All Branch Topic (ABT) USUHS; Prior Service; I'd like your thoughts.

[nonTradwithPS]

I'm a long time listener and a first time caller...

Just a little context, I'm applying to med school this cycle and will be 30 when classes start. I'm prior military with 5 years enlisted AD and because of that I'm strongly considering USUHS. I'm well aware of the down falls of military medicine however I cannot imagine that the suffering would be any worse than what I already experienced. My wife and I are good with the military lifestyle (both prior service). I know I will ultimately make less, however with my prior service the overall financial gap closes a bit. I'd be in the ball park of $81,000/yr as a student (Bethesda), $85,000-100,000ish as an intern/GMO, and $113,000 as a resident (San Diego). The locations are hypothetical but I'm guessing realistic.

I recognize that by going into milmed I will not be practicing conventional medicine, but rather military medicine. I'm interested in PHS (possibly) but more so the Navy as I would love to be amongst Marines again and serve them. Also I'll add that I'm well aware of the GMO aspect of things.

With that said: I know many of you have big problems with milmed but despite those grievances, is there a residency that you wished you did or that you feel would have made the profession enjoyable or at least more bearable? I'll quickly say that I know it's a long way off and I'm not "planning" to go do whatever you say. I'm mostly curious if you could have seen yourself enjoying a particular area of military medicine "if you did things differently". I would also love to hear from anyone that went into a field that they enjoyed. Because I'm a non-traditional student I appreciate school so much more and have loved everything I've learned to include biochem, physiology, pharma, anatomy, etc... I've also done 36 hours of shadowing (EM, ENT, PEDS) so far and liked practically everything. I'm very open minded and can honestly see myself enjoying many things.

I am ultimately considering the military because I know the massive sacrifices they make (as I was once in their shoes) and I whole heartedly believe they need good docs too. With that said I'm not naive enough to think that the monetary aspects don't matter. As we all know USUHS pays better early in the game. I would make more than most with my prior service pay and I would absolutely make it a career to take advantage of the pension and insurance. I also know that to make the most out of it I would need to be maxing out TSP contributions and seeking income tax-free state residency. I've also thought that it would only be wise for us to buy homes on an aggressive 15 year mortgage to minimize losses to mortgage interest and to retain BAH as equity (I know there will be times where living on base is better). To wrap up my post I will say that a big reason that the USUHS "early money" is appealing is that through my undergrad my wife and I have been comfortable but we live within a tight budget and I feel as though I would have a lot of relief from the financial stressors while at USUHS. Pinching pennies is getting old and I am not looking forward to another 6-9 years of it. We have two kids that will be 3.5 and 1.5 years when classes start. My wife is amazingly supportive but I fear that she will be stuck in a small apartment/old home with two kids because we couldn't afford for her to do anything (via the conventional civilian route of borrowing money). Additionally, we both have come from humble means and have zero financial support from family and with the crack downs on Cost of Attendance there doesn't seem to be very much wiggle room in terms of borrowing a little extra. I know the military is hard enough on a family and marriage but I've seen many that do well because they actively work to strengthen them and nurture those relationships. I know I've left a novel here, but I've seen lots of first time posters get eaten alive so I wanted to be thorough to get the most meaningful responses.

Knowing what you know now, if you were in my shoes is there a path in (navy) military medicine that could have been worth it to you? Also, is there anything I'm missing or information I have wrong?

Thanks in advance. I hope to hear from many of you.


*For my own reasons I'm not interested in HPSP and of course I'm applying to other schools. I also have not listed my pre-med "stats" but I consider myself a very competitive candidate. I feel as though I have the drive and work ethic to match into competitive residencies as long as I keep it up.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Cooperd0g]

I agree about HPSP.

Do you still have your Post 9/11 GI Bill? If so, strongly recommend you look at HSCP and a state school as well.

If you do not have the GI Bill left, what state are you a resident of? HSCP may still be a decent option if school is cheap there.

I went to USUHS and I liked it, but it was my second choice to HSCP and state school because that is a shorter commitment and faster to retirement allowing for more options if you are unhappy back in the mil.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

I agree about HPSP.

Do you still have your Post 9/11 GI Bill? If so, strongly recommend you look at HSCP and a state school as well.

If you do not have the GI Bill left, what state are you a resident of? HSCP may still be a decent option if school is cheap there.

I went to USUHS and I liked it, but it was my second choice to HSCP and state school because that is a shorter commitment and faster to retirement allowing for more options if you are unhappy back in the mil.

Ok, no GI bill. I’ve exhausted it for my undergrad. I am a Utah resident and in-state tuition runs $36,000/yr. Unfotunately because of the culture here, everyone and their dog wants to be a doctor/dentist so it’s pretty competitive up at the university of Utah. I believe I have a good shot though so it’s of course still an option. I’ve looked into HSCP and I don’t believe it will be nearly as worth it. They make about $40,000/yr and get AD time but as far as I can tell it wouldn’t alleviate the budget issues while in school. Additionally I have some VA disability that I will have to surrender and it would only be worth it if I went to USUHS.

 

[deleted480308]

It seems like a lot to stake your whole career on only one school accepting you

 

[nonTradwithPS]

@Cooperd0g what are you trained in? Have you enjoyed it? If you were in my shoes would you have done anything differently?

 

[nonTradwithPS]

It seems like a lot to stake your whole career on only one school accepting you

I mentioned above that I am applying to many schools as USUHS is far from my only choice. If I went that route it would be to make a career so I’m trying to be thorough as this decision probably carries far more consequences than which MD school should I pick?

