US DO vs Caribbean MD

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DO by far and away is the better option. Cheaper and way better chance of landing a desired specialty especially if you go to one of the more established DO programs.

Not to sound rude, but are you sure you actually researched this thoroughly? This topic has been beaten to death, not only here, but all over the internet.
 
Why did you post this in both the MD and DO forums?
 
madiso30 said:
DO by far and away is the better option. Cheaper and way better chance of landing a desired specialty especially if you go to one of the more established DO programs.

Not to sound rude, but are you sure you actually researched this thoroughly? This topic has been beaten to death, not only here, but all over the internet.
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Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
 
Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
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The premed subreddit has a very good stickied post on why the Carribean schools can be sketchy. I’d read it if you haven’t yet. As for “SGU having a 93% match”, think to yourself (or better read the subreddit post and do better research) how many students SGU failed out before even getting a chance to apply to match. Compare that to the attrition rate at the newest DO school (most US schools have very few fail out of their class while carribean schools have up to a 50% attrition rate...which they don’t post). AAMC and AACOMAS have very transparent data on their sites regarding every school’s enrollment numbers year by year and a ton of other very useful numbers/data.
 
Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
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Is avg DO match rate really that low? Anyone knows which school contributed the most to such a bad match rate?
 
Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
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Honestly, be skeptical of most numbers presented by most schools. They will not exactly be the truth depending on how they spin it. DO schools tend to stretch the truth slightly but I wouldn't be surprised if Caribbean schools really are stretching the truth.

As someone else said above, US anything is better than anything else.
 
Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
Click to expand...

That 93% match rate is a statistic that requires context. It may be 93% percent for the final set of students that made it it to the fourth year and were able to put out an app to ERAS, but when you account for the many students that fail out of the program over the years, it really paints a bleak picture. I won’t lie though, if you make It through the academic slaughter house that is SGU or Ross, you do stand a decent chance at matching into programs that are the least desirable to US grads.
 
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dochopeful1460 said:
I think it's 80ish% for preferred specialties (at a specific program that applicants rank 1st on their list). The overall match rate is much higher.
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Ic, also when you type into Google "Osteopathic School average match rate" it will give you 82% as the result. Not sure why but it can be quite misleading for prospective applicants.
 
Whysoez said:
Ic, also when you type into Google "Osteopathic School average match rate" it will give you 82% as the result. Not sure why but it can be quite misleading for prospective applicants.
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It's because people distinguish match rate and placement rate. The match rate of DO graduates is in the 80s%, but the placement rate is >98% (which may be higher than the allopathic equivalent), Friend.
 
I'd read this post by @hallowmann to understand the DO match rate:
forums.studentdoctor.net

DO Match Rate 2019

A few things: -Here are the 2016-2018 threads for reference - DO match rate 2016, DO match rate 2017, DO match rate 2018 -These numbers are all based on published reports. Reports sometimes have errors. Either way, hopefully this is useful. -This says nothing about the type of GME attained. Some...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

I think the 80% match rate you guys are referring to is only for the NRMP match, but DO still had the AOA match rate as well last year. On top of that there's also the military match. Overall I think the match rate for DOs was well over 93%, and the DO placement rate was 98%. We will know the true NRMP match rate for DOs this year since this is the year we finally have a complete residency merger between ACGME and AOA with only one match system.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
 
pchemdestr8 said:
MD is more prestigious than DO, so I guess that would be the only plus of going to carib. However, if that is the reason why you want to go to the carib, just to get "MD", your kinda screwed when people ask which med school you went to as even in the general public US medical schools (including DO) > MD carib
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How should we go about this comment?
 
pchemdestr8 said:
MD is more prestigious than DO, so I guess that would be the only plus of going to carib. However, if that is the reason why you want to go to the carib, just to get "MD", your kinda screwed when people ask which med school you went to as even in the general public US medical schools (including DO) > MD carib.

What would I do if I was in your shoes? I would prob pick US DO as it gives greater freedom for residency spots
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An unemployable Caribbean MD is not very prestigious
 
Do not go to a Caribbean school. While there are certainly some programs like the sweatshops in NYC that prefer Caribbean grads, most prefer DO grads or at least consider them equal.

The NRMP match rate for DOs is in the 80’s% but we won’t really have a transparent match rate until the match in a couple months because the AOA match is officially gone which has always obfuscated the matter. Hallowman’s posts on the subject are pretty good and iirc our “true” match rate has historically been ~5% lower than USMDs.

If you’re on the fence about the matter, google “million dollar mistake” and read that guys story about his trip to the Caribbean.

