Vaccine mandates

[Matty44]

From their own website

See, that first point there isn't actually accurate. The rate of heart inflammation the researchers reported isn't the hospitalization rate, its just the rate they think cardiac events happened at.

What matters is cardiac event rate of the vaccine versus cardiac event rate from catching COVID.

The highest risk group at 162 cardiac events per 1 million vaccinated people. Myocarditis after COVID infection is around 561 per million at the lowest for teenaged boys.

So the vaccine is still 3.4X less likely to cause this than catching COVID is.

We don't even need to try to prove how unscientific VAERS is.

Ok, except you’re comparing a potential risk of getting covid and THEN getting myocarditis, with a self inflicted risk of getting a shot that can result in myocarditis. We’ve had 44 million cases of covid in the US, aka 13% of the population. So if 13% of teenage boys get covid and have a risk of 561/million for a CAE, that’s less total incidents than if you vaccinate 100% of teenage boys and 162/million have a cardiac adverse event.

Don’t we present parents with the risks/benefits of certain medical procedures and then let them decide what they want for their kids? Do you force regional on a pt if they refuse, even if you know they have less chance for a bad outcome with regional?

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[maxxor]

Ok, except you’re comparing a potential risk of getting covid and THEN getting myocarditis, with a self inflicted risk of getting a shot that can result in myocarditis. We’ve had 44 million cases of covid in the US, aka 13% of the population. So if 13% of teenage boys get covid and have a risk of 561/million for a CAE, that’s less total incidents than if you vaccinate 100% of teenage boys and 162/million have a cardiac adverse event.

Don’t we present parents with the risks/benefits of certain medical procedures and then let them decide what they want for their kids? Do you force regional on a pt if they refuse, even if you know they have less chance for a bad outcome with regional?

On a long enough timescale, the risk of getting covid is 100%

 

[deleted697535]

Please explain how being unvaccinated really leads to REAL increased risk of harm for others, instead of just stating it as a foregone conclusion.

Are you for real? Were you dropped on your head or something?

Hospitals are full to bursting, surgeries have stopped, cancer diagnosis is way down, triage has begun, resources are running out, do you know what ecmo is? ecmo for 60 days is a vast resource which can be used elsewhere. Have you ever done a lung transplant on a covid pt?

 

[IMGASMD]

Ok, except you’re comparing a potential risk of getting covid and THEN getting myocarditis, with a self inflicted risk of getting a shot that can result in myocarditis. We’ve had 44 million cases of covid in the US, aka 13% of the population. So if 13% of teenage boys get covid and have a risk of 561/million for a CAE, that’s less total incidents than if you vaccinate 100% of teenage boys and 162/million have a cardiac adverse event.

Don’t we present parents with the risks/benefits of certain medical procedures and then let them decide what they want for their kids? Do you force regional on a pt if they refuse, even if you know they have less chance for a bad outcome with regional?

I find this discussion a little misguided.

Why are we all of sudden talking about mandatory vaccination for kids? If we actually achieved whatever the cut off is for reach herd immunity, then there wouldn’t be any mandatory of anything.

Secondly, you and I and the rest of the board knows that your average parents will not and cannot understand the nuances that we are arguing about.

Will I be vaccinating my young kid? I honestly don’t know, it’s a discussion with my SO and our pediatrician. I don’t and won’t pretend I know the all the answers especially for other peoples’ kids.

 

[vector2]

@Matty44 The risk of death from pertussis is somewhere between 4 to 13 per 1,000,000. Do you skip pertussis vaccination for your kids too?

 

[IMGASMD]

Are you for real? Were you dropped on your head or something?

Hospitals are full to bursting, surgeries have stopped, cancer diagnosis is way down, triage has begun, resources are running out, do you know what ecmo is? ecmo for 60 days is a vast resource which can be used elsewhere. Have you ever done a lung transplant on a covid pt?

That just sound like a ****ing **** show from the beginning to end. I can’t even imagining if this person was an anti-vaxer

 

[Matty44]

Are you for real? Were you dropped on your head or something?

Hospitals are full to bursting, surgeries have stopped, cancer diagnosis is way down, triage has begun, resources are running out, do you know what ecmo is? ecmo for 60 days is a vast resource which can be used elsewhere. Have you ever done a lung transplant on a covid pt?

Thanks for responding with data and evidence instead of fear tactics. 🙄

 

[Matty44]

I find this discussion a little misguided.

Why are we all of sudden talking about mandatory vaccination for kids? If we actually achieved whatever the cut off is for reach herd immunity, then there wouldn’t be any mandatory of anything.

Secondly, you and I and the rest of the board knows that your average parents will not and cannot understand the nuances that we are arguing about.

Will I be vaccinating my young kid? I honestly don’t know, it’s a discussion with my SO and our pediatrician. I don’t and won’t pretend I know the all the answers especially for other peoples’ kids.

I’m talking about it cause there’s not much to talk about with adults being vaccinated, cause obviously that’s the right decision. But for children, it’s not so cut and dry, even though many are trying to make it as such. And I fully anticipate having to be faced with mandatory vaccinations for my young kids sometime in the not too distant future, and I haven’t decided what we’ll do when we are faced with that choice. And when people feel so strongly like they DO know the answer for other people’s kids, it puts our society in a bad spot.

 

[IMGASMD]

I’m talking about it cause there’s not much to talk about with adults being vaccinated, cause obviously that’s the right decision. But for children, it’s not so cut and dry, even though many are trying to make it as such. And I fully anticipate having to be faced with mandatory vaccinations for my young kids sometime in the not too distant future, and I haven’t decided what we’ll do when we are faced with that choice. And when people feel so strongly like they DO know the answer for other people’s kids, it puts our society in a bad spot.