Are you a physician? Would you mind giving me your feedback on what you might go into if you were in my shoes?

 

[deleted480308]

I mentioned above that I am applying to many schools as USUHS is far from my only choice. If I went that route it would be to make a career so I’m trying to be thorough as this decision probably carries far more consequences than which MD school should I pick?

Are you a physician? Would you mind giving me your feedback on what you might go into if you were in my shoes?

If tou want cash flow during school you should take another look at thr hscp in the navy. It’s more cash during school than the hpsp. Keeps you active and at 16 tis by the end of your obligation

Another option to maximize cash flow in school is the reserve/Guard mdssp. Between cost of living loans and the stipend you could bring in >$50k/yr. much longer obligation but you still civilian for your day job

 

[Gastrapathy]

Chapter 31 (Voc. Rehab)

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Chapter 31 (Voc. Rehab)

Ok, I'll be upfront with you. I'm already approved for Voc Rehab and I've signed an academic contract for them to pay for medical school. Just to be clear... this is absolutely my first choice! Now here is why I'm on this forum asking about USUHS. I live in Utah and we only have a single state school. It happens to be MD. A couple years back Rocky Vista opened up (DO) but so far it has a pretty bad reputation but it all fairness I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to start a med school. So to be clear I would like to avoid RVU if possible. Utah has a cultural thing where everyone wants to become a doctor and because of that our school receives far more applications than seats available. As I said, I consider myself to be competitive candidate but nothing is guaranteed. I spoke with my counselor and asked what would happen if I had to go out of state. She said they would contact that office and negotiate a transfer. Each office different and managed independently. There is no guarantee that THEY will approve me or that they even have the funds for me. So I'm on here trying to establish a back up plan. I don't think its unreasonable to investigate the military option in the event that Voc Rehab falls through. I'm kind of at the point of "I'll believe it when I see it".

I've been a wallflower on SDN for a while and I've ready many of your posts and would like your input. If I get into the University of Utah than its a done deal and I'm riding the Voc Rehab train all the way. But if I don't, I have to decide between free tuition at a brand new DO school (Rocky Vista) or USUHS or very likely go out of state and pay for absolutely everything on my own... What are your thoughts? And and I mentioned in my post I'm a bit concerned about spendable income while in school. This whole process is hard enough on a marriage so I would really like to avoid putting more hardship on my wife. With the way Cost of Attendance is set up now, I'm not seeing ways to borrow more money. The thought of maxing out credit cards makes me want to gouge my eyes, and, frankly I don't even know if I could get enough credit cards to cover me for 4 years until I can at least make a resident's salary.


BTW, I know there's tons of repeat threads all over this place but rather than high jacking someone else's I thought I'd start my own as most people on here aren't in my situation. Thank you, seriously.

 

[deleted480308]

Ok, I'll be upfront with you. I'm already approved for Voc Rehab and I've signed an academic contract for them to pay for medical school. Just to be clear... this is absolutely my first choice! Now here is why I'm on this forum asking about USUHS. I live in Utah and we only have a single state school. It happens to be MD. A couple years back Rocky Vista opened up (DO) but so far it has a pretty bad reputation but it all fairness I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to start a med school. So to be clear I would like to avoid RVU if possible. Utah has a cultural thing where everyone wants to become a doctor and because of that our school receives far more applications than seats available. As I said, I consider myself to be competitive candidate but nothing is guaranteed. I spoke with my counselor and asked what would happen if I had to go out of state. She said they would contact that office and negotiate a transfer. Each office different and managed independently. There is no guarantee that THEY will approve me or that they even have the funds for me. So I'm on here trying to establish a back up plan. I don't think its unreasonable to investigate the military option in the event that Voc Rehab falls through. I'm kind of at the point of "I'll believe it when I see it".

I've been a wallflower on SDN for a while and I've ready many of your posts and would like your input. If I get into the University of Utah than its a done deal and I'm riding the Voc Rehab train all the way. But if I don't, I have to decide between free tuition at a brand new DO school (Rocky Vista) or USUHS or very likely go out of state and pay for absolutely everything on my own... What are your thoughts? And and I mentioned in my post I'm a bit concerned about spendable income while in school. This whole process is hard enough on a marriage so I would really like to avoid putting more hardship on my wife. With the way Cost of Attendance is set up now, I'm not seeing ways to borrow more money. The thought of maxing out credit cards makes me want to gouge my eyes, and, frankly I don't even know if I could get enough credit cards to cover me for 4 years until I can at least make a resident's salary.


BTW, I know there's tons of repeat threads all over this place but rather than high jacking someone else's I thought I'd start my own as most people on here aren't in my situation. Thank you, seriously.

Only way to get cash above the lending for cost of living is (that I know of....and I looked)

Hpsp
Usuhs
Hcsp
Mdssp (guard/reserve)
Nhsc (civilian primary care program that locks you into certain specialties)

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Only way to get cash above the lending for cost of living is (that I know of....and I looked)

Hpsp
Usuhs
Hcsp
Mdssp (guard/reserve)
Nhsc (civilian primary care program that locks you into certain specialties)

Right?! I'm put in this weird position that I have this absolutely amazing opportunity (pending acceptance) where they'll pay for my tuition but I'll barely have enough to get by day to day...

What about you, would you go to the brand new DO school if it meant free tuition and BAH or would you reconsider the USUHS route?

