United health care ceo shot dead

[kidthor]

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Assuming the X-ray was his, this is an underrated comment. One of my partners pointed this out today and feel like I'm an idiot for missing the details.

Yeah wtf is up with that instrumentation? I’m no surgeon obviously but it looks odd to me. I’m curious with the ortho/spine people think.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

That is incorrect. Doctors are allowed to unionize to negotiate with the hospital administration if they are hospital employees. However, they are banned from unionizing to negotiate with insurance companies and Medicare.

Nobody is even trying to unionize, and no one wants to.

Only completely powerless and lower skill workers do this stuff. To wrangle any group of physicians who are high achievers would be absolutely impossible and result in lower pay for a lot of them.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

They could (jury nullification) but they surely won't.


The OJ trial was tainted by police misconduct and incompetent prosecution. He claimed innocence 🙄 whereas this guy wrote a manifesto.


Nah

Seems far more likely that the jury is going to get a presentation on the charitable life and times of the deceased with his grieving widow and children there in the courtroom, and this guy will have a nonzero number of outbursts in court because he's a lunatic (who happens to be correct about health insurance industry). They'll take enough time to deliberate in order to have a snack and some refreshments, then they'll be back with a guilty verdict.

What’s this guy correct about exactly?

I am thoroughly unimpressed by anyone who laughs off or celebrates people with families who have committed no crime being shot in cold blood by a psychotic rich kid.

This is just scapegoating to cover CMS from how horrible they are. They are the real enemy, not the corporate insurances that doctors actually take.

 

[aneftp]

What’s this guy correct about exactly?

I am thoroughly unimpressed by anyone who laughs off or celebrates people with families who have committed no crime being shot in cold blood by a psychotic rich kid.

This is just scapegoating to cover CMS from how horrible they are. They are the real enemy, not the corporate insurances that doctors actually take.

The shooter is correct about the corporate greed of health insurance.

Who do you think lobbied (to make no surprise bill into law?)

“
Yes, UnitedHealthcare supported the No Surprises Act (NSA) of 2020:

The ceo killing was just a statement killing.

That’s why I also said I support usap vs United healthcare. It’s gorilla fighting a bigger gorilla. And unfortunately the bigger gorilla is more in the FTC lady’s ear and she brought their ideology when she’s so stupid not to see what United healthcare really wanted to do….increase profit.

You really think lowering usap billing rates would lower patients insurance premiums? No. It’s pads United healthcare bottom line. United healthcare also gets into fights with local hospital systems like in Orlando that essentially have a duolopy with two mega hospitals systems that control 80% of market share. Again. Gorilla fighting gorilla. These two hospital systems charge an insane (and collect and insane amount of facility fees) and United healthcare hates its because it lowers their bottom line

While United healthcare does legally commit crimes.

Their lobby power is tremendous.

There is no scapegoating anything.

We know healthcare costs are out of control. Docs are only part of a problem. We all know the data. Docs salaries only make up 6% of total healthcare costs. It was 15% of total healthcare spending was a portion of doctor salaries when I started medical school almost 30 years ago.

Insurance costs are sky high.

Look at non subsidized healthcare on the exchanges a family of four with a halfway decent network coverage costs in excess of $2000/month plus 10k out of pocket. You can get some shady less coverage and less network for cheaper but you get the drift. It literally will cost you 30k plus in premiums and deductibles before a single penny is paid out.

Like one of the docs here said he pays close to 40k a year in healthcare. And I’m assuming he and his family are pretty healthy.

That’s pure profit for united healthcare.

 

[abolt18]

What’s this guy correct about exactly?

I am thoroughly unimpressed by anyone who laughs off or celebrates people with families who have committed no crime being shot in cold blood by a psychotic rich kid.

This is just scapegoating to cover CMS from how horrible they are. They are the real enemy, not the corporate insurances that doctors actually take.

Just because someone didn't break the law, doesn't mean they didn't commit a crime... Legalized crime is literally what the insurance companies live for. Their lobbies are the only reason their behaviors aren't against the law, but that doesn't justify their behaviors in any way.

(This isn't me supporting his murder, only arguing that the man was in no way walking around with clean hands as the CEO of one of these horrible organizations.)

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Just because someone didn't break the law, doesn't mean they didn't commit a crime... Legalized crime is literally what the insurance companies live for. Their lobbies are the only reason their behaviors aren't against the law, but that doesn't justify their behaviors in any way.

(This isn't me supporting his murder, only arguing that the man was in no way walking around with clean hands as the CEO of one of these horrible organizations.)

Sounds like Hammurabi's code to me. Maybe we can go back to honor killings to revolutionize our society.

The shooter is correct about the corporate greed of health insurance.

Who do you think lobbied (to make no surprise bill into law?)

“
Yes, UnitedHealthcare supported the No Surprises Act (NSA) of 2020:

The ceo killing was just a statement killing.

That’s why I also said I support usap vs United healthcare. It’s gorilla fighting a bigger gorilla. And unfortunately the bigger gorilla is more in the FTC lady’s ear and she brought their ideology when she’s so stupid not to see what United healthcare really wanted to do….increase profit.

You really think lowering usap billing rates would lower patients insurance premiums? No. It’s pads United healthcare bottom line. United healthcare also gets into fights with local hospital systems like in Orlando that essentially have a duolopy with two mega hospitals systems that control 80% of market share. Again. Gorilla fighting gorilla. These two hospital systems charge an insane (and collect and insane amount of facility fees) and United healthcare hates its because it lowers their bottom line

While United healthcare does legally commit crimes.

