USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

[charlestweed]

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Charles just curious why you opted for a savings account instead of 529 investment account? Was it for liquidity for your other investments? Of course good planning on your part.

Yeah, a 529 plan may have been a better way but I want to have the flexibility of having some extra cash sitting in multiple saving accounts. So whenever there is an investment opportunity, I am ready and not have to go to the bank. That's how I was able to buy some properties at very good prices. That’s the beauty of having a good stable job. You don’t always have to do everything by the book….by what most financial experts have recommended. I am a big fan of Dave Ramsey. He’s totally against leasing a car. But I still lease new cars every 2-3 years. Just one Saturday work is enough to cover the monthly lease payments for 2 cars. Life is too short. Gotta have some fun.

 

[deleted903013]

Conned? That’s a bunch of rubbish man. Everyone gets a financial aid presentation when interviewing for schools. If you can do physics in college you can darn well understand what type of financial situation you’re going into. I don’t have any sympathy. Work more. Work harder. Spend less.

Higher education is a major scam. First, everyone from birth is told they have to go to college to make it in life. On top of this essentially all high paying jobs outside of the trades these days require higher education. To become a freaking librarian now you have to have a masters degree which is insane. Knowing this and the fact that the government guarantees student loans, schools completely jack up the prices because they know students need the diploma to get a decent middle class living. Moreover, actually, being able to do college physics clearly isn't correlated to understanding personal finance. Our educational debt is 1.7 trillion which is higher than the GDP of Russia. Maybe, just maybe, not all of these people who bought into the idea that college would be their ticket to stable work weren't just dumb.

 

[GoDental101]

Why don’t we make it so the schools themselves are in charge of loaning the money for students to finance their education and these loans can be dropped through bankruptcy. This would fix many problems. The schools would be motivated to provide a good education so their students can afford to pay back their debt. They would keep the prices lower to decentivize bankruptcy in order to avoid losing larger amounts of money. They would also suffer the costs if students did go bankrupt so they would be more considerate about what type of education they loaned the money for. Probably more benefits as well as cons but I think it’s a better way than the federal government backing the whole system.

 

[charlestweed]

Higher education is a major scam. First, everyone from birth is told they have to go to college to make it in life. On top of this essentially all high paying jobs outside of the trades these days require higher education. To become a freaking librarian now you have to have a masters degree which is insane. Knowing this and the fact that the government guarantees student loans, schools completely jack up the prices because they know students need the diploma to get a decent middle class living. Moreover, actually, being able to do college physics clearly isn't correlated to understanding personal finance. Our educational debt is 1.7 trillion which is higher than the GDP of Russia. Maybe, just maybe, not all of these people who bought into the idea that college would be their ticket to stable work weren't just dumb.

It's sad, isn't it? Not only they believe they have to go to college but they also have to go to "famous" private schools, which are ridiculously expensive, in order to get good jobs later on. I've come on here preaching about studying hard and getting good grades so you can get into a cheaper school. And yet, I couldn't even convince my own son to go to a cheaper school. And even smart highly educated adults, doctors and dentists, like my wife, my sister, my brother etc still believe that where you attend school does matter.....and they are siding with my son. Well, at least UCLA is a public school. The good thing is Claremont Mckenna College (an extremely expensive school in Claremont, CA that is super hard to get into) rejected my son.....my wife would let him go there if he got accepted.

 

[D1Bound]

Higher education is a major scam. First, everyone from birth is told they have to go to college to make it in life. On top of this essentially all high paying jobs outside of the trades these days require higher education. To become a freaking librarian now you have to have a masters degree which is insane. Knowing this and the fact that the government guarantees student loans, schools completely jack up the prices because they know students need the diploma to get a decent middle class living. Moreover, actually, being able to do college physics clearly isn't correlated to understanding personal finance. Our educational debt is 1.7 trillion which is higher than the GDP of Russia. Maybe, just maybe, not all of these people who bought into the idea that college would be their ticket to stable work weren't just dumb.

There’s tons of things that don’t require degrees that make cash. I know folks that folks that do them. Just own you’re own business

 

[8_man]

This is a reasonable and responsible way to spend your $600k. If my son doesn’t want to become a doctor or dentist, I hope he will do things that are similar to what you suggested with his inherited money. The problem is this financial plan only yields a very average lifestyle. This would be a big downgrade in comparison to the current lifestyle that we have provided for our son. I prefer my son to be a dentist or doctor and has zero student loan debt. As parents, we always want our kids to grow up to be better and more successful than us. Being your own boss is always better than working for someone else.

With the level of debt some of these new dentists are graduating with, they will be living a very average lifestyle for a very long time. I'm sure anyone who gets into dental school could apply themselves in another field and earn a competitive salary (accountants in the upper percentiles can make over $90K which isn't horrible). And this degree can be obtained for literally peanuts at a local college. Essentially, everything one earns at this point is pure equity (but you probably won't be your own boss).

Now considering your son's situation with a bankroll of $600K to start compounding interest right from the beginning (through real estate, index funds, etc.)... at a modest 7% interest, that's an extra $42K the first year, $44,940 the second year, etc. He could let this money ride until he retires, in which case he would have more than he would know what to do with, while also setting his own kids up for a very comfortable lifestyle.

The one thing I would hope for, and I'm sure you do as well, is that our kids will work hard and earn a respectable living. However, this is out of our control and it is up to them to want it for themselves. We may provide them a good lifestyle as they grow up and guide them in the "right" direction, but ultimately it is on them to sustain that level of success into the future when we are gone.

I remember my 4th year in college was one of the most depressing years of my life. I didn’t know what to do with my life. I took the MCAT twice and did poorly both times. I felt I let my parents down. They had worked so hard with the hope that my siblings and I would have a better future. I felt if I quit now, I would be at the same spot as my HS friends, who didn’t go to college….and the 4 years that I had spent in college was a big waste of time. Being so depressed, I shared my story to a biochem lab partner and he handed me a DAT booklet and told me to study for the DAT with him. And that’s how I became a dentist. When I was in dental school, I just wanted to be a general dentist. My roommate, who was also my classmate and my lab partner, gave me the GRE application and told me to take the exam with him. And that’s how I became an orthodontist. I was fortunate to be surrounded by good helpful friends.