 

[deleted480308]

Right?! I'm put in this weird position that I have this absolutely amazing opportunity (pending acceptance) where they'll pay for my tuition but I'll barely have enough to get by day to day...

What about you, would you go to the brand new DO school if it meant free tuition and BAH or would you reconsider the USUHS route?

I would apply broadly and if my stats were as good as you say yours are I would have multiple acceptances beyond rvu....uhuhs has it’s advantages but the relative pros decrease when you have free tuition literally everywhere

 

[nonTradwithPS]

I would apply broadly and if my stats were as good as you say yours are I would have multiple acceptances beyond rvu....uhuhs has it’s advantages but the relative pros decrease when you have free tuition literally everywhere

I definitely am applying to a bunch of schools, but the problem is that I have absolutely no guarantee that another state's Voc Rehab office will fund me. They have the right to approve me or deny me. In fact I've read about a huge variability from state to state regarding their willingness to fund anything like this. Honestly, I wonder how many offices would be like "sure, we'll spend a large portion of our budget on this out of state student who has no connection to (insert state)". I don't like talking myself up because there's enough of that crap among pre-meds. I was just trying to convey that I'm no slouch. Obviously if I can get Voc Rehab funding in another state that would instantly become my plan B, but there is an issue there as well. Once I start getting letters of acceptance I have a limited time to get my counselor on the phone with these other offices and work out an agreement worth a pretty large amount of money. I'm not here to cry about nothing, I'm just refusing to leave my future up to chance. Voc Rehab is preferable but there is a chance that they would only pay for the brand new DO school. If that were the case would you go there?

*Made an edit for clarification and spelling.

 

[Cooperd0g]

With HSCP you will get in state tuition to any state school. Some schools are less expensive. Given that I would apply to every state school there is where it would leave you some extra money after your salary paid tuition.

I don’t know if I would want RVU - Utah ... but it would be hard to pass up the Ch 31.

I was a pilot before and now am Aerospace Medicine. I like it and it seems like it was made for me, but you won’t find many on this forum that regard it well.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

With HSCP you will get in state tuition to any state school. Some schools are less expensive. Given that I would apply to every state school there is where it would leave you some extra money after your salary paid tuition.

I don’t know if I would want RVU - Utah ... but it would be hard to pass up the Ch 31.

I was a pilot before and now am Aerospace Medicine. I like it and it seems like it was made for me, but you won’t find many on this forum that regard it well.

Thanks for he response Cooperd0g.

To the rest of you, if you were in my shoes and didnt get into the University of Utah and can’t get your Voc rehab commitment transferred... would you go to RVU for free or would you go USUHS? This is essesntially what my whole post boils down to.

 

[95ragtop]

That boils down to everyone's personal situation. I have an acceptance to a state school, but my choice school is USUHS because I have 13 years active duty, want to continue serving, and I want my wife and son to continue receiving the medical care they need without having to take out ridiculous loans. I try not to think about it too much because at the end of either path you're a doctor. There is no wrong choice.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

That boils down to everyone's personal situation. I have an acceptance to a state school, but my choice school is USUHS because I have 13 years active duty, want to continue serving, and I want my wife and son to continue receiving the medical care they need without having to take out ridiculous loans. I try not to think about it too much because at the end of either path you're a doctor. There is no wrong choice.

Oh man, yeah if I was you I would definitely go USUHS.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Thanks for he response Cooperd0g.

To the rest of you, if you were in my shoes and didnt get into the University of Utah and can’t get your Voc rehab commitment transferred... would you go to RVU for free or would you go USUHS? This is essesntially what my whole post boils down to.

That is easy - USUHS without hesitation.

 

[militaryPHYS]

My advice to those considering USUHS vs. other options -- If you know the military system well and can accept/deal with the nuances, shortcomings, frustrations that come along with military medicine while also being OK with a potential career as a military physician then USUHS is a great option. This is especially true for people who also want a "normal financial life" starting Day 1 of med school vice Day 1 post-civilian residency 7-10 years later.

The education is top notch, tuition is covered, you get a ridiculous salary for being a medical student and you are actually accruing somewhat functional military time starting day 1. (AD time towards post-9/11 GI bill transfer, 4 extra years tacked on if you do reach eligible retirement time, healthcare for you and the fam, access to TSP contributions which you can max out bc you get paid so much). If you do HPSP you can leave 3 years earlier but your time is useless if you decide to stay. Many people think being able to leave 3 years before a USUHS person is priceless, but then again, maybe they shouldn't have chosen a military pathway in the first place?? If you can't imagine yourself as a possible career military physician then USUHS is not for you...I would also argue that HPSP isn't for you. Sorry...USUHS vs. HPSP wasn't your question but I know others will be reading this.


As to your specialty question...I let military medicine adjust my pathway. I knew I was going to owe at least 7 years for USUHS and mentally I was preparing for a possible milmed career, so I wanted to be as happy as possible in milmed as I could. I also wasn't persuaded by the size of my debt to affect which specialty I chose because I had no debt. Therefore, it was purely based on what I wanted to do and what would make me the happiest within the military healthcare system. During 3rd year I realized that something surgical was for me...then I realized that ortho surgeons in the Navy have a much better lifestyle and thankfully I really like doing it...Then I realized that the military orthopedic sports practice provides an almost ideal practice for any practicing Ortho Surgeon (military or civilian) while maintaining a pretty awesome lifestyle within the military.

