USMLE Step 1 -- Pass / Fail Starting Jan 2022

[Dr.Bruh]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Still discrimination. These liberal bastions are discriminating.

Troll identified

 

[PikminOC]

Troll identified

Just calling out these places that lecture us. But don't follow

 

[deleted898021]

of the first 10 places I googled for EM away rotations most do not accept IMGs: Rush, UMKC, New York Medical College, Loyola (charges imgs 1500 bucks for an away), UT Nashville (multiple specialties), University of Missouri, medical college of Georgia. All accept DOs and currently have DOs as residents in these programs. The idea that IMGs have unlimited access to all seats is seriously wrong. You have dramatically less.
View attachment 295891View attachment 295892View attachment 295893View attachment 295894View attachment 295895View attachment 295896View attachment 295897

No point in arguing with delusioned and self loathing DO’s.. you also didn’t mention the countless former AOA prorgams that made it to ACGME accreditation that will prbly also not let IMG’s do aways..

 

[Epilepsy365]

of the first 10 places I googled for EM away rotations most do not accept IMGs: Rush, UMKC, New York Medical College, Loyola (charges imgs 1500 bucks for an away), UT Nashville (multiple specialties), University of Missouri, medical college of Georgia. All accept DOs and currently have DOs as residents in these programs. The idea that IMGs have unlimited access to all seats is seriously wrong. You have dramatically less.
View attachment 295891View attachment 295892View attachment 295893View attachment 295894View attachment 295895View attachment 295896View attachment 295897

good to know that EM leadership knows the true hands that feed them the Medicaid fund.

Cant say the same for Neurology. My exp from there is vastly different.

 

[Epilepsy365]

No point in arguing with delusioned and self loathing DO’s.. you also didn’t mention the countless former AOA prorgams that made it to ACGME accreditation that will prbly also not let IMG’s do aways..

Wrong.

My home AOA IM program is filling half of its class this yr with FMGs/IMGs.

And these people are not 240+ studs for sure.

 

[deleted898021]

Wrong.

My home AOA IM program is filling half of its class this yr with FMGs/IMGs.

And these people are not 240+ studs for sure.

Well it must be an extremely undesirable program I can say that for sure if thats the case... Don't let your COMLEX Level 2 PE failure cloud your perspective and give people wrong information about Caribbean vs DO, in NO world is there more bias against DO's then IMG... not even close.

 

[deleted898021]

good to know that EM leadership knows the true hands that feed them the Medicaid fund.

Cant say the same for Neurology. My exp from there is vastly different.

LOL Neuro is arguably one of the least competitive specialties, comparatively very few USMD and DO students are going for Neuro, its one of the most IMG friendly specialties, its similar to Path, even then you will see DO's matching at better Neuro programs then IMG;s.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Well it must be an extremely undesirable program I can say that for sure if thats the case... Don't let your COMLEX Level 2 PE failure cloud your perspective and give people wrong information about Caribbean vs DO, in NO world is there more bias against DO's then IMG... not even close.

I didn’t say that there’s more bias against DOs relative to IMGs. If there’s a difference, it’s marginal. From my perspective on the interview trail, PDs equate DOs with the leftover crumbs of FMGs and IMGs.

I interviewed at about 10 academic institutions and 6-8 of those places have IMGs or FMGs at my pre-interview dinners.

 

[deleted898021]

I didn’t say that there’s more bias against DOs relative to IMGs. If there’s a difference, it’s marginal. From my perspective on the interview trail, PDs equate DOs with the leftover crumbs of FMGs and IMGs.

I interviewed at about 10 academic institutions and 6-8 of those places have IMGs or FMGs at my pre-interview dinners.

This is not even remotely true for most places, certainly not true at the former AOA programs where DO's are preferred even over USMD's, your experiences are different due to a failed board exam, and don't let that cloud your perspective, the programs where you did see IMG's were most prbly the lower tier and community programs. You got 10 interviews and will likely still match despite a failed board, the DO degree and the LACK of PD bias against DO vs. IMG actually might have saved your career, if you were an IMG you would likely have very few interviews, I am also willing to bet that the IMG's you did see on the interview trail had no failed boards or any blemishes on their app. Like I said stop the self loathing..

