USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

[D1Bound]

The students do have a skin in the problem. Ultimately, it’s their decision to take the insane debt. How many people made the best financial decisions in their lives at age 20?

The “least” informed stakeholder in the process are the students, while the government and schools are highly informed about the weight on putting 500-800k debt on a 20 yr old’s shoulders. I still think the endgame is some form of write off/forgiveness/stimulus that will put out this long ignored crisis. I think Biden will pull the trigger on it, just a hunch.

Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay someone else’s student loans? There are loads of people who didn’t go to college. They would be pretty upset having to pay for someone else as well.

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[yappy]

So should someone be free to become an indentured servant if they as a consumer do their due diligence? Can a despondent person sell their kidney for half a million dollars as long as they're a consumer who's done their homework? I'm not a libertarian so I don't believe they should.

My point is what you think should only affect your actions and choices. Some people may think it’s worth the price or risk of taking on that much debt. Imo the problem is that the government issues/backs that loan.

However, I think philosophically, you are wrong to make financial choices for other people.

 

[deleted903013]

My point is what you think should only affect your actions and choices. Some people may think it’s worth the price or risk of taking on that much debt. Imo the problem is that the government issues/backs that loan.

However, I think philosophically, you are wrong to make financial choices for other people.

Well, I think we all agree that the government guaranteeing these loans is insane and is the root of the problem. However, no, you actually don't have a right to just do whatever you want. I don't think students should be allowed to go 700k in debt compounding at 6% interest for a job only paying 120k in the same way they shouldn't be allowed to go into indentured servitude for 7 years even if they're fully informed in both cases.

 

[yappy]

Well, I think we all agree that the government guaranteeing these loans is insane and is the root of the problem. However, no, you actually don't have a right to just do whatever you want. I don't think students should be allowed to go 700k in debt compounding at 6% interest for a job only paying 120k in the same way they shouldn't be allowed to go into indentured servitude for 7 years even if they're fully informed in both cases.

Thank you benevolent ruler for saving me from myself.

And yes, one can take out loans for USC. You seem to have a weird moral framework where you believe you get to decide what others do.

 

[deleted903013]

Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay someone else’s student loans? There are loads of people who didn’t go to college. They would be pretty upset having to pay for someone else as well.

This is correct. The taxpayers really shouldn't have to suffer for something they didn't create. It was the universities who lobbied to help create this insane system where student loan debt is one of the only debts you can't declare bankruptcy on. Make the universities pay. Harvard has a 40 billion dollar endowment. Yale has a 30 billion dollar endowment. Seize the endowments and use that money to help those suffering.

 

[GoDental101]

This is correct. The taxpayers really shouldn't have to suffer for something they didn't create. It was the universities who lobbied to help create this insane system where student loan debt is one of the only debts you can't declare bankruptcy on. Make the universities pay. Harvard has a 40 billion dollar endowment. Yale has a 30 billion dollar endowment. Seize the endowments and use that money to help those suffering.

You seem to think the government is this magical entity that will fix all our problems. Cap the cost of school. Seize the money from the rich schools. Where does this stop? Drain the rich people's bank accounts to pay reparations for making all the poor people suffer? Take over all the farms to provide food for everyone?

C'mon man!

The government is the most inefficient part of our society anything they dip their hands into is only going to get worse so I'd recommend not advocating for them to drain institutions money cause they'll only come for yours next if they get that power.

 

[deleted903013]

Thank you benevolent ruler for saving me from myself.

And yes, one can take out loans for USC. You seem to have a weird moral framework where you believe you get to decide what others do.

Not really a weird moral framework. My opinion is that sometimes exploitation is too much. This is how all governments operate, even our own. Do you think the government should allow me to sell my organs on the black market? Hopefully you don't. I know that's an extreme example, but I think it illustrates that our government has a role in protecting us from exploitation.

You seem to think the government is this magical entity that will fix all our problems. Cap the cost of school. Seize the money from the rich schools. Where does this stop? Drain the rich people's bank accounts to pay reparations to making all the poor people suffer? Take over all the farms to provide food for everyone?

The government is the most inefficient part of our society anything they dip their hands into is only going to get worse so I'd recommend not advocating for them to drain institutions money cause they'll only come for yours next if they get that power.

Our government is not a magical entity. It's an insanely inefficient bureaucratic system. I've been to the DMV, it's rather horrendous. However, just because our government is bad doesn't mean we don't need laws. We still need laws to protect people. We need police and roads and even building regulations. Still, I agree the best solution is actually to get the government out of the guaranteeing student loans no matter the cost. On the flip side, pretending governments can't do anything to help people is silly.

 

[Cold Front]

I feel the winds have definitely changed when I first shadowed early 2010s. I’m now considering specializing which I never thought I’d do. This is in part due to how the game has changed

Speaking of the wind changing, supply and demand opportunities and the government’s ability to do something about it.

A brief (similar) history about yellow cabs/taxi...

In 2006, if you lived in a big city like NYC, and you wanted to invest in a lucrative business, a yellow cab permit/medallion was one of the best places to go at the time. They were going for about $400k in NYC, and you would have to buy it from an existing medallion owner - as the city no longer issued new medallions to limit cabs on the streets and competition. How do you come up with $400k? There were lenders that gave the money “easily” to a buyer because the lenders knew that it was a very low risk debt. The medallion owners made a “great living” and bought homes and had good life. Some yellow cab owners even leased their medallions to multiple drivers so do their medallion could be on the roads 24/7. Life was good!

It’s now 2014, medallion demand is off the charts and they are now worth $750k and people are “still” buying them. Lenders are “still” lending. The monthly payments on the loans skyrocketed as well. The lending became so predatory that it was targeting immigrants that really didn’t understand the risks of the big debt. It was a status symbol. Many immigrants signed the loans and took the big debt.