So long story short, do not set your sights on something specific before med school starts (military or civilian). Watch and see who is the happiest doing their jobs and consider if it is something you would also like to do. I wouldn't choose an ok DO school over a great MD school (if you are OK with a possible milmed career).

 

[nonTradwithPS]

My advice to those considering USUHS vs. other options -- If you know the military system well and can accept/deal with the nuances, shortcomings, frustrations that come along with military medicine while also being OK with a potential career as a military physician then USUHS is a great option. This is especially true for people who also want a "normal financial life" starting Day 1 of med school vice Day 1 post-civilian residency 7-10 years later.

The education is top notch, tuition is covered, you get a ridiculous salary for being a medical student and you are actually accruing somewhat functional military time starting day 1. (AD time towards post-9/11 GI bill transfer, 4 extra years tacked on if you do reach eligible retirement time, healthcare for you and the fam, access to TSP contributions which you can max out bc you get paid so much). If you do HPSP you can leave 3 years earlier but your time is useless if you decide to stay. Many people think being able to leave 3 years before a USUHS person is priceless, but then again, maybe they shouldn't have chosen a military pathway in the first place?? If you can't imagine yourself as a possible career military physician then USUHS is not for you...I would also argue that HPSP isn't for you. Sorry...USUHS vs. HPSP wasn't your question but I know others will be reading this.


As to your specialty question...I let military medicine adjust my pathway. I knew I was going to owe at least 7 years for USUHS and mentally I was preparing for a possible milmed career, so I wanted to be as happy as possible in milmed as I could. I also wasn't persuaded by the size of my debt to affect which specialty I chose because I had no debt. Therefore, it was purely based on what I wanted to do and what would make me the happiest within the military healthcare system. During 3rd year I realized that something surgical was for me...then I realized that ortho surgeons in the Navy have a much better lifestyle and thankfully I really like doing it...Then I realized that the military orthopedic sports practice provides an almost ideal practice for any practicing Ortho Surgeon (military or civilian) while maintaining a pretty awesome lifestyle within the military.

So long story short, do not set your sights on something specific before med school starts (military or civilian). Watch and see who is the happiest doing their jobs and consider if it is something you would also like to do. I wouldn't choose an ok DO school over a great MD school (if you are OK with a possible milmed career).

That is an awesome perspective. Thanks for taking the time to write back.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I’d take option 3. Apply broadly but stay out of the military. Veterans get in state tuition in a number of places. Your counselor can’t guarantee you’d get approved for Voc Rehab in another state but it’s likely particularly since your already approved. Rejecting you would require effort since you’d appeal, call your congresscritter, etc. Your looking at residency in 5-6 years. No one can tell you what’s coming in the MHS.

If it really is RVU vs USUHS, go to USUHS.

As for Utah being more competitive than most state schools...it really isn’t. Everyone feels that way but objectively their LizzyM is 66.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I'm a long time listener and a first time caller...

Just a little context, I'm applying to med school this cycle and will be 30 when classes start. I'm prior military with 5 years enlisted AD and because of that I'm strongly considering USUHS. I'm well aware of the down falls of military medicine however I cannot imagine that the suffering would be any worse than what I already experienced. My wife and I are good with the military lifestyle (both prior service). I know I will ultimately make less, however with my prior service the overall financial gap closes a bit. I'd be in the ball park of $81,000/yr as a student (Bethesda), $85,000-100,000ish as an intern/GMO, and $113,000 as a resident (San Diego). The locations are hypothetical but I'm guessing realistic.

I recognize that by going into milmed I will not be practicing conventional medicine, but rather military medicine. I'm interested in PHS (possibly) but more so the Navy as I would love to be amongst Marines again and serve them. Also I'll add that I'm well aware of the GMO aspect of things.

With that said: I know many of you have big problems with milmed but despite those grievances, is there a residency that you wished you did or that you feel would have made the profession enjoyable or at least more bearable? I'll quickly say that I know it's a long way off and I'm not "planning" to go do whatever you say. I'm mostly curious if you could have seen yourself enjoying a particular area of military medicine "if you did things differently". I would also love to hear from anyone that went into a field that they enjoyed. Because I'm a non-traditional student I appreciate school so much more and have loved everything I've learned to include biochem, physiology, pharma, anatomy, etc... I've also done 36 hours of shadowing (EM, ENT, PEDS) so far and liked practically everything. I'm very open minded and can honestly see myself enjoying many things.

I am ultimately considering the military because I know the massive sacrifices they make (as I was once in their shoes) and I whole heartedly believe they need good docs too. With that said I'm not naive enough to think that the monetary aspects don't matter. As we all know USUHS pays better early in the game. I would make more than most with my prior service pay and I would absolutely make it a career to take advantage of the pension and insurance. I also know that to make the most out of it I would need to be maxing out TSP contributions and seeking income tax-free state residency. I've also thought that it would only be wise for us to buy homes on an aggressive 15 year mortgage to minimize losses to mortgage interest and to retain BAH as equity (I know there will be times where living on base is better). To wrap up my post I will say that a big reason that the USUHS "early money" is appealing is that through my undergrad my wife and I have been comfortable but we live within a tight budget and I feel as though I would have a lot of relief from the financial stressors while at USUHS. Pinching pennies is getting old and I am not looking forward to another 6-9 years of it. We have two kids that will be 3.5 and 1.5 years when classes start. My wife is amazingly supportive but I fear that she will be stuck in a small apartment/old home with two kids because we couldn't afford for her to do anything (via the conventional civilian route of borrowing money). Additionally, we both have come from humble means and have zero financial support from family and with the crack downs on Cost of Attendance there doesn't seem to be very much wiggle room in terms of borrowing a little extra. I know the military is hard enough on a family and marriage but I've seen many that do well because they actively work to strengthen them and nurture those relationships. I know I've left a novel here, but I've seen lots of first time posters get eaten alive so I wanted to be thorough to get the most meaningful responses.