You’re doing the exact same thing that you accused of another poster, scare tactic; slippery slope argument.

We are sooooo far behind in mandatory anything compare to other western countries. If the adults actually set an example for all the kids….. Then we’d be in a better place.

 

[Matty44]

@Matty44 The risk of death from pertussis is somewhere between 4 to 13 per 1,000,000. Do you skip pertussis vaccination for your kids too?

No, but the pertussis vaccine has been around for 100+ years. Maybe I’ll feel more comfortable vaccinating a 7 year old once this vaccine has been around for a few years and we have more long term data, but with the risk so ridiculously low for a kid under 10, why would I rush to vaccinate them with a vaccine that’s been around for less than a year? It’s at the very least a reasonable discussion to have, but unfortunately you got people who berate you with fear tactics about lung transplants and overflowing ICUs instead of talking about data and actual statistical risks for particular subsets of the population.

 

[Matty44]

You’re doing the exact same thing that you accused of another poster, scare tactic; slippery slope argument.

We are sooooo far behind in mandatory anything compare to other western countries. If the adults actually set an example for all the kids….. Then we’d be in a better place.

Lol, yeah exactly the same. I posted a bunch of data and I said it’s not clear to me if we need to vaccinate young children. And if it becomes mandatory for middle school or something, is it necessarily the right thing to do. It’s not unrealistic to think that there will be more mandates the longer things progress.

 

[nimbus]

COVID has killed 0.2% of the entire US population in the past 18months. Judging by this thread, there’s still a lot more to come.

 

[vector2]

No, but the pertussis vaccine has been around for 100+ years. Maybe I’ll feel more comfortable vaccinating a 7 year old once this vaccine has been around for a few years and we have more long term data, but with the risk so ridiculously low for a kid under 10, why would I rush to vaccinate them with a vaccine that’s been around for less than a year? It’s at the very least a reasonable discussion to have, but unfortunately you got people who berate you with fear tactics about lung transplants and overflowing ICUs instead of talking about data and actual statistical risks for particular subsets of the population.

The nature of vaccination doesn't just revolve around the the fact that the risk might be low for the individual. Even if the mortality is low for children, vaccination is how you ensure that herd immunity develops rather than having another 80 million minors be a reservoir for future mutation and variants, plus a vector to transmit the disease to more vulnerable children and adults.

Also, the sentiment to wait until the vaccine "has been around a few years" is horribly flawed. If everyone adopted that logic then no kids would actually get the vaccine. It took some time for the varicella vaccine to really get widespread adoption, but if it had been adopted in a widespread fashion immediately it would've prevented 10,000 hospitalizations a year for almost a decade.

 

[deleted697535]

COVID has killed 0.2% of the entire US population in the past 18months. Judging by this thread, there’s still a lot more to come.

The only partiality good thing about covid right now is it is selecting out the right folk to get rid of... Some on this thread even! Covid could make America great again yet...

 

[deleted126335]

The only partiality good thing about covid right now is it is selecting out the right folk to get rid of... Some on this thread even! Covid could make America great again yet...

Danger Will Robinson.

 

[deleted697535]

Danger Will Robinson.

What do you mean?
I had to google the phrase btw...

 

[GaseousClay]

The only partiality good thing about covid right now is it is selecting out the right folk to get rid of... Some on this thread even! Covid could make America great again yet...

what a stupid thing to say but not surprising from a far left elitist. so 31% of all deaths from covid are hispanic and blacks a large amount who are unvaccinated, is that who you are referring to as well? Maybe clarify your racism by saying selecting out only the white people so you don't get in trouble. Since most people are lefties here they won't call you out and will attack me as some maga nut im sure.

 

[Matty44]

The nature of vaccination doesn't just revolve around the the fact that the risk might be low for the individual. Even if the mortality is low for children, vaccination is how you ensure that herd immunity develops rather than having another 80 million minors be a reservoir for future mutation and variants, plus a vector to transmit the disease to more vulnerable children and adults.

Also, the sentiment to wait until the vaccine "has been around a few years" is horribly flawed. If everyone adopted that logic then no kids would actually get the vaccine. It took some time for the varicella vaccine to really get widespread adoption, but if it had been adopted in a widespread fashion immediately it would've prevented 10,000 hospitalizations a year for almost a decade.

This is all truly spoken like a person with no kids...

Maybe I'm just a particularly selfish parent, but when I make a decision for my child, I'm usually trying to do what I think is best for my kid, and not for the greater good of society. And when the risk of death to my otherwise healthy child is literally about 0, and the risk of hospitalization is equivalent to the risk we take every time we get in a car, it should be perfectly understandable that I may not want to give a very new vaccine, and a very novel type of vaccine at that, to my child for a novel virus that we are still learning about. Just the uncertainty and newness alone is reason enough in my mind for someone to think twice about giving a vaccine to their kid who is as at incredibly minimal risk. Not to mention that there have been concerns of myocarditis. And perhaps natural immunity is just as good as vaccination? We just don't know for sure yet. I would think most people in our field would be well versed in risk assessment, and its surprising to me that you can't see how people can have concerns (no matter how minor) considering the miniscule risk to kids.

Elderly people, no question.
Adults over 30, for sure.
20 somethings and kids with pre-existing conditions, yup.
Healthy college students,.....probably, but I can understand if they don't want to?
Healthy kids under 18? Up to the parents completely, whatever you feel comfortable with.

What's so difficult about that approach for you?

 

[deleted697535]

what a stupid thing to say but not surprising from a far left elitist. so 31% of all deaths from covid are hispanic and blacks a large amount who are unvaccinated, is that who you are referring to as well? Maybe clarify your racism by saying selecting out only the white people so you don't get in trouble. Since most people are lefties here they won't call you out and will attack me as some maga nut im sure.

