Vaccine hesitancy

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Most of us in our group of doctors and PAs have gotten the COVID vaccine but some are hesitant and want to wait for long term data. What do you think of those who haven’t gotten the vaccine? Do you respect their decision and lay off, or do you try to convince them to get it? I know most of us on here are probably on board with the vaccination but curious to hear about the other side of this.
 
I mean....there's almost a year and a half of study data from the original cohort, and about 6 months of real world data which is about the limit for when you'd expect to see a vaccine side effect. I think wanting to see "more data" than that just shows a misunderstanding of how vaccine adverse events work and how vaccines themselves work. The hesitation is almost completely isolated to vaccines as well--no one wants a year more data on a cancer drug or cardiac medication despite a much higher chance of that post market research will show those medications are useless or harmful.

The only thing that makes me not judge healthcare workers who are vaccine hesitant more harshly is that I know that as a society we've been bombarded for several decades with (completely made up) anti-vax propaganda. But that doesn't make the concerns legitimate, and I still roll my eyes at those "waiting for more data".
 
ERCAT said:
Most of us in our group of doctors and PAs have gotten the COVID vaccine but some are hesitant and want to wait for long term data. What do you think of those who haven’t gotten the vaccine?
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Their bodies, their decision. I couldn't care less.

ERCAT said:
Do you respect their decision and lay off, or do you try to convince them to get it?
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I respect any decision from anyone that's willing to accept the full consequences of that decision.

ERCAT said:
...do you try to convince them to get it?
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No. That would be a waste of time

The only thing I say, when I'm asked is, "I had the shot 6 months ago, my wife and kids had it, my parents, in-laws, nieces and nephews all had it. And we're all fine." Then, when they babble something about "long term consequences" "Trump's jab" and "rearranging your DNA," that's when I lose interest.
 
bravotwozero said:
My hospital system mandated the covid vaccine, so anyone who had an issue with it either got fired or left. Fine with me. For once, I actually agree with admin on a hospital policy.
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Wow! That's some serious precedence they have set. I hope they do the same for the flu vaccine, otherwise it's an inconsistent policy and could be legally challenged.
 
This is something, over time, natural selection will take care of
 
bravotwozero said:
Yes they do. Already got legally challenged, judge threw out the case without even a trial.
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Assuming y'all are the ones who made the news about this, I enjoyed reading the judge's full order on that case.
 
“Federal Court Upholds Employer’s COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate“

www.natlawreview.com

Federal Court Upholds Employer’s COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate

On June 12, 2021, a federal District Court in Texas in Bridges, et al v. Houston Methodist Hospital et al, Docket No. 4:21-cv-01774 (S.D. Tex. Jun 01, 2021) dismissed a case challenging a hospital’s mandatory COVID-19 vaccination policy for employees. This is the first court opinion addressing...
www.natlawreview.com www.natlawreview.com
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Assuming y'all are the ones who made the news about this, I enjoyed reading the judge's full order on that case.
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The judge's order was clear and concise, but I didn't find it especially spicy or "zinger-ish". Actually, I thought that the judge honed in rather succinctly on the plaintiff just, pretty plainly, being, legally, off-target.
 
Apollyon said:
The judge's order was clear and concise, but I didn't find it especially spicy or "zinger-ish". Actually, I thought that the judge honed in rather succinctly on the plaintiff just, pretty plainly, being, legally, off-target.
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I'm against Vaccine mandates, but I agree the Plaintiff did a poor job of arguing their case. I expect many more of these cases, and likely will get to the Supreme Court eventually.
 
I mean its their right to decline obviously, but it annoys me when people say things like "I'm waiting for more data". No you aren't. If you were scrutinizing the data, you would have gotten vaccinated. People just say that because its the answer that makes them look less scientifically illiterate. We have tons of data to show this vaccine is safe and highly effective. Unfortunately, some medical workers are more willing to believe Facebook over the New England Journal of Medicine. But they don't want to say that, so they say they are "waiting for more data".

That being said, there are very real reasons why someone may choose not to get vaccinated. I know of someone with anaphylaxis to other past vaccinations who still tried and went into anaphylaxis. Not everyone can get vaccinated. I get that. IDK how you could mandate it for that very reason. In some select group, the risk of the vaccine will be worse.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
I mean its their right to decline obviously, but it annoys me when people say things like "I'm waiting for more data". No you aren't. If you were scrutinizing the data, you would have gotten vaccinated. People just say that because its the answer that makes them look less scientifically illiterate. We have tons of data to show this vaccine is safe and highly effective. Unfortunately, some medical workers are more willing to believe Facebook over the New England Journal of Medicine. But they don't want to say that, so they say they are "waiting for more data".

That being said, there are very real reasons why someone may choose not to get vaccinated. I know of someone with anaphylaxis to other past vaccinations who still tried and went into anaphylaxis. Not everyone can get vaccinated. I get that.
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My issue has nothing to do with long-term safety. I already had COVID (with good antibody response), so any benefit is marginal at a significant risk of getting sick enough from the vaccine for days/weeks and missing work.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
I mean its their right to decline obviously, but it annoys me when people say things like "I'm waiting for more data". No you aren't. If you were scrutinizing the data, you would have gotten vaccinated. People just say that because its the answer that makes them look less scientifically illiterate. We have tons of data to show this vaccine is safe and highly effective. Unfortunately, some medical workers are more willing to believe Facebook over the New England Journal of Medicine. But they don't want to say that, so they say they are "waiting for more data".