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This is not even remotely true for most places, certainly not true at the former AOA programs where DO's are preferred even over USMD's, your experiences are different due to a failed board exam, and don't let that cloud your perspective, the programs where you did see IMG's were most prbly the lower tier and community programs. You got 10 interviews and will likely still match despite a failed board, the DO degree and the LACK of PD bias against DO vs. IMG actually might have saved your career, if you were an IMG you would likely have very few interviews, I am also willing to bet that the IMG's you did see on the interview trail had no failed boards or any blemishes on their app. Like I said stop the self loathing..

And exactly what experience do you have with applying to residency or even with boards? You are gonna disagree with epilepsy who is actually on the trail and trying to match when you haven’t even taken level 1.

No point in arguing with delusioned and self loathing DO’s.. you also didn’t mention the countless former AOA prorgams that made it to ACGME accreditation that will prbly also not let IMG’s do aways..

You should make a list. You seem very confident there is ‘countless’ numbers of them, surely you have 40 programs already looked up with that kind of statement? Probably should make it more like 100 since that is what most DOs apply to now. You can get back to me I will wait.

 

[deleted898021]

And exactly what experience do you have with applying to residency or even with boards? You are gonna disagree with epilepsy who is actually on the trail and trying to match when you haven’t even taken level 1.

You should make a list. You seem very confident there is ‘countless’ numbers of them, surely you have 40 programs already looked up with that kind of statement? Probably should make it more like 100 since that is what most DOs apply to now. You can get back to me I will wait.

This has nothing do with me being as M2 or not taken boards, there are others on this thread how have already refuted epilepsy's claim that "DO's only have a marginal advantage over IMG's and they are basically bread crumbs...etc" I was using the former AOA programs as an example to show that there are many programs where DO's are preferred(due to obvious reasons, wont argue this) Now you can argue about the "quality or prestige" of some of these programs but thats not the point. Actually heres the site that you so desperately need
:Opportunities - AOA-Approved Internships and Residencies and https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...e-gme-transitioned-programs-opportunities.pdf, you can see that the total number of programs is far greater than "100", and yes epilepsy is applying right now, I am glad you brought that up again, because it helps my case, he failed his PE and still probably has a higher number of interviews(#10) and better quality of interviews then his counterparts from the Carribean , is he getting interviews from Harvard?, no but his overall chances of actually becoming a physician is much much higher right now because he's a DO and not an IMG, thats my whole point and btw lets not act like he would be getting interviews in his field from top tier University programs with failed boards even if he was a USMD. If your going to self loath soo much on DO's then maybe you and ellipsey should have gone down to Caribbean and seen how that played out, bottom line is DO is obviously a second choice to USMD and theres no denying that but lets not act like its still not a very viable route to matching in 90%+ specialties(arguably all specialties), not everyone cares about the prestige of their match and I have spoken to many alumni at my school who actually chose a DO programs over an MD program, you also brought up the Carey 98% pass rate, Idk why you did as that has nothing to do with this thread but just so you know, that information was given to me by our dean, and I confirmed that info with our current 3rd year class, sure it may not be updated on the website but unless your implying that the you know more about it than the Dean of a medical school or that the dean is lying point blank to our entire class then idk what to say man..

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Wrong.

My home AOA IM program is filling half of its class this yr with FMGs/IMGs.

And these people are not 240+ studs for sure.

Literally hundreds of AOA IM spots went unfilled every year pre merger bc even DOs didn’t want them and could match fine in IM in the ACGME or get much better AOA spots. IMGs are not taking DO spots. They are filling spots that nobody, not even DOs wanted.

 

[deleted898021]

Literally hundred of AOA IM spots went infilled every year pre merger bc even DOs didn’t want them and could match fine in IM in the ACGME or get much better AOA spots. IMGs are taking DO spots. They are filling spots that nobody, not even DOs wanted.

Say it louder for the people in the back!!!

