unhappy nurses?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Sainttpk

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
164
Reaction score
0
Hello folks,

I have no intention of being a nurse, I am actually applying to medical school, but I have noticed that alot of nurses I talk to seem to be unhappy with their career choice. Maybe I am making a generalization, but I am curious is there alot of dissatisfaction among nurses in the field compared to other professions?

T.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Its a very simple problem to diagnose, anyone on this forum will tell you the same thing, this unhappiness mostly stems from underappreciation of nurses and the jobs they perform. Lets face it no one will tell a nurse that he/she is not doing an important job becuase that would be a flat out lie, but heres the rub, if they are doing such a great job why do they not get PAID for it. Nurses are some of the lowest paid health care professionals in the Nation. I can go on forever talking about the reasons why, but basicall it stems from three main reason. (1) Education credentials- lets face it a doctoral degree looks alot better then a Bachelors or worse a diploma. (2) Female dominated profession- If the male ration was 50%> things would be different money wise. (3) History- Pure and simple the struggle between Nurses and doctors is as old as medicine itself, with doctors having greater power and prestige nurses unions are in a constant struggle fro greater pay and benefits.

Now with that said things are looking up, more and more men are joining nursing decreasing its "feminization" and nurse unions are gaining for their members greater pay and better benefits. In a couple more years nursing diplomas will be wiped out and a 4 year degree will become minimum to becoma a registered nurse, so things are looking up.
 
I somehow think that nurses will not be happy until they make the same as physicians. There are many nurses who make 60-80K with 2-4 years post high school... that's not all that bad.

Now consider that the average family practitioner/peds/IM makes 120-140... with a MINIMUM of 11 years post high school training, average 140K debt, longer hours, call, malpractice, etc, etc, etc

There are many jobs that pay worse than nursing (teaching, psychology, certain scientific fields) that are considered 'important' by society. Therefore the I personally do not buy the "we aren't paid enough" reasoning I hear so often.

This 'struggle' between physicians and nurses "with the doctors having greater power and prestige" is BS. There is a FUNDIMENTAL difference in the training between nurses and physicians: Nurses are not trained to diagnose, formulate treatment protocols, etc. Therefore this notion that physicians are "holding down the nurses" or wrongfully making more is absolutly crazy.

Physicians diagnose, make treatment decisions, and deal with the outcomes. While nurses are integral in the administration of the treatment, they are not trained to do the above. That is a very big difference... but listening to posters like the previous they should have same pay/etc as physicians. Crazy.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Winsufr-
I don't think your analysis is complete. To say that The AMA has not acted with an interest in restricting the growth of other professions including nursing and that the economcs is purely a factor of length of training is inaccurate. Medicine is a hierarchy of the physicians' design wherein the spoils have been theirs for most of its history, though it looks as though finally some equalization is taking place. And yet I still agree with you that in terms of other professions especially teaching for a comparative example the pay to sacrafice/education ratio is high for nurses. Where I live in S.F., Ca, nurses make bank. But this is is not, in my opinion, due to training but a well-orgainized powerful union that has the public and everyone else by the balls. I mean who's gonna wash the poo off of grandpa, make sure is catheter is clean, make sure he's eating and that is cardiac enzymes are drawn and that he's getting the proper dose of his medication monitoring his heart rhythm for arrhythmias, that he gets educated on his meds, and so forth. Anyone please stand up...... Not me... Not you and so they can make that money and still not be happy with their work.
I think this unhappiness comes from professional scope. You speak of length of training...what does that mean for a nurse who's been working for 25 years in all kinds of specialties with all kinds of skills. He/she could perform a work up on most patients better than any med student, intern, and one-two year resident as long as they are sharp and professional and have pursued knowledge of patient care with a modicum of intensity. If anyone thinks that this is not the case and that the physician's education is some magic elixir that can only be obtained by the rites of a medical education your just honking your own damn horn. I'm not saying that nurses are in a position to execute medical diagnostics but i am saying that this position has been maintianed through the power of the physician as a professional/political/social pheneomenon and not specifically any length of training. This to me sets up an internal struggle from the getgo wherein no matter what the nurse knows he/she performs only X. If that was my life I would be unhappy. Not all he time. But enough for it to show.--Ben
 
Good reply,
However what you said about the AMA holding back the growth of nurses is simply not true. Keep in mind that nurses went into their profession fully knowing that they would not be the ones diagnosing, making decisions, etc. Yet there is this underlying push (for all non-physicians) to want to do more and more. There must be boundries set for what nurses can and cant do... and I do not see this as professional suppression. If this did not happen why would anyone subject themselves to the training of medical school?
I also agree that a nurse of 25 years experience has loads more clinical experience (and skill) than a first year resident. This is why residencies are so long. Furthermore an experienced nurse will be able to diagnose common things as well as a first year intern. However they are not trained in full differential diagnosis formation or evidence-based evaluation/treatment. Therefore placing the responsibility of diagnosing and treating on a nurse would be inappropriate.

As an interesting aside... I am begining to think boards like this attract the extremes of both sides. It's either a med student/resident complaining about nurses or vise versa. However in the practice that I've seen, the two work quite well together. With the exceptions of hot-heads on either side, I really have seen no flagrant disrespect. But I'm sure others will reply their horror stories...
 
Ok fair enough from the legalistic economic standpoint of maintaining current institutions there must be normative professional boundaries, however, my point is that this does not resemble the way in which human being learn how to do things or how things are done successfully nor does it predict the degree of satisfaction that the participators in such a system will get out of it.
For example, if I'm stranded on an island with an indigenous people if I'm lucky they'll teach me how to survive. I will learn how to hunt and collect food how to obtain fresh water and by some gradual process I may obtain the means marry and support a family there presuming rescue is not possible. Nobody will stop me along the way to award me with an honorary degree in indigenous islanderology. And so because I think the natural learning-doing process in healthcare is so disrupted, I believe inherently it will always maintain lower satisfaction rating from those that the **** falleth upon from on high.
Furthermore the AMA has a notorious history of dirty hardball politics...do some research...and I would expect now that the tables are turning they're are going to catch the fire, so to speak. Never underestimate
a motivated educated group of professionals who have a long history of subjugation. Physicians no longer hold all the trump cards and patient outcomes do not warrant restricting the practice rights of of nursing clinicians...again do some research. What does this mean for me...it means I still want to be a physician but will likely steer clear of certain fields due to what I believe is the inevitable erosion of physician market exclusivity against the enormous debt I'm likely to incur. Maybe Physicians should advocate for more and cheaper oppurtunities for education instead of taking such bellicose postures with every percieved threat, but this is highly unlikely because greed is the common denominator of many things including the hollow cry for better patient care standards that is the false inductive of the physician's education with regards to alot of primary care practice.--Ben.
 
I comes down to money, physicians are billing for the majority of the costs, nursing is a smaller portion, so naturally the power lies with who is bringing in the dollars.

The argument about a nurse with 25 years of experience doing a workup better than the students/residents/etc is true, but somewhere you have to draw the line. There are probably scrub techs who could perform an appy, but how would the public respond if you put the knife in their hands. At least here in the US you have a choice about your career, if you are unhappy don't bitch about it, do something. This board is full of people who have shelved their careers and families to go back to school. I think some people should take some personal responsibility for their decisions in life.
 