That being said, there are very real reasons why someone may choose not to get vaccinated. I know of someone with anaphylaxis to other past vaccinations who still tried and went into anaphylaxis. Not everyone can get vaccinated. I get that. IDK how you could mandate it for that very reason. In some select group, the risk of the vaccine will be worse.
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The institution in question here does allow for exceptions like the one you mention - those people with valid reasons got waivers.
 
Apollyon said:
The judge's order was clear and concise, but I didn't find it especially spicy or "zinger-ish". Actually, I thought that the judge honed in rather succinctly on the plaintiff just, pretty plainly, being, legally, off-target.
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Whenever a judge calls one of the plantiff's argument "reprehensible", I enjoy it.
 
GeneralVeers said:
My issue has nothing to do with long-term safety. I already had COVID (with good antibody response), so any benefit is marginal at a significant risk of getting sick enough from the vaccine for days/weeks and missing work.
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Seems reasonable for the short term, I guess the length of immunity is really the only question. We know the immunity from the vaccine mounts a longer immune response, we just don't exactly know how long. I'm sure we will see boosters that will extend it in the near future. I didn't have COVID, but if I did, I probably would have chosen to get vaccinated 3-6 months later, but that's just me.
 
This is basically a nonissue. The Supreme Court already ruled in 1905 that States and public institutions like the schools and military can mandate vaccines for entry or employment. No federal laws prevents private institutions from requiring vaccines.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Did one of them become a judge and I missed it?
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Most judges in the US are elected*, and I was equating elected officials. Your sarcasm is, ever so slightly, quizzical. And I did qualify them as being in Congress.

* I might be wrong, but, a significant number are elected vs appointed. Might not be "most".
 
Apollyon said:
Most judges in the US are elected*, and I was equating elected officials. Your sarcasm is, ever so slightly, quizzical. And I did qualify them as being in Congress.

* I might be wrong, but, a significant number are elected vs appointed. Might not be "most".
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en.m.wikipedia.org

Lynn Hughes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Apollyon said:
I don't know why you're perseverating on this. Judge Hughes was appointed, as he's Federal. Got it. No sarcasm there. In the words of an unnamed Stormtrooper, "Move along. Move along."
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I'll make it simple: "The judge wrote that the plaintiff's statement was "reprehensible". But, among elected officials, who should be held to a higher standard, they say reprehensible things seemingly weekly".
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Seems reasonable for the short term, I guess the length of immunity is really the only question. We know the immunity from the vaccine mounts a longer immune response, we just don't exactly know how long. I'm sure we will see boosters that will extend it in the near future. I didn't have COVID, but if I did, I probably would have chosen to get vaccinated 3-6 months later, but that's just me.
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It should be the same as flu. Get it during peak season. Influenza immunity lasts 6-9 months. I still don't know why we are treating this vaccine in any different manner than influenza. This nonsense of having to get a booster every 3-6 months for a virus with a > 99% survival rate is crazy.
 
A family member used to work for Merck in vaccine R&D.
She was quick to point out that its the same sort of muggles who were anti-vax are now asking waitstaff/managers if "everyone in the [restaurant, etc] has been VACCINATED, for their safety and peace of mind.

Reason number 482311 why its okay to hate the muggles. They just love to be reactive.
 
GeneralVeers said:
It should be the same as flu. Get it during peak season. Influenza immunity lasts 6-9 months. I still don't know why we are treating this vaccine in any different manner than influenza. This nonsense of having to get a booster every 3-6 months for a virus with a > 99% survival rate is crazy.
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When I worked for UPMC, they also gave the option to just not work during flu season (like hurricane season). The problem with the COVID is that, so far, there isn't a season.
 
Can someone please unplug SDN and then plug it back in so we can get back the blue bolded text to let me know when there's a new reply to a thread ?

Pleeeease?
 
GeneralVeers said:
It should be the same as flu. Get it during peak season. Influenza immunity lasts 6-9 months. I still don't know why we are treating this vaccine in any different manner than influenza. This nonsense of having to get a booster every 3-6 months for a virus with a > 99% survival rate is crazy.
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Because flu hasn’t killed 600k people in a little over a year. This is a much more deadly virus compared to the flu. And while I agree that most of us are healthy and will be just fine, some of our colleagues are not. And neither are our patients. And should we infect them, they may not have the same odds of a good outcome.

I don’t understand the flu comparison. I’ve seen old people get sick from the flu. I’ve never seen people lose limbs from it. Stay in the ICU for weeks on ecmo. Watched healthcare workers die from it. Both the objective and subjective assessment of COVID should lead one to realise this isn’t the usual flu.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Because flu hasn’t killed 600k people in a little over a year. This is a much more deadly virus compared to the flu. And while I agree that most of us are healthy and will be just fine, some of our colleagues are not. And neither are our patients. And should we infect them, they may not have the same odds of a good outcome.