I literally parody maga in my post and you think im racist, elitist? You think my post means that im referring to the black and hispanic deaths? Seriously?
Remember i parody maga?

far left?

Do you know what each of these terms mean?
Im probably the least one of all these terms you could ever meet but ok, good luck

 

[Matty44]

The only partiality good thing about covid right now is it is selecting out the right folk to get rid of... Some on this thread even! Covid could make America great again yet...

You sound like Margaret Sanger. Sheesh.

 

[vector2]

This is all truly spoken like a person with no kids...

Maybe I'm just a particularly selfish parent, but when I make a decision for my child, I'm usually trying to do what I think is best for my kid, and not for the greater good of society. And when the risk of death to my otherwise healthy child is literally about 0, and the risk of hospitalization is equivalent to the risk we take every time we get in a car, it should be perfectly understandable that I may not want to give a very new vaccine, and a very novel type of vaccine at that, to my child for a novel virus that we are still learning about. Just the uncertainty and newness alone is reason enough in my mind for someone to think twice about giving a vaccine to their kid who is as at incredibly minimal risk. Not to mention that there have been concerns of myocarditis. And perhaps natural immunity is just as good as vaccination? We just don't know for sure yet. I would think most people in our field would be well versed in risk assessment, and its surprising to me that you can't see how people can have concerns (no matter how minor) considering the miniscule risk to kids.

Elderly people, no question.
Adults over 30, for sure.
20 somethings and kids with pre-existing conditions, yup.
Healthy college students,.....probably, but I can understand if they don't want to?
Healthy kids under 18? Up to the parents completely, whatever you feel comfortable with.

What's so difficult about that approach for you?

Your presumption is wrong, as usual. My disappointment is actually that my kid is so young that the studies of the vaccine is his age group are going to be the last whose results actually get published, and thus his protection is delayed.

Concerns about novelty do have some foundation, especially as the age group gets younger and risk of mortality goes down. But mortality doesn't tell the whole story, either.

"But on rare occasions — one estimate1 puts it at around one case in 1,000, although it could be even lower — kids who’ve experienced even mild infections can later develop a sometimes deadly condition called multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C). "

COVID vaccines and kids: five questions as trials begin

As the first clinical trials in young children start, here’s what scientists want to know.

www.nature.com

You combine those figures with the growing consensus among many IDs and epidemiologists that delta replicates so quickly and has an r0 value high enough that risk of exposure for everyone is guaranteed at some point given enough time.....and the reason to get your kid vaccinated can be both for selfish reasons and the fact that, you know, you actually care about public health and the society you live in.

 

[Matty44]

You seem to be missing my point in all this, as usual. What you believe is best for your child happens to line up with what you believe is best for society, but if they weren’t aligned, would you do right (in your mind) by your kid or by society? If people judge the risk of the vaccine to their kids as worse than the risk of covid, that’s their choice. And if the 60 year old smoker does the same, that’s also their choice. That’s a more objectively unwise person compared to the parent who will opt to not vaccinate their 3 year old in 2022.

Ultimately it comes down to people choosing between two very low risk options. And when you are comparing 0.01% risk of A versus 0.005% risk of B, the state (and society as a whole) should back off and mind their own business. Especially when it really doesn’t affect most other people who have every chance to vaccinate and jog/drive/sleep in their N95s if they want to.

 

[vector2]

You seem to be missing my point in all this, as usual. What you believe is best for your child happens to line up with what you believe is best for society, but if they weren’t aligned, would you do right (in your mind) by your kid or by society? If people judge the risk of the vaccine to their kids as worse than the risk of covid, that’s their choice. And if the 60 year old smoker does the same, that’s also their choice. That’s a more objectively unwise person compared to the parent who will opt to not vaccinate their 3 year old in 2022.

Ultimately it comes down to people choosing between two very low risk options. And when you are comparing 0.01% risk of A versus 0.005% risk of B, the state (and society as a whole) should back off and mind their own business. Especially when it really doesn’t affect most other people who have every chance to vaccinate and jog/drive/sleep in their N95s if they want to.

Nah, you're missing the point, in that the laymen out there who are judging the risk of the vaccine as worse than the risk of covid are just plain wrong. Their "opinion" essentially means fk-all when we look at the actual data not just on mortality (which is the thing you're perseverating on), but also morbidity.

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"The rate of children with coronavirus who end up hospitalized is 49.7 per 100,000 children as of August 14, with the highest rate of hospitalizations among kids under the age of 4 (69%) followed by teens between the ages of 12-17 (64%).
.
Unvaccinated teenagers are nearly 10 times more likely to be hospitalized compared to their unvaccinated peers, according to CDC data collected from hospitals in 14 states in July.
"

Hospitalizations Associated with COVID-19 Among Children...

COVID-19–associated hospitalization rates among children and adolescents increased with the Delta variant.

www.cdc.gov

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Furthermore, it's not just kids with pre-existing conditions who are getting hospitalized:

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"Almost half -- 46.4% -- of children hospitalized with Covid-19 between March 2020 and June 2021 had no known underlying condition, according to CDC data from almost 100 US counties.

And the Delta variant is further annihilating the myth that healthy kids can't get hit hard.

Previously, "the majority of kids that I've seen get really sick (with Covid-19) have been kids with other illnesses or comorbid conditions," said Dr. Susannah Hills, a pediatric airway surgeon at Columbia University Medical Center.

"But now, the difference with this Delta variant is that we're seeing kids who may not necessarily have comorbid conditions also end up in the hospital."
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And say one is STILL not convinced at this point because of course it would mean letting the libs win if covid vaccines are required to attend school, let's not forget that beyond the risk of hospitalization or MIS-C, covid poses an additional risk to children (and everyone else) distinct from say flu, and that is the risk of long covid:

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"All pediatric patients who tested positive should have at least one follow-up exam with a pediatrician, the AAP said.

