USMLE Step 1 -- Pass / Fail Starting Jan 2022

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Dr.Bruh said:
Even worse is I showed him the data across field which directly contradicts his core argument and he/she has not acknowledged it once.
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Exactly the self hate is very real on this site, I just don't get it, part of his argument was that "low tier IMG/FMG sweatshops wont give me an interview but they will interview a 240 FMG/IMG over me", omgg the bias is soo real ahahah, while he's getting interviews from places like Cedars Sinai, UC's, UT's, and other programs in the NE, what he prbly doesn't realize is that if he was an IMG/FMG he would have half the number of interviews and prbly be clamoring to match somewhere, he would have very little margin for error(failing boards etc) and it would be an overall more stressful match, some people just aren't satisfied with what they have, its the "grass is always greener" on the other side mentality. These people should try to actually go to a Caribbean school with a starting class size of 800, live on a island for 2 years trying to juggle medical school or go to another country where they have to jump through the immigration hoops just to try to match and oh while at it try to score 240+ to match Neurology(one of the least competitive specialties) and get USCE while at it too.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
Your last point can also go vice versa. So what's the big deal?
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You're right. But take a look at specialties like Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, etc., where FMGs are straight dunking on DOs at some of the top programs. You will see third world country medical schools matching into programs like MEEI/Harvard and Wilmer/Hopkins, but you'll never see these programs ever once talk to a DO. My point isn't to start a war over the minutiae of this topic, but rather just say to the die-hard DO degree defenders that there is no such thing as "DOs always have it better". In some competitive specialties and at some great programs, DO have it worse, and that's a fact.

But overall, DO/FMG/IMG are all scraping the bottom of the barrel. Period.

Also... @Cranjis McBasketball is your name from Impractical Jokers?
 
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sab3156 said:
This is not true for the better programs in fields like Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, and some others. You will see third world country medical schools matching into programs like MEEI/Harvard and Wilmer/Hopkins, but you'll never see these programs ever once talk to a DO. My point isn't to start a war over the minutiae of this topic, but rather just say to the die-hard DO degree defenders that there is no such thing as "DOs always have it better". In some specialties, DO have it worse, and that's a fact.

Also... @Cranjis McBasketball is your name from Impractical Jokers?
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I feel its program dependent, there are other top programs like UNC, USC, Ohio State, Case Western, that have taken DO's and no IMG's. Your using TWO programs to make your entire case. its not the whole picture.. also real classy and mature of you to tell DO's who matched optho anywhere but especially at great programs such as LLU, UNC, MCW or even a former AOA program etc that they are they are scraping the "bottom of the barrel" dude get over yourself..
 
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Epilepsy365 said:
I didn’t say that there’s more bias against DOs relative to IMGs. If there’s a difference, it’s marginal. From my perspective on the interview trail, PDs equate DOs with the leftover crumbs of FMGs and IMGs.
I interviewed at about 10 academic institutions and 6-8 of those places have IMGs or FMGs at my pre-interview dinners.
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Epilepsy365 said:
An example of a clearly ACGME Neurology favoring IMG/FMG is OU

They hate DOs so much that they list their DO PGY1 as a MD. I have met people on the interview trail from OU and the PD over there clearly favors IMG/FMGs.

I could list more if I want to but I honestly dgaf
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Have you considered that this is maybe because neurology has one of the lowest fill rate of USMDs? 284 of 617 spots were filled by a USMD. Sure if you pick the top 5 neuro programs in the country there’ll be no DOs and a few FMGs. I see no evidence that PDs equate DO students to IMG/FMG.

If we want to use random anecdotes instead of PD surveys or match data I’ve also gone on interviews where the other students at the pre interview dinner were all USMDs.