Knowing what you know now, if you were in my shoes is there a path in (navy) military medicine that could have been worth it to you? Also, is there anything I'm missing or information I have wrong?

Thanks in advance. I hope to hear from many of you.


*For my own reasons I'm not interested in HPSP and of course I'm applying to other schools. I also have not listed my pre-med "stats" but I consider myself a very competitive candidate. I feel as though I have the drive and work ethic to match into competitive residencies as long as I keep it up.

I think prior service folks are far more likely to be glad they went into the military. As long as you're aware of how the military match really works, why not?

Remember it isn't a financial decision though. Go to USUHS because you want to be a military doctor. The finances will be fine either way.

 

[soapieMD]

But if I don't, I have to decide between free tuition at a brand new DO school (Rocky Vista) or USUHS or very likely go out of state and pay for absolutely everything on my own... What are your thoughts?

I echo what everyone else has said. Absolutely go USUHS (established MD school) over RVU (new DO school) for your long term prospects in medicine. I am a class of 2013 USUHS grad and current Navy FS returning to GME in June. I share many of the frustrations of the military docs on this forum. Biggest frustrations are feeling like a cog in the machine, poor leadership, inadequate prep for independent practice(GMO) and control your life (surprise hotfill billets).

That being said, I think USU was a top notch medical school education and I would not trade my time as a FS with the marines for anything! Looking back I have no regrets of going to USUHS and I was lucky enough to match in my desired specialty.

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that I have heard that non-operational medical specialties may become scarce in the future. If you have your heart set out to be a pediatric cardiologist I would consider staying out of milmed.

 

[Gastrapathy]

@soapieMD 8 years as a GMO??? Hope you're coming back to Derm.

And...soapie as in Thailand or ???

 

[soapieMD]

@soapieMD 8 years as a GMO??? Hope you're coming back to Derm.

And...soapie as in Thailand or ???

Oops I mean class of 2013! I started in 2009. And yes and yes...though i never participated, marines give good call signs.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Oops I mean class of 2013! I started in 2009. And yes and yes...though i never participated, marines give good call signs.

Now how do they give you that name with no participation...just sayin'.

Just don't use the single person GI waiting room head to take a dump like a couple of your attendings. It smells up the place and our staff are keeping track of the offenders even when they pretend not to notice.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

I echo what everyone else has said. Absolutely go USUHS (established MD school) over RVU (new DO school) for your long term prospects in medicine. I am a class of 2013 USUHS grad and current Navy FS returning to GME in June. I share many of the frustrations of the military docs on this forum. Biggest frustrations are feeling like a cog in the machine, poor leadership, inadequate prep for independent practice(GMO) and control your life (surprise hotfill billets).

That being said, I think USU was a top notch medical school education and I would not trade my time as a FS with the marines for anything! Looking back I have no regrets of going to USUHS and I was lucky enough to match in my desired specialty.

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that I have heard that non-operational medical specialties may become scarce in the future. If you have your heart set out to be a pediatric cardiologist I would consider staying out of milmed.

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback.

 

[j4pac]

5 years is NOT many with regards to years toward retirement. I wouldn't do USUHS unless you 100% wanted to do military or if you didn't have any other decent options. Get your application up to par and apply broadly enough to give yourself enough options. After you get yourself acceptances...you'd have a better idea of what to do...and we'd probably be of more help.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

5 years is NOT many with regards to years toward retirement. I wouldn't do USUHS unless you 100% wanted to do military or if you didn't have any other decent options. Get your application up to par and apply broadly enough to give yourself enough options. After you get yourself acceptances...you'd have a better idea of what to do...and we'd probably be of more help.

Right, I'm not using my 5 years of prior service as justification for re-entry but rather to explain that my income would be a little better than for others and that I've seen how bad the military can be. Voc Rehab is clearly my first choice, however if I am forced to go out of state than there might be an issue with getting another state to pay for it. That's basically why I was asking people's thoughts on the disadvantages & benefits of USUHS vs. new DO school.

Forgive me it this is a silly question, but are you military? I see in your tag that you're a PM&R resident but I didn't think there was any of that in military medicine. If so, would you elaborate a little on what you think about it thus far and where you tend to be utilized? Based on what I know about that specialty, I have an interest in PM&R. While on one of my deployments (USMC) my vehicle took an IED hit and it was pretty hard on my body. I was very grateful for the physical therapy that I went through and I could totally see myself serving Marines again in that capacity.

 

[j4pac]

Right, I'm not using my 5 years of prior service as justification for re-entry but rather to explain that my income would be a little better than for others and that I've seen how bad the military can be. Voc Rehab is clearly my first choice, however if I am forced to go out of state than there might be an issue with getting another state to pay for it. That's basically why I was asking people's thoughts on the disadvantages & benefits of USUHS vs. new DO school.