I can sympathize with this, my path to dental school was almost identical to yours. Crazy how life just happens and we end up at a completely different destination than we had originally planned. Fortunately you are in an even better position now and are able to share that success with your family.

 

[charlestweed]

There’s tons of things that don’t require degrees that make cash. I know folks that folks that do them. Just own you’re own business

It’s not as easy as you think. First, you have to be willing to take some risks to open a business. To open a new business, you’ll need initial working capital. No bank would lend money to a person, who doesn’t have a college degree, without any collaterals, no good paying job, no house etc. Even for a small “hole in the wall” type of restaurant, it easily sets you back $100k. If you are a horrible chef and can’t attract any customers, that $100k goes down the drain. And worse than that……you can’t back out a long term lease contract that you sign with the landlord.

A lot of people have opened their own businesses, but that doesn’t mean that all of them have successful businesses. I eat out at a lot of restaurants. Many of them were super busy and I thought the owners must have done well. When I came back to some of these busy restaurants at a later time, they were sold and were operated by the new owners.

 

[charlestweed]

yes very sad. I went to community college for 2 years(cost 6k/year). Got perfect grades there. Then scholarship to 4 year university that covered 90% of my last 2 years and got close to perfect gpa. Got accepted to my state dental school (with military scholarship). And then after military service everyone qualifies for post 911 gi bill where we can go back to school to specialize at a state school for free PLUS a stipend with no additional obligation to the military. If it’s a private school it’s capped at 25k a year plus a stipend.

For Medical/dental always go to the cheapest school. I always tell my cousins that. But so hard to convince them when they want to go to super prestigious schools….

You are a smart man. These were very mature decisions that you made 👍. It wasn't easy for an 18 yo HS student like you to decide to go to a no name school while a lot of your HS classmates, who had the same GPA as you, chose to go to prestigious universities.

 

[charlestweed]

With the level of debt some of these new dentists are graduating with, they will be living a very average lifestyle for a very long time. I'm sure anyone who gets into dental school could apply themselves in another field and earn a competitive salary (accountants in the upper percentiles can make over $90K which isn't horrible). And this degree can be obtained for literally peanuts at a local college. Essentially, everything one earns at this point is pure equity (but you probably won't be your own boss).

It’s true that with such massive debt, these new grad dentists will have a very average lifestyle right after graduation. But it won’t be long if they work hard and discipline themselves not to live like they are the well established 40-50 yo dentists. At 26, they don’t need a house nor a nice car. Being young, healthy, no kids, they can work 6 days/week for the next 3-4 years to cut the debt in half. There's no reason why they can't do that. The medical doctors don’t get to earn a 6-figure income until they are in their 30s because of their long 3+ years residency after med school. Once they pay off some debts and improve the debt to income ratio to 1:1 or better (hopefully by their early 30s), they should have a similar lifestyle as the dentists who graduated with $200-250k debt. With strong discipline and hard work, by the time they are in their early-mid 40s, they should easily catch up with the engineering guys, who now start to worry about losing their jobs to the younger engineers.

Now considering your son's situation with a bankroll of $600K to start compounding interest right from the beginning (through real estate, index funds, etc.)... at a modest 7% interest, that's an extra $42K the first year, $44,940 the second year, etc. He could let this money ride until he retires, in which case he would have more than he would know what to do with, while also setting his own kids up for a very comfortable lifestyle.

For my son's situation, he will graduate with zero debt and the DDS or MD degree will guarantee him at least a $150k/year (if he’s a general dentist) salary….$200-250k (if he’s a family physician). I hope I can live long enough to see this day. My job will be done. I can close up shop and retire happily. This professional degree will stay with my son for the rest of his life. IMO, this is way better than telling him not to go to dental/medical school and giving him $600k to invest.

The one thing I would hope for, and I'm sure you do as well, is that our kids will work hard and earn a respectable living. However, this is out of our control and it is up to them to want it for themselves. We may provide them a good lifestyle as they grow up and guide them in the "right" direction, but ultimately it is on them to sustain that level of success into the future when we are gone.

Yeah, this is out of our control now. My son is an adult now (well, he will be this December…he skipped 8th grade🙂). We no longer have any control over him and his future. We can only hope that he’ll turn out to be a fine individual in the future.

 

[AONLINE]

For my son's situation, he will graduate with zero debt and the DDS or MD degree will guarantee him at least a $150k/year (if he’s a general dentist) salary….$200-250k (if he’s a family physician). I hope I can live long enough to see this day. My job will be done. I can close up shop and retire happily. This professional degree will stay with my son for the rest of his life. IMO, this is way better than telling him not to go to dental/medical school and giving him $600k to invest.

Say if your son ends up being a general dentist that makes $150k/year, how comfortable it is to live in California with that kind of income (assuming zero debt)? I was under the impression that one needs to earn much more in order to live a comfortable lifestyle in CA?

 

[charlestweed]

Say if your son ends up being a general dentist that makes $150k/year, how comfortable it is to live in California with that kind of income (assuming zero debt)? I was under the impression that one needs to earn much more in order to live a comfortable lifestyle in CA?

You are right. This is not a lot if you live in expensive counties like Orange, LA, and San Diego. Hopefully, he won’t just stop at $150k/year working as an associate dentist and wants bigger things in life like opening his own office, investing in real estate etc. He’s smarter than I am. He speaks better English than me. He’s not a timid person like me. This is his native country. If I can make it, so can he. I think he’ll be fine. The hard part right now is to get good enough grades for either med or dental school and not dropping out of school. I just keep praying.

 

[Roto Picante]

The president’s executive order on the freeze of student loans multiple times saved borrowers $200B over last 2 years. He also did nearly $20B forgiveness on student loans since he came to office. He has a lot of options to do more forgiveness. I don’t think it will be for all, but most people will see debt relief before he leaves office. It’s a big and very political topic now. Just like the immigration amnesty of 1986, when all illegal residents in the US were given a path to become a permanent resident. President Reagan knew it was an unpopular move with the public, but it had to be done. Or Obamacare. Or the covid topless debt and money printing. There is a lot of decisions a nation eventually makes to move on from a crisis. We can’t just ignore it or keep talking about it without a big solution for it. We have to cut our losses eventually.