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This has nothing do with me being as M2 or not taken boards, there are others on this thread how have already refuted epilepsy's claim that "DO's only have a marginal advantage over IMG's and they are basically bread crumbs...etc" I was using the former AOA programs as an example to show that there are many programs where DO's are preferred(due to obvious reasons, wont argue this) Now you can argue about the "quality or prestige" of some of these programs but thats not the point. Actually heres the site that you so desperately need
:Opportunities - AOA-Approved Internships and Residencies and https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...e-gme-transitioned-programs-opportunities.pdf ,if you can read, you can see that the total number of programs is far greater than "100", and yes epilepsy is applying right now, I am glad you brought that up again, because it helps my case, he failed his PE and still probably has a higher number of interviews(#10) and better quality of interviews then his counterparts from the Carribean , is he getting interviews from Harvard?, no but his overall chances of actually becoming a physician is much much higher right now because he's a DO and not an IMG, thats my whole point and btw lets not act like he would be getting interviews in his field from top tier University programs with failed boards even if he was a USMD. If your going to self loath soo much on DO's then maybe you and ellipsey should have gone down to Caribbean and seen how that played out, bottom line is DO is obviously a second choice to USMD and theres no denying that but lets not act like its still not a very viable route to matching in 90%+ specialties(arguably all specialties), not everyone cares about the prestige of their match and I have spoken to many alumni at my school who actually chose a DO programs over an MD program, you also brought up the Carey 98% pass rate, Idk why you did as that has nothing to do with this thread but just so you know, that information was given to me by our dean, and I confirmed that info with our current 3rd year class, sure it may not be updated on the website but unless your implying that the you know more about it than the Dean of a medical school or that the dean is lying then idk what to say man..

And which of those hundred will not let IMGs rotate like you claimed. Giving me a list of former AOA isn’t what you said or what I asked. Back up your talk: give us a list of 100 former AOA that refuse to let IMGs in to rotate.

 

[Neopolymath]

Literally hundred of AOA IM spots went infilled every year pre merger bc even DOs didn’t want them and could match fine in IM in the ACGME or get much better AOA spots. IMGs are taking DO spots. They are filling spots that nobody, not even DOs wanted.

Wait Future Doctor5000000 said people want those AOA spots when I said no one is trying to rank AOA programs unless for an extrinsic reason like family/location lol...

 

[Dr.Bruh]

And which of those hundred will not let IMGs rotate like you claimed. Giving me a list of former AOA isn’t what you said or what I asked. Back up your talk: give us a list of 100 former AOA that refuse to let IMGs in to rotate.

N=1 but the PDs at KCUs Ortho and Gen surg program don’t consider IMGs. They said it’s bc they it’s a ton extra paperwork since these programs only ever took USDOs before and doubt many AOA programs would want to go through all the extra hassle unless they had serious problems filling there spots.

 

[deleted898021]

Wait Future Doctor5000000 said people want those AOA spots when I said no one is trying to rank AOA programs unless for an extrinsic reason like family/location lol...

Your generalizing my statement, yes there are people who rank aoa spots over traditional md spots that doesn’t mean that all aoa spots are good or desirable or get filled, those two things are mutually exclusive, jeez people

 

[deleted898021]

N=1 but the PDs at KCUs Ortho and Gen surg program don’t consider IMGs. They said it’s bc they it’s a ton extra paperwork since these programs only ever took USDOs before and doubt many AOA programs would want to go through all the extra hassle unless they had serious problems filling there spots.

Ok state’s programs(across all specialties) don’t consider img either

 

[deleted898021]

And which of those hundred will not let IMGs rotate like you claimed. Giving me a list of former AOA isn’t what you said or what I asked. Back up your talk: give us a list of 100 former AOA that refuse to let IMGs in to rotate.

I am sure a lot because they prefer the DO students from the schools which sponsor them? the not so good programs sure, but no one wants them anyway. It’s laughable to think that you guys are comparing the clinical education of DO’s vs IMG’s, IMG’s literally have to sometimes travel from coast to coast on a moments notice for their 3rd year CORE clerkships, that is horrendous and absolutely nothing like USMD and DO rotations.