Here are some of the main reasons for nurses' dissatisfaction with their jobs:

1. Inadequate staffing/dangerous patient loads.

2. Lack of flexibility with scheduling.

3. Inadequate compensation. While there may be places where nurses make really good money (esp. travelers), there are far too many places that are paying experienced RNs far below $20/hr. Given the level of responsibility nurses have, this is ridiculous.

4. Abusive physicians. (This is both verbal and physical abuse.)

5. Being mandated to work overtime.
 
benelswick said:
Winsufr-
I don't think your analysis is complete. To say that The AMA has not acted with an interest in restricting the growth of other professions including nursing and that the economcs is purely a factor of length of training is inaccurate. Medicine is a hierarchy of the physicians' design wherein the spoils have been theirs for most of its history, though it looks as though finally some equalization is taking place. And yet I still agree with you that in terms of other professions especially teaching for a comparative example the pay to sacrafice/education ratio is high for nurses. Where I live in S.F., Ca, nurses make bank. But this is is not, in my opinion, due to training but a well-orgainized powerful union that has the public and everyone else by the balls. I mean who's gonna wash the poo off of grandpa, make sure is catheter is clean, make sure he's eating and that is cardiac enzymes are drawn and that he's getting the proper dose of his medication monitoring his heart rhythm for arrhythmias, that he gets educated on his meds, and so forth. Anyone please stand up...... Not me... Not you and so they can make that money and still not be happy with their work.
I think this unhappiness comes from professional scope. You speak of length of training...what does that mean for a nurse who's been working for 25 years in all kinds of specialties with all kinds of skills. He/she could perform a work up on most patients better than any med student, intern, and one-two year resident as long as they are sharp and professional and have pursued knowledge of patient care with a modicum of intensity. If anyone thinks that this is not the case and that the physician's education is some magic elixir that can only be obtained by the rites of a medical education your just honking your own damn horn. I'm not saying that nurses are in a position to execute medical diagnostics but i am saying that this position has been maintianed through the power of the physician as a professional/political/social pheneomenon and not specifically any length of training. This to me sets up an internal struggle from the getgo wherein no matter what the nurse knows he/she performs only X. If that was my life I would be unhappy. Not all he time. But enough for it to show.--Ben


After 25 years of doing a job who would not be good at it?
 
fab4fan said:
Here are some of the main reasons for nurses' dissatisfaction with their jobs:

1. Inadequate staffing/dangerous patient loads.

2. Lack of flexibility with scheduling.

3. Inadequate compensation. While there may be places where nurses make really good money (esp. travelers), there are far too many places that are paying experienced RNs far below $20/hr. Given the level of responsibility nurses have, this is ridiculous.

4. Abusive physicians. (This is both verbal and physical abuse.)

5. Being mandated to work overtime.


You just hit the nail on the head. The only thing that you left out is management backing the physicians when many times they should be backing the nurses. I guess it is easier for the hospital to find another nurse after a mistake is made instead of finding another pediatric endorine doc.

Many nurses are disatisfied with there jobs but I don't thing any more than the general population is unhappy with whatever they do. Out of the 2 or 300 nurses that I work with I would say that no more than 30 are so unhappy that they consider a career change, and those that are are simply looking for things that nursing can't provide. I have been nurse for 10 years now and I feel that it is a great job, but I am starting dental school in the fall. Not because I am so unhappy being a nurse, but because I want more than nursing provides. I want more autonomy in my practice, I want to provide for my family in ways that nursing doesn't allow and I want a more hands on practice where my skills will be more appreciated.

There aren't too many professions that allow you to earn 90K/year with 2 years of schooling out there, and although I realize that there are some really crappy nursing positions out there only paying 13/hr, there are also plenty of them paying upwards of 40 or 50/hr. It is really just up to the nurse to figure out how to earn it.
 
fab4fan said:
Here are some of the main reasons for nurses' dissatisfaction with their jobs:

4. Abusive physicians. (This is both verbal and physical abuse.)

Dang, what makes you say that?
 
Sainttpk said:
Hello folks,

I have no intention of being a nurse, I am actually applying to medical school, but I have noticed that alot of nurses I talk to seem to be unhappy with their career choice. Maybe I am making a generalization, but I am curious is there alot of dissatisfaction among nurses in the field compared to other professions?

T.

I love my job. I got into this to practice medicine because that's what I love. I'm a NP and no matter what anyone says I get to dx tx rx all day long, my pts love and trust me, and I got to do it in 6 yrs with a 5 figure debt and a 6 fig income. I couldn't be happier. ;o)
 
TucsonDDS said:
... there are also plenty of them paying upwards of 40 or 50/hr. It is really just up to the nurse to figure out how to earn it.

Where??? Curious? Cali???
 
Members don't see this ad :)
OP, I believe that you are making a generalization. I am a happy nurse, a RN to be exact. I have practiced nursing for over 14 years. I have never wanted to be a doctor for many reasons, long hours, endless call, major debt, expensive liability, limited time with family-never has appealed to me. My career path has enabled me to work as much or as little as I need in order to spend more time with my kids. As with any other field, nursing is not without it’s problems, but they can be overcome. If you are not happy with one job, you are free to leave and find something more suitable...something that you can’t do when you are locked into a contract with a large physicians’ practice or hospital. The money, like one poster said, isn’t that bad, considering the time you have to put into it to become a nurse. Sorry if I step on anyone’s toes with this one. I spent 3 years in college, granted, I had student loans, but they are nothing in comparison with med school. I will not argue that point. I make $50K working 3 days a week working as a staff nurse in a small L & D unit. The benefits are excellent. We are not mandated to work OT, but are compensated with OT bonuses if we are needed to work additional shifts. I do not have to work night shift or weekends, I can’t complain, there are much worse jobs to be had that pay far less. My husband is the main bread winner in our family, so we get along nicely. So forgive me when I’m a little miffed at comments like “nurses will not be happy until they make the same as physicians.” That is simply not true of all of us. I do not want the responsibility, nor the liability of diagnosing or treating patients for that matter. If I did, I would be on the fast track to become a NP, something else that holds no interest for me. I just don’t see where the struggle is between the doctors and the nurses. We are both necessary in the treatment and care of our patients. Where I work, there is a mutual respect between both professions. The physicians that we work with are continuously thanking us for our hard work and complementing our efforts, and in return, we care for their patients as if they were spending a few days at the Hilton. However, I don’t have to have approval or respect from the MD’s for my job satisfaction. The feedback from my patient’s is enough for me. I love what I do, every aspect of my job is satisfying to me. On a side note, something that I find interesting is the perception of the patients’ and their families. We are continuously hearing the same comments “You nurses do all the work and all the doctor does is catch the baby.” I try to keep everything in perspective though. The doctor has seen and treated this patient for months and is actually billing for services leading up to the delivery, in addition to services rendered during delivery. Some people forget this. While hospitalized, the patient is being charged for nursing care, room and board, medications and supplies-not care from the physician. I am more than happy for the doctor to be there during delivery to accept the liability if something goes wrong, as well as to rush to section in an emergency. I totally have respect for them and their profession. Maybe that is a problem for those of you who complain of being disrespected? In most cases, you have to give respect to get it in return. However, if you are working in an area or facility in which you are being treated poorly for no reason or no fault of your own, then maybe it is time for you to move on. I for one would not stand for such maltreatment, never have and never will. Just my 2 cents, couldn’t sit on the sidelines of this age old debate any longer.
 