Forgive me it this is a silly question, but are you military? I see in your tag that you're a PM&R resident but I didn't think there was any of that in military medicine. If so, would you elaborate a little on what you think about it thus far and where you tend to be utilized? Based on what I know about that specialty, I have an interest in PM&R. While on one of my deployments (USMC) my vehicle took an IED hit and it was pretty hard on my body. I was very grateful for the physical therapy that I went through and I could totally see myself serving Marines again in that capacity.

I did HPSP, Internship at Reed, then a 5-year stint as a Navy Flight surgeon. I wanted to go to Reed for PM&R but the Navy didn't have a need for PM&R and wouldn't let me go to Reed for training. I did my time, got out, and I am at a civilian program getting my training.

My internship wasn't bad. I felt my training was good enough for what I wanted to do. The people at Reed were great...didn't care for most of the NIH staff. It really didn't feel like I was in the military. I RARELY saw active duty service members. I loved being a flight surgeon. I loved the training and the community. But I was fortunate to get to work with the service members, and not everyone has the same experience that I had. But no personal regrets...it helped me become the person and physician I am today. But with that said...my family and I had to make significant sacrifices along the way. I'm now 35 years old and am not complete with residency.

I love PM&R. I think that it's a very underrated field. If you like MSK and have an interested in function/biomechanics...there's probably something within the vast field of PM&R that you'd like. If you have questions about PM&R, the programs, how to be competitive...feel free to PM me.

 

[In4thelonghaul]

I'm a long time listener and a first time caller...

Knowing what you know now, if you were in my shoes is there a path in (navy) military medicine that could have been worth it to you? Also, is there anything I'm missing or information I have wrong?

Thanks in advance. I hope to hear from many of you.


*For my own reasons I'm not interested in HPSP and of course I'm applying to other schools. I also have not listed my pre-med "stats" but I consider myself a very competitive candidate. I feel as though I have the drive and work ethic to match into competitive residencies as long as I keep it up.

I went to USUHS with right at 7 years of enlisted time (Air Force) and graduated 2015. There are certainly frustrations with USU and milmed in general, which are well documented here, but overall I wouldn't do anything differently. I am in my second year of GMO (Flight Surgeon) and I'll do one more before starting Derm. I have an awesome job and I'm happy with the path I've taken. Military medicine and it's GME are changing though, and I would probably be more uncomfortable about my options if I was just starting now. I agree with most of the others though, if you can go to Utah for free then it's a no brainer, but I would take USUHS over RVU for sure. Best of luck.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

A

I went to USUHS with right at 7 years of enlisted time (Air Force) and graduated 2015. There are certainly frustrations with USU and milmed in general, which are well documented here, but overall I wouldn't do anything differently. I am in my second year of GMO (Flight Surgeon) and I'll do one more before starting Derm. I have an awesome job and I'm happy with the path I've taken. Military medicine and it's GME are changing though, and I would probably be more uncomfortable about my options if I was just starting now. I agree with most of the others though, if you can go to Utah for free then it's a no brainer, but I would take USUHS over RVU for sure. Best of luck.

wesomr

I went to USUHS with right at 7 years of enlisted time (Air Force) and graduated 2015. There are certainly frustrations with USU and milmed in general, which are well documented here, but overall I wouldn't do anything differently. I am in my second year of GMO (Flight Surgeon) and I'll do one more before starting Derm. I have an awesome job and I'm happy with the path I've taken. Military medicine and it's GME are changing though, and I would probably be more uncomfortable about my options if I was just starting now. I agree with most of the others though, if you can go to Utah for free then it's a no brainer, but I would take USUHS over RVU for sure. Best of luck.

Thanks for your input. You say milmed is changing? Can you elaborate as to what ways?

 

[militaryPHYS]

A

wesomr


Thanks for your input. You say milmed is changing? Can you elaborate as to what ways?

The NDAA of 2017 and the future of Military Medicine - The Military Physician

 

[In4thelonghaul]

A

wesomr


Thanks for your input. You say milmed is changing? Can you elaborate as to what ways?

militaryPHYS posted a great link that reviews the whole topic really well. To summarize, military medicine is consolidating somewhat and focusing on operational medicine and direct support of the war fighter. If you're looking forward to a career in direct support of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines then there's no better time to join. If you're hoping to do a highly specific subspecialty that doesn't fit into that, then you might want to look elsewhere. There's still a lot to be worked out and things will invariably change over the next several years as we make this transition. If our success in implementing a new EMR is any indication, you'll likely be retired and buried at Arlington before we actually figure anything out.

 

[PressPforPi]

I'm just curious how you qualify for Voc Rehab, which requires you to have a disability rating, and plan to get into USUHS? Are you even still qualified physically?

 

[In4thelonghaul]

I'm just curious how you qualify for Voc Rehab, which requires you to have a disability rating, and plan to get into USUHS? Are you even still qualified physically?

You can get a waiver for just about anything if they want you in. You'll forfeit your disability to come back in, but I've seen some interesting things get waived for docs.

 

[PressPforPi]

You can get a waiver for just about anything if they want you in. You'll forfeit your disability to come back in, but I've seen some interesting things get waived for docs.

Yeah I guess I could see that if they're struggling. But from what I've seen recently, it seems like USUHS is getting fairly competitive as well.

Slightly off topic, but you're a flight doc? I'm a tech in a primary care clinic and our docs drool over the lifestyle y'all seem to have over there. Personally, I don't see how anyone can do primary care forever. Especially in the military. How does one even find the mental strength to PT? Maybe that's why they'll waive things easier these days.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

I'm just curious how you qualify for Voc Rehab, which requires you to have a disability rating, and plan to get into USUHS? Are you even still qualified physically?

