is not how it works.

 

[boogita]

Please...what planet are you from. That would be nice, but that is not how it works.

You're right that's not how it works. But, that's how it should work.

I wasn't trying to talk about what really happens I was pointing out what should happen. All of the talk about who deserves what amount of money is just as unreal. If you really want to talk about what amount of money people deserve you have to look at the quality of their work, that's all I was pointing out.

 

[mx_599]

You're right that's not how it works. But, that's how it should work.

I wasn't trying to talk about what really happens I was pointing out what should happen. All of the talk about who deserves what amount of money is just as unreal. If you really want to talk about what amount of money people deserve you have to look at the quality of their work, that's all I was pointing out.

I know. You're right. It simply started by me saying nurses are paid about right or too much. I didn't mean to make it into a discussion on professions and their pay. Others turned it into that.

 

[boogita]

I know. You're right. It simply started by me saying nurses are paid about right or too much. I didn't mean to make it into a discussion on professions and their pay. Others turned it into that.

However, back to the original question I think some nurses are unhappy becuase they feel underappreciated. I can see why after reading some of these posts. It sucks to have people think that all we (that's right if you couldn't have guessed I am a nurse) do is put people on bed pans or sleep with the doctors (or as one person put it) suck doctors dicks. Nurses really do a lot that people don't realize. I work in a prison and when there's no doctor on staff I have to make a decision about what treatment inmates recieve and if inmates need to be transfered out. Sure some of us suck at what we do but that can be said about any profession.

Nursing is not an easy job we take a lot of **** and it can be thankless. But what really puts the icing on the cake to it is hearing some of our own colleagues say bad things about our profession.

I have to thank those of you who took a stand and really talked about the work nurses do. As to the other ones... try for one day doing the work that a nurse does (or anyother profession that you feel is beneth you) and you can see what sort of crap people have to deal with and will hopefully open your eyes.

 

[Sinnman]

Once again I find myself wondering why I'm replying to this thread. It's like a bad car wreck.

Boogita, you seem really angry. I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do.

In my opinion, a lot of nurses feel unappreciated because of the way healthcare is structured. It's a hierarchy. The fact is people go the hospital to see a doctor, not a nurse. The doctor is the one that is ultimately responsible for the care of the patients and is, therefore, at the top of the hierarchy. Then there are the nurses, then the techs and so forth.

Our society has been changing in a way that we don't respect a hierarchy. People want to feel like no one should be able to tell them what to do. Unfortunately, healthcare forces people into this situation and that causes tension.

I believe all people are equal and deserve respect. I also believe that different people have different roles in society and are often in positions "above me" and I respect that.

I always found it interesting that in the hospital the nurses would complain "Dr. So-and-so is such an $%$. Who does he think he is?" Nurses were always complaining about the doctors talking down to them. Then the RNs do the same thing to the LPNs, the LPNs do it to the techs and the techs do it housekeeping. Priceless.

One more thing, have you ever worked at a teaching hospital? There are many nurses that are down right mean to med students and interns. How many times of getting chewed out by nurses do you it takes before the soon-to-be physician develops a chip on their shoulder? (I know it works two ways so you don't have to hit 'reply' and say that). I love it when I'm in the hospital and a nurse starts getting mouthy with me or treats me like I'm an idiot. I'd love to pull out one of my licenses and show it to them but it's not worth it (BTW, I still work as an RN through medical school).

I respect the job that nurses do. Been there, done that, still doing it. It can be a hard job. But the reality is, nursing is what it is. I think nurses should be happy that they have achieved the status that they have and the salary that they earn. If you're not happy "being underneath" a doctor, go to medical school.

P.S. Please be nice to the housekeepers. THEY have a really hard job that's not appreciated.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I agree that nursing in general is a good profession. You get paid well for your training and the job isn't really all that tough. It can be stressfull at times but in reality I would rather be doing this for what I get paid than picking strawberries for 3 bucks an hour. Hell, I would rather be doing this even if I was getting paid the same for picking strawberries. I think that the same nurses that bitch about their jobs would complain about any other job as well. I enjoy being a nurse but I am really glad my time as a nurse is almost over. Nurses need to realize that someone is always going to give them orders and that there is a hierarchy, if they don't realize this they will never be happy. I am leaving nursing for dentistry for many reasons but the main one is because I want to be my own boss, I want to make my own schedule and I want to be in charge of my work environment. I just hope I can find a staff that feels the same, acts the same and is just as stupid as I am when I am a dentist. If I can I will be in heaven and have the perfect job.