Pediatricians should watch out for residual or long-term Covid-19 problems such as respiratory symptoms, which can last three months or more; heart issues, including a type of heart inflammation known as myocarditis; cognitive problems such as "brain fog"; headache; fatigue and mental health issues, the AAP said.

Children who had moderate or severe Covid-19 may be at greater risk for subsequent heart disease, the pediatrician group said."
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I have no problem if parents in their own houses want to subject themselves and their kids to whatever irrational fear they have, within the bounds of the state's laws regarding child welfare, but the fact remains that kids can spread covid when they leave the house, at which point your business becomes my business. And just like with every other infectious disease, I shouldn't have to subject my kid to a bunch of other unvaccinated kids especially when we know mask behavior and mask compliance in kids is questionable at best. I know you're very keen on paying bigly attention to the average person's perception of the risk of the vaccine as it relates to their kids, but let's face facts. The average person's interpretation means almost nothing in comparison to 1. the actual data (which shows that covid in kids ain't great), 2. the official recommendations of the FDA, CDC, Infectious Diseases Society of America, and the American Association of Pediatrics.

Hell, every state in the country came out with a varicella vaccine mandate within a few years of its approval, but yet chickenpox's morbidity/mortality is orders and orders of magnitude lower than covid. Too bad a certain group of people can't look at this vaccine as objectively as they did that one.

 

[vector2]

Totally normal, right?

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No pediatric ICU beds left in Dallas amid COVID surge, county judge says​

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins said Friday there were no pediatric intensive care unit beds available in Dallas, Texas and there haven't been for the past 24 hours. Surging COVID-19 cases due to the Delta variant and hospital staffing shortages in the area may be in part to blame.

"In Dallas, we have zero ICU beds left for children," Jenkins said Friday at a virtual news conference. "That means if your child's in a car wreck, if your child has a congenital heart defect or something and needs an ICU bed, or more likely if they have COVID and need an ICU bed, we don't have one. Your child will wait for another child to die."

He said the same is true for pediatric ICU beds in the 19 surrounding counties as well, mentioning that young patients may have to be transported farther away for care.

"Your child will just not get on the ventilator," he said. "Your child will be CareFlighted to Temple or Oklahoma City or wherever we can find them a bed, but they won't be getting one here unless one clears and that's been true for 24 hours."

As of August 6, there were 573 children aged 0 to 17 hospitalized from COVID-19 complications in Dallas County since the beginning of the pandemic, according to weekly data published by the Dallas County Department of Health.

Jenkins said ICU capacity isn't much better for adults in the area either.

More than 90% of ICU beds throughout Texas are full, leaving only 321 beds left for the 30 million people in the state. A doctor at Houston's LBJ Hospital said some patients have to wait hours or days before being seen by a health professional.

"The ICUs are full," Dr. Kunal Sharma, Chief of Emergency Services at LBJ Hospital told CBS News' Janet Shamlian. "Every bed is accounted for."

North Texas' ICU capacity issues are also coupled with hospital staffing shortages. State health officials this week warned lawmakers of the "crisis" which they said is on the verge of "disaster."

"I am frightened by what is coming," Dr. Esmaeil Porsa, the CEO for the Harris County hospital district said Tuesday to the Texas Senate Committee on Health and Human Services. He mentioned that if COVID-19 cases continue to increase at the rate of which they are going, "There is no way my hospital is going to be able to handle this. There is no way the region is going to handle this."

Dallas Parkland Hospital -- one of the nation's largest -- said it needs 500 more nurses and that some pregnant patients have been sent to other hospitals in order to receive care as a result of staffing shortages.

"I am faced with a workforce who is tired, overworked, and constantly under siege," Porsa told the committee.

As a means to help lessen the strain on suffering hospitals, Jenkins emphasized an order he signed Wednesday requiring public schools, child care centers and businesses in Dallas County to develop health and safety plans that include, at minimum, face mask requirements for employees and visitors. Texas Governor Greg Abbott has filed a petition to halt it.

"Our hospitals and our people desperately need some time to get bed capacity and doctor capacity up so their hospitals won't be overrun," he said.

Earlier this week, Jenkins also sued Abbott over the executive order banning mask mandates, and a district judge issued a temporary injunction to halt it. A hearing on the temporary injunction against the ban on mask mandates scheduled for August 24.

"[It's] not asking that much of people to wear a mask," Jenkins said Friday.

No pediatric ICU beds left in Dallas amid COVID surge, county judge says

"Your child will wait for another child to die," Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins said Friday.

www.cbsnews.com

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Only very dishonest people would look at articles like these and then suggest that the mechanistically implausible potential long-term risks of the vaccine could in any way outweigh the risks at our doorstep right now of leaving children unvaccinated.

 

[nimbus]

And say one is STILL not convinced at this point because of course it would mean letting the libs win if covid vaccines are required to attend school

I don’t know why things turned out that way. At one point conservatives were saying that Operation Warp Speed and the “Trump vaccine” would save us from the “China virus”. But at some point they completely abandoned that narrative. Why dump a clear winner? Is it because educated liberals liked the vaccine too?

 

[maxxor]

I don’t know why things turned out that way. At one point conservatives were saying that Operation Warp Speed and the “Trump vaccine” would save us from the “China virus”. But at some point they completely abandoned that narrative. Why dump a clear winner? Is it because educated liberals liked the vaccine too?

Because they lost the election. It almost seems like the collective decision was “well, can’t let Biden end the pandemic, so let’s drag it on until midterms”

 

[nimbus]

Because they lost the election. It almost seems like the collective decision was “well, can’t let Biden end the pandemic, so let’s drag it on until midterms”

Yes I agree. If Trump had won the election and continued his previous push for vaccination, conservatives would be less likely to oppose it.