Uber and Lyft enter the game..... the price of medallion drops to the floor. Leaving many yellow cab medallion owners out of business instantly, but still stuck with high debt payments with a 30 year terms. The lenders would not care and expected the notes to be paid as agreed. Medallion owners are now in despair, they organize protests on the streets of New York for the city to step in and bail them out. Almost 10 medallion owners commit suicide for carrying to much debt but no to little income to support the payments.

Covid happens. All taxis are off the roads. Lenders still demand payments and issue a wave of delinquencies on borrowers credit reports.

Covid lockdowns end... Medallion owners protest again outside the city hall. The city doesn’t pay attention. The crowd grows every day. Hunger strikes begin. Media finally notices. It’s now 50 days of non stop protesting and in the middle of winter... the city’s hand is finally forced and issues a “debt relief” for the medallion owners last November.

My point is... the government will always use debt forgiveness as last resort, but the forgiveness is never off the table. That’s why I think, student debt will eventually be forgiven for the majority. Mark my words!

 

[FlowRate]

My point is... the government will always use debt forgiveness as last resort, but the forgiveness is never off the table. That’s why I think, student debt will eventually be forgiven for the majority. Mark my words!

The medallion owners should have declared bankruptcy so that the predatory lenders didn't recoup the money. That's what should be allowed to happen with student loans, as well.

 

[Cold Front]

The medallion owners should have declared bankruptcy so that the predatory lenders didn't recoup the money. That's what should be allowed to happen with student loans, as well.

The laws are usually written to keep industries in business. If lenders didn’t give the loan to medallion buyers, it would be bad for business and essentially less taxes. The government passes laws based on who lobbied for the law. That’s all there is to know about our legislative and financial systems.

One more thing about the medallion story... Remember Michael Cohen, former personal attorney of Donald Trump? Well, he owned 32 medallions, and had $22M note on it. He must have paid $700k+ for each. Anyways... he defaulted on the loan. The story came to light when Trump and his goons were investigated by Robert Mueller for the Russian elections interference. Cohen didn’t want his medallion debt he couldn’t pay to go public. Apparently, big names in New York were in the medallion business and contributed to the medallion prices to go up. It was a scarce commodity that the wealthy were offering some regular cab drivers $1M+ at one point. Kinda like rich parents telling their kids to apply to super expensive schools and that inflates the tuition for everyone else. Government did nothing about it until they did.

 

[FlowRate]

The laws are usually written to keep industries in business. If lenders didn’t give the loan to medallion buyers, it would be bad for business and essentially less taxes. The government passes laws based on who lobbied for the law. That’s all there is to know about our legislative and financial systems.

Well I think you're right in the sense that special interests often do effectively lobby to get special favor from the government. That's not how it should be, though. Same deal with the subprime mortgage crisis and bailing out the banks.

 

[charlestweed]

Even if my parents had $600K cash to pay off my tuition, I would much rather keep that and do something else with my life lol

And do what with this amount? Invest in stock? Are you good at stock investment? Invest in real estate? Here in So Cal, you can’t even buy ½ of the house with $600k. With the inflation, rising cost of gas, and ridiculously high home prices, $600k, IMO, is not a lot of money.

As a parent of a soon-to-be college student, I would not give my son $600k and tell him to go do whatever he wants with it. I don’t mind spending $600k (and much more if necessary) on his education if he chooses to become either a doctor or dentist. He may not be a rich doctor or dentist due to the competition and insurance pay cuts. But at least he can support himself and his family when we are gone. With a DDS or MD degree, he will be respected in the community. He has more leverage to find himself a nice girl to marry to. Nobody wants to marry a moocher, who lives off the parents’ money. There aren’t very many stable (stable is the keyword) jobs out there that pay well.

At this stage of their life, most of the applicants are in the final year of their college education. They have spent a lot of time to take the prerequisite classes and tried to earn good grades on them. Are you telling these predent kids to forget about dental schools? Just walk away with some undergrad student loan debts…..and do what with a BS degree (in Bio/Biochem), which is pretty much useless? What other choices do they have? Stay 5th, 6th year and take out more loans to take more classes to become an engineer? Med schools require much higher stats. If they don’t have good stats to get into cheaper dental schools, expensive schools like USC or NYU might be their only choice.

It’s still possible for a dentist with average clinical skills to bring home $200k if he/she works hard. If you can’t make $4-5 millions over a period of 20-30 years working as a dentist, there must be something wrong with you.

 

[PerioDont]

And do what with this amount? Invest in stock? Are you good at stock investment? Invest in real estate? Here in So Cal, you can’t even buy ½ of the house with $600k. With the inflation, rising cost of gas, and ridiculously high home prices, $600k, IMO, is not a lot of money.

As a parent of a soon-to-be college student, I would not give my son $600k and tell him to go do whatever he wants with it. I don’t mind spending $600k (and much more if necessary) on his education if he chooses to become either a doctor or dentist. He may not be a rich doctor or dentist due to the competition and insurance pay cuts. But at least he can support himself and his family when we are gone. With a DDS or MD degree, he will be respected in the community. He has more leverage to find himself a nice girl to marry to. Nobody wants to marry a moocher, who lives off the parents’ money. There aren’t very many stable (stable is the keyword) jobs out there that pay well.