 

[boogita]

I think you must have misunderstood me if you think that I am angry. I am not angry at all, what I am hurt by is some of the comments people make about nursing. I am proud to be a nurse (I am also a very happy nurse). I never wanted to be a doctor, nor do I have a problem with taking direction from a doctor.

I have no problem with the 'hierarchy'. I understand that people come to see doctors and not nurses. However, I think what people fail to understand is that everyone in the system is a team. To be honest, the job at any medical facility couldn't be done without housekeeping, techs, nurses (both LPN's and RN's), and doctors. It's a team and it takes a team effort. Not one person being more important that the other. I understand that as a nurse I have to take direction from a doctor. If it wasn't for the doctor I wouldn't know some of the medication or tests to run on patients. In the same time the doctor doesn't have the time to administer all the medication check all the vitals signs, change all the linens, and prepare food trays. That's where everyone else comes into play. That's why it's a team all of those factors (and more) come into play when taking care of a patient.

In the same time that's not to say that doctors don't deserve a ton of respect for what they do. Obviously they do. I would never want to put myself in their positions.

My point was something vastly different. I just wish people would respect what nurses do. Just in the same way that we should respect what doctors, teachers, EMT's, etc... do. It takes a certain kind of person to do those jobs.

 

[smkoepke]

No...I can't thank you enough for taking the time


Agreed...I never said anything about these guys in my previous posts. To some of you other people who have been attacking me on here...go re-read them!


Agreed. However, most I have encountered were making $30/hr and above. Sometimes paying the RN $50/hr to watch monitors for 12 hours. That's valuable hospital spending for you!! I was watching the monitors right next to them for $10/hr


Wow...and this is from someone who has worked all areas. Thank you!!!


Exactly what I tried to say earlier!! Especially those traveling nurses. Okay...whatever. How many jobs can you do that with? Allowances, see other places, etc, etc...


I know a girl who didn't want to take chemistry for her BSN...so she went to a different institution and still got her BSN w/o chemistry!!! Where is the standard in that?


Take that all of you RNs who were jumping down my throat!!! Reality bites.


Agreed...from what PhD programs I have seen.


One final big thank you for this post!!!

again if all or even most nurses were making 100k or close to it this wouldn't be an issue. The national average is HALF that amount so what does this tell you? Some nurses are well compensated, we've been over that, I agreed with that, however there are many who are not and this is the issue. Now of course there are ways to make more, lots of overtime or work an agency if possible, but not everyone can do that. The base salary in a lot of places needs to increase. The argument about paying a nurse 50 bucks to watch a monitor when they are paying you 10 doesn't hold water. Using this same logic many of the duties of a physcian could be done by cheaper staff. Would the outcomes consistently stay the same? probably not. Same thing with nursing. In any case I feel we may just have to agree to disagree, if you are in doubt as to the actual wages take a look at the hospital nursing listings around the country and you will see an extremely diverse array of salary categories. 30 dollars an hour is good money, the problem comes when you have a 20 yr veteran making 25 and even worse nurses making 16 or 17 dollars per hour.

 

[mx_599]

The argument about paying a nurse 50 bucks to watch a monitor when they are paying you 10 doesn't hold water.

Yeah it does. That is a waste of hospital funds.

look at the hospital nursing listings around the country and you will see an extremely diverse array of salary categories.

I have looked. It is not the norm to make less than 20/hr. In fact, most were making at least 25+/hr from my experience. LPN's are pushing 20/hr at many places in AZ for 1yr of school.

the problem comes when you have a 20 yr veteran making 25

Not all jobs are meant to pay through the roof just because you were working at it for 20 years. Please...be real. This isn't bashing nurses, it's REALITY of jobs!!

Sometimes it is up to the individual to make advances and have ambition. Sounds more like laziness on the 20 yr veteran's part.

and even worse nurses making 16 or 17 dollars per hour.

Yeah...cause that's really the norm. Whatever.