I am going to call bull**** here. Take responsibility for your choices. If you take out a debt, pay it back. Just "cutting our losses" just punishes those who fulfilled their obligations.

 

[deleted903013]

I am going to call bull**** here. Take responsibility for your choices. If you take out a debt, pay it back. Just "cutting our losses" just punishes those who fulfilled their obligations.

same energy

 

[yappy]

View attachment 353403
same energy

Imagine voluntarily going into debt and not thinking you should have to pay it back?

 

[deleted903013]

Imagine voluntarily going into debt and not thinking you should have to pay it back?

Not really a weird moral framework. My opinion is that sometimes exploitation is too much. This is how all governments operate, even our own. Do you think the government should allow me to sell my organs on the black market? Hopefully you don't. I know that's an extreme example, but I think it illustrates that our government has a role in protecting us from exploitation.

I already responded to this argument. You never answered my question. I’ll add another, should an 18 year old be allowed to sell himself into indentured servitude?

 

[Cold Front]

I am going to call bull**** here. Take responsibility for your choices. If you take out a debt, pay it back. Just "cutting our losses" just punishes those who fulfilled their obligations.

Loose lending leads to crisis. Exhibit A: 2008 sub prime mortgage crisis. Don’t cut blank checks if you don’t want crisis. Don’t expect people to pay back their insane student debt under loose lending. It’s easy to blame the students without holding the government accountable. The government will do forgiveness to redeem itself. The bad actor here is the government not the student.

 

[yappy]

I already responded to this argument. You never answered my question. I’ll add another, should an 18 year old be allowed to sell himself into indentured servitude?

I don’t agree that optional student loans are exploitation or that it’s the role of government to protect us from ourselves. Especially when we’re talking about legal financial options that adults are choosing.
If one takes out a loan voluntarily, because they think it will benefit them, then it is their responsibility to repay the loan. Using the government to strong arm others into paying personal debts is unethical.

 

[deleted903013]

I don’t agree that optional student loans are exploitation or that it’s the role of government to protect us from ourselves. Especially when we’re talking about legal financial options that adults are choosing.
If one takes out a loan voluntarily, because they think it will benefit them, then it is their responsibility to repay the loan. Using the government to strong arm others into paying personal debts is unethical.

Higher education is a major scam. First, everyone from birth is told they have to go to college to make it in life. On top of this essentially all high paying jobs outside of the trades these days require higher education. To become a freaking librarian now you have to have a masters degree which is insane. Knowing this and the fact that the government guarantees student loans, schools completely jack up the prices because they know students need the diploma to get a decent middle class living. Moreover, actually, being able to do college physics clearly isn't correlated to understanding personal finance. Our educational debt is 1.7 trillion which is higher than the GDP of Russia. Maybe, just maybe, not all of these people who bought into the idea that college would be their ticket to stable work weren't just dumb.

See my response above on how it is exploitation. If it wasn't an insane exploitative scam that infected an entire generation of young people who thought college would help them, then our total student loan debt wouldn't almost be more than the entire GDP of most major countries. This isn't some forty year old taking out a stupid car loan, this is 18 year olds with no financial experience taking out 6 figure loans because they were told from birth (and somewhat correctly since even being a librarian requires a degree) that the only way to get a job is to have a college degree.

If almost all jobs now requiring a college degree and colleges knowing that so they intentionally jack up the prices on young kids who have zero financial experience to absurd levels isn't exploitation, what the heck is?

 

[yappy]

See my response above on how it is exploitation. If it wasn't an insane exploitative scam that infected an entire generation of young people who thought college would help them, then our total student loan debt wouldn't almost be more than the entire GDP of most major countries. This isn't some forty year old taking out a stupid car loan, this is 18 year olds with no financial experience taking out 6 figure loans because they were told from birth (and somewhat correctly since even being a librarian requires a degree) that the only way to get a job is to have a college degree.

Yet, there are many, many, people who saw through it and didn’t go to college due to cost, opted for cheaper education options, or managed to pay it off by controlling their costs while getting an education and budgeting afterwards. It’s not exploitation. It may have been a poor financial decision for some.

In fact, only around 39% of millennials have college degrees. Average student loan debt is 32k. Your response is not accurate or convincing. If anything it’s an exaggeration of what is actually going on. But even if ehat you described was true, the extreme example of the 100k+ in debt college graduate, it still doesn’t make sense for their debt to become the public’s debt. It was their decision to get the loan and they benefited from the education.

 

[deleted903013]

Yet, there are many, many, people who saw through it and didn’t go to college due to cost, opted for cheaper education options, or managed to pay it off by controlling their costs while getting an education and budgeting afterwards. It’s not exploitation. It may have been a poor financial decision for some.

In fact, only around 39% of millennials have college degrees. Average student loan debt is 32k. Your response is not accurate or convincing. If anything it’s an exaggeration of what is actually going on. But even if ehat you described was true, the extreme example of the 100k+ in debt college graduate, it still doesn’t make sense for their debt to become the public’s debt. It was their decision to get the loan and they benefited from the education.

Saying that there are people who didn't go to college or went cheaply is just as silly as saying the average poor person won't sell their kidney on the black market.

Moreover, your statistic is misleading. 39% have college degrees, HOWEVER, 66% of 2019 high school graduates enrolled in college which proves my entire point that it's engrained in nearly 7 out of 10 high school graduates that they need a degree. To put this in perspective, 45 million Americans (one in four) hold student loan debt with an average of $37,000 that is compounding with interest. Keep in mind, these people with this debt aren't making 120k as a dentist, Instead, many of them are making so little they can hardly afford to pay off their interest. Additionally, these people who didn't go to college are doing worse on average than people who have college degrees. As I've stated many many times, most high paying jobs now require a 4 year degree hence why so so many people are enrolling in college. If you were graduating high school today without a college degree, you'd have a very very tough time in the job market. You shouldn't have to incur an average of 37k in debt just for the chance at having a good job. This is an exploitative scam.