Hi there,
Most of the nurses that I have worked with are pretty happy with their career choice. Sure it is difficult when there are not enough bodies to take proper care of the patients but I can say the same thing about medicine when there are not enough residents to cover all of the things that we have to cover. You can easily feel overwhelmed and angry that you can't provide the level of care that you want to provide. Patients are sicker and have greater needs in todays environment. Staffing for nursing just hasn't caught up with that fact. You can have an 80-year-old who can take up most of your time in addition to that new post op who may have bleeding and that brittle diabetic that you have to monitor. Add that to six or seven other patients and you have loads of meds and treatments with little help to get them done.

There are not enough teachers, nurses, respiratory therapists etc because these jobs are very difficult to do well. You just cannot do the minimum and get by. Most of the nurses I work with give 100% and are great advocates for the patients that they take care of. It seems that hospital managment had a very difficult time seeing the needs of staffing and the needs of the patients. I hope it gets better.

njbmd :)
 
lloydchristmas said:
I love my job. I got into this to practice medicine because that's what I love. I'm a NP...

Quick, someone call the state medical board! There's an unlicensed person practicing medicine! (note: read with sarcasm) ;)

But seriously, I think this shows how malignant organized nursing organizations/lobbies can be. When it suits their purpose, what advance practice nurses/nurse specialists do is the practice of nursing. Even though they want to practice like physicians, have the independence of physicians, and get paid like physicians. Of course, they want all this now without sacrificing time and money for the education/training or malpractice costs. This will change by the next century when you'll have three choices to become a physician: medical school, osteopathic medical school, or nursing medical school. And if the chiropractic profession doesn't implode, maybe there'll also be chiropractic medical school. :D
 
fab4fan said:
Here are some of the main reasons for nurses' dissatisfaction with their jobs:

1. Inadequate staffing/dangerous patient loads.

2. Lack of flexibility with scheduling.

3. Inadequate compensation. While there may be places where nurses make really good money (esp. travelers), there are far too many places that are paying experienced RNs far below $20/hr. Given the level of responsibility nurses have, this is ridiculous.

4. Abusive physicians. (This is both verbal and physical abuse.)

5. Being mandated to work overtime.

Don't forget abusive patients/families......

Having been a nurse for a number of years, I see those reasons stated above as a big portion of the problem. But another is that nursing often doesn't support itself. I mean nurses who should know better(having worked at the bedside) become managers/administrators and end up being part of the problem. They understaff their units to save money(their job will disapear if they go too far over budget), and become deaf to the phone ringing when they are asked to help out. When a nurse is accused of wrongdoing and the other party is a physician or irate family member, they throw the nurse under the bus. Finally the nurses get tired of the crap and quit, leaving their co-workers to pick up the slack. . Nurses are leaving in droves to enter other professions or take jobs that don't require all the garbage..... :mad: Hospitals need to stop treating nurses like disposable dime a dozen maids!
 
I did say "some"... ;)

As to the poster who questioned why I said "physical abuse from physicians," the articles out there documenting this are legion. A simple google search will give you plenty of reading material. I have had to dodge charts that were thrown (not at me, personally, just in a "temper tantrum"), seen nurses shoved by docs, and seen docs otherwise try to physically intimidate nurses. One co-worker had a doc throw a contaminated syringe (needle still attached) at her. Now in that case, the doc was suspended and ultimately lost his privileges.

No, wait...that's what would have happened in a perfect world. What really happened to the doc? Nothing. And these incidents were not just confined to one facility either.

Most docs out there are not like this, fortunately. But all it takes is one or two to make a nurse's life miserable, particularly a new nurse, who is already anxious. A recent survey reported that 96% of nurses have experienced verbal/physical abuse from a physician. That is just unacceptable.
 
lloydchristmas said:
I love my job. I got into this to practice medicine because that's what I love. I'm a NP and no matter what anyone says I get to dx tx rx all day long, my pts love and trust me, and I got to do it in 6 yrs with a 5 figure debt and a 6 fig income. I couldn't be happier. ;o)

Two nights ago, I was summoned to the ER to see an elderly patient who had been told by his NP to come to the ER and be admitted so he could have an abdominal CT. The NP was working him up for anemia.
Why would you send a patient to ER to get an abdominal CT when you can do it as an outpatient? Poor guy had to sit in the ER for hours.

Needless to say my attending got on the phone, got a hold of the NP and tore her a new one. :laugh:
 
toughlife said:
Needless to say my attending got on the phone, got a hold of the NP and tore her a new one. :laugh:

Jesus, and to think I'm enrolling in NP school because I'm sick of seeing physicians screw up.
 
zenman said:
Jesus, and to think I'm enrolling in NP school because I'm sick of seeing physicians screw up.

No your not.......


Perhaps we could get rid of all doctors, that way we could ensure that our patients recieve only the highest modecum of care from NPs.


Its comments like yours that cause med students like myself (and many of my friends) to really ask ourselves if we would ever hire an NP? Are they all so hostile towards doctors?
 
Happy613 said:
No your not.......


Perhaps we could get rid of all doctors, that way we could ensure that our patients recieve only the highest modecum of care from NPs.


Its comments like yours that cause med students like myself (and many of my friends) to really ask ourselves if we would ever hire an NP? Are they all so hostile towards doctors?

For the record, I'm not hostile towards docs. What med students like you need to realize is that medical education (and nursing education) need updating for the current century. It's difficult, I think, for docs to look at the entire picture when your training is geared to a reductionistic approach. Just facts; that's all.
 
zenman said:
For the record, I'm not hostile towards docs. What med students like you need to realize is that medical education (and nursing education) need updating for the current century. It's difficult, I think, for docs to look at the entire picture when your training is geared to a reductionistic approach. Just facts; that's all.

It's like nails to a blackboard whenever I hear of someone inaccurately describing medical education as if they've actually been through it. Medical education is constantly being updated and to suggest that medical students aren't taught to look at the whole person is ridiculous. However, I do agree that in reality, physicians most often operate on the reductionist model. Personally, I think it's the nature of our current health system and the emphasis on specialized care and procedures. Maybe NPs aren't as pressed for time (I really don't know) but it's somewhat of dream if you could in reality spend the kind of time necessary to evaluate patients as we are taught in medical school. The system just doesn't support primary care as it should, look at the huge income discrepancy between many (sub)specialists and primary care physicians. Already, the primary care physician sees more patients than specialists and yet, they're consistently scraping the bottom of the physician income bucket.
 
zenman said:
For the record, I'm not hostile towards docs. What med students like you need to realize is that medical education (and nursing education) need updating for the current century. It's difficult, I think, for docs to look at the entire picture when your training is geared to a reductionistic approach. Just facts; that's all.