 

[dohopeful13]

This is a bit of a silly argument. There are going to be some PDs that prefer DOs. There will be some that prefer IMGs (NY region, for example). Neither are preferable to USMD. That's going to continue with or without boards. I remember pulling the numbers a while back, and I believe I saw that DOs and IMGs were interviewed at a similar percentage, with DOs having a 20 percent or so actual match advantage overall.

So while the "Even IMGs are preferred to DO" argument is wrong statically speaking, there are definitely going to be a fair amount of programs that prefer IMGs.

 

[deleted898021]

This is a bit of a silly argument. There are going to be some PDs that prefer DOs. There will be some that prefer IMGs (NY region, for example). Neither are preferable to USMD. That's going to continue with or without boards. I remember pulling the numbers a while back, and I believe I saw that DOs and IMGs were interviewed at a similar percentage, with DOs having a 20 percent or so actual match advantage overall.

So while the "Even IMGs are preferred to DO" argument is wrong statically speaking, there are definitely going to be a fair amount of programs that prefer IMGs.

But the quality of the programs that prefer IMG’s is questionable- i.e. the sweat shops. There are many programs that have DO’s and USMD’s but no IMG’s despite there being many many more IMG’s in the match then DO’s...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But the quality of the programs that prefer IMG’s is questionable- i.e. the sweat shops. There are many programs that have DO’s and USMD’s but no IMG’s despite there being many many more IMG’s in the match then DO’s...

And there are former AOA programs that made the merger that give absolutely terrible training.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

And there are former AOA programs that made the merger that give absolutely terrible training.

This is a dumb argument.

You are a huge reactionary on these forums dude. There are def AOA programs that were questionable but they are gone with the merger. Any that are left literally meet ACGME standard that all MD programs have to me. Saying they have terrible training after merger is saying you question acgme standard and would have to question training at many other MD programs too.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You are a huge reactionary on these forums dude. There are def AOA programs that were questionable but they are gone with the merger. Any that are left literally meet ACGME standard that all MD programs have to me. Saying they have terrible training after merger is saying you question acgme standard and would have to question training at many other MD programs too.

Lmao. No, not all questionable AOA programs are gone with the merger. Yes there are MD programs with questionable training as well. ACGME accreditation isn't some end all be all to prevent poor training.

The poster I quoted literally said that the programs that prefer IMG's are questionable. Well guess what, a lot of the programs that prefer only DO's are questionable. Sorry if that hurts your feels.

 

[Epilepsy365]

This has nothing do with me being as M2 or not taken boards, there are others on this thread how have already refuted epilepsy's claim that "DO's only have a marginal advantage over IMG's and they are basically bread crumbs...etc" I was using the former AOA programs as an example to show that there are many programs where DO's are preferred(due to obvious reasons, wont argue this) Now you can argue about the "quality or prestige" of some of these programs but thats not the point. Actually heres the site that you so desperately need
:Opportunities - AOA-Approved Internships and Residencies and https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...e-gme-transitioned-programs-opportunities.pdf ,if you can read, you can see that the total number of programs is far greater than "100", and yes epilepsy is applying right now, I am glad you brought that up again, because it helps my case, he failed his PE and still probably has a higher number of interviews(#10) and better quality of interviews then his counterparts from the Carribean , is he getting interviews from Harvard?, no but his overall chances of actually becoming a physician is much much higher right now because he's a DO and not an IMG, thats my whole point and btw lets not act like he would be getting interviews in his field from top tier University programs with failed boards even if he was a USMD. If your going to self loath soo much on DO's then maybe you and ellipsey should have gone down to Caribbean and seen how that played out, bottom line is DO is obviously a second choice to USMD and theres no denying that but lets not act like its still not a very viable route to matching in 90%+ specialties(arguably all specialties), not everyone cares about the prestige of their match and I have spoken to many alumni at my school who actually chose a DO programs over an MD program, you also brought up the Carey 98% pass rate, Idk why you did as that has nothing to do with this thread but just so you know, that information was given to me by our dean, and I confirmed that info with our current 3rd year class, sure it may not be updated on the website but unless your implying that the you know more about it than the Dean of a medical school or that the dean is lying point blank to our entire class then idk what to say man..