 

[mbgRN]

On the issue of pay- I currently make $25.75 (roughly $55-60K/yr with shift differentials) an hour and have been a nurse for 2 years. I think that my pay is pretty good considering that I only did two years in a second degree program and I can make double time and increase my takehome pay by $1000/mo by picking up an extra OT shift every two weeks. Also, because I work 3 days a week, I am able to take advantage of tuition benefits (free masters degree worth $60K) to advance my education leading to positions paying more. Not to mention, in my summer off last year, I worked as a freelance consultant to supplement my income. In metropolitan areas- hospitals are increasing nurses' pay yearly to stay competitive with other hospitals... pay is on the rise and at my hospital, we get performance-based bonuses. Pay in nursing is all about being enterprising. A friend of mine who does travel nursing (in town) and agency shifts as her overtime makes well over $100K and she gets a housing stipend on top of that. And she is sharp- has worked all over the country in all types of ICUs, has seen it all! She knows her stuff and her patients benefit from it. I think she earns every bit of that $100K for her experience and her career savvy.

The one thing that feels stifling about nursing is that I want to know more and I know that is something that I can change myself. I see the real difference that nurses make in patient care- we take care of many details that affect patient outcomes- e.g., adequate suctioning of trached and vented patients, meticulous skin care, ensuring good nutrition/sleep, patient education, coorindation of other services (WOC, PT/OT, pastoral care, etc)... (see above post about the ICU nurse)... As someone already mentioned, the minute someone's family member lands in an ICU or other unit with a nurse who is on top of things, their impressions of nursing change! I hear it every day and I think other nurses need to hear it.... respect and appreciation goes a long way and doesn't cost much.

 

[smkoepke]

Yeah it does. That is a waste of hospital funds.


I have looked. It is not the norm to make less than 20/hr. In fact, most were making at least 25+/hr from my experience. LPN's are pushing 20/hr at many places in AZ for 1yr of school.


Not all jobs are meant to pay through the roof just because you were working at it for 20 years. Please...be real. This isn't bashing nurses, it's REALITY of jobs!!

Sometimes it is up to the individual to make advances and have ambition. Sounds more like laziness on the 20 yr veteran's part.


Yeah...cause that's really the norm. Whatever.

so is it also a waste of hospital resources to have doctors treating sore thorats in the ER and ear infections upper respiratory infections and numerous other medical issues? What about healthy pregnancies? should the nurses just labor the mom and deliver the baby to make it cheaper? What happens when something goes wrong and the lesser educated individual doesn't recognize the signs? Because again cheaper staff could be "trained" to perform a lot of physician centered jobs the same way that you think non- nurses could be used to monitor patients. The problem in both of these situations is when a zebra occurs, or the patient has multiple systems affected by a disease process. THis is why licensed nurses need to take care of nursing functions and licensed physicians need to take care of physicians duties. As far as what the norm is you need to look in other areas, not just around you. Take a look at some of the salary polls at allnurses and see what area is making what. Now i didn't say that 16-17 dollars is the norm. Read critically. I said that the problem comes in because there are many nurses that make that. No one is asking nurses to be paid through the roof, just that they make a salary that complements their responsibility. In any case we seem to be at a stalemate. You appear to think nurses are overpaid, and that the job and schooling are a piece of cake. I disagree. I will say this, if you are a med student or a med student hopeful, it would really benefit you to understand the job of a nurse, as hospitals can't run without them and you can't take care of your patients without them. If the job is so easy, and nurses are overpaid why on earth do you think there is a huge nursing shortage? That makes no sense. Think about some of the attitudes on this board. There is a thread right now about how stupid nurses are, among many other inflammatory threads. I would like to think that people attending or planning to attend med school are sufficiently mature enough to be above that sort of behavior. Apparently not the case in many instances. This is the sort of attitude that nurses put up with, along with being short staffed and having to adhere to standards of nursing care that conflict with hospital policies. Putting their license and thus their livelyhood in jeopardy due to unsafe staffing and patient ratios and being held legally responsible for the care that the techs give (or in a lot of cases don't give ). This doesn't mean that I think all nurses need to make 75k-100k per year. What it does mean is that nurses making 35-40k per year will not stay in the job with this amount of stress and responsibility hanging on them for very long. Having across the board better pay would go a long way in the retention of nurses. Another thing to look at is the fact that if more and more nurses leave and we continue to lose nurses, doctors will also lose income. People GO to the hospital because they need a doctor, but people STAY in the hospital because they need a nurse.

 

[Sinnman]

Great! Time for a group hug!!! I agree with most of what's above.

mbgRN, I read that you "want to know more." Do you want to learn more about medicine or management, public health or something else? If it's medicine, have you thought about medical school? Seriously. There are several of us in my class. For what it's worth, I decided to get my MSN/NP because I felt the same way and I thought it would be a fast and easier way for me to get to "practice medicine." I quickly learned that it was not cutting it for me and changed my mind and went to medical school. It's been really challenging, but I've really enjoyed it. Something to think about.

smkoepke, I agree that some nurses don't make what they deserve. Solution: quit and find another job. I don't know of any place in the US that doesn't have a nursing shortage and is paying well. Keep in mind, there are places where physicians aren't making much more than the nurses. If it really bothers you, get another job.