Zenman,

We should always strive to increase the humanistic aspects of medical education.

The notion of the doctor as a removed and distant automaton, unable to see the humanity of a patient I believe is a very outdated stereotype. Perhaps hailing from the same era that viewed nurses as young women soley wishing to get married.

Reshaping the medical culture is a process that has been years in the making and is an ever evovlving endevour. I think great strides have been made, and today medical students are taught how to appreciate and try to understand a patient within various social and cultural contexts. There is a huge push in medical education to infuse medical students with a humanistic view of society at large.

Of course this should be a process that is always movin forward, and I believe it is. If you are ever in New Jersey I would invite you to sit in on one of our Art of medicine classes, ethics sections or cultural competency seminars. Perhaps it would provide you with a more accurate representation of the current thinking in medical education.
 
awdc said:
It's like nails to a blackboard whenever I hear of someone inaccurately describing medical education as if they've actually been through it.

I enjoy studying about those I interact with in order to understand them, the way they process things, etc.. There are plenty of books on medical education. No I have not been through medical school...didn't want to go that route...so much of what I've said is from other physicians. That said, I bet few docs study nurses in order to understand how better to work with them. I've seen physicians who rarely sleep for answering their pages all night and I've seen those who knew how to work with nurses get to sleep all night.

Medical education is constantly being updated and to suggest that medical students aren't taught to look at the whole person is ridiculous. However, I do agree that in reality, physicians most often operate on the reductionist model. Personally, I think it's the nature of our current health system and the emphasis on specialized care and procedures. Maybe NPs aren't as pressed for time (I really don't know) but it's somewhat of dream if you could in reality spend the kind of time necessary to evaluate patients as we are taught in medical school. The system just doesn't support primary care as it should, look at the huge income discrepancy between many (sub)specialists and primary care physicians. Already, the primary care physician sees more patients than specialists and yet, they're consistently scraping the bottom of the physician income bucket.

The system is very much part of the problem and I know medical schools are focusing more on patient relations, etc., and I'm glad for that. I can even remember a few years ago when one of the most important medicines started to be taught in medical schools...nutrition. I would like to hear more about the model your school uses. I know the University of Hawaii started a new system of medical education. I'll check it out soon as I get some sleep.
 
Happy613 said:
Zenman,

We should always strive to increase the humanistic aspects of medical education.

Great, this is one aspect of why "alternative" practitioners have captured so much of the market.

If you are ever in New Jersey I would invite you to sit in on one of our Art of medicine classes, ethics sections or cultural competency seminars. Perhaps it would provide you with a more accurate representation of the current thinking in medical education.

I'll be on the mainland next month to visit kids and parents in Texas and Louisiana before heading on to a seminar in Boston on the art of Japanese Seitai. When is the "Art of Medicine" seminar? And what exactly do they teach in the "art" part considering medicine is so techie oriented? Just wondering.
 
zenman,

The class the art of medicine, is a class that medical students at njms take. The idea of the class is to help students realize that medicine is not an exact science...its an art. We have a physician meet with a group of about 8-12 students once a week for about 3 hours, during which a case is presented and students are asked to evaluate everything from the labs that must be ordered to practicing interviewing techniques on each other. Issue such as domestic violence, sexuality and adolescent health are stressed just to name a few. The goal is to help students think outside the box, and avoid seeing just pathology.

Another interesting excersise we went through was how to use an interperter to convey a diagnosis of TB. We had mock patients, each with a "friend" who was there to play the role of interperter (the idea being it was not a trained medical interperter). We had to explain the dx and counsel them on appropriate treatment options; as well as allay any concerns they had. The encounter was taped in a mock exam room, and reviewed later with pulmonologist from the tb center at umdnj. We also had a similar excersise that dealt with sexual identity and geneder issues.

I believe this is the new trend in medical education and hopefully similar programs will continue to be added to the curriculum.

If you will be in the NJ area PM me and I will see if any sections are meeting :)
 
prince_moses said:
Nurses are some of the lowest paid health care professionals in the Nation.

Actually, besides MDs and DOs, nurses are some of the HIGHEST paid health care workers. In most states, phlebotomists, CNA's, ER Techs, EMT's (basic through Paramedic), radiology techs, medical social workers, hospital transporters, health unit secretaries, child life specialists, mid and low level hospital administrators, pharmacy techs, and hospital chaplains ALL make less than registered nurses. Also, there are few other areas where an associate's degree can command $40,000-$50,000 per year (depending on state) within the first 1-2 years with little experience. Just a little info. ;)

CrazyPremed
 
CrazyPremed said:
Actually, besides MDs and DOs, nurses are some of the HIGHEST paid health care workers. In most states, phlebotomists, CNA's, ER Techs, EMT's (basic through Paramedic), radiology techs, medical social workers, hospital transporters, health unit secretaries, child life specialists, mid and low level hospital administrators, pharmacy techs, and hospital chaplains ALL make less than registered nurses. Also, there are few other areas where an associate's degree can command $40,000-$50,000 per year (depending on state) within the first 1-2 years with little experience. Just a little info. ;)

CrazyPremed


That is very true except that you left one thing out. You didn't mention that all of those jobs except for child life specialists, chaplains and social workers don't require a degree. For the amount of schooling nurses can earn very good money. There aren't many professions where 2 years out of high school you can make 45K/year. And then after a couple of experience you can consitantly make 6 figures if you know when and where to work. Tell me another main stream job where a person with an associates degree can make 100K. The only other thing that you left out is that the ones making the money aren't the unhappy nurses. The unhappy ones are the ones that stay in the crappy jobs bitching about how they don't get paid enough.
 
TucsonDDS said:
That is very true except that you left one thing out. You didn't mention that all of those jobs except for child life specialists, chaplains and social workers don't require a degree. For the amount of schooling nurses can earn very good money. There aren't many professions where 2 years out of high school you can make 45K/year. And then after a couple of experience you can consitantly make 6 figures if you know when and where to work. Tell me another main stream job where a person with an associates degree can make 100K. The only other thing that you left out is that the ones making the money aren't the unhappy nurses. The unhappy ones are the ones that stay in the crappy jobs bitching about how they don't get paid enough.


A 100K as an RN! WOW! What is the average? 40-50k? L.
 
CrazyPremed said:
Actually, besides MDs and DOs, nurses are some of the HIGHEST paid health care workers. In most states, phlebotomists, CNA's, ER Techs, EMT's (basic through Paramedic), radiology techs, medical social workers, hospital transporters, health unit secretaries, child life specialists, mid and low level hospital administrators, pharmacy techs, and hospital chaplains ALL make less than registered nurses. Also, there are few other areas where an associate's degree can command $40,000-$50,000 per year (depending on state) within the first 1-2 years with little experience. Just a little info. ;)

CrazyPremed



Good point, I was hoping someone would get to it. I was a paramedic for 12 years in a county EMS service. I scraped people off of highways, cut them from cars, went into numerous unsecured crime scenes, and resuscitated people in small bathrooms while family members screamed at me. It retrospect, it seems as if it was 110 degrees or pouring torrential rain during a good part of it. With standing orders, I acted autonomously for nearly all of the care that I delivered and often had to make split second decisions for many of my patients. I have been kicked, spit on, kneed, grabbed in the ol' boys, and cursed at on many occasions. My reward for this job? A cool 30k per year is what I was recieving WHEN I LEFT! This is what an associates degree in emergency medicine will get you where I am from (after experience of course). Certainly I stayed in the profession because I loved it, not for the salary. The nurses that I transferred my patients to? They were recieving upwards of 60-70k per year. Those that had respect for us often lamented about how little we were paid for what we did.