I don’t understand the flu comparison. I’ve seen old people get sick from the flu. I’ve never seen people lose limbs from it. Stay in the ICU for weeks on ecmo. Watched healthcare workers die from it. Both the objective and subjective assessment of COVID should lead one to realise this isn’t the usual flu.
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It's only deadlier than the flu because we have a vaccine for the flu. Now we have vaccines for both. It's reasonable to expect that the death rate will be equivalent or less.

If the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce the death rate to flu levels......then what's the point of the vaccine?
 
There’s a couple of these studies that looked at the severity of lung cts in correlation to changes on brain MRI for covid. Here is a link to one:

Brain and Lung Imaging Correlation in Patients with COVID-19: Could the Severity of Lung Disease Reflect the Prevalence of Acute Abnormalities on Neuroimaging? A Global Multicenter Observational Study

PURPOSE: Our aim was to study the association between abnormal findings on chest and brain imaging in patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) and neurologic symptoms. MATERIALS AND METHODS: In this retrospective, international multicenter study, we reviewed the electronic medical...
www.ajnr.org www.ajnr.org

I usually ask people: “show me one study that shows an abundant number of abnormal brain mris or chest cts after getting any vaccine. I’d say I’d wait but they don’t exist.”

This virus can literally affect your goddamn brain and people want the “natural immunity.” F that jive. Give me the artificial crap! Guaranteed we’re gonna see long term effects of this virus we don’t know about yet.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Seems reasonable for the short term, I guess the length of immunity is really the only question. We know the immunity from the vaccine mounts a longer immune response, we just don't exactly know how long. I'm sure we will see boosters that will extend it in the near future. I didn't have COVID, but if I did, I probably would have chosen to get vaccinated 3-6 months later, but that's just me.
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Do We KNOW the vaccine mounts a longer response? What we know has changed quite often over the last 18 months. I was just reading a paper regarding bone marrow testing ( small numbers I know) that showed a majority of post infection subjects have consistent memory b cells levels at 8 months and and a year...suggesting long term immunity. Some subjects didn't have the same response and probably need a vaccine or booster. The Cleveland clinic looked at infections in employees who were vaccinated, unvaccinated, and recovered from infection. No reinfections in prior infection group. They concluded those that recovered may not benefit from a vaccine.
The idea of a vaccine on top of acquired immunity offering the most robust defense may be entirely true, but a prior infection in an immunocompetent person may prove to be sufficient. I expect we will see large number analysis in the future that will modify what we KNOW.
I had covid last dec....wasn't trying to get it like the old school chicken pox parties, but got it and recovered before vaccine was available...it wasn't an antivaccine or wait for data decision. I would have taken the vaccine before infection if I had that chance. I think the immune system needs to be given a little more credit than it's has been given up til now.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
It's only deadlier than the flu because we have a vaccine for the flu. Now we have vaccines for both. It's reasonable to expect that the death rate will be equivalent or less.

If the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce the death rate to flu levels......then what's the point of the vaccine?
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I dont think thats true. An unvaccinated patient that gets covid has both a higher mortality, and higher morbidity, than an unvaccinated patient that gets influenza.
The good thing is, the covid vaccine seemingly provides considerable more protection than the influenza vaccine does.
 
embassyrow said:
Do We KNOW the vaccine mounts a longer response? What we know has changed quite often over the last 18 months. I was just reading a paper regarding bone marrow testing ( small numbers I know) that showed a majority of post infection subjects have consistent memory b cells levels at 8 months and and a year...suggesting long term immunity. Some subjects didn't have the same response and probably need a vaccine or booster. The Cleveland clinic looked at infections in employees who were vaccinated, unvaccinated, and recovered from infection. No reinfections in prior infection group. They concluded those that recovered may not benefit from a vaccine.
The idea of a vaccine on top of acquired immunity offering the most robust defense may be entirely true, but a prior infection in an immunocompetent person may prove to be sufficient. I expect we will see large number analysis in the future that will modify what we KNOW.
I had covid last dec....wasn't trying to get it like the old school chicken pox parties, but got it and recovered before vaccine was available...it wasn't an antivaccine or wait for data decision. I would have taken the vaccine before infection if I had that chance. I think the immune system needs to be given a little more credit than it's has been given up til now.
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My understanding is the antibody response is more robust (vax vs natural) and has more cross reactivity towards variants. How that plays out in real world data, I dont know.
 
Vaccine hesitancy regarding COVID for HCWs isn't a thing in June 2021. There's the vaccinated, the people who already had COVID (and will get COVID again barring vaccination), and the people that prize in-group signifiers over the health of their community.
 
Let's also not forget what a second viral wave can do an unvaccinated heavily dense population. India went from 13k new cases to 400k in less than 2wks , just two months ago. Watching your loved one tossed into large pile of burning dead bodies is probably something that should only happen in Hollywood movies.

Reminds me of NYC in early 2020 with trucks filled with frozen dead bodies and nowhere to bury them.
 
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