 

[Sinnman]

Well.... Someone beat me to the 'reply' button. -Rescind comment about group hug.-

smkoepke. I respect the job that nurses do. Almost everybody else I know does too. We all know it's hard. We all know it can be thankless. Moot point. There will always be some immature people on this forum and in real life that antagonizes the nurses but this is a minority. It's all good. We can all be friends.

Having said that, I found a comment from your post very interesting.

so is it also a waste of hospital resources to have doctors treating sore thorats in the ER and ear infections upper respiratory infections and numerous other medical issues? What about healthy pregnancies? should the nurses just labor the mom and deliver the baby to make it cheaper? What happens when something goes wrong and the lesser educated individual doesn't recognize the signs? Because again cheaper staff could be "trained" to perform a lot of physician centered jobs the same way that you think non- nurses could be used to monitor patients. The problem in both of these situations is when a zebra occurs, or the patient has multiple systems affected by a disease process. THis is why licensed nurses need to take care of nursing functions and licensed physicians need to take care of physicians duties.

Really? Fascinating.

Explain to me why the nursing "powers that be" are so aggressively pushing for increased practice rights and autonomy for nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists, and nurse midwives.

You're using the same argument that the physicians do to prevent less trained personnel from doing their jobs. I love it!!

How do think that affects the respect issue? Think about it.

I don't know you so I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume that you, like me, believe that less trained people shouldn't attempt to practice medicine. If so, no offence meant or taken.

 

[rn29306]

Most of these comments are coming from an individual that is an MA. Guess that stands for medical ASSistant. This person thinks he/she can watch a monitor as well as a telemetry nurse can. Hmmmm. I wonder if MA knows what is going on or how to correct it when a HR or ECG tracing on the monitor isn't right, or even better yet, why that tracing may be right for that patient. Wait - oh that's right, they can't push drugs. I almost forgot. hehe.

MAs think they do the job of nursing but are not compensated for it -thus the apparent jealous attitude. Get over yourself.

 

[rn29306]

Explain to me why the nursing "powers that be" are so aggressively pushing for increased practice rights and autonomy for nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists, and nurse midwives.

You're using the same argument that the physicians do to prevent less trained personnel from doing their jobs. I love it!!

How do think that affects the respect issue? Think about it.

I don't know you so I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume that you, like me, believe that less trained people shouldn't attempt to practice medicine. If so, no offence meant or taken.

Nurse anesthesia is a proven entity for over 100 years. Look up a study done by a guy named Pine or just google or Yahoo! the search "the Pine study" and "anesthesia". I belive his first name is Michael. Just so happens that this guy is a cardiologist that is also a statistics guru. Guess what his findings say - CRNAs do not deliver care that is substandard of anesthesiologists. And no I'm not making this up. The ASA was infuriated and came up with some kind of response that was pure horsehockey from a statistical standpoint and Dr. Pine ripped them an offcial response that blasted them for questioning his study. The ASA has a study that is less than ideal, but slightly leans in the MDA favor. But the point is that the study done that does not discredit CRNA practice WAS DONE BY A PHYSICIAN. Welcome to the thorn in the ASA's ribcage.

 

[mbgRN]

Sinnman... I have thought very seriously about med school. My husband is in the process of applying and it is indeed medicine that I want to know more about. I think I could hack it, just have to get past a less than stellar undergrad career as a bio major. I am currently getting my Masters to be an FNP and will be finished next December... will be interested to see how I enjoy clinicals and the role of FNP vs MD vis a vis what I really want out of this career now that I have been an RN for a while.

To everyone- it is unfortunate that we evaluate roles such as NP's, PA's and CRNA's versus in terms of turf wars instead of seeing how these different types of clinicians can work symbiotically. My friend's father who is an OB-GYN who has an NP do much of his routine visits, preop and post-op appointments... he spends a lot more time in the OR which means more $$$ for the practice... more $$$ that is not only good for the clinicians but that can help bring better services/equipment to the practice, can pay nurses more and attract the best talent, etc.