At this stage of their life, most of the applicants are in the final year of their college education. They have spent a lot of time to take the prerequisite classes and tried to earn good grades on them. Are you telling these predent kids to forget about dental schools? Just walk away with some undergrad student loan debts…..and do what with a BS degree (in Bio/Biochem), which is pretty much useless? What other choices do they have? Stay 5th, 6th year and take out more loans to take more classes to become an engineer? Med schools require much higher stats. If they don’t have good stats to get into cheaper dental schools, expensive schools like USC or NYU might be their only choice.

It’s still possible for a dentist with average clinical skills to bring home $200k if he/she works hard. If you can’t make $4-5 millions over a period of 20-30 years working as a dentist, there must be something wrong with you.

Just because something is your ‘only choice’ does not make it a good choice.

All choices have consequences. You may be able to pay 600k for your kid but that is not true for the vast majority of society. For which making this choice is a very poor financial decision.

 

[DDS9994]

Everyone is free to make choices for their life. Therefore, It is the responsibility of the consumer to do their due diligence. These institutions are not breaking the law or breaking contracts. They are providing a product with transparent costs.

I think the problem we’re facing today is that market forces have been removed and from the student loan/ higher ed industry. The government is terrible at managing capital and what we’re seeing is the result of that the higher education industry. Government backed student loans are fueling the bubble.

I kind of agree with this, the high price and poor ROI for a good portion of perspective dental students has been beaten to death, and the applicants simply disregard that advice and say " OK boomer". These guys were smart enough to study their tails off for the DAT, O Chem, etc, they should be able to understand interest and high priced tuition. I think the system is gonna need to come to a head a t some point just like the mortgage crisis of '08, sucks.

 

[charlestweed]

Just because something is your ‘only choice’ does not make it a good choice.

IMO, it's still better than not becoming a dentist and get stuck with a useless Bio degree. It's still better than having a BA degree in History from USC with $200k debt.

All choices have consequences.

Yup, all choices have consequences. For those who got into cheaper dental schools, that's their reward for choosing to study hard to earn good grades in college. For those who got into more expensive schools, they will have to work harder after school to make up for their mistakes in college.

You may be able to pay 600k for your kid but that is not true for the vast majority of society.

Yeah I am glad I can afford to pay for my son's education. That's my reward for working 6 days a wk and on the weekends. The hard part now is to get acceptance to med or dental school....and not drop out.

For which making this choice is a very poor financial decision.

Not a poor choice at all, if you can make $ $250-300k a year, which is hard but not impossible. It depends on you....your work ethic. It maybe a poor choice, if you are an older 35+ yo nontraditional student who has less years to work to pay back debts.

 

[Cold Front]

It’s still possible for a dentist with average clinical skills to bring home $200k if he/she works hard. If you can’t make $4-5 millions over a period of 20-30 years working as a dentist, there must be something wrong with you.

It is possible. However....

Dentists average income needle has never moved in a positive direction and has been behind the inflation curve every year. If you made $200k in 2010 when I graduated, it would be equivalent to making $260k today, or probably $320k by 2030. Do you think the average dentist makes $260k today? Or will make $320k by 2030? I doubt it. Because insurances control the average dentist income. Hence why the average dentist income is shrinking IMO. If you show up to work for $200k by 2030, with high student debt, you lost.

I always wanted to put all this on a graph for people to understand, but never found a good graph to use.

 

[charlestweed]

It is possible. However....

Dentists average income needle has never moved in a positive direction and has been behind the inflation curve every year. If you made $200k in 2010 when I graduated, it would be equivalent to making $260k today, or probably $320k by 2030. Do you think the average dentist makes $260k today? Or will make $320k by 2030? I doubt it. Because insurances control the average dentist income. Hence why the average dentist income is shrinking IMO. If you show up to work for $200k by 2030, with high student debt, you lost.

I always wanted to put all this on a graph for people to understand, but never found a good graph to use.

I agree with everything you said Although today dentist salary numbers appear to much higher than what they were 20 years ago (my starting salary working part time as a GP during my GPR year was only $250/day), today new grad dentists actually make less because of inflation, high debts, and rising cost of living etc.

But my point was working as a dentist (despite making less) is still better than working in other jobs. Jobs in dentistry are more stable. Unlike other tech jobs, being a dentist, you are not required to constantly update your skills and knowledge…..or else, you will be replaced by a younger grad. I have practiced ortho the same way since graduation (zero update in technology) and I still get plenty of patients and the corp that I work for still values my skills.

At least there are ways in dentistry that you can do to bring home more than $200k or even $250-300k/year….by traveling to more than one office and working 6-7 days a wk. With such annual income, having $600k debt shouldn’t be a huge issue. It’s way better than having a BA in history with $200k debt. This hard work is only temporary….maybe 2-3 years. When you cut the $600k loan amount in half, you can cut back the work days. You can do this right after graduation, when you are still young, still single, no kid, in your mid 20s, and healthy. The medical students have to do at least 3 years of low pay residency before they can see the glory of having well paid jobs.

Today new grads may not be able to buy a flagship BMW or Mercedes like you and me when we first graduated. But they should be able to get an entry level one and pay $400-500/month to lease it.

 

[PerioDont]

IMO, it's still better than not becoming a dentist and get stuck with a useless Bio degree. It's still better than having a BA degree in History from USC with $200k debt.

Definitely agree a 200k BA in History is a bad idea

 

[yappy]

Why not be 40k in debt for a ba/bs, making 60-100k, and live in a normal state that has a middle class (not California)? To me, that option is way better than 600k on education.

This whole idea that md/dmd is the only valid career has got to go. Worse yet, many people don’t even like the careers and their parents force them i to it. It’s a disservice to them and their patients. There are too many great careers to list here.

If you have a BS go work for fish and wild life for 75k and retire in 20 years. Better yet, do what actually interests you. Whatever you do, do not go into 600k debt for a career.