Here's terrifying statistic: nearly 70% of millennial say they would be willing to vote for a socialist. Given this current system that is making young people so much poorer, it's hard to blame them.

 

[yappy]

Saying that there are people who didn't go to college or went cheaply is just as silly as saying the average poor person won't sell their kidney on the black market.

Moreover, your statistic is misleading. 39% have college degrees, HOWEVER, 66% of 2019 high school graduates enrolled in college which proves my entire point that it's engrained in nearly 7 out of 10 high school graduates that they need a degree. To put this in perspective, 45 million Americans (one in four) hold student loan debt with an average of $37,000 that is compounding with interest. Keep in mind, these people with this debt aren't making 120k as a dentist, Instead, many of them are making so little they can hardly afford to pay off their interest. Additionally, these people who didn't go to college are doing worse on average than people who have college degrees. As I've stated many many times, most high paying jobs now require a 4 year degree hence why so so many people are enrolling in college. If you were graduating high school today without a college degree, you'd have a very very tough time in the job market. You shouldn't have to incur an average of 37k in debt just for the chance at having a good job. This is an exploitative scam.

Here's terrifying statistic: nearly 70% of millennial say they would be willing to vote for a socialist. Given this current system that is making young people so much poorer, it's hard to blame them.

Some people do have it tough because of bad or unfortunate decisions. I acknowledge that. My point is that it is not other peoples responsibility to pay for it. My comment about college debt was not silly. Only 1 in 8 (12.9%) people in the US have college student loan debt per US department of education. And it's only 30ish K. And they're young. They can recover with proper budgeting if they choose to. Besides that, college is really a choice. I think that is where you and I differ. Everyone knows about the college loan issue today, and everyone takes the training before accepting the loan.

 

[GoDental101]

See my response above on how it is exploitation. If it wasn't an insane exploitative scam that infected an entire generation of young people who thought college would help them, then our total student loan debt wouldn't almost be more than the entire GDP of most major countries. This isn't some forty year old taking out a stupid car loan, this is 18 year olds with no financial experience taking out 6 figure loans because they were told from birth (and somewhat correctly since even being a librarian requires a degree) that the only way to get a job is to have a college degree.

If almost all jobs now requiring a college degree and colleges knowing that so they intentionally jack up the prices on young kids who have zero financial experience to absurd levels isn't exploitation, what the heck is?

There's a lot of great jobs that don't require college degrees. I'm assuming you grew up or lived in a liberal leaning area? Back where I'm from it's more of a conservative area and most people don't actually go to college. They are not complaining about not being able to find a good job. Unfortunately, most schools (liberal leaning) convince kids they need a college degree to be successful then they end up in debt and sitting at a computer getting bossed around to do paperwork and sit in on meetings. Then they end up stressed out and obese.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

There's a lot of great jobs that don't require college degrees.

My brother is in “dentistry” and makes $200,000+. What does he do? He’s a sales rep for a dental supply company. He makes more than many of the GPs he services.

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

My brother is in “dentistry” and makes $200,000+. What does he do? He’s a sales rep for a dental supply company. He makes more than many of the GPs he services.

Big Hoss

And has 0 student loans. Cherry on the top!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

And has 0 student loans. Cherry on the top!

And by the time he bothers to even leave his house in the morning, I’ve already been at work for 2-3 hours.

Big Hoss

 

[PerioDont]

And has 0 student loans. Cherry on the top!

We got the top 6! Nice.

 

[deleted903013]

There's a lot of great jobs that don't require college degrees. I'm assuming you grew up or lived in a liberal leaning area? Back where I'm from it's more of a conservative area and most people don't actually go to college. They are not complaining about not being able to find a good job. Unfortunately, most schools (liberal leaning) convince kids they need a college degree to be successful then they end up in debt and sitting at a computer getting bossed around to do paperwork and sit in on meetings. Then they end up stressed out and obese.

No, I grew up in a conservative area and was raised conservative. I'm one of the few people where college actually made me more conservative. The people I know who didn't go to college are absolutely doing worse than those who did-besides the people I know who are in the trades. There are still ways to get good work without a college degree but they're diminishing. As a dentist, I'll make more starting than my dad ended his career with which is awesome and my debt load will be just shy of 200k. Dentistry has been a good investment for me. I was lucky I actually worked full time and learned personal finance before dental school. Before this, I had no concept of debt or money and probably would've gone to one of the Ivy League schools I got into which would've cost me about 600k. This is why I'm so sympathetic to people who go into debt for college. They're young kids most of whom don't even know how interest works, yet we let them take out 6 figure amounts for useless degrees. That could've easily been me or any of us. They shouldn't be allowed to do this. Blaming students for 1.7 trillion in educational debt is crazy to me.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

We got the top 6! Nice.

With dental school already being the most expensive professional school, combined with the fact that many specialties charge tuition unlike our physician counterparts, we simply can’t be beat!

Big Hoss

 

[GoDental101]

No, I grew up in a conservative area and was raised conservative. I'm one of the few people where college actually made me more conservative. The people I know who didn't go to college are absolutely doing worse than those who did-besides the people I know who are in the trades. There are still ways to get good work without a college degree but they're diminishing. As a dentist, I'll make more starting than my dad ended his career with which is awesome and my debt load will be just shy of 200k. Dentistry has been a good investment for me. I was lucky I actually worked full time and learned personal finance before dental school. Before this, I had no concept of debt or money and probably would've gone to one of the Ivy League schools I got into which would've cost me about 600k. This is why I'm so sympathetic to people who go into debt for college. They're young kids most of whom don't even know how interest works, yet we let them take out 6 figure amounts for useless degrees. That could've easily been me or any of us. They shouldn't be allowed to do this. Blaming students for 1.7 trillion in educational debt is crazy to me.

Interesting take. My friends that didn't go to college either did the military or went into the trades, one even became a computer programmer and is doing pretty great. They are doing way better than most my friends that went to college. Of my friends that went to college (besides those that went on for further education past the 4 years of undergrad), one works as a normal associate a wal-mart, one works at starbucks, a handful work in call-centers. I can't think of a single one that went to college that got a desirable job without needing to do some sort of post-bacc study which of course is what we are all doing. It's just anecdotal, but that's what my experience has been. In my opinion everyone should take more caution when choosing to go to college rather than just assuming "oh I am going to college I'll be better off than if I didn't". It's more about what you do to better yourself and learn actual skills during those years of either going to college or not going to college.