 

[Leon'sMom]

You sound like Margaret Sanger. Sheesh.

Or Bill Gates, Sr.

 

[Leon'sMom]

You seem to be missing my point in all this, as usual. What you believe is best for your child happens to line up with what you believe is best for society, but if they weren’t aligned, would you do right (in your mind) by your kid or by society? If people judge the risk of the vaccine to their kids as worse than the risk of covid, that’s their choice. And if the 60 year old smoker does the same, that’s also their choice. That’s a more objectively unwise person compared to the parent who will opt to not vaccinate their 3 year old in 2022.

Ultimately it comes down to people choosing between two very low risk options. And when you are comparing 0.01% risk of A versus 0.005% risk of B, the state (and society as a whole) should back off and mind their own business. Especially when it really doesn’t affect most other people who have every chance to vaccinate and jog/drive/sleep in their N95s if they want to.

One of the scariest things I've heard tossed around during Covid is that government officials and school administrators have been pushing the idea that minor children should be able to decide for themselves whether or not to get the Covid vaccine without parental consent. There is only one other medical area (that I can think of) that these same people also want minors to be free of parental consent. Meanwhile, if a child is to receive any other vaccine or care, a parent must be present and give consent. And that's the way it should be, a parent should decide any medical care that their minor child receives.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Because they lost the election. It almost seems like the collective decision was “well, can’t let Biden end the pandemic, so let’s drag it on until midterms”

I have had a non-zero number of patients admit that they won't get the vaccine because "they don't want to make Biden look good".

 

[vector2]

Yes I agree. If Trump had won the election and continued his previous push for vaccination, conservatives would be less likely to oppose it.

I remember quite distinctly when Pence said to Kamala "The fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if the vaccine emerges during the Trump administration, I think is unconscionable."

And of course the rest of the maga minions were clutching their pearls and crying about liberals unfairly undermining the vaccine and impeding the future vaccination effort when they said they were going to wait until Fauci, the FDA, CDC, and other doctors said the vaccine was OK... instead of simply nodding their heads in agreement with the guy who asked if he could inject bleach and shove a UV light up his butt to cure covid.


Fast forward to today and now we have Shuckabee Sanders writing op-eds to conservatives about the "Trump Vaccine" and literally having to beg people to get it.

Strange world.

 

[dhb]

It's hard to find the actual numbers but as of the end of june in France there had been 15 deaths of minors none of them previously healthy.
There is currently for me no reason to vaccinate my kids...
How fat are the kids in the PICU in Texas?

 

[nimbus]

I remember quite distinctly when Pence said to Kamala "The fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if the vaccine emerges during the Trump administration, I think is unconscionable."

And of course the rest of the maga minions were clutching their pearls and crying about liberals unfairly undermining the vaccine and impeding the future vaccination effort when they said they were going to wait until Fauci, the FDA, CDC, and other doctors said the vaccine was OK... instead of simply nodding their heads in agreement with the guy who asked if he could inject bleach and shove a UV light up his butt to cure covid.


Fast forward to today and now we have Shuckabee Sanders writing op-eds to conservatives about the "Trump Vaccine" and literally having to beg people to get it.

Strange world.

And now that it is approved and we have more proof of safety and efficacy, there is more opposition. Strange world indeed.

 

[nimbus]

It's hard to find the actual numbers but as of the end of june in France there had been 15 deaths of minors none of them previously healthy.
There is currently for me no reason to vaccinate my kids...
How fat are the kids in the PICU in Texas?

How many deaths were there from measles and chicken pox? You’re using the classic anti-vaxxer argument.

 

[vector2]

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The nurses and doctors who care for the sickest patients at Children’s Hospital New Orleans (CHNO) have to take the good where they can these days. On Aug. 6, Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards announced that more than 3,000 children statewide had been diagnosed with COVID-19 over the course of just four days. That same week, about a quarter of Louisiana children tested for COVID-19 by the state’s largest health system turned out to have the virus.

Seventy young patients ended up in treatment at CHNO during the 30 days ending Aug. 23. Prior to this summer, the hospital had never had to care for more than seven COVID-19 patients at a time, and usually fewer than that; on any given day in August, that number has been at least in the mid-teens, enough that the facility had to call in a medical strike team from Rhode Island to help manage the surge.

CHNO isn’t alone. The extra-transmissible Delta variant has ushered in a new chapter of the pandemic. For the first time, pediatric hospitals are struggling to treat the number of young patients developing severe cases of COVID-19. A record high of more than 1,900 children were hospitalized nationwide on Aug. 14—and unlike during previous spikes, infections have so far been clustered largely in states with low vaccine coverage, meaning hospitals in undervaccinated states like Louisiana, Florida, Tennessee, Alabama and Texas are drowning. “Our hospital system across Alabama is beyond capacity. Last week we had net negative ICU beds, and that’s pediatric and adult together,” says Dr. David Kimberlin, co-director of the division of pediatric infectious diseases at Children’s of Alabama. “Doctors are doing CPR in the back of pickup trucks.”

Pediatric Hospitals Are At Their Breaking Points as COVID-19 Surges

It's a tragic new chapter of the pandemic

time.com

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This sht is not normal. 1.9% of recent pediatric cases resulting in hospitalization is absurdly high. Even 0.2% would still be concerning. For reference, hospitalization for pediatric flu (which actually appears more virulent in the last couple years), is 0.08%.

 

[dhb]

How many deaths were there from measles and chicken pox? You’re using the classic anti-vaxxer argument.