There’s plenty that sucks about going DO, but it sucks WAAAY more to go Carib.
 
CrunchyCruched said:
Check this out, I read it when I was having similar deliberations. He's a bit dramatic, and he did ultimately match cardiology, but it gives you some of the negatives of actually living in the carib and the whole experience: Million $ Mistake

If you really want to do the uber residencies (derm, ortho, neurosurg, ENT, Otho etc,) then I would take an SMP and reapply to US MD. The possibility of absolutely killing your boards and still not getting into what you truly want to do I think is enough to wait a couple years. A big part of what helped me accept and like the DO route is I have a good idea of what I want to go into, and from what I have read and who I have spoken to I see that DO's don't have trouble matching in those areas. Also you have to consider that there is no guarantee you do well in the SMP and then you are in a really rough spot.
Click to expand...

I always feel like SMP should be your last option (before Carib MD). The author, assuming his story was true, did not exhaust all of the options available to him before he decided to go Carib MD, luckily he got through, but many didn't.
 
With OP posting this question in several forums, I think they have a hard time dealing with being a DO. Since we dont need another self loathing DO, I would recommend doing a Post Bac or SMP with linkage and go for the US MD. Seems to be extremely difficult to match in anything other than primary care as a Carribean grad. DO would be a far better choice, as others have pointed out, but OP seems resistant to the idea.
 
Cristonda said:
I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?
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There are downsides when it comes to choosing DO. You take 2 sets of boards, take OMM/OMT, and deal with DO bias along the way.. but these are "taxes" for having a bad pre-med career. I would rather go through this than have a 50/50 chance of matching if I were to go with carribean MD. Think about it... going to Carribean essentially means your future is dependent on a coin-flip. Would you want to spend 300-400k and possibly end up working in McDonald's??

Past residency, nobody really cares about the letters behind your name.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
I'd read this post by @hallowmann to understand the DO match rate:
forums.studentdoctor.net

DO Match Rate 2019

A few things: -Here are the 2016-2018 threads for reference - DO match rate 2016, DO match rate 2017, DO match rate 2018 -These numbers are all based on published reports. Reports sometimes have errors. Either way, hopefully this is useful. -This says nothing about the type of GME attained. Some...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

I think the 80% match rate you guys are referring to is only for the NRMP match, but DO still had the AOA match rate as well last year. On top of that there's also the military match. Overall I think the match rate for DOs was well over 93%, and the DO placement rate was 98%. We will know the true NRMP match rate for DOs this year since this is the year we finally have a complete residency merger between ACGME and AOA with only one match system.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

DO placed 98.84% in 2019 of those graduating and seeking GME thru all systems (NRMP, AOA, Military, post/pre match methods)
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...cements-in-2019-matches.pdf?sfvrsn=3cd93c97_4
 
Davidfromcali said:
That 93% match rate is a statistic that requires context. It may be 93% percent for the final set of students that made it it to the fourth year and were able to put out an app to ERAS, but when you account for the many students that fail out of the program over the years, it really paints a bleak picture. I won’t lie though, if you make It through the academic slaughter house that is SGU or Ross, you do stand a decent chance at matching into programs that are the least desirable to US grads.
Click to expand...

Just an estimate from the numbers that SGU reports that analyzes that 93% stat

Some numbers i worked up on SGU just a few weeks ago below. BTW, i am a strong proponent of podiatry. You get to practice medicine, including surgery, lot of sports meds and diabetic work. And despite what premeds perceive, nobody cares if you are an MD, DO, or DPM. They know you by your speciality be it IM, neuro, feet or whatever. In the hospital you are doctor



1) Enrollment and Residency:
Enrollment, MCAT & GPA Statistics | SGU Medical School
SGU SOM reports just under 6300 total enrollment in an MD program. This would mean roughly that 1600 students a year are MS1-MS4 or approximately 800 students a term. (whether students are in a dual degree and/or take more than 4 years to graduate, on average, this number will remain about the same). Of these 75% are US citizens and 17% are US PR, so 87% total US. Additionally 11% of total enrollment are Canadian, though many . It is reasonable to say then that about 90% of entering Students (about 1450) would likely seek medical residency in USA. SGU Reports that 961 have “US Residencies in 2019.“ So what has happened to these 500 others?

2) Attrition:
https://www.aamc.org/system/files/r...tesandattritionratesofu.s.medicalstudents.pdf
From 1993-1994 through 2012-2013, more medical students left medical school for nonacademic than for academic reasons,... The total national attrition rate remained relatively stable at an average of 3.3% over those 20 years.