 

[D1Bound]

And by the time he bothers to even leave his house in the morning, I’ve already been at work for 2-3 hours.

Big Hoss

But does he have the ability to push drugs and shuck wizzies?

 

[2TH MVR]

And has 0 student loans. Cherry on the top!

Hey. I'm #1. Sweet.

 

[Cold Front]

Hey. I'm #1. Sweet.

These days you can financially be punished to be #1.

 

[charlestweed]

And has 0 student loans. Cherry on the top!

This rank list is irrelevant because not all jobs pay the same and have the same stability. If you earn a good income (depends heavily on your work ethic) and you only need to use a small fraction of your income to pay back the student loan debt, you will still end up being a lot richer than someone, who has zero debt but only earns a fraction of what you earn.

I’d rather owe $600k to become a dentist than being a HS History teacher who has $200k debt. I'd rather be an orthodontist, who ranks #1 on this list in term of debt, than being a 12th ranked chiropractor, who only owes 1/3 to 1/2 of what I owe. That's because I can easily increase my income by working on the weekends as an orthodontist. I am not sure if a chiropractor can increase his income even if he's willing to work on the weekends.

Look at Dave Ramsey’s reaction (at minute 0:58) when the caller said her husband is a chiropractor.

 

[2TH MVR]

I’d rather owe $600k to become a dentist than being a HS History teacher who has $200k debt. I'd rather be an orthodontist, who ranks #1 on this list in term of debt, than being a 12th ranked chiropractor, who only owes 1/3 to 1/2 of what I owe. That's because I can easily increase my income by working on the weekends as an orthodontist. I am not sure if a chiropractor can increase his income even if he's willing to work on the weekends.

I agree with most of your post. An orthodontist has more opportunities to pay down that debt. No question.

I think the question is. What level of debt specific for a profession (such as ortho) will not be worth the day to day grind of working to pay off a monumental debt? You're OK with 600K. Next year ... it goes to 700K .... and higher. The new orthodontist my DSO just hired owes just over 800K. This person is genuinely concerned with his future.

There will come a debt point that not even YOU (Dr. Super WEED) working 6 days a week. Sundays. Multiple jobs. Your incredible work ethic. Will not be worth the effort to overcome the increasing debt.

So. As you work harder and harder to overcome an ever increasing DS debt. The new private dental schools (CTOR, Georgia Academy, etc. etc.) will keep popping up and applaud all your hard work. Your "hard work will solve everything mentality" puts more money into their pockets.

The current increasing debt situation is not sustainable long term.

 

[Cold Front]

I’d rather owe $600k to become a dentist than being a HS History teacher who has $200k debt. I'd rather be an orthodontist, who ranks #1 on this list in term of debt, than being a 12th ranked chiropractor, who only owes 1/3 to 1/2 of what I owe. That's because I can easily increase my income by working on the weekends as an orthodontist. I am not sure if a chiropractor can increase his income even if he's willing to work on the weekends.

Most people can’t “easily” increase their income. Even if you work weekends, that’s time away from family, community, and life. You would be trying to pay off “monetary debt” with “time debt”. You may justify the weekend work schedule as temporary, but it would come at a cost to something else.

Also, I would not do dentistry no matter how much I love it if I were in a situation where I had to take out $600-800k in loans just to work weekends, even for few years. Isn’t the whole point of what makes dentistry attractive is to have the opportunity to balance life and work? It sounds like more work, less life to me. It doesn’t matter if it’s for few years or not, debt will increase every year for future dentists, they will be held down by a bigger and bigger ball and chain every year. If you are 16 years old today and plan to be an orthodontist, you would be facing $1M+ in debt. Even if a parent can afford it. Why?????!!

 

[Cold Front]

As you work harder and harder to overcome an ever increasing DS debt. The new private dental schools (CTOR, Georgia Academy, etc. etc.) will keep popping up and applaud all your hard work. Your "hard work will solve everything mentality" puts more money into their pockets.

The current increasing debt situation is not sustainable long term.

How does the saying go? Work smarter, not harder.

 

[charlestweed]

Most people can’t “easily” increase their income. Even if you work weekends, that’s time away from family, community, and life. You would be trying to pay off “monetary debt” with “time debt”. You may justify the weekend work schedule as temporary, but it would come at a cost to something else.

Also, I would not do dentistry no matter how much I love it if I were in a situation where I had to take out $600-800k in loans just to work weekends, even for few years. Isn’t the whole point of what makes dentistry attractive is to have the opportunity to balance life and work? It sounds like more work, less life to me. It doesn’t matter if it’s for few years or not, debt will increase every year for future dentists, they will be held down by a bigger and bigger ball and chain every year. If you are 16 years old today and plan to be an orthodontist, you would be facing $1M+ in debt. Even if a parent can afford it. Why?????!!

Even at $1mil in debt, an ortho should still be in a much better shape than the chiropractor (in the youtube video above), who has 400k debt and only earns $78k/year. And sadly, his wife is pregnant and doesn't work.

If an ortho can bring home $300k a year, he should make $6 million after 20 yrs of working. He should be able to clear that $1 million student loan debt. By that time, he is only 50 yo if he went the traditional route and became an ortho at 30. This $300k/year salary is very conservative estimation....$1200/day pay x 5 days/wk x 50 wks/year. My DSO pays a new grad $1400/day. And this $300k/yr salary shouldn't stay the same....unless he's a slow and incompetent orthodontist. With years of experience, he should make a lot more than $300k a year.

It's good that the ortho colleague at your DSO is concerned about his $800k debt. This should help motivate him to work harder and be more careful with his spendings. If he can make $300k a year, he should end up being a lot richer than a general dentist who has zero debt but only works 4 days a week and only makes only $120k a year.

At least there is a way out of debt for an ortho if he works hard. Much better than having a history degree with $200k debt.