Good luck. You seem to have it all figured out.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Ok state’s programs(across all specialties) don’t consider img either

Sounds like you guys have come up with 19, the majority of which are FM, if every Oklahoma state program won’t allow IMGs plus KCU gen surg and ortho. Only 81 more to go. Btw I am pretty sure ok state will allow IMGs if they do ok states 60 hour OMM course.
edit:
There is no requirement for OMM for an audition rotation on their site Family Medicine Residency Application Process | OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine - Oklahoma State University

Your research isn’t holding up well.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sounds like you guys have come up with 19, the majority of which are FM, if every Oklahoma state program won’t allow IMGs plus KCU gen surg and ortho. Only 81 more to go. Btw I am pretty sure ok state will allow IMGs if they do ok states 60 hour OMM course.
edit:
There is no requirement for OMM for an audition rotation on their site Family Medicine Residency Application Process | OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine - Oklahoma State University

Your research isn’t holding up well.

It's under the non-DO applicants, but you are right in that you don't need it to rotate. You do need it to match.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It's under the non-DO applicants, but you are right in that you don't need it to rotate. You do need it to match.

Which was my whole point. He claimed that there were ‘countless’ former AOA that wouldn’t allow IMG to rotate. Not only will OK state allow rotations, they will even allow to match.

There’s a lesson here for OMS0’s: some people love to talk up certain DO admin/faculty talking points which are ‘highly optimistic’ at best and downright false often. Be careful who you listen too.

 

[Epilepsy365]

An example of a clearly ACGME Neurology favoring IMG/FMG is OU

Department of Neurology

They hate DOs so much that they list their DO PGY1 as a MD. I have met people on the interview trail from OU and the PD over there clearly favors IMG/FMGs.

I could list more.

 

[PikminOC]

An example of a clearly ACGME Neurology favoring IMG/FMG is OU

Department of Neurology

They hate DOs so much that they list their DO PGY1 as a MD. I have met people on the interview trail from OU and the PD over there clearly favors IMG/FMGs.

I could list more if I want to but I honestly dgaf

This is more in line with what I have seen. But with this change in USMLE, who knows?

 

[deleted898021]

An example of a clearly ACGME Neurology favoring IMG/FMG is OU

Department of Neurology

They hate DOs so much that they list their DO PGY1 as a MD. I have met people on the interview trail from OU and the PD over there clearly favors IMG/FMGs.

I could list more if I want to but I honestly dgaf

Haha how many DO’s are even applying to neuro..? Neuro is literally one of the few specialties where IMG’s actually match well cause it’s one of the least competitive specialties kind of like path, look at BCM or Utsw or UT Dell Neuro, the better prorgams in the region(unlike OU tulsa) doesn’t have a single carribean img, FMG yes but that’s not what we are talking about, we are talking about carribean img, since becoming an “FMG” is not even an option any of us really have...

 

[deleted898021]

Sounds like you guys have come up with 19, the majority of which are FM, if every Oklahoma state program won’t allow IMGs plus KCU gen surg and ortho. Only 81 more to go. Btw I am pretty sure ok state will allow IMGs if they do ok states 60 hour OMM course.
edit:
There is no requirement for OMM for an audition rotation on their site Family Medicine Residency Application Process | OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine - Oklahoma State University

Your research isn’t holding up well.

Really how many are going to do the 60 hour omm course? It’s not feasible coming out of the carribean, just stop man, I can’t believe that you think that your options for residency in any world would be better as a Caribbean IMG or FMG.. just unbelievable...

 

[Epilepsy365]

Haha how many DO’s are even applying to neuro..? Neuro is literally one of the few specialties where IMG’s actually match well cause it’s one of the least competitive specialties kind of like path, look at BCM or UT Dell Neuro, the better prorgams in the region(unlike OU tulsa) doesn’t have a single img..