So US MD schools have a 3.3% attrition rate, meaning 96.7% ultimately earn their degree. For SGU, they report “6.1% attrition rate for the class entering in August of 2017.” Assuming, that this up to date, it would mean of our 1450 Anticipated US Residency bound students, 90 dropped out after the first 2 years, leaving at least 1360 to continue. Also with the way that SGU reports this, we cant tell if any took leaves, needed another year, dropped out later, etc. We can only speculate that fewer additional percent dropped out in years 3-4. For purposes of comparison, lets assume a conservative total attrition of 10% for any entering class. With a weaker overall class (MCAT average of 497, cGPA of 3.3, sGPA of 3.1), and living overseas, 10% would be very conservative. So about 1225 would be left in our US-bound residency cohort

3) Medical Residency:

Graduate Success | St. George's University
SGU proudly states that 961 graduates got placed(not matched) in residencies. Now placement means via NRMP, post-match SOAP, any pre-match positions, openings that occur during the cycle Looking at their data further, 935 were placed in US, with others in Canada, UK, and a few other countries. So of the estimated 1225 graduates who sought US residencies, 935 got a slot, or about 76%. SGU also reports that on average 29% get slots via non-match methods. That would mean 664 graduates matched. So of the estimate 1450 US-residency bound students who start SGU, only 664 or 46% matched into a residency slot. That increases to about 65% who get ANY residency slot.

In sum, assuming 10% class attrition, the “success rate” of SGU is at best is 65%
 
The choice is pretty clear after all these helpful answers which are basically facts and noncontestable. If you still are not sure at this point, I question your ability to practice evidence based medicine...
 
BlueLion said:
The choice is pretty clear after all these helpful answers which are basically facts and noncontestable. If you still are not sure at this point, I question your ability to practice evidence based medicine...
Click to expand...
But what about those juicy initials you can get at the end of your name if you just risk going to the Caribbean??
 
Cristonda said:
I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?
Click to expand...

I don't know why this thread is getting hostile. To answer your question, you should always go US DO over Caribbean if you want to practice in US.
 
Lawper said:
I don't know why this thread is getting hostile. To answer your question, you should always go US DO over Caribbean if you want to practice in US.
Click to expand...

Not hostile, more like tough love. The consequences of choosing carib can be pretty dire.
 
Pstar9 said:
Not hostile, more like tough love. The consequences of choosing carib can be pretty dire.
Click to expand...
Especially when this topic has become a weekly post
 
OP you need to do your homework a bit more. US DO>>>> any caribbean. Look at the Charting outcomes and look at these two files below:

2019 Summary by Program Type

natmatch.com natmatch.com
You can see that among the 2 matches last year(NRMP and AOA) there were more DO's in almost every single specialty then Caribbean and FMG(foreign medical grads from other countries) keep in mind that there are many many more IMG's and FMG's in the match then there are DO's. The match rate in the NRMP for DO's is in the upper 80%'s but with the AOA match factored in the overall placement (i.e. the people getting a residency spot) is over 98%. The Caribbean is a horrible option with the merger and the rapid MD and DO school expansion. It is also significantly harder to match anything other than community and low tier university FM, IM, Peds, Psych and Neuro as an IMG. Fields like EM, Gas, Rads, Gen Surgery, OBGYN, PMR, University FM and Mid tier university IM and Psych and Neuro, Peds programs which are mid- competitive are much easier to match as a DO then as a IMG- look at these programs current residents and you will frequently see DO's and rarely see IMG's from the caribbean. Even the more competitive residencies like Derm, Optho, ENT, Ortho etc are much more "easier" and frequently matched by DO's then by IMG's- in part because many of the former DO programs in these specialties made it to the ACGME. Going to the Caribbean severely limits what you can do even if you make it out and get your MD.
 
Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
Click to expand...
Lol no US DO school match rate is 80%. Try upwards of 98%.
 
hungrydoc710 said:
Lol no US DO school match rate is 80%. Try upwards of 98%.
Click to expand...
Match rate is 80%. Placement is 98%. Different things but both result in a job come July 1. The absolutely only thing Caribbean would be bragging about is 95% of people allowed to end the match. Not the fraction of people that started M1
 
DO2015CA said:
Match rate is 80%. Placement is 98%. Different things but both result in a job come July 1. The absolutely only thing Caribbean would be bragging about is 95% of people allowed to end the match. Not the fraction of people that started M1
Click to expand...
Match rate is way more than 80% including all the different match systems. I believe @hallowmann calculations put it somewhere between 88-95%. And yes, placement (not match) rate is 98%.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
 