Your posts read of extreme self loathing. You make very generalized statements with nothing to back them up then get defensive with the whole “I told you so don’t come crying later.” And “you’ll regret not listening to me” vibes. You also ignore any actual match data both the outcomes and PD surveys.
 
sab3156 said:
You're right. But take a look at specialties like Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, etc., where FMGs are straight dunking on DOs at some of the top programs. You will see third world country medical schools matching into programs like MEEI/Harvard and Wilmer/Hopkins, but you'll never see these programs ever once talk to a DO. My point isn't to start a war over the minutiae of this topic, but rather just say to the die-hard DO degree defenders that there is no such thing as "DOs always have it better". In some competitive specialties and at some great programs, DO have it worse, and that's a fact.

But overall, DO/FMG/IMG are all scraping the bottom of the barrel. Period.

Also... @Cranjis McBasketball is your name from Impractical Jokers?
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This false dichotomy you present over and over has been address but you still insist on using it. Comparing hundred of qualified IMG with years of practice and literally a laundry list of publications in the fields to literally the 9-12 fresh DO grads who apply neurosurgery each year is silly. And don't act like this is the case for most IMGs you refers. Their apps are god status compared to most other applicants, its not because they are IMGs. A DO is not gunna have that opportunity to build an app like that.
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
I feel its program dependent, there are other top programs like UNC, USC, Ohio State, Case Western, that have taken DO's and no IMG's. Your using TWO programs to make your entire case. its not the whole picture
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I usually don't reply to your posts due to their spammy nature, but...

Unfortunately, you have zero experience in Ophthalmology, so you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. When you say "I feel" in a subject you don't know anything about, I can't take it seriously. I gave two extremely competitive programs as examples. I can give many more across all tiers (top, middle, low), but it's not going to benefit the discussion.


I'm giving you information from some of the most prominent academics in the field. There are many, many Ophthalmology programs that would never ever touch a DO but will take an FMG, especially the most prestigious programs. That's a fact. Try to accept it. The match data shows that DOs have a terrible time in Ophthalmology. I know for a fact that a lot of the DO apps were strong - if they were MDs, they would likely have matched. I know it's extremely difficult for you to admit that you don't know what you're talking about (like when you boldly claimed that the DO match rate in Ophthalmology is bad because they drop out of the ACGME match once they match AOA, not even realizing that what you're saying is impossible because the ACGME Ophthalmology match happens much earlier), but just make an attempt to wrap your head around what I'm saying.

In conclusion, DO/FMG/IMG are all garbage when it comes to matching into residency. Let's move on to more interesting things.

Dr.Bruh said:
This false dichotomy you present over and over has been address but you still insist on using it. Comparing hundred of qualified IMG with years of practice and literally a laundry list of publications in the fields to literally the 9-12 fresh DO grads who apply neurosurgery each year is silly. And don't act like this is the case for most IMGs you refers. Their apps are god status compared to most other applicants, its not because they are IMGs. A DO is not gunna have that opportunity to build an app like that.
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If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to comment. I literally work with (or have worked with in the past) more than 5 people who graduated from foreign schools and did residency at some of the most prestigious Ophthalmology programs in the U.S. - none of them had residency experience prior to matching. Their applications were just as research-heavy as the US MDs they matched with into those programs, and that's something anyone can do if they really want to (research fellowships, etc.). The programs that they did residency at simply don't ever interview DOs. There is nothing to it other than the fact that the DO degree is trash to them and makes them look less competitive.



I can't understand why people get so heated whenever someone speaks negatively about DO residency prospects.
 
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sab3156 said:
I usually don't reply to your posts due to their spammy nature, but...

Unfortunately, you have zero experience in Ophthalmology, so you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. When you say "I feel" in a subject you don't know anything about, I can't take it seriously. I gave two extremely competitive programs as examples. I can give many more across all tiers (top, middle, low), but it's not going to benefit the discussion.