That's not the point that I'm trying to make. You're trying to make the point that MD > DO > FMG/IMG. I'm trying to make the point that MD > DO = FMG = IMG, based on personal exp on the interview trail right now

I as a DO and some people as DOs have interviewed at places like Cedar Sinais, some of the UCs, some of the UTs, and some programs in Minnesota, and some places in the NE (def not an AOA program or some community program) while getting rejected at some of these IMG favored residency programs including this program and some mid tier NE programs. So, sit down and listen more instead. It's not bc of my assumed inferior stats or my COMLEX PE failure (which no residency programs have seen considering that all IIs were given before my results).

That's not right, and against the mission of the residency programs considering that they're taking US tax sponsored Medicaid money for residency spots. If the PDs are all about MD > DO >>> FMG/IMG, I would not be on here yapping about this nonsense. We're about to hit a residency spot crunch that doesn't really affect me, but really your class and classes below you. Yet, we have foreign PDs out there who are favoring foreign medical students over US medical students. No, it's not a 250-260 Step 1 FMG over your 200 Step 1 AMG. That's complete bull. If there's a difference, it's more of your 230s-240s IMG/FMG over your 220s-230s AMG DO.

I'm here to make you aware of such occurrence. Hopefully, with more awareness, the medical community can raise a ruckus over these foreign favored PDs down the road and put pressure on them to do the right thing, which is US medical grads first.

 

[Epilepsy365]

This is more in line with what I have seen. But with this change in USMLE, who knows?

Doesn't really change anything bc Step 2 can still be scored. In fact, I would argue that this hurts DOs more than IMGs/FMGs because these people have 12-16 months of prep for either Step 1 or Step 2. Doesn't change much for them in term of scheduling. Without a drastic revamp of the DO curriculum, DO students are def behind the 8 ball in term of maximizing their competitiveness for the class of 2023 to 2025.

 

[deleted898021]

That's not the point that I'm trying to make. You're trying to make the point that MD > DO > FMG/IMG. I'm trying to make the point that MD > DO = FMG = IMG, based on personal exp on the interview trail right now

I as a DO and some people as DOs have interviewed at places like Cedar Sinais, some of the UCs, some of the UTs, and some programs in Minnesota, and some places in the NE (def not an AOA program or some community program) while getting rejected at some of these IMG favored residency programs including this program and some mid tier NE programs. So, sit down and listen more instead. It's not bc of my assumed inferior stats or my COMLEX PE failure (which no residency programs have seen considering that all IIs were given before my results).

That's not right, and against the mission of the residency programs considering that they're taking US tax sponsored Medicaid money for residency spots. If the PDs are all about MD > DO >>> FMG/IMG, I would not be on here yapping about this nonsense. We're about to hit a residency spot crunch that doesn't really affect me, but really your class and classes below you. Yet, we have foreign PDs out there who are favoring foreign medical students over US medical students. No, it's not a 250-260 Step 1 FMG over your 200 Step 1 AMG. That's complete bull. If there's a difference, it's more of your 230s-240s IMG/FMG over your 220s-230s AMG DO.

I'm here to make you aware of such occurrence. Hopefully, with more awareness, the medical community can raise a ruckus over these foreign favored PDs down the road and put pressure on them to do the right thing, which is US American grads first.

Okay but why are you wanting to go to one of those IMG favored programs in the first place? Let them be, it wont affect you and you will still match fine and in a "better" place as a DO. I think this MD > DO = FMG = IMG equation only holds true for those programs where the PD is an IMG MD, and to a certain extent maybe to Neurology as a field in general but certainly not overall in the match process across all fields. I don't think any USMD or DO is going to create this ruckus in a field like Neurology because its not a desired field at all and there are plenty other spots where a DO and USMD will match and overall will match better than the IMG, its not really an issue.. Neurology has more seats than applicants the last time I checked or has that changed?

 

[deleted898021]

Doesn't really change anything bc Step 2 can still be scored. In fact, I would argue that this hurts DOs more than IMGs/FMGs because these people have 12-16 months of prep for either Step 1 or Step 2. Doesn't change much for them in term of scheduling. Without a drastic revamp of the DO curriculum, DO students are def behind the 8 ball in term of maximizing their competitiveness for the class of 2023 to 2025.