Why do you think it's a good idea to lump everybody in the same gun loving, trump d sucking, extreme right anti vaxxer bag? Can we not argue on merit?
The fact is that where i live (not in Texas or Louisiana) there has been virtually 0 fatal cases for previoulsy healthy children and i have not heard of any rise of PICU cases.
So as i said: CURRENTLY (yes you might find it wierd that my judgement can change) i don't think there is a benefit to vaccination for minors.
If you wish to formulate a coherent argument i would be happy to hear it but throwing measles and chicken pox in a 3 liner is a little weak.

 

[nimbus]

Why do you think it's a good idea to lump everybody in the same gun loving, trump d sucking, extreme right anti vaxxer bag? Can we not argue on merit?
The fact is that where i live (not in Texas or Louisiana) there has been virtually 0 fatal cases for previoulsy healthy children and i have not heard of any rise of PICU cases.
So as i said: CURRENTLY (yes you might find it wierd that my judgement can change) i don't think there is a benefit to vaccination for minors.
If you wish to formulate a coherent argument i would be happy to hear it but throwing measles and chicken pox in a 3 liner is a little weak.

You’re the one who is arguing that few or rare deaths means no need to vaccinate. That’s why I’m asking about measles and chicken pox deaths.

 

[dhb]

You’re the one who is arguing that few or rare deaths means no need to vaccinate. That’s why I’m asking about measles and chicken pox deaths.

Well basically no deaths and no long term side effects.
I would for sure make them take the vaccine if they had any serious comorbidities.
One of my kids classmate was hospitalized for 3 days with covid but he had had some form of neoplasia previously.

 

[dhb]

I’m asking about measles and chicken pox

These are well know vaccines with a high efficacy (unlike what we are seeing with the current covid vaccine which are not horrible but not as good as the vaccine on kids regular schedule) that do prevent rare but significant side effects.

 

[vector2]

A group of more than 220 children's hospitals is imploring the Biden administration for help, as a surge of young COVID-19 patients puts an "unprecedented strain" on their facilities and staff across the country.

Pediatric hospitals are "at or near capacity" and they expect to see more child patients as the school year resumes, according to the Children's Hospital Association.

"[T]here may not be sufficient bed capacity or expert staff to care for children and families in need," wrote association CEO Mark Wietecha in a letter to President Biden on Aug. 26.
...
The recent surge in COVID-19 cases driven by the delta variant has afflicted children more seriously than previous strains had, and children under age 12 still cannot get vaccinated. Some children are coming down with the coronavirus and RSV, a seasonal respiratory virus that can be dangerous in kids, at the same time.

Children's Hospitals Are Pleading For Federal Help As They Run Out Of Beds

Pediatric hospitals are "at or near capacity" and expect to see more young COVID-19 patients as the school year resumes, according to the Children's Hospital Association.

www.npr.org

---


The best compilation of peds data both nationally and globally is current up til about Feb of this year (see this Lancet paper)

Making presumptions of about peds without taking delta into account is foolish

 

[Matty44]

Nah, you're missing the point, in that the laymen out there who are judging the risk of the vaccine as worse than the risk of covid are just plain wrong. Their "opinion" essentially means fk-all when we look at the actual data not just on mortality (which is the thing you're perseverating on), but also morbidity.

----
"The rate of children with coronavirus who end up hospitalized is 49.7 per 100,000 children as of August 14, with the highest rate of hospitalizations among kids under the age of 4 (69%) followed by teens between the ages of 12-17 (64%).
.
Unvaccinated teenagers are nearly 10 times more likely to be hospitalized compared to their unvaccinated peers, according to CDC data collected from hospitals in 14 states in July.
"

Hospitalizations Associated with COVID-19 Among Children...

COVID-19–associated hospitalization rates among children and adolescents increased with the Delta variant.

www.cdc.gov

---

Furthermore, it's not just kids with pre-existing conditions who are getting hospitalized:

----
"Almost half -- 46.4% -- of children hospitalized with Covid-19 between March 2020 and June 2021 had no known underlying condition, according to CDC data from almost 100 US counties.

And the Delta variant is further annihilating the myth that healthy kids can't get hit hard.

Previously, "the majority of kids that I've seen get really sick (with Covid-19) have been kids with other illnesses or comorbid conditions," said Dr. Susannah Hills, a pediatric airway surgeon at Columbia University Medical Center.

"But now, the difference with this Delta variant is that we're seeing kids who may not necessarily have comorbid conditions also end up in the hospital."
---

And say one is STILL not convinced at this point because of course it would mean letting the libs win if covid vaccines are required to attend school, let's not forget that beyond the risk of hospitalization or MIS-C, covid poses an additional risk to children (and everyone else) distinct from say flu, and that is the risk of long covid:

---
"All pediatric patients who tested positive should have at least one follow-up exam with a pediatrician, the AAP said.

Pediatricians should watch out for residual or long-term Covid-19 problems such as respiratory symptoms, which can last three months or more; heart issues, including a type of heart inflammation known as myocarditis; cognitive problems such as "brain fog"; headache; fatigue and mental health issues, the AAP said.

Children who had moderate or severe Covid-19 may be at greater risk for subsequent heart disease, the pediatrician group said."
----


I have no problem if parents in their own houses want to subject themselves and their kids to whatever irrational fear they have, within the bounds of the state's laws regarding child welfare, but the fact remains that kids can spread covid when they leave the house, at which point your business becomes my business. And just like with every other infectious disease, I shouldn't have to subject my kid to a bunch of other unvaccinated kids especially when we know mask behavior and mask compliance in kids is questionable at best. I know you're very keen on paying bigly attention to the average person's perception of the risk of the vaccine as it relates to their kids, but let's face facts. The average person's interpretation means almost nothing in comparison to 1. the actual data (which shows that covid in kids ain't great), 2. the official recommendations of the FDA, CDC, Infectious Diseases Society of America, and the American Association of Pediatrics.