I'm giving you information from some of the most prominent academics in the field. There are many, many Ophthalmology programs that would never ever touch a DO but will take an FMG, especially the most prestigiaous programs.That's a fact. Try to accept it. The match data shows that DOs have a terrible time in Ophthalmology. I know for a fact that a lot of the DO apps were strong - if they were MDs, they would likely have matched. I know it's extremely difficult for you to admit that you don't know what you're talking about (like when you boldly claimed that the DO match rate in Ophthalmology is bad because they drop out of the ACGME match once they match AOA, not even realizing that what you're saying is impossible because the ACGME Ophthalmology match happens much earlier), but just make an attempt to wrap your head around what I'm saying.

In conclusion, DO/FMG/IMG are all garbage when it comes to matching into residency. Let's move on to more interesting things.



If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to comment. I literally work with more than 5 people who graduated from foreign schools and did residency at some of the most prestigious Ophthalmology programs in the U.S. - none of them had residency experience prior to matching. The programs that they did residency at simply don't ever interview DOs. There is nothing to it other than the fact that the DO degree is trash to them and makes them look less competitive.
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Match data shows something completely different, explain to me how some 119 IMG's registered i.e. applied to optho residency but more than half of them didn't rank a single program(that means they didn't get a single interview)? Why did that happen Sab if the top Optho programs are clamoring for FMG's? You have tunnel vision, the program you are at is an exception not a rule, its very very rare for a FMG to just wake up one day get a good STEP score and match at a top optho program, yes some old time PD's and programs still think that the DO degree is trash but there ARE definetly very good and top progrms such as USC(I know its a top 10 program) that have ranked and matched DO's and don't think anything about the MD vs DO thing and are looking for the best fit with the applicant. Also I am willing to bet that MOST FMG's that match competitive residencies in the US have a ton of research and have been practicing physicians in their home country, despite this half of them don't even get a single interview.
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Match data shows something completely different, explain to me how some 119 IMG's registered i.e. applied to optho residency but more than half of them didn't rank a single program(that means they didn't get a single interview)? Why did that happen Sab if the top Optho programs are clamoring for FMG's? You have tunnel vision, the program you are at is an exception not a rule, its very very rare for a FMG to just wake up one day get a good STEP score and match at a top optho program, yes some old time PD's and programs still think that the DO degree is trash but there ARE definetly very good and top progrms such as USC(I know its a top 10 program) that have ranked and matched DO's and don't think anything about the MD vs DO thing and are looking for the best fit with the applicant. Also I am willing to bet that MOST FMG's that match competitive residencies in the US have a ton of research and have been practicing physicians in their home country, despite this half of them don't even get a single interview.
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OK man, whatever makes you feel better about yourself...

Anyway...

@Cranjis McBasketball , we should start an Impractical Jokers thread.
 
sab3156 said:
OK man, whatever makes you feel better about yourself... Keep spamming.

Anyway...

@Cranjis McBasketball , we should start an Impractical Jokers thread.
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Your using 5 anecdotal experiences from 1 program and trying to put down DO's who matched at optho programs.. saying that they are "bottom of the barrel" you also said that former AOA programs don't count because they are "less prestigious"... but guess what there are USMD optho applicants that didn't match that would gladly take a spot at a former AOA program. You also didn't answer my question about how out of 120 FMG registered(applied) to optho but only 61 ranked? Stop the self hate man...
 
@Cranjis McBasketball please come rescue this thread. I'm calling for you to help me deliver some Impractical Jokers material onto SDN. I can't handle the spam bots anymore.
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Really how many are going to do the 60 hour omm course? It’s not feasible coming out of the carribean, just stop man, I can’t believe that you think that your options for residency in any world would be better as a Caribbean IMG or FMG.. just unbelievable...
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I understand that you want to be optimistic, and certainly don’t want to admit fault, but you were wrong. You claimed that all the ok state wouldn’t allow IMGs in for rotation and residency, were then shown that you were 100% wrong and then continued to post as if you were right. Your feelings about the situation are not a source.

I don’t know what to tell you. Just cause you want something to be true doesn’t mean it is. The 60 hours is required for residency not rotation FYI.