Honestly, the DO faculty is comprised of a bunch of incompetent PhD *****s who can't teach even basic science. It's a recipe for disaster asking these same boneheads to teach clinical medicine now.

I agree on the last part, but I can't image how having Step go P/F is worse for DO then IMG, Step 2CS isn't going to overtake Step 1 for matching, its a clinical based exam and generally speaking the scores on Step 2 are higher then for Step1, also a lot of students wont even have a STEP2CS by the time they apply so I doubt it could objectively be used by PD's to separate people when a decent number of applicants don't even have a reported score...

 

[Epilepsy365]

Okay but why are you wanting to go to one of those IMG favored programs in the first place? Let them be, it wont affect you and you will still match fine and in a "better" place as a DO. I think this MD > DO = FMG = IMG equation only holds true for those programs where the PD is an IMG MD, and to a certain extent maybe to Neurology as a field in general but certainly not overall in the match process across all fields. I don't think any USMD or DO is going to create this ruckus in a field like Neurology because its not a desired field at all and there are plenty other spots where a DO and USMD will match and overall will match better than the IMG, its not really and issue..

I have news for you. It's not just in Neurology. It's clearly not MD > DO > FMG/IMG for PDs -- the lie that your school admin would like you to believe.

 

[deleted898021]

I have news for you. It's not just in Neurology. It's clearly not MD > DO > FMG/IMG for PDs -- the lie that your school admin would like you to believe.

Then explain to me the 98% placement rate for DO's and the 68% placement rate for IMG's overall. I have talked to people on the interview trail and they have heard IMG's with better stats then them get less interviews and at "worser" places despite applying to many more programs. Neurology maybe an exception to this rule, like I said prbly because its not a desired field and the PD's just take the best applicant overall. I still am skeptical about that but I certainly don't think its the case for all the fields.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Okay but why are you wanting to go to one of those IMG favored programs in the first place? Let them be, it wont affect you and you will still match fine and in a "better" place as a DO. I think this MD > DO = FMG = IMG equation only holds true for those programs where the PD is an IMG MD, and to a certain extent maybe to Neurology as a field in general but certainly not overall in the match process across all fields. I don't think any USMD or DO is going to create this ruckus in a field like Neurology because its not a desired field at all and there are plenty other spots where a DO and USMD will match and overall will match better than the IMG, its not really an issue.. Neurology has more seats than applicants the last time I checked or has that changed?

You are wrong about Neurology being an undesirable field. Awareness is slowly rising among DO and MD medical grads. It's one of the best kept secrets with top 5 job prospect (close to having as many jobs per doc as FM or Psych), average income among specialties (but can get to top tier if you're willing to hustle like crazy or do NIR), practice setting flexibility as an attending, and geographically open.

Do an elective during your 3rd year and find out.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

 

[Epilepsy365]

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

I mean overall, just in general, this survey says otherwise.

It's bc of red flags, like yrs away from graduation, CS failure, and etc... more among IMG/FMG. But don't assume that if a IMG/FMG without these red flags with like a Step 2 240s vs you a DO with Step 2 230s, programs view you as being more desirable and will opt to interview you. That's not the case. 9/10 PDs will take the FMG/IMG with Step 2 240s for an II over a DO with Step 2 230s. My point is that the difference between a FMG/IMG/DO is marginal at best among PDs. Honestly, the whole justification of a FMG/IMG with a 10 pts diff is Step as being a superior candidate is pure laziness. There is more to making a kicka$$ doc than a 10-30 pts diff on the USMLE -- a crap ton of other intangibles that can't be captured.

My personal opinion is that it should be US grads first, and then leftover crumbs for the best among FMG/IMGs. But, that's not the case at the moment across specialties. It should be considering that US tax money is sponsoring these residency spots.