 

[charlestweed]

Most people can’t “easily” increase their income. Even if you work weekends, that’s time away from family, community, and life. You would be trying to pay off “monetary debt” with “time debt”. You may justify the weekend work schedule as temporary, but it would come at a cost to something else.

Also, I would not do dentistry no matter how much I love it if I were in a situation where I had to take out $600-800k in loans just to work weekends, even for few years. Isn’t the whole point of what makes dentistry attractive is to have the opportunity to balance life and work? It sounds like more work, less life to me. It doesn’t matter if it’s for few years or not, debt will increase every year for future dentists, they will be held down by a bigger and bigger ball and chain every year. If you are 16 years old today and plan to be an orthodontist, you would be facing $1M+ in debt. Even if a parent can afford it. Why?????!!

You are right. Most people can't....and choose not to work hard (ie on the weekends). That's why there are very few hard working successful millionaires in this country.....less than 10%. Can't be rich if you don't want to work.

It's good that most orthodontists don't work crazily hard like me. Because if they all did, I wouldn't have enough patients to treat and the corp jobs wouldn't be easy for me to find.....and I would be in serious financial trouble.

 

[charlestweed]

Q

If you are 16 years old today and plan to be an orthodontist, you would be facing $1M+ in debt. Even if a parent can afford it. Why?????!!

Because $1 million only helps keep the child comfortable for a few years. But if you teach the child how to fish (give him a debt free education to become an ortho), you feed him for a lifetime. When you give a child free $1million he will treat this amount differently than if he earns this same $1million through his own sweat and labor. Work doesn’t just help bring in the money. It teaches a person a lot of things in life.

When you have a child of your own, you will understand. Giving your child your money is not as simple as you think....it's how you want your child uses your hard earned money. Not every rich parent is as lucky as the former president, Donald Trump. All of his adult children are very responsible and successful people. I know you are not a fan of his but IMO, he is very good at educating his children.

 

[Cold Front]

If an ortho can bring home $300k a year, he should make $6 million after 20 yrs of working. He should be able to clear that $1 million student loan debt. By that time, he is only 50 yo if he went the traditional route and became an ortho at 30. This $300k/year salary is very conservative estimation....$1200/day pay x 5 days/wk x 50 wks/year. My DSO pays a new grad $1400/day. And this $300k/yr salary shouldn't stay the same....unless he's a slow and incompetent orthodontist. With years of experience, he should make a lot more than $300k a year.

There is a lot of big “if’s” built into your maths.

First of all, let’s expand on the realities of the potential income. In dentistry, incomes are not constant from decade to decade. It’s typically in 3 phases; the learning curve income, the peak of your powers income, and the slowing down income. The “average” between the 3 stages in ortho is probably $300-400k PRE-TAX. or $200-300k POST-TAX if you file jointly/married. That’s $17-25k/month take home on average for an orthodontist’s career, today! Remember, it’s an average, some years they would make more (peak years), some years less (beginning and the end of the career). Now that we’ve established what to expect in income, let’s look at the next thing... the debt.

The 600-800k debt in 2022 (which we all agree will be higher for future doctors). Under a 25 years repayment plan (the longest repayment plan), the monthly repayment is about 6-8k a month POST-TAX. If a doctor wants to pay it back sooner, great!... we know the average income over career is 17-25k/month POST-TAX, so the 6-8k debt repayment is about 40-50% of the average income. Pay more debt, less for you and your family. It’s definitely doable.

Now ask yourself this... you worked VERY hard to become an orthodontist to get good grades (deep stress and sweat) and UNPAID residency, took out TONS of debt, busted your butt at work (we all know real world is no joke when you are in the grind)... and you can’t even enjoy it financially when it’s all said and done. Half of your average paycheck goes towards student loans for a VERY long time. Even if you work harder and pay off the debt sooner, you would sacrifice your most energetic and enjoyable years of life to focus on paying debt off instead of saving more. It gives the meaning of “enjoying the fruits of your labor” a whole different meaning. When you get to your late 40’a and early 50’s, you would finally enjoy yourself. That’s just wrong.

Its odd to me how someone would justify a debt that keeps rising can be negated with an inelastic average income. There are only a set number of patients an orthodontist can see a day. So much the insurances and patients can pay. Our body can only handle so much effort over a career. But with debt, if it’s is only growing, all bets are off.

 

[charlestweed]

There is a lot of big “if’s” built into your maths.

First of all, let’s expand on the realities of the potential income. In dentistry, incomes are not constant from decade to decade. It’s typically in 3 phases; the learning curve income, the peak of your powers income, and the slowing down income. The “average” between the 3 stages in ortho is probably $300-400k PRE-TAX. or $200-300k POST-TAX if you file jointly/married. That’s $17-25k/month take home on average for an orthodontist’s career, today! Remember, it’s an average, some years they would make more (peak years), some years less (beginning and the end of the career). Now that we’ve established what to expect in income, let’s look at the next thing... the debt.

The 600-800k debt in 2022 (which we all agree will be higher for future doctors). Under a 25 years repayment plan (the longest repayment plan), the monthly repayment is about 6-8k a month POST-TAX. If a doctor wants to pay it back sooner, great!... we know the average income over career is 17-25k/month POST-TAX, so the 6-8k debt repayment is about 40-50% of the average income. Pay more debt, less for you and your family. It’s definitely doable.

Now ask yourself this... you worked VERY hard to become an orthodontist to get good grades (deep stress and sweat) and UNPAID residency, took out TONS of debt, busted your butt at work (we all know real world is no joke when you are in the grind)... and you can’t even enjoy it financially when it’s all said and done. Half of your average paycheck goes towards student loans for a VERY long time. Even if you work harder and pay off the debt sooner, you would sacrifice your most energetic and enjoyable years of life to focus on paying debt off instead of saving more. It gives the meaning of “enjoying the fruits of your labor” a whole different meaning. When you get to your late 40’a and early 50’s, you would finally enjoy yourself. That’s just wrong.

Its odd to me how someone would justify a debt that keeps rising can be negated with an inelastic average income. There are only a set number of patients an orthodontist can see a day. So much the insurances and patients can pay. Our body can only handle so much effort over a career. But with debt, if it’s is only growing, all bets are off.