Hell, every state in the country came out with a varicella vaccine mandate within a few years of its approval, but yet chickenpox's morbidity/mortality is orders and orders of magnitude lower than covid. Too bad a certain group of people can't look at this vaccine as objectively as they did that one.

So to recap, less than 1/2 of 1/10th of 1% of children who get covid (not of the total pediatric population), will end up hospitalized, and most of which will recover with no long term sequelae.

- researchers from King's College in London say only 1.8% of children are not fully recovered by 8 weeks.

Long COVID-19 rare in children, study says

www.cidrap.umn.edu

AND if your child is vaccinated, they have 10x less risk than the 1/2 of 1/10th of 1% chance of being hospitalized. So if you wanna vaccinate your child, he or she will now have a 0.005% chance of being hospitalized with covid, and then a 98.2% chance of having no long term symptoms.

And as always, the chance of death will be about 1 in 150,000. Also, bear in mind, that this number comes from data spannin the entire pandemic, which means its looking overwhelmingly at the mortality rate of unvaccinated kids (because the vaccine has simply not been available to people under 18 for the majority of the pandemic). So that number will get even more miniscule once your child has been vaccinated, perhaps 1 in a 1,000,000 or less. So when is my unvaccinated child NOT gonna be a threat to you or your child? When the risk of being hospitalized is 0.0005%? 0.00005%? Where's your threshold? Do you think we are ever going to get to ZERO covid risk? What level of risk to the general population must be present in order for the government to mandate medical procedures/medications?

Also, since a lot of what you posted was just quotes from people without data, here's a quote from the head of ID at Children's National:
"...if we look at the American Academy of Pediatrics and Children's Hospital Association data, which has really been a very good source of information every two weeks since the beginning of this, children are still somewhere between 12- to 15% of all the cases of COVID and still are about 3- to 4% of all the hospitalizations. And we have not seen a huge change in that, even with this delta variant.

But again, if you have a larger number of cases overall and you apply that percentage, you're going to see children hospitalized. And that's really the most important take home for families is that there's nothing particularly more dangerous about the delta variant for children, but it has always remained a danger."

 

[Matty44]

On a side note, and I truly don't know the answer, so if you know please educate me, but what is actually classified as a "covid hospitalization"? Does the asymptomatic elective ortho case with a planned post op stay who tests positive for covid count as a covid hospitalization? The late-night appy that tests positive? Or must one be hospitalized primarily for the treatment of covid to be counted in the hospitalization numbers?

Thanks.

 

[doctalaughs]

On a side note, and I truly don't know the answer, so if you know please educate me, but what is actually classified as a "covid hospitalization"? Does the asymptomatic elective ortho case with a planned post op stay who tests positive for covid count as a covid hospitalization? The late-night appy that tests positive? Or must one be hospitalized primarily for the treatment of covid to be counted in the hospitalization numbers?

Thanks.

I will vaccinate my kids as soon as it’s available, not because I think the risk of covid to them is large. Because:

1) The studies are very large. They are some of the largest trials in the history of this country. Many things we do in medicine and are accepted routinely have much, much less data. They really shouldn’t have called it “emergency use” approval IMO when the studies are larger than the most popular statins that we give out like candy.

2) I don’t want them to miss weeks of school even with mild covid and want to mitigate that risk.

3) I don’t want them giving people covid, especially those more susceptible to bad outcomes. It’s the right thing to do for society.

4) distant fourth is to protect them from the small risk to themselves. The (again large) studies do show the benefit outweighs the risk.

 

[vector2]

So to recap, less than 1/2 of 1/10th of 1% of children who get covid (not of the total pediatric population), will end up hospitalized, and most of which will recover with no long term sequelae.

- researchers from King's College in London say only 1.8% of children are not fully recovered by 8 weeks.

Long COVID-19 rare in children, study says

www.cidrap.umn.edu

AND if your child is vaccinated, they have 10x less risk than the 1/2 of 1/10th of 1% chance of being hospitalized. So if you wanna vaccinate your child, he or she will now have a 0.005% chance of being hospitalized with covid, and then a 98.2% chance of having no long term symptoms.

And as always, the chance of death will be about 1 in 150,000. Also, bear in mind, that this number comes from data spannin the entire pandemic, which means its looking overwhelmingly at the mortality rate of unvaccinated kids (because the vaccine has simply not been available to people under 18 for the majority of the pandemic). So that number will get even more miniscule once your child has been vaccinated, perhaps 1 in a 1,000,000 or less. So when is my unvaccinated child NOT gonna be a threat to you or your child? When the risk of being hospitalized is 0.0005%? 0.00005%? Where's your threshold? Do you think we are ever going to get to ZERO covid risk? What level of risk to the general population must be present in order for the government to mandate medical procedures/medications?

Also, since a lot of what you posted was just quotes from people without data, here's a quote from the head of ID at Children's National:
"...if we look at the American Academy of Pediatrics and Children's Hospital Association data, which has really been a very good source of information every two weeks since the beginning of this, children are still somewhere between 12- to 15% of all the cases of COVID and still are about 3- to 4% of all the hospitalizations. And we have not seen a huge change in that, even with this delta variant.

But again, if you have a larger number of cases overall and you apply that percentage, you're going to see children hospitalized. And that's really the most important take home for families is that there's nothing particularly more dangerous about the delta variant for children, but it has always remained a danger."

I think you've got a really poor grasp of what the relative incidences and the relative morbidity and mortality are of various (pediatric) infectious diseases. And even less of an idea how those concepts relate to individual risk analysis and to public health.

In addition to the fact that you conveniently ignored the glaring empiric evidence of how bad covid is vis a vis the number of childrens hospitals that have bed shortages because of current events, I also say this because it seems like you're snarkily using the phrase "1/2 of 1/10th of 1% of children who get covid" i.e. 50 per 100,000 as if that's some astronomically low number and therefore kids should go unvaxxed. It's not.