Their lobby power is tremendous.

There is no scapegoating anything.

We know healthcare costs are out of control. Docs are only part of a problem. We all know the data. Docs salaries only make up 6% of total healthcare costs. It was 15% of total healthcare spending was a portion of doctor salaries when I started medical school almost 30 years ago.

Insurance costs are sky high.

Look at non subsidized healthcare on the exchanges a family of four with a halfway decent network coverage costs in excess of $2000/month plus 10k out of pocket. You can get some shady less coverage and less network for cheaper but you get the drift. It literally will cost you 30k plus in premiums and deductibles before a single penny is paid out.

Like one of the docs here said he pays close to 40k a year in healthcare. And I’m assuming he and his family are pretty healthy.

That’s pure profit for united healthcare.

No one is forcing him to buy 40k a year worth of insurance. He's free to let him and his family go without insurance, and enjoy looking over his shoulder for the rest of his unprotected time. He's also free to buy bad insurance and wait in line with the Medicaid patients. No one's forcing him to pay that much, I guarantee it.

Nice things cost money. Year long ICU stays for everyone, lifetime dialysis for anyone and everyone, ECMO for any dementia patients based on family's wishes, miracle biologic drugs, unlimited EMTALA visits for 330 million people. All of it costs a lot of money, and that money means we've got actually smart people going into medicine in the US, and high quality equipment and facilities. It also means a get out of jail free card for the population in this world that treats their bodies the worst of any in the history of the world.

Get out of jail free cards for everyone, and a system that takes care of you to the absolute maximum no matter what you do or how you mistreat your body or your family's body, costs a ton of money.

People in America are just upset that their money goes to other people who are worse off than they are, because we decided that infinite medical care for anyone who wants it is the ideal system.

 

[anonperson]

Just because someone didn't break the law, doesn't mean they didn't commit a crime... Legalized crime is literally what the insurance companies live for. Their lobbies are the only reason their behaviors aren't against the law, but that doesn't justify their behaviors in any way.

(This isn't me supporting his murder, only arguing that the man was in no way walking around with clean hands as the CEO of one of these horrible organizations.)

The CEO was dirty. I thought he was getting investigated for insider trading.

Regardless, the sentence for that isn't murder.

 

[pgg]

What’s this guy correct about exactly?

How is it possible, that a full week after the event, you're still oblivious to the chief complaint something like 90% of the country has about healthcare insurance?

I described in detail above why "insurance" is the wrong solution to the problem of funding healthcare and why single payer, government run, tax funded coverage is the answer.

Health insurance is a parasitic system that diverts manpower and money from the actual delivery of healthcare, while introducing additional harms.

I am thoroughly unimpressed by anyone who laughs off or celebrates people with families who have committed no crime being shot in cold blood by a psychotic rich kid.

I don't see anyone here celebrating this crime.

This is just scapegoating to cover CMS from how horrible they are. They are the real enemy, not the corporate insurances that doctors actually take.

Well ... that's one take.

 

[anonperson]

The shooter is correct about the corporate greed of health insurance.

Who do you think lobbied (to make no surprise bill into law?)

“
Yes, UnitedHealthcare supported the No Surprises Act (NSA) of 2020:

The ceo killing was just a statement killing.

That’s why I also said I support usap vs United healthcare. It’s gorilla fighting a bigger gorilla. And unfortunately the bigger gorilla is more in the FTC lady’s ear and she brought their ideology when she’s so stupid not to see what United healthcare really wanted to do….increase profit.

You really think lowering usap billing rates would lower patients insurance premiums? No. It’s pads United healthcare bottom line. United healthcare also gets into fights with local hospital systems like in Orlando that essentially have a duolopy with two mega hospitals systems that control 80% of market share. Again. Gorilla fighting gorilla. These two hospital systems charge an insane (and collect and insane amount of facility fees) and United healthcare hates its because it lowers their bottom line

While United healthcare does legally commit crimes.

Their lobby power is tremendous.

There is no scapegoating anything.

We know healthcare costs are out of control. Docs are only part of a problem. We all know the data. Docs salaries only make up 6% of total healthcare costs. It was 15% of total healthcare spending was a portion of doctor salaries when I started medical school almost 30 years ago.

Insurance costs are sky high.

Look at non subsidized healthcare on the exchanges a family of four with a halfway decent network coverage costs in excess of $2000/month plus 10k out of pocket. You can get some shady less coverage and less network for cheaper but you get the drift. It literally will cost you 30k plus in premiums and deductibles before a single penny is paid out.

Like one of the docs here said he pays close to 40k a year in healthcare. And I’m assuming he and his family are pretty healthy.

That’s pure profit for united healthcare.

Insurance costs are high because this is what the American people want.

They want to sue if anything goes wrong.
Hello, legal teams and malpractice insurance for hospitals and physicians. This results in increased CYA medicine (labs, imaging) .

You think people would be willing to pay a much cheaper premium if they gave up the ability to file a malpractice lawsuit? I don't.

They want rigorous standards for hospitals. The amount of bureaucracy needed to build an operating room or even update surgical lighting is ridiculous. This costs everyone money.

They want elite level care for their 23 week premie and their 98 year old grandma. This costs a huge amount of money, time and resources to have this infrastructure in place.