BTW if your claim had been that OK state is very biased toward DOs, I would have agreed. But you have been making up things to support an argument that is questionable at best (I.e. DOs have plenty of options due to former AOA slots). I would also point out that there were only about 3k slots in the AOA compared to 9k incoming DOs. There was never enough, even if they took only DOs. Either way, I am disengaging from this particular argument, as it is clear you cannot be persuaded by facts and reasoning at this time.
 
sab3156 said:
I usually don't reply to your posts due to their spammy nature, but...

Unfortunately, you have zero experience in Ophthalmology, so you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. When you say "I feel" in a subject you don't know anything about, I can't take it seriously. I gave two extremely competitive programs as examples. I can give many more across all tiers (top, middle, low), but it's not going to benefit the discussion.


I'm giving you information from some of the most prominent academics in the field. There are many, many Ophthalmology programs that would never ever touch a DO but will take an FMG, especially the most prestigiaous programs.That's a fact. Try to accept it. The match data shows that DOs have a terrible time in Ophthalmology. I know for a fact that a lot of the DO apps were strong - if they were MDs, they would likely have matched. I know it's extremely difficult for you to admit that you don't know what you're talking about (like when you boldly claimed that the DO match rate in Ophthalmology is bad because they drop out of the ACGME match once they match AOA, not even realizing that what you're saying is impossible because the ACGME Ophthalmology match happens much earlier), but just make an attempt to wrap your head around what I'm saying.

In conclusion, DO/FMG/IMG are all garbage when it comes to matching into residency. Let's move on to more interesting things.



If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to comment. I literally work with (or have worked with in the past) more than 5 people who graduated from foreign schools and did residency at some of the most prestigious Ophthalmology programs in the U.S. - none of them had residency experience prior to matching. Their applications were just as research-heavy as the US MDs they matched with into those programs, and that's something anyone can do if they really want to (research fellowships, etc.). The programs that they did residency at simply don't ever interview DOs. There is nothing to it other than the fact that the DO degree is trash to them and makes them look less competitive.



I can't understand why people get so heated whenever someone speaks negatively about DO residency prospects.
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Yes this is what I was referring to with Henry Ford
 
BorntobeDO? said:
I understand that you want to be optimistic, and certainly don’t want to admit fault, but you were wrong. You claimed that all the ok state wouldn’t allow IMGs in for rotation and residency, were then shown that you were 100% wrong and then continued to post as if you were right. Your feelings about the situation are not a source.

I don’t know what to tell you. Just cause you want something to be true doesn’t mean it is. The 60 hours is required for residency not rotation FYI.

BTW if your claim had been that OK state is very biased toward DOs, I would have agreed. But you have been making up things to support an argument that is questionable at best (I.e. DOs have plenty of options due to former AOA slots). I would also point out that there were only about 3k slots in the AOA compared to 9k incoming DOs. There was never enough, even if they took only DOs. Either way, I am disengaging from this particular argument, as it is clear you cannot be persuaded by facts and reasoning at this time.
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I just report those posts now. Feel free to do the same. It's like speaking to a spam bot that just instantly blasts back at you with a random paragraph of nonsense - how can you compete with that? It just tires you out.


BorntobeDO? said:
There’s a lesson here for OMS0’s: some people love to talk up certain DO admin/faculty talking points which are ‘highly optimistic’ at best and downright false often. Be careful who you listen too.
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^^ This should be made into a pop-up that comes up every time you enter the DO forum, and makes you check "I understand" in order to access this forum.
 
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sab3156 said:
I just report those posts now. Feel free to do the same. It's like speaking to a spam bot that just instantly blasts back at you with a random paragraph of nonsense - how can you compete with that? It just tires you out.




^^ This should be made into a pop-up that comes up every time you enter the DO forum, and makes you check "I understand" in order to access this forum.
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Sdn is great as there's an ignore function
 
Would this hurt a DOs chances of matching anesthesia?
 