In my years on the job, I have seen many nurses, physicians, and paramedics that were not up to par. I have been an advocate for my patients (against both nurses and physicians), only to have to have them dismiss my opinions, misdiagnose, or ignore the patient as drunk/faking/ok/etc. I watched some of these patients die. Somehow "I told you so" always felt so empty. Although everyone makes mistakes occasionally, it is inexcusable to do it with indifference.

Some of the nurses were horrible towards EMS personnel. They would tell us we should not be allowed to do "xyz", belittle us in front of patients and family, and could sometimes be downright hostile. If there was any crap to roll downhill, we were the ones to catch it. For the most part I was friendly with the majority of them and we had a mutual respect for each other; we both had a job to do. But those few seemed to make life hell and tainted my perception of the entire profession.

I am hesitant to get into the nursing board versus EMS debate, but I would like to point out a few things. The nursing board has struggled and lobbied to maintain their stronghold on the nursing profession and the high salaries it possesses by keeping prehospital emergency medicine from advancing. While they feel it is ok for nurses to operate outside of the confines of a hospital, and to challenge the paramedic exam without formal instruction, the reverse is not the case (although paramedics do have limited rights inside of hospitals in my state now). There is also a push by nursing associations to have only nursing staff allowed on aeromedical flights as paramedics are apparently not deemed competent or trainable for that environment. The expanded scope of practice for paramedics is not viewed favorably by the nursing profession either. Quite simply, prehospital providers where I am from view almost the entire nursing profession as arrogant (perhaps the culture is different elsewhere). Most prehospital providers do not believe that they could operate in a peds ward, post op, or even an ER without further training. The reverse is not true of many nurses. Our profession requires unique skills and a unique perspective, a lot of which is taught on the streets. To believe that a nursing degree provides these skills is ridiculous. Having known many paramedics that later went on to become nurses, most felt that the education recieved was inflated just to support the salary. Likewise, most practical skills were taught later on the job.

My intent is not to bash the nursing profession (although I suppose I have vented a bit). But, it is with great irony that I read these same accusations leveled against physicians. I wish that I could have sympathy for those in the nursing profession that feel as if they are underpaid, held back, not respected, and looked down upon by physicians. The truth is, even though I have many friends that are nurses, as a profession, I have little sympathy. Sometimes you reap what you sow. As a whole nurses do an incredible job that is often thankless. But before the profession starts slinging allegations about others, perhaps they should clean up their own profession and the double standards inherent to it.
 
a_ditchdoc said:
Good point, I was hoping someone would get to it. I was a paramedic for 12 years in a county EMS service. I scraped people off of highways, cut them from cars, went into numerous unsecured crime scenes, and resuscitated people in small bathrooms while family members screamed at me. It retrospect, it seems as if it was 110 degrees or pouring torrential rain during a good part of it. With standing orders, I acted autonomously for nearly all of the care that I delivered and often had to make split second decisions for many of my patients. I have been kicked, spit on, kneed, grabbed in the ol' boys, and cursed at on many occasions. My reward for this job? A cool 30k per year is what I was recieving WHEN I LEFT! This is what an associates degree in emergency medicine will get you where I am from (after experience of course). Certainly I stayed in the profession because I loved it, not for the salary. The nurses that I transferred my patients to? They were recieving upwards of 60-70k per year. Those that had respect for us often lamented about how little we were paid for what we did.

In my years on the job, I have seen many nurses, physicians, and paramedics that were not up to par. I have been an advocate for my patients (against both nurses and physicians), only to have to have them dismiss my opinions, misdiagnose, or ignore the patient as drunk/faking/ok/etc. I watched some of these patients die. Somehow "I told you so" always felt so empty. Although everyone makes mistakes occasionally, it is inexcusable to do it with indifference.

Some of the nurses were horrible towards EMS personnel. They would tell us we should not be allowed to do "xyz", belittle us in front of patients and family, and could sometimes be downright hostile. If there was any crap to roll downhill, we were the ones to catch it. For the most part I was friendly with the majority of them and we had a mutual respect for each other; we both had a job to do. But those few seemed to make life hell and tainted my perception of the entire profession.

I am hesitant to get into the nursing board versus EMS debate, but I would like to point out a few things. The nursing board has struggled and lobbied to maintain their stronghold on the nursing profession and the high salaries it possesses by keeping prehospital emergency medicine from advancing. While they feel it is ok for nurses to operate outside of the confines of a hospital, and to challenge the paramedic exam without formal instruction, the reverse is not the case (although paramedics do have limited rights inside of hospitals in my state now). There is also a push by nursing associations to have only nursing staff allowed on aeromedical flights as paramedics are apparently not deemed competent or trainable for that environment. The expanded scope of practice for paramedics is not viewed favorably by the nursing profession either. Quite simply, prehospital providers where I am from view almost the entire nursing profession as arrogant (perhaps the culture is different elsewhere). Most prehospital providers do not believe that they could operate in a peds ward, post op, or even an ER without further training. The reverse is not true of many nurses. Our profession requires unique skills and a unique perspective, a lot of which is taught on the streets. To believe that a nursing degree provides these skills is ridiculous. Having known many paramedics that later went on to become nurses, most felt that the education recieved was inflated just to support the salary. Likewise, most practical skills were taught later on the job.

My intent is not to bash the nursing profession (although I suppose I have vented a bit). But, it is with great irony that I read these same accusations leveled against physicians. I wish that I could have sympathy for those in the nursing profession that feel as if they are underpaid, held back, not respected, and looked down upon by physicians. The truth is, even though I have many friends that are nurses, as a profession, I have little sympathy. Sometimes you reap what you sow. As a whole nurses do an incredible job that is often thankless. But before the profession starts slinging allegations about others, perhaps they should clean up their own profession and the double standards inherent to it.


Wow, great post! I totally know where you are coming from. I went to college in a rural area, in order to save money on houseing I joined the local volunteer fire department which offered a "bunker program" for students, It gave you a free room in the fire station in return for fullfilling a certian amount of shifts per week. Inherent in this was that you go through the state fire course. In any case to make a long story short I joined, went through training, never got a room in the station, but loved it so much that I rode with an engine company for two years.

Many of the firefighters were paramedics who worked for a local EMS company who couldn't afford to get thier own apartments so they were "bunkers" (one of the reasons there were no rooms left).

I was shocked that these paramedics who gave so much, made so little. It was just plain wrong..... and the whole issue of not having a paramedic on the medivac....don't even get me started....that is exactly where you NEED a paramedic.
 