The administrative costs are out of control but the growth in administration is significantly related to the huge amount of oversight, regulation, and legal burden in the healthcare system.

This is what everyone wants. The main issue is they really don't want to pay for it.

 

[allantois]

The entire healthcare system is an entangled mess. Cmon we had an NaCl shortage because most of it comes from one factory in the US?? The drug costs are obscene and nothing really makes sense. Yet, this is the system that the majority of people support. They don’t want healthcare for all or education for all. Hence as there is no social contract both healthcare and higher education are an expensive mess in this country

 

[nimbus]

Sounds like Hammurabi's code to me. Maybe we can go back to honor killings to revolutionize our society.

No one is forcing him to buy 40k a year worth of insurance. He's free to let him and his family go without insurance, and enjoy looking over his shoulder for the rest of his unprotected time. He's also free to buy bad insurance and wait in line with the Medicaid patients. No one's forcing him to pay that much, I guarantee it.

Nice things cost money. Year long ICU stays for everyone, lifetime dialysis for anyone and everyone, ECMO for any dementia patients based on family's wishes, miracle biologic drugs, unlimited EMTALA visits for 330 million people. All of it costs a lot of money, and that money means we've got actually smart people going into medicine in the US, and high quality equipment and facilities. It also means a get out of jail free card for the population in this world that treats their bodies the worst of any in the history of the world.

Get out of jail free cards for everyone, and a system that takes care of you to the absolute maximum no matter what you do or how you mistreat your body or your family's body, costs a ton of money.

People in America are just upset that their money goes to other people who are worse off than they are, because we decided that infinite medical care for anyone who wants it is the ideal system.

And we physicians are net beneficiaries of this system. Maybe not as much as c-suites executives at insurance giants but we get our slice of pie too.

 

[sloh]

And we physicians are net beneficiaries of this system. Maybe not as much as c-suites executives at insurance giants but we get our slice of our too.

We are beneficiaries of this system but most of us weren’t aware of how perverse this system was before choosing medicine as a career. Also, hypothetically in another model where physicians didn’t get a large enough slice of pie (absolute, not relative as we all understand our incomes make up a very small sliver of total healthcare expenses), I’d wager most of us would have chosen another career path.

 

[aneftp]

And we physicians are net beneficiaries of this system. Maybe not as much as c-suites executives at insurance giants but we get our slice of our too.

I’d be willing to take a 50% paycut if everyone takes the same paycut. Including overpaid tech guys,

Heck the plumber I use makes 150k a year as employee and he has side gigs I pay him cash for n

Most everyone who wants to work and has a decent Education will make money these days.

As for physicians being beneficiaries of the system. Considering the USA uses more mid levels than any other country. Mid levels (see crnas) demand equal pay as docs. They aren’t cheap.

Do other countries doctors get paid less than USA for same healthcare. Yes. But they aren’t graduates of 400k plus student loan debt either.

 

[anonperson]

And we physicians are net beneficiaries of this system. Maybe not as much as c-suites executives at insurance giants but we get our slice of our too.

Yeah but we actually deserve it.

What does your average insurance CEO of hospital CEO do to even justify half their salary?

 

[kb1900]

I’d be willing to take a 50% paycut if everyone takes the same paycut. Including overpaid tech guys,

Heck the plumber I use makes 150k a year as employee and he has side gigs I pay him cash for n

Most everyone who wants to work and has a decent Education will make money these days.

As for physicians being beneficiaries of the system. Considering the USA uses more mid levels than any other country. Mid levels (see crnas) demand equal pay as docs. They aren’t cheap.

Do other countries doctors get paid less than USA for same healthcare. Yes. But they aren’t graduates of 400k plus student loan debt either.

I’d just go back to tutoring for Mcat, step 1 and high school AP classes. Made $100-150/hour cash 20 hours a week doing this back in 2016 when I was still a kid. I got offers upwards of $200/hour for the mcat and step 1 in med school (back when it was not p/f). Even had a live in offer for some Ivy league student At one point. 8 years not doing this and I still get referrals every few months that I turn down.

 

[sloh]

I’d just go back to tutoring for Mcat, step 1 and high school AP classes. Made $100-150/hour cash 20 hours a week doing this back in 2016 when I was still a kid. I got offers upwards of $200/hour for the mcat and step 1 in med school (back when it was not p/f). Even had a live in offer for some Ivy league student At one point. 8 years not doing this and I still get referrals every few months that I turn down.

ChatGPT may make that not a great career today haha

“Ahmed Assalmi, a fourth-year student at Taif University in Saudi Arabia, subscribed to Chegg recently for help on a computer engineering problem. He was disappointed with Chegg’s solution, which said at the bottom, “Instant responses come from subject-matter experts, AI models trained on Chegg’s learning content or OpenAI.”

“I felt scammed,” Assalmi said. He preferred the answer from ChatGPT, which he frequently uses for schoolwork.”

https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/how-chatgpt-brought-down-an-online-education-giant-200b4ff2?st=p2CcSo&reflink=article_copyURL_share

 

[PainInTheAnes]

How is it possible, that a full week after the event, you're still oblivious to the chief complaint something like 90% of the country has about healthcare insurance?

I described in detail above why "insurance" is the wrong solution to the problem of funding healthcare and why single payer, government run, tax funded coverage is the answer.

Health insurance is a parasitic system that diverts manpower and money from the actual delivery of healthcare, while introducing additional harms.