Totally understandable, and I'm honestly not certain that I will get in. I know with absolute certainty that I can perform the duties of a doctor, but I do worry a little about some of the periods of formal training where they tend to do a lot of fitness tests. I'm more fit and tougher than most, however my body is aged. I did 5 years USMC and during a deployment an IED blew up my vehicle. Fortunately it didn't breach the floor so I still have my limbs but practically every joint aches. It's all aches and pains that I will have to deal with regardless of what I do. My doctors have actually told me that the best thing I can do is stay active and never get overweight and just deal with the pain because it's not going anywhere. So I do. That's more description than probably necessary, but I know what I'm capable of and I can guarantee that few have the same motivations to serve as me... and I've been told that practically everything is waiverable.

 

[PressPforPi]

Totally understandable, and I'm honestly not certain that I will get in. I know with absolute certainty that I can perform the duties of a doctor, but I do worry a little about some of the periods of formal training where they tend to do a lot of fitness tests. I'm more fit and tougher than most, however my body is aged. I did 5 years USMC and during a deployment an IED blew up my vehicle. Fortunately it didn't breach the floor so I still have my limbs but practically every joint aches. It's all aches and pains that I will have to deal with regardless of what I do. My doctors have actually told me that the best thing I can do is stay active and never get overweight and just deal with the pain because it's not going anywhere. So I do. That's more description than probably necessary, but I know what I'm capable of and I can guarantee that few have the same motivations to serve as me... and I've been told that practically everything is waiverable.

You seen like the kind of person that actually WANTS to be there. I hope you get your chance. Best of luck.

 

[In4thelonghaul]

Yeah I guess I could see that if they're struggling. But from what I've seen recently, it seems like USUHS is getting fairly competitive as well.

Slightly off topic, but you're a flight doc? I'm a tech in a primary care clinic and our docs drool over the lifestyle y'all seem to have over there. Personally, I don't see how anyone can do primary care forever. Especially in the military. How does one even find the mental strength to PT? Maybe that's why they'll waive things easier these days.

I guess maybe somewhere there are flight docs living an easy life, but we work hard in my clinic. I'm busy every minute of every day from 0630 to 1700 or so and then I'm working from home in the evenings and often on the weekends. Most primary care docs don't give their cell number to their patients. We do concierge medicine and I'm pretty much on call 24/7/365 for my pilots. I love my job, but it's not a lot of sitting around chilling. It's also not the hours of a surgeon or of residency, but in most places it's a myth that the flight docs have the easy life. Most of the Family Med docs who came to flight med feel that they are busier in flight med than they were in the family med clinic. As far as PT, a lot of people just ignore it until it's test time and that's not just the medical corps. I go in to the gym early before work because that's the only time I'll get.

 

[BombsAway]

As someone with a voc rehab contract signed, several OOS med school acceptances, as well as an unconditional acceptance to USUHS... I have thought this whole thing through and can probably help you out here.

Dude, your VRC is doing that thing where they aren't lying, but they are pulling your leg. They probably don't understand the admissions process and are just trying to steer you toward U of U because that's what's easiest for them. As if you had a choice.

Anyway, If you get into an OOS med school, they can just keep you on their roster and nothing changes. That's what my VRC (decent human. actually cares about her veterans) is doing. They are not required to send you to a VRC in the new state, that's just one of the options available to them. In my case, if my VRC doesn't personally know the VRC in whatever state I choose, she's keeping me on her books. If she does know them, she'll call and see if they're down with the plan. However, that's just being polite. Even if you get transferred to a new state it is MUCH more work for them to revoke your contract than it is to just let it ride and complain about it. VA employees LOVE complaining so really you're doing them a favor.

With that cleared up, don't rejoin the military unless you're out of your mind committed to a certain niche you cannot fill outside the military. I ran a spreadsheet and calculated a 3million dollar lifetime earnings loss by going to usuhs vs voc rehab civilian route. So I have to decide: is is worth 3mil for the opportunity to do hoodrat **** with my friends at an FST in Jalalabad or wherever? Being one of the difference makers that keeps a soldier alive in that "golden hour" is pretty priceless in my opinion, having been a soldier blown up and treated at an FST. However, I could still work at the VA, or as a civilian at a MTF, or... etc. Lots of options to serve the military patient population. Currently struggling with the choice.

About the money in school with family. In the words of Rick Sanchez, don't even trip dog. Your tuition is paid for, you get a small stipend, and you're welcome to borrow some money for cost of living. For example, just borrow enough to cover on budget item, let's say rent, each year. That would reduce your financial stress, and put you at <40k in loans upon graduation. That number is delightfully manageable with a civilian physician salary in any specialty.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

As someone with a voc rehab contract signed, several OOS med school acceptances, as well as an unconditional acceptance to USUHS... I have thought this whole thing through and can probably help you out here.

Dude, your VRC is doing that thing where they aren't lying, but they are pulling your leg. They probably don't understand the admissions process and are just trying to steer you toward U of U because that's what's easiest for them. As if you had a choice.

Anyway, If you get into an OOS med school, they can just keep you on their roster and nothing changes. That's what my VRC (decent human. actually cares about her veterans) is doing. They are not required to send you to a VRC in the new state, that's just one of the options available to them. In my case, if my VRC doesn't personally know the VRC in whatever state I choose, she's keeping me on her books. If she does know them, she'll call and see if they're down with the plan. However, that's just being polite. Even if you get transferred to a new state it is MUCH more work for them to revoke your contract than it is to just let it ride and complain about it. VA employees LOVE complaining so really you're doing them a favor.