 

[50960]

A few facts: Everyone knows the PhD part of the MD/PhD program is nothing like an independent PhD in difficulty and scope, so that is no comparison. Med school is probably the most difficult across the board, but there are Many MD's out there who could never have been accepted or completed a PhD in bio or analytical chemistry etc.. In Ca nurses are overpaid and heavily unionized and it is dragging down healthcare. Teachers are underpaid, and the glut of administration above and around them is sucking the taxpayers down. To fix that problem the money needs to go to educators not administrators. Celebrating mediocrity via unionization is never going to equal success in healthcare.

 

[smkoepke]

Well.... Someone beat me to the 'reply' button. -Rescind comment about group hug.-

smkoepke. I respect the job that nurses do. Almost everybody else I know does too. We all know it's hard. We all know it can be thankless. Moot point. There will always be some immature people on this forum and in real life that antagonizes the nurses but this is a minority. It's all good. We can all be friends.

Having said that, I found a comment from your post very interesting.



Really? Fascinating.

Explain to me why the nursing "powers that be" are so aggressively pushing for increased practice rights and autonomy for nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists, and nurse midwives.

You're using the same argument that the physicians do to prevent less trained personnel from doing their jobs. I love it!!

How do think that affects the respect issue? Think about it.

I don't know you so I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume that you, like me, believe that less trained people shouldn't attempt to practice medicine. If so, no offence meant or taken.

You are absolutely right. I am not an NP/CRNA/PA or whatever and have no plans to be. I use the same argument because this is a student doctor forum and i see this same issue hotly debated regarding NP/PA etc... I found it interesting that a med student/or premed would use this same "cheaper" labor logic for nurses when so many of the docs or soon to be docs have a fit about it in regards to their own profession. Nurses have issues with docs using MA's and techs to perform nursing functions and doc's have an issue with nurses performing more autonomously, (though they created AA and PA to work in a very similar fashion). They can all fight it out. I was just pointing out the irony of it. You might note that i have never been one to get into debates over who should have a more autonomous practice. That's for the NP/MD/PA to work out. I appreciate that you respect nurses, I know that many do, I was just taking issue with comments from those that apparently don't, and your right we can all and should all be friends. I enjoy a good debate so no worries here!

 

[smkoepke]

Great! Time for a group hug!!! I agree with most of what's above.

smkoepke, I agree that some nurses don't make what they deserve. Solution: quit and find another job. I don't know of any place in the US that doesn't have a nursing shortage and is paying well. Keep in mind, there are places where physicians aren't making much more than the nurses. If it really bothers you, get another job.

Sinman I respect your experience with this, but it seems to me that is a big reason why we have a nursing shortage. People are unsatisfied and it bothers them so they quit. It seems like a waste, why not improve the conditions and therefore retain experienced staff? money is for some areas a large part of the problem. Same goes for EMS. My area pays right about the national average for nurses, most I know are satisfied with that and therefore we are not hit with a huge shortage, (still qualifiy as underserved.) As for the area where the physicians aren't making much, i don't find that appropriate either. If things are done simply because that's the way it is and always has been, then that's the way they will always be. Why not try for improvement? That's all I'm trying to say guys.

 

[mx_599]

Because again cheaper staff could be "trained" to perform a lot of physician centered jobs the same way that you think non- nurses could be used to monitor patients.

What? You make no sense! It is a telemetry job. You sit and watch cardiac monitors. It is not a nurse position at the hospital! Don't try and tell me a nurse can do this better than me. Get a clue.

THis is why licensed nurses need to take care of nursing functions and licensed physicians need to take care of physicians duties.

Really? no sh it.

Take a look at some of the salary polls at allnurses and see what area is making what.

Assuming that was a website you gave me...Like I would really believe a website designed by nurses, made for nurses, and analyzed by nurses

You appear to think nurses are overpaid, and that the job and schooling are a piece of cake.

I said overpaid to about right. Point being I get sick of the nurses who make 35+/hr complain!

By the way...I never said nursing was easy. However, the schooling is a joke.

If the job is so easy, and nurses are overpaid why on earth do you think there is a huge nursing shortage?

...because people don't take care of themselves.

Think about some of the attitudes on this board. There is a thread right now about how stupid nurses are, among many other inflammatory threads.

I never said nurses were stupid. All I ever referred to was salaries.

Although, I am about to start putting nurses down from this point forward after reading some of the posts about me. I don't appreciate some of the comments made about my qualifications from what appears to be a nurse. I'll get to hers in just a moment.