I don't see anyone here celebrating this crime.



Well ... that's one take.

Health insurance isn’t a leech. They provide a valuable service to me and my family. I don’t have to worry about being in a car accident or getting lymphoma and paying for it all. Valuable services like that cost money.

I also have doctors who actually take my insurance, more than any Medicaid patient can say. Also, my doctors don’t hate me either because when they do get paid by my insurance company, the payment pays their overhead instead of covering their morning coffee like Medicare/caid

 

[nimbus]

I’d just go back to tutoring for Mcat, step 1 and high school AP classes. Made $100-150/hour cash 20 hours a week doing this back in 2016 when I was still a kid. I got offers upwards of $200/hour for the mcat and step 1 in med school (back when it was not p/f). Even had a live in offer for some Ivy league student At one point. 8 years not doing this and I still get referrals every few months that I turn down.

There wouldn’t be much demand for MCAT prep if physician income was cut in half.

 

[aneftp]

Health insurance isn’t a leech. They provide a valuable service to me and my family. I don’t have to worry about being in a car accident or getting lymphoma and paying for it all. Valuable services like that cost money.

I also have doctors who actually take my insurance, more than any Medicaid patient can say. Also, my doctors don’t hate me either because when they do get paid by my insurance company, the payment pays their overhead instead of covering their morning coffee like Medicare/caid

But are you paying 40k a year out of your own pocket for health insurance before a single penny is paid by the insurance company in terms of premiums and deductibles.

I think you will have a different outlook “doctors get paid by my insurance company”. Change it to doctors get paid with my own premiums and deductibles and insurance keeps everything else.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

But are you paying 40k a year out of your own pocket for health insurance before a single penny is paid by the insurance company in terms of premiums and deductibles.

I think you will have a different outlook “doctors get paid by my insurance company”. Change it to doctors get paid with my own premiums and deductibles and insurance keeps everything else.

Not that I know of, that’s one of the chief benefits for most people that have a job. Don’t like your jobs insurance? Get a new job. It’s an enticing benefit for many good jobs though.

I pay for car, home, and disability insurance out of my own pocket. Never been disabled or had a car accident or had my house burn down.

Guess what my favorite bills to pay every month are? The ones that let me sleep at night knowing I’m protected from bad things happening.

Have you guys never seen the commercials that say “you’re getting peace of mind with xyz insurance.” It’s true

 

[aneftp]

Not that I know of, that’s one of the chief benefits for most people that have a job. Don’t like your jobs insurance? Get a new job. It’s an enticing benefit for many good jobs though.

I pay for car, home, and disability insurance out of my own pocket. Never been disabled or had a car accident or had my house burn down.

Guess what my favorite bills to pay every month are? The ones that let me sleep at night knowing I’m protected from bad things happening.

Have you guys never seen the commercials that say “you’re getting peace of mind with xyz insurance.” It’s true

Your outlook will change if you are paying 40k in health premiums and deductibles as self employed. The way the ACA works is

Remember the big selling point of the ACA was “don’t like your job”. You can switch jobs without worrying about healthcare.

Well after the insurance companies got done with Obama. Obama really needed to change his speech you better be making more than 300k if you want to switch Health insurance and be on your own insuring a family of 4. Or find another employer to subsidize your healthcare.

Weekly Address: President Obama Says Health Care Reform Cannot Wait

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Life insurance is dirt cheap term life. $100 a month for most people even into their 40s.
Car insurance varies from $100-300 a month
Disability insurance varies

I work with a ton of 1099 crnas. Their views are so skewed because they are in the grey zone of income (250-350k 1099). Those who have a family all have spouses who have access to subsidized healthcare.

It plays a big factor in to their 1099 decision. So right now the 300k self employed range is the grey zone for people’s if they have to get healthcare on their own.

Obviously the more you make over 300k. The less the healthcare premiums and deductibles matters.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Your outlook will change if you are paying 40k in health premiums and deductibles as self employed. The way the ACA works is

Remember the big selling point of the ACA was “don’t like your job”. You can switch jobs without worrying about healthcare.

Well after the insurance companies got done with Obama. Obama really needed to change his speech you better be making more than 300k if you want to switch Health insurance and be on your own insuring a family of 4. Or find another employer to subsidize your healthcare.

Weekly Address: President Obama Says Health Care Reform Cannot Wait

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Life insurance is dirt cheap term life. $100 a month for most people even into their 40s.
Car insurance varies from $100-300 a month
Disability insurance varies

I work with a ton of 1099 crnas. Their views are so skewed because they are in the grey zone of income (250-350k 1099). Those who have a family all have spouses who have access to subsidized healthcare.

It plays a big factor in to their 1099 decision. So right now the 300k self employed range is the grey zone for people’s if they have to get healthcare on their own.

Obviously the more you make over 300k. The less the healthcare premiums and deductibles matters.

Yes, that’s one of the big downsides of 1099 work. Have to find your own insurance, and if you make a lot then you won’t get subsidy or discounts for it. He’s probably not paying for the cheapest plan if I had to guess. He wants better coverage and options and probably pays a premium for that.

And cobra is available for anyone switching jobs for 18 months. Should be able to find something affordable if you are in that space and still working 1099. Then it’s also tax deductible so his premium amounts to 27k because it’s all pre tax

 

[rick roller pump]

Insurance costs are high because this is what the American people want.