You forget the fact that the more debts that you pay off, the higher net income you will have. If you use Dave Ramsey’s debt snowball method and cut your $600k loan debt in half after 3-4 years of hard work, your required monthly loan payment month will decrease from $7-8k a month to just $3-4k a month. This means that for the same gross income that you earn and the same number of days per wk that you work, you now have an extra $3-4k every month to do whatever you want….traveling, investing in real estate, setting up your own office or continue to pay down the remaining half of your student loan debt.

My wife and I make much less now because she only works 1.5 days/wk and I only work 4.5 days a week. And our net income is still higher now than when we both worked 6 days a week. That’s because we have zero debt to pay back…..just annual property tax, rental property taxes, and small utility bills.

I can’t complain because working as an ortho is 100x easier than working as a general dentist. Working as a general dentist is easier than as a medical doctor……9-5, shorter work hours per day, don’t have to be on call, no weekend work hours if you choose not work on the weekends. Because doctors have to save lives, they have to work all the time….and have to treat patients even if the patients can’t pay them.

Even when we owed $2-3 millions (home loans, practice loans, investment property loans, etc), we could still afford to travel everywhere and stay at nice hotels. My office manager, who is her mid 50s, doesn’t know what it is like to have a vacation in Hawaii. I pay her $40k/year and she is living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[qwerty89]

I already responded to this argument. You never answered my question. I’ll add another, should an 18 year old be allowed to sell himself into indentured servitude?

Should an 18 year old be allowed to fight in a war and put his or her actual life in danger?

 

[2TH MVR]

You forget the fact that the more debts that you pay off, the higher net income you will have. If you use Dave Ramsey’s debt snowball method and cut your $600k loan debt in half after 3-4 years of hard work, your required monthly loan payment month will decrease from $7-8k a month to just $3-4k a month. This means that for the same gross income that you earn and the same number of days per wk that you work, you now have an extra $3-4k every month to do whatever you want….traveling, investing in real estate, setting up your own office or continue to pay down the remaining half of your student loan debt.

My wife and I make much less now because she only works 1.5 days/wk and I only work 4.5 days a week. And our net income is still higher now than when we both worked 6 days a week. That’s because we have zero debt to pay back…..just annual property tax, rental property taxes, and small utility bills.

I can’t complain because working as an ortho is 100x easier than working as a general dentist. Working as a general dentist is easier than as a medical doctor……9-5, shorter work hours per day, don’t have to be on call, no weekend work hours if you choose not work on the weekends. Because doctors have to save lives, they have to work all the time….and have to treat patients even if the patients can’t pay them.

Even when we owed $2-3 millions (home loans, practice loans, investment property loans, etc), we could still afford to travel everywhere and stay at nice hotels. My office manager, who is her mid 50s, doesn’t know what it is like to have a vacation in Hawaii. I pay her $40k/year and she is living paycheck to paycheck.

Again.
You are more the exception than the rule. Right? You've mentioned it many times that most of your ortho colleagues are not willing to work and practice ortho like you. Some will. Some will work 6 days a week and bust their a** and do fine. Many won't and will complain. You also have a high income spouse adding to the net income you bring home. Not to mention you've made some nice investment choices. You are an exception. Maybe an outlier in terms of how hard you work.

Now. I agree with @Cold Front posts. I can tell you that I did not go into dentistry/ortho to work 6 days a week. No way. Nada. I went into ortho for the easier lifestyle (4 day work weeks) and to make bank. I didn't start getting paid until I was around age 28. Trust me. Delayed gratification was getting exhausting. It was time to have some fun and spend some money. Luckily .... my debt was less than 100K for EVERYTHING. Scholarships. Ortho stipend residency. Etc. etc. That was possible back when I went to school.

Now the present. 800K and above to become an orthodontist? Holy crap. Everyone knows that the economics of practicing ortho now is not as good as it once was. You're working long hours (or were). Using low fees and low overhead to appeal to a certain demographic. And you are very successful. Can every indebted young ortho do what you have done? Frankly. They may not have a choice.

Happy Easter everyone.

 

[Cold Front]

You forget the fact that the more debts that you pay off, the higher net income you will have. If you use Dave Ramsey’s debt snowball method and cut your $600k loan debt in half after 3-4 years of hard work, your required monthly loan payment month will decrease from $7-8k a month to just $3-4k a month. This means that for the same gross income that you earn and the same number of days per wk that you work, you now have an extra $3-4k every month to do whatever you want….traveling, investing in real estate, setting up your own office or continue to pay down the remaining half of your student loan debt.

My wife and I make much less now because she only works 1.5 days/wk and I only work 4.5 days a week. And our net income is still higher now than when we both worked 6 days a week. That’s because we have zero debt to pay back…..just annual property tax, rental property taxes, and small utility bills.

I can’t complain because working as an ortho is 100x easier than working as a general dentist. Working as a general dentist is easier than as a medical doctor……9-5, shorter work hours per day, don’t have to be on call, no weekend work hours if you choose not work on the weekends. Because doctors have to save lives, they have to work all the time….and have to treat patients even if the patients can’t pay them.

Even when we owed $2-3 millions (home loans, practice loans, investment property loans, etc), we could still afford to travel everywhere and stay at nice hotels. My office manager, who is her mid 50s, doesn’t know what it is like to have a vacation in Hawaii. I pay her $40k/year and she is living paycheck to paycheck.

This is a loaded post:

1. More debt a borrower pays off doesn’t increase their actual net income. It only increases their “disposable” income. Increasing your gross income increases your net income.

2. You and your wife are in the 3rd phase of Ortho income. You work less, you have less debt, so your peak income years are behind you. This is good! You earned it. But you are forgetting one thing... your student loans were minuscule compared to 600-800k for new ortho guy entering the profession today. Life in general is more expensive now; home ownership is expensive, cars are expensive, gas is expensive, food is more expensive, etc. The bar is much higher for younger and future docs.

3. You can afford to do more things with 2-3M in debt because you had more disposable income in 2000-2020 period. You started the race from 70m on 100m race. Big difference!