TikiTorches said:
I was specifically referring to specialties. The endocrinology specialty is what I started with.
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If you can click the link, idk if it’s opening up for you but you can see that there are 2 first year DO endocrinology fellows there so I don’t think they have anything against the DO initials... also I don’t know what you mean by “specialties “ but there are DO’s in multiple “specialties “ at Henry ford..
 
sab3156 said:
You're right. But take a look at specialties like Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, etc., where FMGs are straight dunking on DOs at some of the top programs. You will see third world country medical schools matching into programs like MEEI/Harvard and Wilmer/Hopkins, but you'll never see these programs ever once talk to a DO. My point isn't to start a war over the minutiae of this topic, but rather just say to the die-hard DO degree defenders that there is no such thing as "DOs always have it better". In some competitive specialties and at some great programs, DO have it worse, and that's a fact.

But overall, DO/FMG/IMG are all scraping the bottom of the barrel. Period.

Also... @Cranjis McBasketball is your name from Impractical Jokers?
Click to expand...

I interviewed at multiple programs at (ranked higher on doximity if it matters) the caliber of MEEI/Harvard for my similarly (more?) competitive specialty I am applying to so.... consider your opinion just that. An opinion.

Also, one of my peers has double digit MD dermatology interviews at university programs and an Ivy.

Most DO schools can't produce applicants like this without a research year or 2 (which is what those IMGs need as well) but the good ones can and their students are benefitting from it.
 
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Dr.Bruh said:
Yeah but are they official Sab approved elite programs?? Checkmate.
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He literally quotes TWO programs Wilmer/MEEI lol, and I am like bruh what about USC another top 10 program that does take DO's in ophthalmology..
 
DNC127 said:
I interviewed at multiple programs at (ranked higher on doximity if it matters) the caliber of MEEI/Harvard for my similarly (more?) competitive specialty I am applying to so.... consider your opinion just that. An opinion.

Also, one of my peers has double digit MD dermatology interviews at university programs and an Ivy.

Most DO schools can't produce applicants like this without a research year or 2 (which is what those IMGs need as well) but the good ones can and their students are benefitting from it.
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Well, to be completely honest Sab said these programs wouldn't touch a DO app with a 1000 foot pole. Did you check the length of the poles that touched your app? They might have been over 1000 foot long. People need to filter competitive programs by the length of their poles and the ability of those poles to reach their apps. Otherwise, you might end up soaping into middle if nowhere FM no matter how competitive you are because they have the shortest poles (or longest which ever way you look at it lol).
 
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Lol damn the way sab was calling the DO degree trash and that they fight with the crud at the bottom of the barrel, I wonder if I should just hang it up. That really sounds like hell. Maybe if I leave the country and become a FMG, I’ll be able to match at Harvard 🤔
 
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Iux said:
Lol damn the way sab was calling the DO degree trash and that they fight with the crud at the bottom of the barrel, I wonder if I should just hang it up. That really sounds like hell. Maybe if I leave the country and become a FMG, I’ll be able to match at Harvard 🤔
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You will need to go to Pakistan and you will basically be guaranteed a spot at MEEI/Wilmer since those are the only real elite optho programs, all others are bottom barrel.. As a side note.. TOM BRADY is the absolute GOAT!!
 
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BorntobeDO? said:
Just go ahead and do it. I feel it coming.
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I don't think anything has been said that is truly "animosity" other than @sab3156 calling the DO degree and even IMG's and FMG's "trash" cause they don't match at the top optho programs which he mentions who won't touch them with a 1000 foot pole...
I really low-key want to see an "official" @sab3156 approved list of "top Ophthalmology programs" so that it can become the gold standard for evaluating programs, Wilmer and MEEI are obviously at the top but I am really curious to see the rest of the list!!