 

[charlestweed]

Why not be 40k in debt for a ba/bs, making 60-100k, and live in a normal state that has a middle class (not California)? To me, that option is way better than 600k on education.

This whole idea that md/dmd is the only valid career has got to go. Worse yet, many people don’t even like the careers and their parents force them i to it. It’s a disservice to them and their patients. There are too many great careers to list here.

If you have a BS go work for fish and wild life for 75k and retire in 20 years. Better yet, do what actually interests you. Whatever you do, do not go into 600k debt for a career.

The problem is finding a job that pays $60-100k is not easy as you think. Job stability is another problem. My former trainer at a 24 hour Fitness club got his bio degree at UC Irvine, which was also my alma mater. I later ran into him and found out that he no longer does fitness training because the pay wasn’t good enough and there was too much pressure (to sell training sessions) from above. He switched to study to become a real estate agent. His predecessor, who also trained me, got a degree in kinisiology. He later quit his job for the same reason and moved back to live with his mom.

My wife’s former UCLA roommate also majored in Biochem. After graduation, she worked at UCLA’s financial aid office. Last week, my wife tried to contact her to ask her about my son’s scholarship and she still works there….and is still single. At least she’ll have a good retirement package since this is a government job.

 

[LFA20]

The problem is finding a job that pays $60-100k is not easy as you think. Job stability is another problem. My former trainer at a 24 hour Fitness club got his bio degree at UC Irvine, which was also my alma mater. I later ran into him and found out that he no longer does fitness training because the pay wasn’t good enough and there was too much pressure (to sell training sessions) from above. He switched to study to become a real estate agent. His predecessor, who also trained me, got a degree in kinisiology. He later quit his job for the same reason and moved back to live with his mom.

My wife’s former UCLA roommate also majored in Biochem. After graduation, she worked at UCLA’s financial aid office. Last week, my wife tried to contact her to ask her about my son’s scholarship and she still works there….and is still single. At least, she’ll have a good retirement package since this is government job.

I’d have to agree. Also these jobs are often unstable

 

[yappy]

I’d have to agree. Also these jobs are often unstable

Most people I know have 4 year degrees and make money in that range. They change jobs, but it’s usually voluntary to accept a better offer.

 

[charlestweed]

Studies have shown that people who have college degrees make more than HS grads. That’s because they tend to work harder and have bigger ambition than people who didn’t go to college.

In order to get paid $60-100k, you have to help produce for your boss at least 2-3 more than that salary amount. It’s capitalism. And if you fail to meet the production goal, your job will be taken away by someone who is more talented than you. It’s stressful to work under someone else and have deadlines to meet. That’s why you see a fairly large percentage of your dental classmates who are non-traditional students.

Last weekend, I met a 4th dental student who went to an Ivy school (I can’t name the school where he graduated from because he might read this forum’s thread) for bio major. He is in his late 40s and he will earn his DDS degree next month. He told me he should have gone into dentistry a long time ago. I didn’t ask him how much loan he took out because I’ve just met him. He has 3 kids. His wife is a doctor.

 

[8_man]

And do what with this amount? Invest in stock? Are you good at stock investment? Invest in real estate? Here in So Cal, you can’t even buy ½ of the house with $600k. With the inflation, rising cost of gas, and ridiculously high home prices, $600k, IMO, is not a lot of money.

I'm not arrogant enough to trade individual stock (I did in the past). Fortunately, I learned early on that it is not a sustainable way to make money.

Personally, I would put a good amount of the money into an index fund or ETF, let's say $200K. I would max out my retirement contributions each year. A good amount of the remainder would go towards a down payment on a small apartment or starter home (20% - $150K is realistic in the area I live in). Whatever is left will be for a rainy day.

As a parent of a soon-to-be college student, I would not give my son $600k and tell him to go do whatever he wants with it. I don’t mind spending $600k (and much more if necessary) on his education if he chooses to become either a doctor or dentist. He may not be a rich doctor or dentist due to the competition and insurance pay cuts. But at least he can support himself and his family when we are gone. With a DDS or MD degree, he will be respected in the community. He has more leverage to find himself a nice girl to marry to. Nobody wants to marry a moocher, who lives off the parents’ money. There aren’t very many stable (stable is the keyword) jobs out there that pay well.

Not a parent yet but I agree with your first sentence. I would not give my kids that amount of money up front and without conditions/planning.

At this stage of their life, most of the applicants are in the final year of their college education. They have spent a lot of time to take the prerequisite classes and tried to earn good grades on them. Are you telling these predent kids to forget about dental schools? Just walk away with some undergrad student loan debts…..and do what with a BS degree (in Bio/Biochem), which is pretty much useless? What other choices do they have? Stay 5th, 6th year and take out more loans to take more classes to become an engineer? Med schools require much higher stats. If they don’t have good stats to get into cheaper dental schools, expensive schools like USC or NYU might be their only choice.

Agreed, that is a difficult situation. Only the pre-dent can decide if it is worth it. To me, probably not. I would not have finished a degree in bio/chem if I had no intention to work in healthcare, or if I was not competitive enough to have a good chance at a low-cost program. I would have gone into accounting or engineering. My state university was cheap, so ROI would have been very worthwhile, and I do not mind repetitive tasks (accounting) or engineering.

 

[2TH MVR]

My point is... the government will always use debt forgiveness as last resort, but the forgiveness is never off the table. That’s why I think, student debt will eventually be forgiven for the majority. Mark my words!

What's that old saying? "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach that man how to fish and he eats every day."