They want to sue if anything goes wrong.
Hello, legal teams and malpractice insurance for hospitals and physicians. This results in increased CYA medicine (labs, imaging) .

You think people would be willing to pay a much cheaper premium if they gave up the ability to file a malpractice lawsuit? I don't.

They want rigorous standards for hospitals. The amount of bureaucracy needed to build an operating room or even update surgical lighting is ridiculous. This costs everyone money.

They want elite level care for their 23 week premie and their 98 year old grandma. This costs a huge amount of money, time and resources to have this infrastructure in place.

The administrative costs are out of control but the growth in administration is significantly related to the huge amount of oversight, regulation, and legal burden in the healthcare system.

This is what everyone wants. The main issue is they really don't want to pay for it.

Great post.

We simply do way to much unnecessary crap that ultimately provides little/no value to the patient. There are days where I do several anesthetics and I am not really sure if I actually helped anyone. We work our ass off to get the SAS gomer through the surgery. Same patient in UK gets comfort care.

Until physicians in the US have the ability to say no (without risk of litigation) to testing, procedures, ICU admissions, etc, costs will continue to grow.

 

[Hoya11]

Great post.

We simply do way to much unnecessary crap that ultimately provides little/no value to the patient. There are days where I do several anesthetics and I am not really sure if I actually helped anyone. We work our ass off to get the SAS gomer through the surgery. Same patient in UK gets comfort care.

Until physicians in the US have the ability to say no (without risk of litigation) to testing, procedures, ICU admissions, etc, costs will continue to grow.

But don’t you understand that that is a result of the insurance , insurance promotes maximal care and doing more even when less is better. It’s not like we want that system, this is the system that has evolved because of insurance and capitalistic medical system ..

Pay surgeons a flat fee and see how many surgeries get done.

Stop reimbursing hospitals for futile ventilator care and see how fast hospice happens

 

[PainInTheAnes]

But don’t you understand that that is a result of the insurance , insurance promotes maximal care and doing more even when less is better. It’s not like we want that system, this is the system that has evolved because of insurance and capitalistic medical system ..

Pay surgeons a flat fee and see how many surgeries get done.

Stop reimbursing hospitals for futile ventilator care and see how fast hospice happens

There are plenty of reasons for insurance companies to reimburse futile or really expensive care and then nickel and dime everything else. Most of it is legal in nature. These companies are not immune to lawsuits, and the accusation of “the insurance company killed my mother” is something that is exceedingly rare. Patients families can and do win wrongful death suits

If you sweat the small stuff, patients and families won’t retaliate because it isn’t worth it.

Maybe if CMS would lead the way in establishing a legal framework to deny actually futile care and stop covering dialysis in perpetuity we could make some progress. But they won’t, so enjoy the system as it is.

 

[Hoya11]

There are plenty of reasons for insurance companies to reimburse futile or really expensive care and then nickel and dime everything else. Most of it is legal in nature. These companies are not immune to lawsuits, and the accusation of “the insurance company killed my mother” is something that is exceedingly rare. Patients families can and do win wrongful death suits

If you sweat the small stuff, patients and families won’t retaliate because it isn’t worth it.

Maybe if CMS would lead the way in establishing a legal framework to deny actually futile care and stop covering dialysis in perpetuity we could make some progress. But they won’t, so enjoy the system as it is.

Possibly, but in my real word experience I have found it VERY difficult to sue an insurance company. They have hundreds of millions of dollars and multiple lawyers on retainer against little ole you. That’s why there is no recourse for inappropriately denying claims. There no recourse for anesthesia groups to collect monies owed. They get away with almost anything and are RARELY sued or held accountable.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The single payer government system in the US does not work. Medicaid has 70 million patients. That is greater than the entire population of the UK. That is much greater than the entire population of South Korea. Medicaid is very broken despite not having sick, elderly patients like Medicare.

Want Medicare for All... then patient will have to accept a 20% co-insurance with no out of pocket maximum. Or having Medicare Advantage and possibly impossible to get back into regular Medicare.

Physician income used to be 15% of health care costs. It is now 6%. Medicare reimbursement to doctors is being cut in 2025 and that's not the first time it's been cut. Doctors should be paid slightly more. Otherwise, weak students apply and get into medical school.

Lawyers can easily bill $500-600/hour. A few bill $1200/hour. Lawyers can manufacture work for themselves, similar to unnecessary surgery, except unnecessary surgery can lead to losing one's medical license but not one's law license.

I can easily bill over $500/hr and I'm a lowly FP.

A speedy cataract surgeon can bill over $1500/hr on surgery days.

 

[DesiredMemberName?]

I can easily bill over $500/hr and I'm a lowly FP.

A speedy cataract surgeon can bill over $1500/hr on surgery days.

The point is many physicians have had to increase their productivity just to try to maintain their nominal income over the years (forget about real income).

Smart, young people aren’t blind to this. There’s a reason many grads from the top med schools are pursuing career paths that don’t require actual clinical practice.

 

[abolt18]

Video from a couple days ago, but still great.

 

[kidthor]

So are RFK and Dr. Oz going to fix it all for us?

 

[anonperson]

Back trouble and brain fog bothered suspect in UnitedHealthcare CEO killing, his posts show

Social media posts from the man suspected of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson show he underwent successful back surgery last year that alleviated debilitating chronic pain.

apnews.com

Luigi Mamgione appears to have never had United Health as his insurance carrier.

Was posting on Reddit like a weenie.