Not all people with nursing degrees (RN's ) have an ADN, some of us have a BS. That is something that bothers me, when people don't even realize many RNs may have a 4 yr degree and complain about how ALL the RNs with their AD's etc....just a point. (This is not to say anything bad about ADN nurses but I think it's funny when people who make assumptions that nurses never went to college or blah blah or all nurses have is an AD)

Happy613 said:
Wow, great post! I totally know where you are coming from. I went to college in a rural area, in order to save money on houseing I joined the local volunteer fire department which offered a "bunker program" for students, It gave you a free room in the fire station in return for fullfilling a certian amount of shifts per week. Inherent in this was that you go through the state fire course. In any case to make a long story short I joined, went through training, never got a room in the station, but loved it so much that I rode with an engine company for two years.

Many of the firefighters were paramedics who worked for a local EMS company who couldn't afford to get thier own apartments so they were "bunkers" (one of the reasons there were no rooms left).

I was shocked that these paramedics who gave so much, made so little. It was just plain wrong..... and the whole issue of not having a paramedic on the medivac....don't even get me started....that is exactly where you NEED a paramedic.
 
Noeljan said:
Not all people with nursing degrees (RN's ) have an ADN, some of us have a BS. That is something that bothers me, when people don't even realize many RNs may have a 4 yr degree and complain about how ALL the RNs with their AD's etc....just a point. (This is not to say anything bad about ADN nurses but I think it's funny when people who make assumptions that nurses never went to college or blah blah or all nurses have is an AD)


No, I was not assuming that all nurses have ADN. Not all paramedics do either. I have two associates degrees, a BS, and am currently working on my MD. And, just to clarify another matter, the two additional years of my BS did little to help my skills as a paramedic. I am sure most nurses would agree that the additional two years are primarily administration etc that do not necessarily reflect very heavily on clinical nursing. But I do think a well rounded education helps any profession become stronger.
 
I dont know much about the paramedic education/degree, so I can't really comment in comparison. All I can speak for is my own experiences, and my degree is in nursing (a 4 year degree in nursing, I also have my BS in biology). The 4 year I did in nursing was just like any other 4 year degree, you got your prereqs, your gen eds, then your upper levels and clinicals. My bio program was a very similiar program (in terms of you take a certain number of prereqs and gen eds and then have your upper level coursework and research). How much do any of our "non major" classes help any of with ANY 4 year degree? I won't answer that, it's your own opinion.
Oh I have a question, was your 4 year degree in paramedics? My 4 year degree was in nursing. As far as administrative courses, I took one course like that my entire 4 years so I dont know what you mean. We could sit around and say everyone's 4 year degrees were not important if we want.

a_ditchdoc said:
No, I was not assuming that all nurses have ADN. Not all paramedics do either. I have two associates degrees, a BS, and am currently working on my MD. And, just to clarify another matter, the two additional years of my BS did little to help my skills as a paramedic. I am sure most nurses would agree that the additional two years are primarily administration etc that do not necessarily reflect very heavily on clinical nursing. But I do think a well rounded education helps any profession become stronger.
 
I agree that EMTs deserve much more money than they get, I also agree that **** definitely rolls downhill and that nurses many times treat other providers like crap. The ones that treat CNA's, EMT's, housekeeping, Food service, radiology and just about everyone else like crap are the same ones who treat everyone in their lives like crap. These are the unhappy nurses that we are talking about. Everyone has their job and their role in which they practice and as I see it, if they are performing their duties, then they should be treated like a valuable member of the team. As far as the BSN/ADN debates I think it is stupid. Many of the best nurses I know only have diploma degrees and their skills and leadership abilities should be appreciated. Unfortunately hospitals and the administration seems to think that more education in stupid "theory" classes will make a better nurse. I don't think that BS prepared nurses are any better as a whole then ADN's. The difference in the two isn't clinical training, it's no extra patho/phys and it isn't any extra knowledge that leads to better patient care. All that the BS will get you is a couple of extra classes in leadership, nursing theory (boooorrrrriiiiinnnnngggg) and deligation.
 
TucsonDDS said:
I don't think that BS prepared nurses are any better as a whole then ADN's. The difference in the two isn't clinical training, it's no extra patho/phys and it isn't any extra knowledge that leads to better patient care. All that the BS will get you is a couple of extra classes in leadership, nursing theory (boooorrrrriiiiinnnnngggg) and deligation.

Counterpoint: Some community colleges are great and others are rather lacking..This is not a broad, sweeping statement about ADNs, just a comment about one community college in northern Georgia. Their pharm class was self-taught with a notebook thinner than what you can get at a bookstore, the 3 subject blank paper kind. Tests were on a computer. This all summed up to no teacher involvement. Nursing education (ASN or BSN does not prepare the graduate for the ER or ICU. Most institutions will take new graduates with a contract for 2-3 years. The learning curve your first year out will be straight up. It took 35K in 2001 for our institution to get a new grad up and running in the units. Can't comment on ER, but program was similar.

I could not agree more with the poster about EMS workers not earning what they should. In a society that worships skanky Paris Hilton for talking on the phone during obviously uninvolved and detached sex rather than pay the men and women that save lives and protect them (fire, EMS and the po-po), we as a whole have a kind of skewed picture of what is really important. Yet who do we all depend on to provide unbiased and compassionate care should an emergency arise? I worked with EMS as a nurse on a critical care transport unit. I can vouch for the professionalism of quality EMS providers and these guys were top notch. What I think is lacking in EMS is a standard uniformity of care. EMS services vary not only state to state, but county to county. Bad services give all providers a bad name not only in EMS, but also nursing, pharm, and certainly MD ranks. God I miss those EMS days.

Oh and BSN = my ticket to CRNA school. Sometimes you gotta jump thru the hoops to get to where you want. Tenth grade history teacher's comment echos in my head everytime a OR RN circulator or unit nurse tries to let poo roll my way - "Play the game son".
 
Noeljan said:
I dont know much about the paramedic education/degree, so I can't really comment in comparison. All I can speak for is my own experiences, and my degree is in nursing (a 4 year degree in nursing, I also have my BS in biology). The 4 year I did in nursing was just like any other 4 year degree, you got your prereqs, your gen eds, then your upper levels and clinicals. My bio program was a very similiar program (in terms of you take a certain number of prereqs and gen eds and then have your upper level coursework and research). How much do any of our "non major" classes help any of with ANY 4 year degree? I won't answer that, it's your own opinion.
Oh I have a question, was your 4 year degree in paramedics? My 4 year degree was in nursing. As far as administrative courses, I took one course like that my entire 4 years so I dont know what you mean. We could sit around and say everyone's 4 year degrees were not important if we want.


A BS in nursing is just that - BULL S*&T.
 
excuse me but have you been through EITHER program? How the heck would you know EXACTLY what each was composed of, and what we learn. You really sound like you dont know at all, and maybe just listening to the opinions of a few people. It's funny how people who have not been through other schooling (is nurses who comment on med school, etc) get screamed at becasuse they didn't go through it. Why is it that you can act as if you went through nursing school?
I don't know what youi mean about waste and blah blah but thanks a lot for basically saying my degree is worthless.