DrStephenStrange said:
Match rate is way more than 80% including all the different match systems. I believe @hallowmann calculations put it somewhere between 88-95%. And yes, placement (not match) rate is 98%.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Yup, details can be found in the thread below. The rate is somewhere in the 85-95% range for this past year, and most likely has been something like 87-89% for the last 4 yrs at least.

forums.studentdoctor.net

DO Match Rate 2019

A few things: -Here are the 2016-2018 threads for reference - DO match rate 2016, DO match rate 2017, DO match rate 2018 -These numbers are all based on published reports. Reports sometimes have errors. Either way, hopefully this is useful. -This says nothing about the type of GME attained. Some...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

OK, so I actually read this thread for the first time, so let me get up to speed:

Cristonda said:
I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I was in your same shoes for a brief period of time, because I didn't know much about the DO degree. I quickly learned that the choice is obvious.

If your goal is practice medicine in the US, you need to go to medical school here. The facts have already been presented, so I won't rehash all of them, just fill in some gaps. Your chances of finishing medical school let alone placing in a residency from a Carib school (even the best Carib school) is on the order of 65%, if not lower. You'll also spend more for an even harder time attaining a residency, and there is a very large group of people that graduate from schools like SGU with no residency, and they literally work in fast food or jobs completely outside of medicine. If you search for those stories, you'll find them easily.

Even if you want to work abroad, going Carib is the wrong choice. I assumed initially, again until I actually researched it, that an MD degree is an MD degree, but the truth is most countries, including the US, view the Carib MD degree as generally much lower than other degrees. When I actually compared head-to-head the number of countries that were willing to license US DOs compared to MD from SGU, more countries still recognized the US DO degree, and that number is only increasing.

As far as how you'll be viewed, most people won't care. The less you care, the less you'll notice it. I'm pretty happy with my degree, and honestly the only times patients bring it up is when they comment on how much they love their DO PCP or how their daughter is in DO school now.

Cristonda said:
Well only because currently I got accepted to one of the newer DO schools where their graduating class is waiting for a match (so they don't have their stats yet). In avg they say DO match rate is ~80%. But SGU has 93% match rate.
Click to expand...

You've already been told, but that information is false. SGU at best can claim a placement rate somewhere in the 75-80% range. That completely ignores the 20-25%+ of people that are kicked out from each class.

To clarify some numbers, they actually accept on the order of 1800-2000 per academic year (spread across the semesters), so the first 5 terms have far more students than the 3rd and 4th year, but they are weeded out. Can you imagine dropping on the order of $90k/yr tuition alone (SGU's actual cost, but they divide it into weird length "terms" to make it seem like less - first 2 yrs tuition is >$180k and the whole 4 years is >$330k in tuition alone) only to be kicked out before you're even allowed to sit for USMLE Step 1? Plenty of SGU students experience that.

DO, even a brand new DO school, is a far safer bet than any Carib school. Average attrition at DO schools is ~7-8%, some with as little at 3-4% and others (the biggest offenders) closer to 12%. They all pale in comparison to even the best Carib MD school, which is at least double or triple that.

As far as the DO match rate on the NRMP report, that match rate include DO graduates, which generally bring down the match rate. To give you an idea, the US MD senior NRMP match rate is on the order of 93-95%, but if you incorporate US MD graduates, it pulls the average down to 90-91%. The true DO match rate is in the high 80s, with placement in the high 90s (i.e. similar to US MD senior placement rates). You can get more info in my thread about the DO match rate in 2019 (and links to the 2016-2018 threads as well).

DrStephenStrange said:
I'd read this post by @hallowmann to understand the DO match rate:
forums.studentdoctor.net

DO Match Rate 2019

A few things: -Here are the 2016-2018 threads for reference - DO match rate 2016, DO match rate 2017, DO match rate 2018 -These numbers are all based on published reports. Reports sometimes have errors. Either way, hopefully this is useful. -This says nothing about the type of GME attained. Some...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

I think the 80% match rate you guys are referring to is only for the NRMP match, but DO still had the AOA match rate as well last year. On top of that there's also the military match. Overall I think the match rate for DOs was well over 93%, and the DO placement rate was 98%. We will know the true NRMP match rate for DOs this year since this is the year we finally have a complete residency merger between ACGME and AOA with only one match system.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

See above. The match rate reported by the NRMP match report is actually flawed in that it incorporates the DO graduate match rate with the DO senior match rate. Its all explained in my thread that you quoted.
 