Comes from an upper middle class, likely wealthy family.

Worsened his back injuries surfing in Hawaii living in some type of surfer commune.

What an odd guy.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I know people are looking at his supposed X-ray that he posted and criticizing the work done but he was able to murder a guy, escape out of NYC, and make it to the sticks of Pennsylvania, only getting caught because he loves his big Macs.

I'd say his back is doing pretty well all things considered.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You can bill but insurance companies have their allowed amount. Also what there are tremendous expenses so what you make is far less than what you bill. The speedy cataract surgeon also has post-op care that is bundled with the surgery payment. Medicare pays less for cataract surgery than a set of 4 good tires.

The vast majority of FP do not make $500/hour. $500/hour x 40 hr/week x 50 weeks = $1 million. FP's do not usually make $1 million per year. Not even close.

Ah but see, the numbers I used there are taken from the Medicare fee schedule.

If I do a level 4 visit (which is 90% of my visits) and an AWV, Medicare will pay me $260. I can easily do 4 of those an hour but I went with 2 instead to not seem greedy. I did the same with cataract surgery and 3 an hour though we both know many ophthalmologists can do more than that.

Lawyers also don't get 100% of their billed time as salary. They have overhead same as we do

 

[sloh]

Ah but see, the numbers I used there are taken from the Medicare fee schedule.

If I do a level 4 visit (which is 90% of my visits) and an AWV, Medicare will pay me $260. I can easily do 4 of those an hour but I went with 2 instead to not seem greedy. I did the same with cataract surgery and 3 an hour though we both know many ophthalmologists can do more than that.

Lawyers also don't get 100% of their billed time as salary. They have overhead same as we do

But the point [mention]Gonio5 [/mention]made still stands. There are very few FM docs making 7 figures per year. The math may math but it’s not reality.

 

[nimbus]

Deep dive of the shooting and our current medical industrial complex by the spine surgeon who quit. Saying the quiet stuff out loud.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But the point [mention]Gonio5 [/mention]made still stands. There are very few FM docs making 7 figures per year. The math may math but it’s not reality.

No, it doesn't.

Lawyers may bill at $500-700/hour but that's not what they're taking home. They have overhead the same as we do though I suspect a lower percentage of their total collections goes to overhead.

I easily collect (if we use Medicare allowable numbers) $500/hr or more. Let's take the first hour of my day. I saw 4 patients. All level 4 outpatient visits. Including the new chronic complexity code and using just the Medicare figures (although they weren't all Medicare), I will be reimbursed $577.88 for that hour. That's the actual number of my office will collect. Not billed and then adjusted, that's the collected number. My second hour had identical billing. My 3rd hour will be higher because there was a Medicare Wellness Visit thrown in to the mix. So for my first 3 hours I averaged around $585/hour in money that will be paid. Might be more because there were a few commercial payers thrown in there.

However, that $585/hour isn't what I take home. That amount also has to cover staff, utilities, rent/mortgage on the building, my benefits, and so on. Generally speaking, overhead for primary care is around 50-60%. Let's say its 60% for the sake of argument, so my 40% of that is $234/hour. That's much closer to what FPs make.

 

[yappy]

I feel about as much sympathy for this CEO as I do when cartel/mafia members get shot. Violence is bad, but you worked for a cartel.

If he was found and pleaded insanity and I was on the jury I'd vote for insanity, using health insurance especially with a sick family requiring multiple procedures/infusions has driven me insane, his insanity was just to a much higher degree and he's a violent person

I cannot make that leap myself. I can put career criminals and cartel/mafia members in a similar category. Maybe you wouldn't have sympathy for them if they were shot/killed? But I'm not at all convinced that a CEO, an employee of a legal enterprise, is like a cartel member or criminal. Kind of a dumb take, honestly.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

I cannot make that leap myself. I can put career criminals and cartel/mafia members in a similar category. Maybe you wouldn't have sympathy for them if they were shot/killed? But I'm not at all convinced that a CEO, an employee of a legal enterprise, is like a cartel member or criminal. Kind of a dumb take, honestly.

Remember, he committed “legalized crimes”, per one poster here

As they say in the movie Dredd, “the sentence is death.”

Maybe we could make this an ethics essay for medical students. Apparently a bunch of people just missed the one about having a basic moral compass.

 

[nimbus]

I cannot make that leap myself. I can put career criminals and cartel/mafia members in a similar category. Maybe you wouldn't have sympathy for them if they were shot/killed? But I'm not at all convinced that a CEO, an employee of a legal enterprise, is like a cartel member or criminal. Kind of a dumb take, honestly.

Someone who wears a suit and has an army of lawyers and lobbyists can still be a criminal.

 

[pgg]

Remember, he committed “legalized crimes”, per one poster here

As they say in the movie Dredd, “the sentence is death.”

Maybe we could make this an ethics essay for medical students. Apparently a bunch of people just missed the one about having a basic moral compass.

You're trying so, so hard to not understand.

Or maybe you just like to argue because arguing is fun. That, I can understand. 🙂


Of course he didn't deserve to die. Of course murder isn't OK. Of course killing health insurance company CEOs isn't a solution to any of the problems with health insurance, real or imagined or exaggerated. Of course this guy should be prosecuted. He'll probably be found guilty and he'll probably spend the rest of his life in prison - and deservedly so.