TucsonDDS said:
I agree that EMTs deserve much more money than they get, I also agree that **** definitely rolls downhill and that nurses many times treat other providers like crap. The ones that treat CNA's, EMT's, housekeeping, Food service, radiology and just about everyone else like crap are the same ones who treat everyone in their lives like crap. These are the unhappy nurses that we are talking about. Everyone has their job and their role in which they practice and as I see it, if they are performing their duties, then they should be treated like a valuable member of the team. As far as the BSN/ADN debates I think it is stupid. Many of the best nurses I know only have diploma degrees and their skills and leadership abilities should be appreciated. Unfortunately hospitals and the administration seems to think that more education in stupid "theory" classes will make a better nurse. I don't think that BS prepared nurses are any better as a whole then ADN's. The difference in the two isn't clinical training, it's no extra patho/phys and it isn't any extra knowledge that leads to better patient care. All that the BS will get you is a couple of extra classes in leadership, nursing theory (boooorrrrriiiiinnnnngggg) and deligation.
 
ooo then I guess your 4 year BS degree was the same.
lawguil said:
A BS in nursing is just that - BULL S*&T.
 
rn29306 said:
Counterpoint: Some community colleges are great and others are rather lacking..This is not a broad, sweeping statement about ADNs, just a comment about one community college in northern Georgia. Their pharm class was self-taught with a notebook thinner than what you can get at a bookstore, the 3 subject blank paper kind. Tests were on a computer. This all summed up to no teacher involvement. Nursing education (ASN or BSN does not prepare the graduate for the ER or ICU. Most institutions will take new graduates with a contract for 2-3 years. The learning curve your first year out will be straight up. It took 35K in 2001 for our institution to get a new grad up and running in the units. Can't comment on ER, but program was similar.

I could not agree more with the poster about EMS workers not earning what they should. In a society that worships skanky Paris Hilton for talking on the phone during obviously uninvolved and detached sex rather than pay the men and women that save lives and protect them (fire, EMS and the po-po), we as a whole have a kind of skewed picture of what is really important. Yet who do we all depend on to provide unbiased and compassionate care should an emergency arise? I worked with EMS as a nurse on a critical care transport unit. I can vouch for the professionalism of quality EMS providers and these guys were top notch. What I think is lacking in EMS is a standard uniformity of care. EMS services vary not only state to state, but county to county. Bad services give all providers a bad name not only in EMS, but also nursing, pharm, and certainly MD ranks. God I miss those EMS days.

Oh and BSN = my ticket to CRNA school. Sometimes you gotta jump thru the hoops to get to where you want. Tenth grade history teacher's comment echos in my head everytime a OR RN circulator or unit nurse tries to let poo roll my way - "Play the game son".


I agree that there may be some crappy schools out there but there are also some crappy BSN programs as well. The University of Arizona has an accelerated BSN program if you already have your Bachelors in anything. The program is 14 months. The nurses that I have worked with going through this program are definitely lacking in clinical time. They do very few procedures during there 14 months and are taught to deligate tasks to the CNAs. My feeling is that the nurse needs to know how to draw blood, place a foley, pack a belly and everything else so they can be resources to the techs when the tech can't get the blood or is to busy to get on something right away. Just having a bachelors doesn't make you a better nurse.

It is very true that if you aspire to become something more than a floor nurse you will have to have a BS. My BS was my ticket to my DDS. Are you a CRNA now or are you in school? I was just trying to talk one of my coworkers into going to the new school up in Pheonix, do you know anything about that school?
 
Noeljan said:
excuse me but have you been through EITHER program? How the heck would you know EXACTLY what each was composed of, and what we learn. You really sound like you dont know at all, and maybe just listening to the opinions of a few people. It's funny how people who have not been through other schooling (is nurses who comment on med school, etc) get screamed at becasuse they didn't go through it. Why is it that you can act as if you went through nursing school?
I don't know what youi mean about waste and blah blah but thanks a lot for basically saying my degree is worthless.


I never said that your degree is worthless, I have the same degree and I have been a nurse for the past 10 years doing everything from Psyche, school nursing, administration through PICU and Bone Marrow Transplant. Believe it or not when working on the floor your degree is worth exactly the same as the associates that your co-workers have. People who believe that just having a BSN makes them a better nurse really need to pull their heads out of their arses and listen to that Diploma prepared nurse sitting a couple of rooms down from you. The degree doesn't make the nurse, the nurses drive and willingness to learn from others makes a good nurse, just like in any profession. I have worked literally with a few hundred different nurses and the good ones aren't the ones flaunting their BSs or MSs. Having a bachelors is something to be proud of and will open other doors but it doesn't deserve any more respect.
 
HMM when did I EVER say BSN's make better nurses than ADN's....i never did. That wasn't even the point of my comment before people themselves have to start for some reason throwing in oh BSN is bull ..... or ADNs are way better, etc etc. The entire point of my argument was that PEOPLE (doctors, the public,ect) always make comments like ....nurses never went to college, they dont have degrees wo do they think they are making 40,000, etc. Now, after completing my BSN and my BS in biology I can tell you that a nursing degree took far more work than my bio degree. I just don't get people who had for example a 4 year degree in english or anything before grad school, claiming how THEY actually went to college and NO nurses do. I dont know about you, but I find that really offensive and kind of ignorant. It is not even correct. Then when you state the truth that you indeed went to college people have to turn it into a "Nurses don't need a BSN" etc, or BS= bull .... Because they really don't know what to say in terms of WE BOTH HAVE 4 YEAR DEGREES! The whole BSN vs ADN I really don't care either way. I have seen good from both ends. I had the most amazing preceptor who was an ADN. You also have to remember,a lot of younger people were not even aware of the whole diplma/ADN before hitting clinicals. How would we? (unless we knew some nurses before).
TucsonDDS said:
I never said that your degree is worthless, I have the same degree and I have been a nurse for the past 10 years doing everything from Psyche, school nursing, administration through PICU and Bone Marrow Transplant. Believe it or not when working on the floor your degree is worth exactly the same as the associates that your co-workers have. People who believe that just having a BSN makes them a better nurse really need to pull their heads out of their arses and listen to that Diploma prepared nurse sitting a couple of rooms down from you. The degree doesn't make the nurse, the nurses drive and willingness to learn from others makes a good nurse, just like in any profession. I have worked literally with a few hundred different nurses and the good ones aren't the ones flaunting their BSs or MSs. Having a bachelors is something to be proud of and will open other doors but it doesn't deserve any more respect.
 