With that cleared up, don't rejoin the military unless you're out of your mind committed to a certain niche you cannot fill outside the military. I ran a spreadsheet and calculated a 3million dollar lifetime earnings loss by going to usuhs vs voc rehab civilian route. So I have to decide: is is worth 3mil for the opportunity to do hoodrat **** with my friends at an FST in Jalalabad or wherever? Being one of the difference makers that keeps a soldier alive in that "golden hour" is pretty priceless in my opinion, having been a soldier blown up and treated at an FST. However, I could still work at the VA, or as a civilian at a MTF, or... etc. Lots of options to serve the military patient population. Currently struggling with the choice.

About the money in school with family. In the words of Rick Sanchez, don't even trip dog. Your tuition is paid for, you get a small stipend, and you're welcome to borrow some money for cost of living. For example, just borrow enough to cover on budget item, let's say rent, each year. That would reduce your financial stress, and put you at <40k in loans upon graduation. That number is delightfully manageable with a civilian physician salary in any specialty.

This is huge. Thanks for the response. I can’t beleive somebody else is actually in the same boat.

I’ve also spent quite a bit of time and estimated close to 3 million difference in lifetime pay. I’ve also been learning that, like you said, the education plan I signed is more permanent than I realized. So this is all great news and I’m feeling way better if I need to go to an OOS school.

I do have one question in regard to your comment about borrowing money for rent. Let’s consider the situation at my state school where tuition is $38,000/yr and the CoA is $60,000/yr. So that means I could potentially borrow up to $23,000/yr right? Is there anything that would lower or reduce that borrowable amount, that you know of? I’ve recently learned that my understanding of how CoA was wrong so I’m realizing that money probably won’t be quite as tight as it seemed. And yeah $40,000 in total loans for medical school and living expenses is completely incredible...

 

[Cooperd0g]

@BombsAway for the win with insightful input. @nonTradwithPS I would try and borrow the absolute minimum. $40k sounds manageable, just don't let it accidentally balloon because "what's another $20k?" happened every year.

 

[grave_robber]

This is huge. Thanks for the response. I can’t beleive somebody else is actually in the same boat.

I’ve also spent quite a bit of time and estimated close to 3 million difference in lifetime pay. I’ve also been learning that, like you said, the education plan I signed is more permanent than I realized. So this is all great news and I’m feeling way better if I need to go to an OOS school.

I do have one question in regard to your comment about borrowing money for rent. Let’s consider the situation at my state school where tuition is $38,000/yr and the CoA is $60,000/yr. So that means I could potentially borrow up to $23,000/yr right? Is there anything that would lower or reduce that borrowable amount, that you know of? I’ve recently learned that my understanding of how CoA was wrong so I’m realizing that money probably won’t be quite as tight as it seemed. And yeah $40,000 in total loans for medical school and living expenses is completely incredible...

I am HPSP with a large family and married to a stay-at-home mom. I thought I would be able to supplement my HPSP $ with some minimal student loans. I was shocked to find out that I am eligible for ZERO dollars in loans, because my stipend + reimbursed tuition is greater than the CoA (I live in a very low cost-of-living area, so CoA is low). I have asked around, and it seems that this is different from school to school, with some med schools being very liberal in what they'll allow you to borrow while others (like mine) are very strict about it. So while I would say that your numbers sound right (being able to borrow the difference in tuition and CoA), I would ask the school financial aid office on interview day. Most schools are familiar enough with all the military stuff to give you a straight answer.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

I am HPSP with a large family and married to a stay-at-home mom. I thought I would be able to supplement my HPSP $ with some minimal student loans. I was shocked to find out that I am eligible for ZERO dollars in loans, because my stipend + reimbursed tuition is greater than the CoA (I live in a very low cost-of-living area, so CoA is low). I have asked around, and it seems that this is different from school to school, with some med schools being very liberal in what they'll allow you to borrow while others (like mine) are very strict about it. So while I would say that your numbers sound right (being able to borrow the difference in tuition and CoA), I would ask the school financial aid office on interview day. Most schools are familiar enough with all the military stuff to give you a straight answer.

Thanks for the response. That’s exactly what I was afraid would happen. I’m glad I’ve learned what I have because CoA lending will definitely be a consideration of where I go. Stay the course.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Wait. You want a higher cost of living so you'll spend more???!

 

[grave_robber]

Wait. You want a higher cost of living so you'll spend more???!

Um, kinda, I guess. ??? To spend more and get into more debt? Yes (in my case, more debt than $0). But no, no one wants a higher cost of living, per se. I specifically chose my school because of the lower cost of living so the HPSP stipend (& GI Bill) would have more buying power. What I am referring to is the fact that CoA is based on cost of living, thus lower CoL (a good thing) = lower CoA (maybe a good thing) = lower federal loans available to you as a student (not necessarily a good thing in all cases). It's something that people need to be to be aware of, especially non-traditional applicants with families, and it's important to understand how the specific schools plug the military funds into those calculations.

For anyone out there that doesn't know, CoA ("Cost of attendance") is not an individualized calculation. It is based on what it would cost a single, childless, petless student to attend med school in that area, living in a minimalistic one-bedroom apartment close to the school and brown-bagging/cooking at home for all your meals.