But it's possible to observe that murder from afar and not be surprised it happened, and not have a lot of sympathy for the victim. There can be more than one bad guy in a story, and they don't have to be equally bad. One doesn't have to cry crocodile tears or pretend to grieve for the "less bad" person in any given tale of woe.


Let me give you a simpler example:

Someone is in a bar, mouthing off. Being obnoxious. Spilling drinks on people. Verbally harassing women. Some random guy punches him in the face and knocks him out.

Was violence OK there? No. Is it illegal assault & battery? Yes. Should the person who punched him be arrested, charged, tried (if he won't plea out), and sentenced? Yes.

Is there going to be a lot of sympathy for the guy who got punched? No. Is someone who shrugs and/or laughs when his head bounces off the floor and makes a hollow coconut sound in need of an ethics essay assignment? No.

If you spend your life "****ing around" you shouldn't be surprised when people don't care very much when the "finding out" bit finds you.


Now you can pretend to be bewildered by the above phenomenon if you like, but that's silly.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

You're trying so, so hard to not understand.

Or maybe you just like to argue because arguing is fun. That, I can understand. 🙂


Of course he didn't deserve to die. Of course murder isn't OK. Of course killing health insurance company CEOs isn't a solution to any of the problems with health insurance, real or imagined or exaggerated. Of course this guy should be prosecuted. He'll probably be found guilty and he'll probably spend the rest of his life in prison - and deservedly so.

But it's possible to observe that murder from afar and not be surprised it happened, and not have a lot of sympathy for the victim. There can be more than one bad guy in a story, and they don't have to be equally bad. One doesn't have to cry crocodile tears or pretend to grieve for the "less bad" person in any given tale of woe.


Let me give you a simpler example:

Someone is in a bar, mouthing off. Being obnoxious. Spilling drinks on people. Verbally harassing women. Some random guy punches him in the face and knocks him out.

Was violence OK there? No. Is it illegal assault & battery? Yes. Should the person who punched him be arrested, charged, tried (if he won't plea out), and sentenced? Yes.

Is there going to be a lot of sympathy for the guy who got punched? No. Is someone who shrugs and/or laughs when his head bounces off the floor and makes a hollow coconut sound in need of an ethics essay assignment? No.

If you spend your life "****ing around" you shouldn't be surprised when people don't care very much when the "finding out" bit finds you.


Now you can pretend to be bewildered by the above phenomenon if you like, but that's silly.

I’ll grant you all of that, though it’s sort of a rough way to look at things. Did you feel the same way during summer of 2020 if we’re in FAFO territory? If so, I’ll give you that you’re logically consistent at the least, I just find it a little too utilitarian and fatalistic.

I don’t know this guy obviously, but it’s hard to watch people celebrate deaths of actually innocent people. It’s just grimy to hear it at work to me, but I’m a little more spiritually minded so I think that contributes

I do think it would be an interesting interview question for some snotty MIT grad who volunteered for 100000 hours to mull over

 

[yappy]

Someone who wears a suit and has an army of lawyers and lobbyists can still be a criminal.

What was his crime? What happened to innocence till proven guilty? Isn’t the burden on the state to prove he is guilty of a crime for him to be considered a “criminal”? I agree with the sentiment of your post, money talks, corruption, etc., but the CEO wasn’t even on trial for a crime. I wonder how far this argument can be stretched; Ive met people that think what anesthesiologists charge is “criminal” and their demand to be paid for their services is literally killing people. However just like an anesthesiologist, a private company isn’t accountable to the gunman.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What was his crime? What happened to innocence till proven guilty? Isn’t the burden on the state to prove he is guilty of a crime for him to be considered a “criminal”? I agree with the sentiment of your post, money talks, corruption, etc., but the CEO wasn’t even on trial for a crime. I wonder how far this argument can be stretched; Ive met people that think what anesthesiologists charge is “criminal” and their demand to be paid for their services is literally killing people. However just like an anesthesiologist, a private company isn’t accountable to the gunman.

UnitedHealthcare CEO accused of insider trading and fraud, lawsuit shows

The UnitedHealthcare CEO who was shot and killed in New York on Dec. 4 was named in a lawsuit earlier this year, according to a lawsuit.

cbsaustin.com

 

[yappy]

UnitedHealthcare CEO accused of insider trading and fraud, lawsuit shows

The UnitedHealthcare CEO who was shot and killed in New York on Dec. 4 was named in a lawsuit earlier this year, according to a lawsuit.

cbsaustin.com

I am aware of the lawsuit. Im asking about his crimes that put him in the same category as “drug cartel or mob” leaders, that warrants his murder in the minds of left wing ideologues.

 

[yappy]

You're trying so, so hard to not understand.

Or maybe you just like to argue because arguing is fun. That, I can understand. 🙂


Of course he didn't deserve to die. Of course murder isn't OK. Of course killing health insurance company CEOs isn't a solution to any of the problems with health insurance, real or imagined or exaggerated. Of course this guy should be prosecuted. He'll probably be found guilty and he'll probably spend the rest of his life in prison - and deservedly so.

But it's possible to observe that murder from afar and not be surprised it happened, and not have a lot of sympathy for the victim. There can be more than one bad guy in a story, and they don't have to be equally bad. One doesn't have to cry crocodile tears or pretend to grieve for the "less bad" person in any given tale of woe.


Let me give you a simpler example:

Someone is in a bar, mouthing off. Being obnoxious. Spilling drinks on people. Verbally harassing women. Some random guy punches him in the face and knocks him out.