"Children ages 4 and under have been hospitalized at a rate of 48.8 per 100,000 children this season. This age group has the second-highest hospitalization rate. The overall population has been hospitalized at a rate of 29.7 per 100,000, which is about average for this time of year."

What disease are they talking about? Influenza, for which pediatricians and ID folks recommend vaccination for young kids, the elderly, and HCW without fail.

How bout varicella?

"Hospitalization rates were approximately 1 to 2 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 14 per 1,000 cases among adults."

That's only a measly 1/10th to 1/5th of 1% of kids who get chicken pox! I mean gosh, why would all 50 states require school vaccination for a disease so rarely morbid it could be on an episode of House?

And sheeeet, while we're talking about numbers, there are about 48 million children 12 and under in this country. There were only 608 MVC fatalities in that age group in 2019 and 40% of them were unrestrained. Overall, a kid's annual risk of dying in a car wreck is about one thousandth of 1%.

By your logic I guess we can all start ditching those car seats and let our kids go wild, unencumbered from the harsh restraints of those seatbelts in the back of the minivan.

 

[vector2]

"The estimated mean annual Incidence Rate (IR) was 16.9/100,000 for bacterial meningitis, 8.9/100,000 for Neisseria meningitidis, 1.3/100,000 for Streptococcus pneumoniae, 2.5/100,000 for Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) before vaccination and 0.4/100,000 for Hib after vaccination."

The incidence is less than 1/5th of 1/10th of 1%, not to mention meningococcus is still supremely susceptible to ceftriaxone in most places, and yet these school board fascists are making my kid get vaccinated. Unbelievable. This is how liberty dies...

 

[gasdoc77]

You’re the one who is arguing that few or rare deaths means no need to vaccinate. That’s why I’m asking about measles and chicken pox deaths.

Since we are comparing our supposed Covid endgame to the success with chickenpox and measles, can chickenpox or measles be found in/transmitted by animal reservoirs where they might mutate?

If not, should we also mandate Covid shots for every dog, cat, hamster, etc "just in case"?

 

[deleted126335]

Since we are comparing our supposed Covid endgame to the success with chickenpox and measles, can chickenpox or measles be found in animal reservoirs where they might mutate?

If not, should we also mandate Covid shots for every dog, cat, hamster, etc "just in case"?

Just make sure that you cook your cats, dogs, and hamsters thoroughly before eating. Should be fine.

 

[Matty44]

I think you've got a really poor grasp of what the relative incidences and the relative morbidity and mortality are of various (pediatric) infectious diseases. And even less of an idea how those concepts relate to individual risk analysis and to public health.

In addition to the fact that you conveniently ignored the glaring empiric evidence of how bad covid is vis a vis the number of childrens hospitals that have bed shortages because of current events, I also say this because it seems like you're snarkily using the phrase "1/2 of 1/10th of 1% of children who get covid" i.e. 50 per 100,000 as if that's some astronomically low number and therefore kids should go unvaxxed. It's not.

"Children ages 4 and under have been hospitalized at a rate of 48.8 per 100,000 children this season. This age group has the second-highest hospitalization rate. The overall population has been hospitalized at a rate of 29.7 per 100,000, which is about average for this time of year."

What disease are they talking about? Influenza, for which pediatricians and ID folks recommend vaccination for young kids, the elderly, and HCW without fail.

How bout varicella?

"Hospitalization rates were approximately 1 to 2 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 14 per 1,000 cases among adults."

That's only a measly 1/10th to 1/5th of 1% of kids who get chicken pox! I mean gosh, why would all 50 states require school vaccination for a disease so rarely morbid it could be on an episode of House?

And sheeeet, while we're talking about numbers, there are about 48 million children 12 and under in this country. There were only 608 MVC fatalities in that age group in 2019 and 40% of them were unrestrained. Overall, a kid's annual risk of dying in a car wreck is about one thousandth of 1%.

By your logic I guess we can all start ditching those car seats and let our kids go wild, unencumbered from the harsh restraints of those seatbelts in the back of the minivan.

Influenza and varicella vaccines have been around for quite a while. All things covid are new in the last 18 months or less. I have no problem with people recommending vaccines as I’m not some anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination. My point remains that the incidence of hospitalization and death is quite low in children and if mandates come for all school age kids, I’d find that unpalatable and would not fault any parent for wanting to reserve the right to pass on the vaccine until a time they were comfortable with doing so.




And your seatbelt analogy is just plain silly.

 

[Matty44]

"The estimated mean annual Incidence Rate (IR) was 16.9/100,000 for bacterial meningitis, 8.9/100,000 for Neisseria meningitidis, 1.3/100,000 for Streptococcus pneumoniae, 2.5/100,000 for Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) before vaccination and 0.4/100,000 for Hib after vaccination."

The incidence is less than 1/5th of 1/10th of 1%, not to mention meningococcus is still supremely susceptible to ceftriaxone in most places, and yet these school board fascists are making my kid get vaccinated. Unbelievable. This is how liberty dies...

Seriously?

Mortality rates for the infections you listed are as follows:

Neisseria 10-15%
Streptococcus 5-7%
Haemophilus 3-6%

So, seriously? You’re gonna bring those up in a discussion of covid in kids where the mortality rate is 0.00067%?

Gotcha.

 

[greatnt249]

Seriously?

Mortality rates for the disease you listed are as follows:

Neisseria 10-15%
Streptococcus 5-7%
Haemophilus 3-6%

So, seriously? You’re gonna bring those up in a discussion of covid in kids where the mortality rate is 0.00067%?

Gotcha.

You keep talking about mortality as if it is the only meaningful determinant in whether or not to get vaccinated.