Bias or no bias theres not one but ironically there are TWO DO faculty at Wilmer.....
Screen Shot 2020-02-18 at 8.06.31 PM.png


Screen Shot 2020-02-18 at 8.03.58 PM.png
 
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FutureDoctor5000 said:
I don't think anything has been said that is truly "animosity" other than @sab3156 calling the DO degree and even IMG's and FMG's "trash" cause they don't match at the top optho programs which he mentions who won't touch them with a 1000 foot pole...
I really low-key want to see an "official" @sab3156 approved list of "top Ophthalmology programs" so that it can become the gold standard for evaluating programs, Wilmer and MEEI are obviously at the top but I am really curious to see the rest of the list!!

Bias or no bias theres not one but TWO DO faculty at Wilmer.....
View attachment 296013

View attachment 296012
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Don't worry, I still love you all and support you. Even tho you're dunces.
 
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So, to return to the topic at hand. Do you guys think Step 1 P/F would increase DO match rate? I think we can all agree that it’ll likely hurt DOs going for competitive specialties/residencies but for the bulk of DOs I imagine it’d shift more IM/FM spots over from the IMG pool?

To be fair I have no idea the number of unmatched DOs in IMG heavy specialties though so this could be completely out of touch.
 
Alkain said:
So, to return to the topic at hand. Do you guys think Step 1 P/F would increase DO match rate? I think we can all agree that it’ll likely hurt DOs going for competitive specialties/residencies but for the bulk of DOs I imagine it’d shift more IM/FM spots over from the IMG pool?
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I think it will shift more spots over, but I don't think it will help our match rate. We are already at 98% placement. Its hard to do better, especially when the schools are expanding like wild bunnies. IMGs are in much bigger trouble than us, and FMG's as well. This wasn't good for us, but its worse for them.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
I think it will shift more spots over, but I don't think it will help our match rate. We are already at 98% placement. Its hard to do better, especially when the schools are expanding like wild bunnies. IMGs are in much bigger trouble than us, and FMG's as well. This wasn't good for us, but its worse for them.
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Well I know it likely won’t help placement since that’s pretty high already. But the match rate was like 84% (?). Which definitely has some room for improvement.
 
Alkain said:
Well I know it likely won’t help placement since that’s pretty high already. But the match rate was like 84% (?). Which definitely has some room for improvement.
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Wait and see what 2020's match rate is now that all the programs are in. I believe Hallowmann calculated a corrected match rate that included AOA at something like 86-88%. No matter, whatever the match rate is this year is the high point. All the programs are in, and the number of DOs that are participating in the match will only go up from here (likely lowering the rate).
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
If you can click the link, idk if it’s opening up for you but you can see that there are 2 first year DO endocrinology fellows there so I don’t think they have anything against the DO initials... also I don’t know what you mean by “specialties “ but there are DO’s in multiple “specialties “ at Henry ford..
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Thanks this seems new. Friend applied a few years ago.
 
CoomassieBlue57 said:
Personal statement
Volunteering
Extra curricular activities
Letters of recommendation
Dean's letter
Awards
Research
Presentations
Patient experience
Audition rotations/Sub I's

Out of 15+ interviews, I was asked one time about my board scores. The list above is what I was asked about. I tailored my application specifically to the field I applied to, and received numerous positive comments about my application package.
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Volunteering and ECs? Ive always thought that stuff was bottom importance and that it didnt hold nearly the same importance it did for applying to med school
 
Deecee2DO said:
Volunteering and ECs? Ive always thought that stuff was bottom importance and that it didnt hold nearly the same importance it did for applying to med school
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I have close to 0 ECs and volunteering. I guess I'm ****ed lol.
 
Deecee2DO said:
Volunteering and ECs? Ive always thought that stuff was bottom importance and that it didnt hold nearly the same importance it did for applying to med school
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On the majority of my interviews they asked about my ECs and volunteer activities. They won’t get you an interview, but it give them something to ask about and see you’re a normal person.
 
For those of us who are currently MS1s at schools that take step after core clerkships (after Jan 2022), do we know if we will be the last class that gets a score?
 
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