Was violence OK there? No. Is it illegal assault & battery? Yes. Should the person who punched him be arrested, charged, tried (if he won't plea out), and sentenced? Yes.

Is there going to be a lot of sympathy for the guy who got punched? No. Is someone who shrugs and/or laughs when his head bounces off the floor and makes a hollow coconut sound in need of an ethics essay assignment? No.

If you spend your life "****ing around" you shouldn't be surprised when people don't care very much when the "finding out" bit finds you.


Now you can pretend to be bewildered by the above phenomenon if you like, but that's silly.

False analogy. It’s more like someone in a bar finds out a stranger is a member of a profession they don’t like so they murder them. We can all be bewildered by that.

 

[kb1900]

I am aware of the lawsuit. Im asking about his crimes that put him in the same category as “drug cartel or mob” leaders, that warrants his murder in the minds of left wing ideologues.

You don’t have to do something illegal to do something unethical or immoral. Legality is not morality.

Nobody is saying his murder was “warranted”. Also Luigi was more right than left wing so you can relax with the partisanship

 

[pgg]

False analogy. It’s more like someone in a bar finds out a stranger is a member of a profession they don’t like so they murder them. We can all be bewildered by that.

The phrase "a profession they don't like" is purposefully understating things. Pretending there's no context or history.

I'd be bewildered if someone whacked a random street performer because they vaguely think mimes are kind of lame. That'd be hard to understand. I'd wonder where the hell that came from. That's weird.

I'm not bewildered that someone whacked the figurehead of, public face of, chief strategizer of, massive personal financial beneficiary of a corporation in the most hated industry in America. And it's not like that hatred is undeserved - most people have trouble squaring the kind of profits being made with routine denials of claims, and that's before you even get into minor details like UH's denial rate being (by far) the worst in the industry, or their use of known-faulty AI to process (ie deny) claims.

I mean, you could start a chain of abortion clinics that hands out a free AR15 with each aborted fetus, and you'd probably piss off fewer people than the health insurance industry does.

(An industry that, FWIW, many people believe shouldn't even exist in the first place.)

If you're confused and bewildered why this happened, maybe you need to get out more.🙂

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I am aware of the lawsuit. Im asking about his crimes that put him in the same category as “drug cartel or mob” leaders, that warrants his murder in the minds of left wing ideologues.

The only crime Al Capone was convicted of was tax evasion as I recall.

 

[yappy]

The phrase "a profession they don't like" is purposefully understating things. Pretending there's no context or history.

I'd be bewildered if someone whacked a random street performer because they vaguely think mimes are kind of lame. That'd be hard to understand. I'd wonder where the hell that came from. That's weird.

I'm not bewildered that someone whacked the figurehead of, public face of, chief strategizer of, massive personal financial beneficiary of a corporation in the most hated industry in America. And it's not like that hatred is undeserved - most people have trouble squaring the kind of profits being made with routine denials of claims, and that's before you even get into minor details like UH's denial rate being (by far) the worst in the industry, or their use of known-faulty AI to process (ie deny) claims.

I mean, you could start a chain of abortion clinics that hands out a free AR15 with each aborted fetus, and you'd probably piss off fewer people than the health insurance industry does.

(An industry that, FWIW, many people believe shouldn't even exist in the first place.)

If you're confused and bewildered why this happened, maybe you need to get out more.🙂

Ill amend the analogy: It’s a profession they don’t like (CEO) in an industry they don’t like (health insurance). I understand that symbolic killings happen. It’s just not that common in the US and doesn’t seem to garner much support until now.

Ironically, to better understand the killer’s motivations I think spending more time online in left wing echo chambers, where he was likely radicalized, would be more informative than “getting out more”.

 

[yappy]

The only crime Al Capone was convicted of was tax evasion as I recall.

Do you think the CEO was like Al Capone and an insurance company is like the mob? Do you understand the difference between a law suit and a crime?

 

[nimbus]

Structural Violence and Clinical Medicine - PMC

Structural violence refers to the social structures that put people in harm's way. Farmer and colleagues describe the impact of social violence upon people living with HIV in the US and Rwanda.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Defining Structural Violence​

The term “structural violence” is one way of describing social arrangements that put individuals and populations in harm's way (see Box 1) [16]. The arrangements are structural because they are embedded in the political and economic organization of our social world; they are violent because they cause injury to people (typically, not those responsible for perpetuating such inequalities). With few exceptions, clinicians are not trained to understand such social forces, nor are we trained to alter them. Yet it has long been clear that many medical and public health interventions will fail if we are unable to understand the social determinants of disease [17,18].

Box 1. What Is Structural Violence?​

Structural violence, a term coined by Johan Galtung and by liberation theologians during the 1960s, describes social structures—economic, political, legal, religious, and cultural—that stop individuals, groups, and societies from reaching their full potential [57]. In its general usage, the word violence often conveys a physical image; however, according to Galtung, it is the “avoidable impairment of fundamental human needs or…the impairment of human life, which lowers the actual degree to which someone is able to meet their needs below that which would otherwise be possible” [58]. Structural violence is often embedded in longstanding “ubiquitous social structures, normalized by stable institutions and regular experience” [59]. Because they seem so ordinary in our ways of understanding the world, they appear almost invisible. Disparate access to resources, political power, education, health care, and legal standing are just a few examples. The idea of structural violence is linked very closely to social injustice and the social machinery of oppression [16].”