 

[deleted898021]

You are wrong about Neurology being an undesirable field. Awareness is slowly rising among DO and MD medical grads. It's one of the best kept secrets with top 5 job prospect (close to having as many jobs per doc as FM or Psych), average income among specialties (but can get to top tier if you're willing to hustle like crazy or do NIR), practice setting flexibility as an attending, moderate b!itch work (or minimal if you do a Fellowship), and geographically open.

Do an elective during your 3rd year and find out.

I maybe wrong, I have nothing against neurology but its not desirable or competitive.. A 240 IMG may match at a better spot then a 230 Step 1 DO in Neurology because Neuro PD's are used to matching more IMG(More FMG's not Caribbean IMG's but thats a different point), but in another field like say EM, Mid tier university IM, Anesthesia, Rads or PMR or even General Surgery etc, this is certainly not the case, the PD's will 9/10 will go with the American grad, the FMG's have to get visas, thats a huge hassle and the caribbean IMG's have stigma attached to them in certain fields like EM they even have a hard time getting aways as many places straight up deny them, they may still match into those fields but with many many more applications.. I think you applying in a very FMG(more so then Caribbean IMG friendly) field has given you a wrong perspective.

 

[sab3156]

lol many of the most competitive programs in the entire residency world (across numerous specialties) will take FMGs over DOs all day. every day.

 

[BoneWizard]

lol many of the most competitive programs in the entire residency world (across numerous specialties) will take FMGs over DOs all day. every day. That's a fact that must badly sting the Chapman points of some die-hard defenders of the DO degree in this thread.

I don't really mind FMGs seeing as some of them are from the best medical schools in their respective country/the world with equally impressive CVs. You can't really compare generic DO student to MD from Karolinska.

 

[sab3156]

I don't really mind FMGs seeing as some of them are from the best medical schools in their respective country/the world with equally impressive CVs. You can't really compare generic DO student to MD from Karolinska.

The programs I am referring to will never touch a DO with a 1000 mile pole even with the same application.

The prestige of the medical school of FMGs is really not a factor here.

Point is, along with what some others are saying in this thread, DOs are still bottom of the pile along with FMGs and IMGs, with FMGs being able to access programs that DOs can never even think about.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The programs I am referring to will never touch a DO with a 1000 mile pole even with the same application.

The prestige of the medical school of FMGs is really not a factor here.

Point is, along with what some others are saying in this thread, DOs are still bottom of the pile along with FMGs and IMGs, with FMGs being able to access programs that DOs can never even think about.

Your last point can also go vice versa. So what's the big deal?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yes there are bad residency programs that only take DO's, yes there are bad residency programs that only take IMG/FMG's, yes there are programs that will easily take an IMG/FMG over a DO, and yes it is better to be a DO in the match than an IMG/FMG. I don't even get what both sides are trying to argue anymore. Ya'll are a bunch of 4 y.o.'s having a sword fight in the wind.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I have news for you. It's not just in Neurology. It's clearly not MD > DO > FMG/IMG for PDs -- the lie that your school admin would like you to believe.

Dude, I already debunked your DO=IMG nonsense with the PD survey data earlier. Unless your applying like Neurosurgery or plastics PDs prefer DO in the VAST majority of programs. Period. You literally claimed "IMGs have unlimited access to all aways", also 100% wrong about that as I proved. Your anecdotal experience on the interview trail is nothing compared to actual data. Why are you doubling down?? Save some face man.

 

[deleted898021]

Dude, I already debunked your DO=IMG nonsense with the PD survey data earlier. Unless your applying like Neurosurgery or plastics PDs prefer DO in the VAST majority of programs. Period. You literally claimed "IMGs have unlimited access to all aways", also 100% wrong about that as I proved. Your anecdotal experience on the interview trail is nothing compared to actual data. Why are you doubling down?? Save some face man.

He’s using his anecdotes in neurology one of the least competitive and most FMG(not soo much carribean IMG friendly) residencies and extrapolating that to all programs across all fields..

 

[Dr.Bruh]

He’s using his anecdotes in neurology one of the least competitive and most FMG(not soo much carribean IMG friendly) residencies and extrapolating that to all programs across all fields..

Even worse is I showed him the data across field which directly contradicts his core argument and he/she has not acknowledged it once.