Noeljan said:
HMM when did I EVER say BSN's make better nurses than ADN's....i never did. That wasn't even the point of my comment before people themselves have to start for some reason throwing in oh BSN is bull ..... or ADNs are way better, etc etc. The entire point of my argument was that PEOPLE (doctors, the public,ect) always make comments like ....nurses never went to college, they dont have degrees wo do they think they are making 40,000, etc. Now, after completing my BSN and my BS in biology I can tell you that a nursing degree took far more work than my bio degree. I just don't get people who had for example a 4 year degree in english or anything before grad school, claiming how THEY actually went to college and NO nurses do. I dont know about you, but I find that really offensive and kind of ignorant. It is not even correct. Then when you state the truth that you indeed went to college people have to turn it into a "Nurses don't need a BSN" etc, or BS= bull .... Because they really don't know what to say in terms of WE BOTH HAVE 4 YEAR DEGREES! The whole BSN vs ADN I really don't care either way. I have seen good from both ends. I had the most amazing preceptor who was an ADN. You also have to remember,a lot of younger people were not even aware of the whole diplma/ADN before hitting clinicals. How would we? (unless we knew some nurses before).



I don't know many people who think that poorly of nurses to think that they didn't go to college. Nursing is a great profession and having a BSN is very valuable if you plan on teaching or going into management or continueing your education. Good for you that you got your BSN, it is something to be proud of. The BSN/ADN thing seems to be a bit of a sore subject so I will drop it.
I see that you are in New York, where abouts?? I am moving out to Buffalo to start dental school in the fall (talk about an under appreciated profession) and was wondering what the job market is like. I signed up with Nurse Finders so hopefully I can get a few shifts a month for a little extra money that my student loans don't pay for.
Have a good day, I am off to bed. I just worked my 10 out of 12 days (12hr nights) and I am ready to hit the sack. Just 2 more nights and it is time for vacation.
 
TucsonDDS said:
Are you a CRNA now or are you in school? I was just trying to talk one of my coworkers into going to the new school up in Pheonix, do you know anything about that school?



Thanks for asking - I'm about 1/2 way through a program in TN. Just finished one of our weekly 16 hour in-house rotations. Call rooms suck btw. Can't speak for the Pheonix program, but you generally do not find unhappy CRNAs. This has been the best experience in my life and I have found no one that regrets it. All you have to do is suck it up for 27-31 intense months. Good luck with the dental program. My best friend just graduated the Medical College of Georgia's program and he is doing VERY well.
 
Noeljan said:
HMM when did I EVER say BSN's make better nurses than ADN's....i never did. That wasn't even the point of my comment before people themselves have to start for some reason throwing in oh BSN is bull ..... or ADNs are way better, etc etc. The entire point of my argument was that PEOPLE (doctors, the public,ect) always make comments like ....nurses never went to college, they dont have degrees wo do they think they are making 40,000, etc. Now, after completing my BSN and my BS in biology I can tell you that a nursing degree took far more work than my bio degree. I just don't get people who had for example a 4 year degree in english or anything before grad school, claiming how THEY actually went to college and NO nurses do. I dont know about you, but I find that really offensive and kind of ignorant. It is not even correct. Then when you state the truth that you indeed went to college people have to turn it into a "Nurses don't need a BSN" etc, or BS= bull .... Because they really don't know what to say in terms of WE BOTH HAVE 4 YEAR DEGREES! The whole BSN vs ADN I really don't care either way. I have seen good from both ends. I had the most amazing preceptor who was an ADN. You also have to remember,a lot of younger people were not even aware of the whole diplma/ADN before hitting clinicals. How would we? (unless we knew some nurses before).

Get a grip. You're splattering words all over this thread and you're sounding very nursish - willing to die for your "degree". Trust me; you're suffering from the "what I did and the way that I did it are better than anyone else’s way that they did it" syndrome. BTW, an undergraduate degree in English is considered an academic degree or liberal arts degree. It is considered by academics to be one of the most challenging degrees to earn and requires a level of intellectual curiosity that you wouldn't see in your typical nursing population.
 
umm you are obviously the one who needs t get a grip, and thinks they are "better" than certain people. It was you who had to throw out the immature BS=Bull .... in nursing. By the way you really have no idea what you are talking about, I sound very "nursish" Wow what a great defense of yours for saying whatever you want to say about a certain degree and people not being able to defend it. You don't know me, you don't know my intellectual abilities, you don't even know what I currently do. I am dont responding to you. By the way, I really don't know much about the Engligh degree, but I do know two former sorority sisters of mine who were english majors (who picked that because they couldn't get into to any other major). I love the girls to death, but they will be the first to tell you they are not the best when it comes to school.
Take care mr. authority on EVERYones degree and intelligence level.

lawguil said:
Get a grip. You're splattering words all over this thread and you're sounding very nursish - willing to die for your "degree". Trust me; you're suffering from the "what I did and the way that I did it are better than anyone else’s way that they did it" syndrome. BTW, an undergraduate degree in English is considered an academic degree or liberal arts degree. It is considered by academics to be one of the most challenging degrees to earn and requires a level of intellectual curiosity that you wouldn't see in your typical nursing population.
 
Noeljan said:
umm you are obviously the one who needs t get a grip, and thinks they are "better" than certain people. It was you who had to throw out the immature BS=Bull .... in nursing. By the way you really have no idea what you are talking about, I sound very "nursish" Wow what a great defense of yours for saying whatever you want to say about a certain degree and people not being able to defend it. You don't know me, you don't know my intellectual abilities, you don't even know what I currently do. I am dont responding to you. By the way, I really don't know much about the Engligh degree, but I do know two former sorority sisters of mine who were english majors (who picked that because they couldn't get into to any other major). I love the girls to death, but they will be the first to tell you they are not the best when it comes to school.
Take care mr. authority on EVERYones degree and intelligence level.

I'm not bashing the nursing population, but PLEEEEESE understand that it isn't an academic degree. It's a professional degree program that is very targeted, thus you are awarded a BS as opposed to a BA in nursing. An English degree would warrant the BA degree. I'm not caught up in alphabet game or where you went to school contest, but they are reflective of you on a personal level. It's clear that you are or were a student of nursing who had very little understanding of academia outside the ward in which you recieved you education. All I'm saying is that there is a whole world happenig all round you. Tune into it once in a while. L.
 
OMG you are soooo mean I can't even believe it. I don't care what you say though, my BS in nursing is an academic degree just as my BS that I earned in biology is. Ok so now a BS is not an academic degree? WTF.....Last time I checked in my bio program the BA is easier to obtain than the BS.
whatever meanie! :p
lawguil said:
I'm not bashing the nursing population, but PLEEEEESE understand that it isn't an academic degree. It's a professional degree program that is very targeted, thus you are awarded a BS as opposed to a BA in nursing. An English degree would warrant the BA degree. I'm not caught up in alphabet game or where you went to school contest, but they are reflective of you on a personal level. It's clear that you are or were a student of nursing who had very little understanding of academia outside the ward in which you recieved you education. All I'm saying is that there is a whole world happenig all round you. Tune into it once in a while. L.
 
By the way, this is the most ridiculous, untrue thing I have ever heard. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. I am personally well educated enough to never make such a statement about a person I know nothing about. For all you know, I could be a lot more educated than you think. Oh and by the way, you know nothing about me, my education, or personality so you really shouldn't be making such comments.

"I'm not caught up in alphabet game or where you went to school contest, but they are reflective of you on a personal level. It's clear that you are or were a student of nursing who had very little understanding of academia outside the ward in which you recieved you education. "
 
Top