4. You pay your office manager in California of all places... 40k/yr! For 26 pay periods, she’s making 1,500 every 2 weeks? She’s making 19-20 an hour? You are very lucky my friend. A lot of retail jobs are paying more with better benefits these days. My assistants make more than that and I live in a very affordable city and state with way less taxes than California. If you post a job ad for office manager for 40k/yr, you won’t get any response in this job market.

 

[charlestweed]

Again.
You are more the exception than the rule. Right? You've mentioned it many times that most of your ortho colleagues are not willing to work and practice ortho like you. Some will. Some will work 6 days a week and bust their a** and do fine. Many won't and will complain. You also have a high income spouse adding to the net income you bring home. Not to mention you've made some nice investment choices. You are an exception. Maybe an outlier in terms of how hard you work.

Now. I agree with @Cold Front posts. I can tell you that I did not go into dentistry/ortho to work 6 days a week. No way. Nada. I went into ortho for the easier lifestyle (4 day work weeks) and to make bank. I didn't start getting paid until I was around age 28. Trust me. Delayed gratification was getting exhausting. It was time to have some fun and spend some money. Luckily .... my debt was less than 100K for EVERYTHING. Scholarships. Ortho stipend residency. Etc. etc. That was possible back when I went to school.

Now the present. 800K and above to become an orthodontist? Holy crap. Everyone knows that the economics of practicing ortho now is not as good as it once was. You're working long hours (or were). Using low fees and low overhead to appeal to a certain demographic. And you are very successful. Can every indebted young ortho do what you have done? Frankly. They may not have a choice.

Happy Easter everyone.

Right after graduation, I got married. At 29 with no kids, my wife and I chose to work 6 days/wk not because we had to but because we wanted to buy nice things for ourselves….because we wanted to become rich fast. Yes, my wife worked but our combined income was still only in the low 300s. Now a new grad ortho can make the same $300k by himself if he works 5-6 days/wk like what my wife and I did when we first graduated. We had a combined student loan debt of $450k. Even when we bought a house 3 months later and increased the total debt close to $1milion, we were still very OK. A new grad who is able bring home such income should have no problem paying back $800-1million debt. He may not be able to get a house right away like my wife and I did but he should be able to get one in 4-5 years when he cuts his/her student loan in half….or when his own office becomes more established.

Nobody put a gun in my head and forced me to work 6 days/wk. Everybody has a choice. If you want to become rich fast, you work hard. If you want to become financially independent fast and retire early, you work hard. You work less, if you just want to get by. You work less, if you are ok with letting the banks to control your life like a slave. If you don't want to work, you don't make money. It’s that simple.

Happy Easter!

 

[deleted903013]

Should an 18 year old be allowed to fight in a war and put his or her actual life in danger?

I'm not having this debate again lol

 

[charlestweed]

This is a loaded post:

1. More debt a borrower pays off doesn’t increase their actual net income. It only increases their “disposable” income. Increasing your gross income increases your net income.

2. You and your wife are in the 3rd phase of Ortho income. You work less, you have less debt, so your peak income years are behind you. This is good! You earned it. But you are forgetting one thing... your student loans were minuscule compared to 600-800k for new ortho guy entering the profession today. Life in general is more expensive now; home ownership is expensive, cars are expensive, gas is expensive, food is more expensive, etc. The bar is much higher for younger and future docs.

3. You can afford to do more things with 2-3M in debt because you had more disposable income in 2000-2020 period. You started the race from 70m on 100m race. Big difference!

I don’t deny the fact that things are more difficult for the new grads because of the inflation, high home prices and gas prices. They may not be able to have nice things immediately after graduation like me. But with a good income of $300k, a 800k-1million debt is very manageable. It will take them many years longer to get to where to I am now but they will eventually get there….maybe 5-6 years longer. The good thing is an ortho can work many years longer and doesn’t feel exhausted at the end of every working day. I am just an average orthodontist. There are plenty of orthodontists out there who work less and make more than me because they charge higher fees. The only thing that I beat them is I work a lot harder than them. They work smart. And I work hard because I am not business smart like them. Either way.....we are able to get to our final goal and that is to become financially independent. My credit score will probably be very bad in the next few years because I don't have any debt (except for the lease payment on a car) to pay back. LOL.

4. You pay your office manager in California of all places... 40k/yr! For 26 pay periods, she’s making 1,500 every 2 weeks? She’s making 19-20 an hour? You are very lucky my friend. A lot of retail jobs are paying more with better benefits these days. My assistants make more than that and I live in a very affordable city and state with way less taxes than California. If you post a job ad for office manager for 40k/yr, you won’t get any response in this job market.

Yeah, everything is saturated here in CA..... even the assistants and office managers have hard time finding good paying jobs. One of my P/T asssitants is studying to get his truck driving license and will leave me soon for a better paying job. That's OK. I have a long list of ortho assitants who wish to take his job when he leaves. That’s how I am able to keep the overhead below 40% and pass on the low cost treatments to my patients.

 

[GoDental101]

I'm not having this debate again lol

Should an 18 year old be allowed to fight in a war and put his or her actual life in danger?

Yes time for everyone to grow up

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Yes time for everyone to grow up

Again, no one is answering the most important question here, and that’s why haven’t NYU and USC sent me a platinum Rolex Daytona?! Maybe I overplayed my hand...

Okay, NYU and USC, here’s my final offer. I am going to walk into my local Omega authorized dealer. I will say to the person behind the counter, “As Big Time Hoosier always says...” and they will respond, “Go to the cheapest dental school you get into.” That’ll be our code phrase to confirm the contact. Then they will hand me the following watch and I will exit the building as mysteriously as I entered and henceforth be nothing but a memory on SDN.

Big Hoss

 

[Blueshirts]

How many more years of this thread before the opinions turn unanimous? The bar just keeps getting pushed. Like I've said the last few years, at one point 300k was too much, now only a few years later on this same board 500k-600k is being talked about the same way. If anything, spending the last 8 years here the one thing I learned is that the perspective of debt is relative. Each year it goes up and magically, as long as the debt load isn't in the same bracket as the 5 most expensive programs, and all of a sudden it's a tolerable number lol.