Not sure you can save those affected now, but moving forward.
Wouldn't this money be better served with:

1. Policies to curtail excessive govt loans to professions where the debt re-payment:income ratio is unsustainable. Maybe cease govt backed loans to PRIVATE schools.
2. Policies directed at subsidizing STATE dental schools to lower the tuition with graduating dentists obligated to some sort of 1 year service to the state. How does Texas accomplish this?

Bottom line: if you have to use govt tax payer money ... use it to correct the system. You know. Treat the disease. Not the symptom.

 

[DDS9994]

Why not be 40k in debt for a ba/bs, making 60-100k, and live in a normal state that has a middle class (not California)? To me, that option is way better than 600k on education.

This whole idea that md/dmd is the only valid career has got to go. Worse yet, many people don’t even like the careers and their parents force them i to it. It’s a disservice to them and their patients. There are too many great careers to list here.

If you have a BS go work for fish and wild life for 75k and retire in 20 years. Better yet, do what actually interests you. Whatever you do, do not go into 600k debt for a career.

I live in pretty nice neighborhood, with nice houses. The majority of my neighbors are not dentists, they are in all kinds of fields, many in sales, engineering, business etc. All seem to be doing well, do I know for sure? no more than they know about me, but my point being, its not digging ditches or go to med/dental school, todays kids have many choices to get to a 6 figure salary. With the number of dental schools increasing its going to be harder and harder. When I left dental school 35 to 40% was always offered, now I hear alot of DSO who are eating up market share 25%, ouch. 600K debt and a nice house note, and six figure practice note? Your business skills and marketing better be on point.

 

[AONLINE]

The problem is finding a job that pays $60-100k is not easy as you think. Job stability is another problem. My former trainer at a 24 hour Fitness club got his bio degree at UC Irvine, which was also my alma mater. I later ran into him and found out that he no longer does fitness training because the pay wasn’t good enough and there was too much pressure (to sell training sessions) from above. He switched to study to become a real estate agent. His predecessor, who also trained me, got a degree in kinisiology. He later quit his job for the same reason and moved back to live with his mom.

My wife’s former UCLA roommate also majored in Biochem. After graduation, she worked at UCLA’s financial aid office. Last week, my wife tried to contact her to ask her about my son’s scholarship and she still works there….and is still single. At least she’ll have a good retirement package since this is a government job.

Back in undergrad I had a friend that was dead set on being pre-dent even before I decided on dentistry. She majored in Biochem, and she applied to dental schools 2 or 3 times but unfortunately did not get in. She is now a real estate agent, and apparently she's making pretty good money.

At least there are ways in dentistry that you can do to bring home more than $200k or even $250-300k/year….by traveling to more than one office and working 6-7 days a wk. With such annual income, having $600k debt shouldn’t be a huge issue. It’s way better than having a BA in history with $200k debt. This hard work is only temporary….maybe 2-3 years. When you cut the $600k loan amount in half, you can cut back the work days. You can do this right after graduation, when you are still young, still single, no kid, in your mid 20s, and healthy. The medical students have to do at least 3 years of low pay residency before they can see the glory of having well paid jobs.

Dr. Charlestweed, so in your opinion a debt/income ratio of 3:1 ($600k debt/200k annual income) is worth it to become a dentist? I was under the impression that a ratio of 1:1 is more reasonable.

 

[allantois]

As I've been saying the government should criminally charge them as these loans are NOT going to be paid off

 

[charlestweed]

I'm not arrogant enough to trade individual stock (I did in the past). Fortunately, I learned early on that it is not a sustainable way to make money.

Personally, I would put a good amount of the money into an index fund or ETF, let's say $200K. I would max out my retirement contributions each year. A good amount of the remainder would go towards a down payment on a small apartment or starter home (20% - $150K is realistic in the area I live in). Whatever is left will be for a rainy day.

This is a reasonable and responsible way to spend your $600k. If my son doesn’t want to become a doctor or dentist, I hope he will do things that are similar to what you suggested with his inherited money. The problem is this financial plan only yields a very average lifestyle. This would be a big downgrade in comparison to the current lifestyle that we have provided for our son. I prefer my son to be a dentist or doctor and has zero student loan debt. As parents, we always want our kids to grow up to be better and more successful than us. Being your own boss is always better than working for someone else.

Agreed, that is a difficult situation. Only the pre-dent can decide if it is worth it. To me, probably not. I would not have finished a degree in bio/chem if I had no intention to work in healthcare, or if I was not competitive enough to have a good chance at a low-cost program. I would have gone into accounting or engineering. My state university was cheap, so ROI would have been very worthwhile, and I do not mind repetitive tasks (accounting) or engineering.

I remember my 4th year in college was one of the most depressing years of my life. I didn’t know what to do with my life. I took the MCAT twice and did poorly both times. I felt I let my parents down. They had worked so hard with the hope that my siblings and I would have a better future. I felt if I quit now, I would be at the same spot as my HS friends, who didn’t go to college….and the 4 years that I had spent in college was a big waste of time. Being so depressed, I shared my story to a biochem lab partner and he handed me a DAT booklet and told me to study for the DAT with him. And that’s how I became a dentist. When I was in dental school, I just wanted to be a general dentist. My roommate, who was also my classmate and my lab partner, gave me the GRE application and told me to take the exam with him. And that’s how I became an orthodontist. I was fortunate to be surrounded by good helpful friends.

It was also much easier for me to make those decisions when school tuitions weren’t as high as they are today. Yeah, $600k debt for attending USC dental school is a tough pill to swallow.