Last edited:
hallowmann said:
Yup, details can be found in the thread below. The rate is somewhere in the 85-95% range for this past year, and most likely has been something like 87-89% for the last 4 yrs at least.

forums.studentdoctor.net

DO Match Rate 2019

A few things: -Here are the 2016-2018 threads for reference - DO match rate 2016, DO match rate 2017, DO match rate 2018 -These numbers are all based on published reports. Reports sometimes have errors. Either way, hopefully this is useful. -This says nothing about the type of GME attained. Some...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

OK, so I actually read this thread for the first time, so let me get up to speed:



To be honest, I was in your same shoes for a brief period of time, because I didn't know much about the DO degree. I quickly learned that the choice is obvious.

If your goal is practice medicine in the US, you need to go to medical school here. The facts have already been presented, so I won't rehash all of them, just fill in some gaps. Your chances of finishing medical school let alone placing in a residency from a Carib school (even the best Carib school) is on the order of 65%, if not lower. You'll also spend more for an even harder time attaining a residency, and there is a very large group of people that graduate from schools like SGU with no residency, and they literally work in fast food or jobs completely outside of medicine. If you search for those stories, you'll find them easily.

Even if you want to work abroad, going Carib is the wrong choice. I assumed initially, again until I actually researched it, that an MD degree is an MD degree, but the truth is most countries, including the US, view the Carib MD degree as generally much lower than other degrees. When I actually compared head-to-head the number of countries that were willing to license US DOs compared to MD from SGU, more countries still recognized the US DO degree, and that number is only increasing.

As far as how you'll be viewed, most people won't care. The less you care, the less you'll notice it. I'm pretty happy with my degree, and honestly the only times patients bring it up is when they comment on how much they love their DO PCP or how their daughter is in DO school now.



You've already been told, but that information is false. SGU at best can claim a placement rate somewhere in the 75-80% range. That completely ignores the 20-25%+ of people that are kicked out from each class.

To clarify some numbers, they actually accept on the order of 1800-2000 per academic year (spread across the semesters), so the first 5 terms have far more students than the 3rd and 4th year, but they are weeded out. Can you imagine dropping on the order of $90k/yr tuition alone (SGU's actual cost, but they divide it into weird length "terms" to make it seem like less - first 2 yrs tuition is >$180k and the whole 4 years is >$330k in tuition alone) only to be kicked out before you're even allowed to sit for USMLE Step 1? Plenty of SGU students experience that.

DO, even a brand new DO school, is a far safer bet than any Carib school. Average attrition at DO schools is ~7-8%, some with as little at 3-4% and others (the biggest offenders) closer to 12%. They all pale in comparison to even the best Carib MD school, which is at least double or triple that.

As far as the DO match rate on the NRMP report, that match rate include DO graduates, which generally bring down the match rate. To give you an idea, the US MD senior NRMP match rate is on the order of 93-95%, but if you incorporate US MD graduates, it pulls the average down to 90-91%. The true DO match rate is in the high 80s, with placement in the high 90s (i.e. similar to US MD senior placement rates). You can get more info in my thread about the DO match rate in 2019 (and links to the 2016-2018 threads as well).



See above. The match rate reported by the NRMP match report is actually flawed in that it incorporates the DO graduate match rate with the DO senior match rate. Its all explained in my thread that you quoted.
Click to expand...

Can you please clarify the difference between match and placement
 
Newyear said:
Can you please clarify the difference between match and placement
Click to expand...

Match is how many people logged into the NRMP site in March and got a "Congratulations, you have matched!" notification.
Placement is how many people have a home on July 1st.
 
Newyear said:
Can you please clarify the difference between match and placement
Click to expand...

Its explained in the match threads I linked to, but as stated by others, match only includes individuals who were interviewed, participated in a match service (i.e. NRMP, AOA, Military match, AUA, SF Match,etc.), ranked residency positions, were ranked by those residency positions, and ultimately an algorithm matched them to a specific program.

Placement includes all who have matched as well as those who have secured a GME spot (either internship or residency) by other means, e.g. the SOAP, scrambling, pre-match, off-cycle positions, etc.

The assumption/truth of the matter is that matching is inherently better than placement as you are more likely to match in a program type and program that you like/desire.
 
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Would you all say though in the long run Carribbean MD is better than DO? esp if one can make it through school to match day?
Click to expand...
NO, If you can make it to match day in the Caribbean, you're more likely to match into primary care programs at undesired locations and/or IMG malignant sweatshops. At least with DO you can also match some programs outside of primary care, and primary care programs in better locations.
 
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