 

[charlestweed]

I live in pretty nice neighborhood, with nice houses. The majority of my neighbors are not dentists, they are in all kinds of fields, many in sales, engineering, business etc. All seem to be doing well, do I know for sure? no more than they know about me, but my point being, its not digging ditches or go to med/dental school, todays kids have many choices to get to a 6 figure salary. With the number of dental schools increasing its going to be harder and harder. When I left dental school 35 to 40% was always offered, now I hear alot of DSO who are eating up market share 25%, ouch. 600K debt and a nice house note, and six figure practice note? Your business skills and marketing better be on point.

I also have a house in a nice neighborhood. Many of my neighbors lost their houses during the 2008 housing bubble. The neighbors who are doctors and dentists still have their houses. The neighbor who lived across from my house was a real estate agent. The bank took his house and later sold it to a new neighbor, who is an ER doc. My former dental classmate, who is an endodontist, also bought a bank owned house in this same neighborhood.

 

[charlestweed]

Dr. Charlestweed, so in your opinion a debt/income ratio of 3:1 ($600k debt/200k annual income) is worth it to become a dentist? I was under the impression that a ratio of 1:1 is more reasonable.

200k salary is the minimum if you are single and have no kid. And with such massive debt, you have to live like if you only make $30k a year for at least 3-4 years so you can cut that $600k debt in half..... don't just make the minimally required monthly payments. Hopefully, with 4 years of experience, you can work more efficiently......see more patients (make more money) with the less number of work hours and days. If you plan to get married, make sure you meet someone who is hardworking like you and helps contribute. Love, alone, is not enough. Financial dispute (lack of financial planning....stress of debt repayments etc) among the married couple is one of the reasons for divorce.

My wife and I owed $450k in student loans + 55k in credit card debt (my ortho school didn’t give me enough student loan so I had to live on credit card) + 1 leased BMW ($1200/month in payment). And our combined income right after graduation was in the low $300k. And we lived comfortably. 3 months later (I remember it was on the nation’s tragic day 9/11/2001), we bought our first house for $400k. We also gave our parents $1000/month to help them pay for their home mortage.

 

[charlestweed]

I think a dentist who has $600k debt is in better shape than the caller on this Dave Ramsey's show. Look at Dave Ramsey's reaction at the minute 2:18, when the caller said her husband has an advanced degree in MBA and she has a degree in Policy. I don't think Dave would have this same "hand gesture" if the caller was a dentist or a doctor.

 

[LFA20]

I think most people nowadays are not willing to make sacrifices(moving to a rural area, joining the military, working weekends, etc). Taking out loans and "figure out" about paying them later is easier to do than giving up the things I mentioned above.

@charlestweed your children are so lucky.. a lot of my colleagues still went the military route even though their parents are dentists/specialists. They ain't paying for their school ...

 

[charlestweed]

I think most people nowadays are not willing to make sacrifices(moving to a rural area, joining the military, working weekends, etc). Taking out loans and "figure out" about paying them later is easier to do than giving up the things I mentioned above.

@charlestweed your children are so lucky.. a lot of my colleagues still went the military route even though their parents are dentists/specialists. They ain't paying for their school ...

I think your military colleagues and you will have a more successful career than what my son will be able to achieve. Facing life’s challenges helps a person become more mature in decision making and increases his chances of success in life. I don’t think I would be where I am at now if I had rich parents who gave me everything. Working as a busboy at Disneyland and delivering newspapers during my HS and college years had taught me a lot.

There is a small failure on my part. I failed to convince my son to go to a cheaper school, UC Irvine, which offers him a $20k ($5k per year) scholarship. If he chose UC Irvine, which is within the commuting distance from home, he would continue enjoying the comfortable lifestyle that he currently has: his own room and bathroom, hot meal every day, fast gigabit internet speed, a car to drive around town etc. But he picked UCLA because it is a “more prestigious” school. It’s hard to convince him to go to a lesser known UC Irvine when 2 of his HS friends go to MIT, 2 go to Notre Dame, and 1 goes to UPenn. At UCLA, which offers him zero scholarship, he will have to share a dorm room with a roommate, will get much slower internet speed, and no car to drive around town. My wife, my wife’s sister, my sister, my sister’s daughter (his cousin, who is a first year engineering student at UCLA) all supported his decision. So it’s 5 against 1 ….I lost. The cost difference for attending UCLA (vs UC Irvine) will be $71k for 4 years, which is not too bad, fortunately. We still hide from our son the fact that we will pay for his professional school if he decides to become a dentist/doctor. I am not sure if giving my son everything is a good thing. But it's hard not to spoil your own child. Only time will tell.

 

[AONLINE]

I think your military colleagues and you will have a more successful career than what my son will be able to achieve. Facing life’s challenges helps a person become more mature in decision making and increases his chances of success in life. I don’t think I would be where I am at now if I had rich parents who gave me everything. Working as a busboy at Disneyland and delivering newspapers during my HS and college years had taught me a lot.

There is a small failure on my part. I failed to convince my son to go to a cheaper school, UC Irvine, which offers him a $20k ($5k per year) scholarship. If he chose UC Irvine, which is within the commuting distance from home, he would continue enjoying the comfortable lifestyle that he currently has: his own room and bathroom, hot meal every day, fast gigabit internet speed, a car to drive around town etc. But he picked UCLA because it is a “more prestigious” school. It’s hard to convince him to go to a lesser known UC Irvine when 2 of his HS friends go to MIT, 2 go to Notre Dame, and 1 goes to UPenn. At UCLA, which offers him zero scholarship, he will have to share a dorm room with a roommate, will get much slower internet speed, and no car to drive around town. My wife, my wife’s sister, my sister, my sister’s daughter (his cousin, who is a first year engineering student at UCLA) all supported his decision. So it’s 5 against 1 ….I lost. The cost difference for attending UCLA (vs UC Irvine) will be $71k for 4 years, which is not too bad, fortunately. We still hide from our son the fact that we will pay for his professional school if he decides to become a dentist/doctor. I am not sure if giving my son everything is a good thing. But it's hard not to spoil your own child. Only time will tell.

Charlestweed, so I’m assuming you’re paying for your son’s college at UCLA right? He’s so lucky to have you as a supportive parent who would do whatever you can to steer him towards success in life.

 

[Cold Front]

What's that old saying? "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach that man how to fish and he eats every day."

Not sure you can save those affected now, but moving forward.
Wouldn't this money be better served with:

1. Policies to curtail excessive govt loans to professions where the debt re-payment:income ratio is unsustainable. Maybe cease govt backed loans to PRIVATE schools.
2. Policies directed at subsidizing STATE dental schools to lower the tuition with graduating dentists obligated to some sort of 1 year service to the state. How does Texas accomplish this?

Bottom line: if you have to use govt tax payer money ... use it to correct the system. You know. Treat the disease. Not the symptom.

Unfortunately, our government doesn’t have that wisdom. They are always too late to arrive to crisis, and once they do, they over shoot the runway to fix the crisis. That’s why I’m hanging my hat for the student loan forgiveness. Think about it, who really has student loans? It’s the middle and lower class of society. The student debt debt has been going up higher than their income. Student debt is crippling them financially in the long term, specially when we get through a recession, or a depressive economy with big job losses. So far, the card the government is playing is to “freeze” all student payments, and kick the can down the road until the idea of forgiveness is widely accepted by everyone. Freezing the payments is a precursor to a forgiveness IMO. The student debt topic use to come up every few months in the news a decade ago. It’s now daily on all news outlets. Just google it, every publisher talks about. It will not go away anytime soon. The crazy thing, we don’t need congress to approve the forgiveness - the president can do it by himself. Will he do it? I think he will wait the right time before he leaves office. My best guess would be closer to the 2024 elections.

 

[D1Bound]

Unfortunately, our government doesn’t have that wisdom. They are always too late to arrive to crisis, and once they do, they over shoot the runway to fix the crisis. That’s why I’m hanging my hat for the student loan forgiveness. Think about it, who really has student loans? It’s the middle and lower class of society. The student debt debt has been going up higher than their income. Student debt is crippling them financially in the long term, specially when we get through a recession, or a depressive economy with big job losses. So far, the card the government is playing is to “freeze” all student payments, and kick the can down the road until the idea of forgiveness is widely accepted by everyone. Freezing the payments is a precursor to a forgiveness IMO. The student debt topic use to come up every few months in the news a decade ago. It’s now daily on all news outlets. Just google it, every publisher talks about. It will not go away anytime soon. The crazy thing, we don’t need congress to approve the forgiveness - the president can do it by himself. Will he do it? I think he will wait the right time before he leaves office. My best guess would be closer to the 2024 elections.

How can the president unilaterally use the people's money to pay for other people's loans? There are a lot of people out there that have been responsible with their own financial situation. I don't think this is going to go over well with large swaths of voters if the democrats try and just "forgive" loans. If anything, it would be 15-20k maybe.
Also, there's already student loan forgiveness. It's called the military or public service. The idea of straight up gifting people forgiveness for doing nothing makes zero sense.

 

[Cold Front]

Dr. Charlestweed, so in your opinion a debt/income ratio of 3:1 ($600k debt/200k annual income) is worth it to become a dentist? I was under the impression that a ratio of 1:1 is more reasonable.

The debt to income of 3:1 is dead end. Most lenders would not even talk to you. Remember, nothing is guaranteed in life. Your future income is based on potential income. It’s not a check given to you in advance. You work for it over a long period of time, in many cases decades. However, the debt is guaranteed if you sign off on it from day 1. It’s there until it’s paid off fully. Life comes with a lot of expenses; family with kids, home mortgage, potential health risks, etc. All could easily add up in the millions of dollars for that $200k/year potential income for some. A person has a better chance with all those things with less debt to live a happier life.

 

[Cold Front]

How can the president unilaterally use the people's money to pay for other people's loans? There are a lot of people out there that have been responsible with their own financial situation. I don't think this is going to go over well with large swaths of voters if the democrats try and just "forgive" loans. If anything, it would be 15-20k maybe.
Also, there's already student loan forgiveness. It's called the military or public service. The idea of straight up gifting people forgiveness for doing nothing makes zero sense.

The president’s executive order on the freeze of student loans multiple times saved borrowers $200B over last 2 years. He also did nearly $20B forgiveness on student loans since he came to office. He has a lot of options to do more forgiveness. I don’t think it will be for all, but most people will see debt relief before he leaves office. It’s a big and very political topic now. Just like the immigration amnesty of 1986, when all illegal residents in the US were given a path to become a permanent resident. President Reagan knew it was an unpopular move with the public, but it had to be done. Or Obamacare. Or the covid topless debt and money printing. There is a lot of decisions a nation eventually makes to move on from a crisis. We can’t just ignore it or keep talking about it without a big solution for it. We have to cut our losses eventually.

 

[D1Bound]

The president’s executive order on the freeze of student loans multiple times saved borrowers $200B over last 2 years. He also did nearly $20B forgiveness on student loans since he came to office. He has a lot of options to do more forgiveness. I don’t think it will be for all, but most people will see debt relief before he leaves office. It’s a big and very political topic now. Just like the immigration amnesty of 1986, when all illegal residents in the US were given a path to become a permanent resident. President Reagan knew it was an unpopular move with the public, but it had to be done. Or Obamacare. Or the covid topless debt and money printing. There is a lot of decisions a nation eventually makes to move on from a crisis. We can’t just ignore it or keep talking about it without a big solution for it. We have to cut our losses eventually.

One solution is to tell everyone to stop eating at restaurants, cut their netflix subscription, stop buying expensive clothes, work 6 days a week, and pay their loans off. But hey, I'm not an economist. I have no clue the broader implications of different solutions to the student debt thing.

 

[GoDental101]

I think there will be some cancelled debt 10k-40k before midterms. However, I don’t think they will ever cancel ALL student loan debt. Maybe that’s just me wanting to feel like finishing dental school with under 180k in debt is an accomplishment for me. If it’s all totally and completely forgiven then my efforts being thrifty, working at one time 3 jobs at once, and choosing the cheapest school will look dumb as compared to going to the most expensive school, leasing a nice car, and going on nice spring breaks like I see many of my peers doing.

 

[GoDental101]

That's just me and either way I'll be fine with it, but now come to think about some of my friends that joined the military to get their school paid for. Or those that chose to go into a trade to avoid the student debt. Loan forgiveness adds insult to injury to the people that actually were responsible and thought ahead. Taking away consequence for actions is a bad precedent to set for the upcoming generations. Why don't instead of loan forgiveness for those that went into debt for school we give everyone a hundred thousand? Sounds like a great idea, right?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Look, the bigger question here is why haven’t NYU and USC sent my watch?! My patience is wearing thin...

Big Hoss

 

[deleted903013]

One solution is to tell everyone to stop eating at restaurants, cut their netflix subscription, stop buying expensive clothes, work 6 days a week, and pay their loans off. But hey, I'm not an economist. I have no clue the broader implications of different solutions to the student debt thing.

Yes, just tell the people crippled by debt they were conned into with interest rates so high they can hardly touch the principle to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps".

 

[charlestweed]

Charlestweed, so I’m assuming you’re paying for your son’s college at UCLA right? He’s so lucky to have you as a supportive parent who would do whatever you can to steer him towards success in life.

Thank you! Yes, I opened a saving account and have automatically deposited $600/month into it since my son was 3 years old. Now, it has around $125k, which should be almost enough to cover his 4 years at UCLA. Since it’s just a regular saving account, I had withdrew cash from this account a couple of times in the past to put down payments and to pay off loans on my investment properties. And then I re-paid my son by depositing back the amount that I withdrew a few months later.

I told my son that this is like scholarship money. In order to get the financial support from me, he must not switch college major and must maintain at least a 3.5 GPA. If he drops out of college, he won’t see his inherited money until the day I die.

 

[charlestweed]

The debt to income of 3:1 is dead end. Most lenders would not even talk to you. Remember, nothing is guaranteed in life. Your future income is based on potential income. It’s not a check given to you in advance. You work for it over a long period of time, in many cases decades. However, the debt is guaranteed if you sign off on it from day 1. It’s there until it’s paid off fully. Life comes with a lot of expenses; family with kids, home mortgage, potential health risks, etc. All could easily add up in the millions of dollars for that $200k/year potential income for some. A person has a better chance with all those things with less debt to live a happier life.

3:1 is indeed a dead end. Who care about what the lenders think. You are not going to borrow more money when you owe such massive student loan debt amount. It's actually a good thing that lenders deny your loan applications....so you can discipline yourself not to spend the money that you don't have. You need to work hard to improve that debt to income ratio first by doing what Dave Ramsey has suggested: living like if you only make $30k a year, paying off smaller loans first etc. Once you improve the ratio to 1:1, hopefully after 3-4 years of hard work, you can take out more loan for a house or a practice if you want.

 

[Teeth and Titanite]

That's just me and either way I'll be fine with it, but now come to think about some of my friends that joined the military to get their school paid for. Or those that chose to go into a trade to avoid the student debt. Loan forgiveness adds insult to injury to the people that actually were responsible and thought ahead. Taking away consequence for actions is a bad precedent to set for the upcoming generations. Why don't instead of loan forgiveness for those that went into debt for school we give everyone a hundred thousand? Sounds like a great idea, right?

Interesting point about HPSP. I wonder if people that got the scholarship would still owe their service years if all debt became forgiven. It would not be reasonable to assume all of those same people would have become military dentists if the debt was not an issue.

 

[D1Bound]

Yes, just tell the people crippled by debt they were conned into with interest rates so high they can hardly touch the principle to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps".

Conned? That’s a bunch of rubbish man. Everyone gets a financial aid presentation when interviewing for schools. If you can do physics in college you can darn well understand what type of financial situation you’re going into. I don’t have any sympathy. Work more. Work harder. Spend less.

 

[PerioDont]

Thank you! Yes, I opened a saving account and have automatically deposited $600/month into it since my son was 3 years old. Now, it has around $125k, which should be almost enough to cover his 4 years at UCLA. Since it’s just a regular saving account, I had withdrew cash from this account a couple of times in the past to put down payments and to pay off loans on my investment properties. And then I re-paid my son by depositing back the amount that I withdrew a few months later.

I told my son that this is like scholarship money. In order to get the financial support from me, he must not switch college major and must maintain at least a 3.5 GPA. If he drops out of college, he won’t see his inherited money until the day I die.

Charles just curious why you opted for a savings account instead of 529 investment account? Was it for liquidity for your other investments? Of course good planning on your part.

 

[DDS9994]

Charles just curious why you opted for a savings account instead of 529 investment account? Was it for liquidity for your other investments? Of course good planning on your part.

I was gonna say the same thing. hind sight is 20/20 but put that money in Vanguard balanced fund which is rather conservative you get 200K plus today, and in a vanguard 500 fund you get 300K plus in the same account.