Vet Doing Something You Disagree With

[NStarz]

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Hi everyone. I recently started shadowing a vet who happens to be close to my family (well, volunteer tech-ing really.) I have a lot of animal training experience (shelter work, etc.) and this situation really bothered me:

A client brought in a new puppy. The puppy rolls over to get its belly rubbed, and the vet begins to show the client how to do a "dominant down" and begins to instruct them on dominance hierarchy and alpha rolls and such.

While I don't want to start a debate about the proper methods of training, I am a 100% positive reinforcement trainer. My real concern is that the client is looking up to this vet for advice, and the vet, instead of referring them to a qualified trainer, attempts to teach 'training' on his own. Of course, I didn't say anything as I am still new, but it still really irked me. This is a big moral problem for me. I'm not sure what his credentials are, but 1 animal behavior class in vet school doesn't seem to be enough for me to give out training advice to clients (especially unsolicited!). (Even if the advice he was giving was sound, I still don't think it would have been his place to do so.) What would you do??

 

[thereservoirdog]

Sounds like he was just giving a tip, big deal. Some people take dog training way too seriously. Do you need a PhD in animal behavior now just to give someone training advice?

 

[Angelo84]

This would bother me as well. Maybe once you have been there a little longer you could bring it up in some down time? Maybe if there are any clinic animals offer to shape a behavior in one of them? I would try to use it as a topic of discussion as opposed to a what do you think your doing accusation. Maybe ask if there are any local trainers that have different methods?

 

[dyachei]

While I don't want to start a debate about the proper methods of training, I am a 100% positive reinforcement trainer. My real concern is that the client is looking up to this vet for advice, and the vet, instead of referring them to a qualified trainer, attempts to teach 'training' on his own. Of course, I didn't say anything as I am still new, but it still really irked me. This is a big moral problem for me. I'm not sure what his credentials are, but 1 animal behavior class in vet school doesn't seem to be enough for me to give out training advice to clients (especially unsolicited!). (Even if the advice he was giving was sound, I still don't think it would have been his place to do so.) What would you do??

If one class in vet school and the clinical experience to back it up doesn't qualify you for something, then a lot of my classes are for nothing. Not to mention that my Animal Behavior class was pretty intensive. Although some vet schools don't have animal behavior classes. Also, I do think that vets should give unsolicited advice on behavioral problems since they are the most common cause of euthanasia or relinquishment and many owners do not know that there are options out there. I would be interested to know what you mean by qualified trainers. In my experience, many trainers in areas have no more qualification than reading a book on whatever training method they choose. I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that 100% positive reinforcement is more accepted in the veterinary world, because I agree with you.

 

[PicklePie]

When you are shadowing, I do not think that it is really your place to intervene in that kind of situation. As much as you disagree with the practice, I can't stand the whole dog whisperer alpha roll crap, the client came to see the vet not you.

Some of the things that I have seen a vet I know do make my skin crawl, but it was not my place to make a scene about it. One time she charged for unnecessary bloodwork and did not even look at the results before proceeding with anesthesia. Ugh, some clinics just have a lower moral standard than others. Unfortunately you cannot fix the problem very easily when you are that far down the totem pole. If it bothers you that much, talk to the vet about it when you can do it privately.

 

[CBRGrl]

Sounds like he was just giving a tip, big deal. Some people take dog training way too seriously. Do you need a PhD in animal behavior now just to give someone training advice?

I agree, I have worked in clinics for years and have definitely noticed that people get very territorial when it comes to the "right way" to train a dog. If it works, it works, and I would definitely take the advice of a vet with decades of experience working with animals over a certified dog trainer any day. Main reason? In vet school they remind us over and over that dogs and cats are animals...and using basic instincts such as dominance (IF DONE PROPERLY) is a pretty reasonable way to train an animal. Plus, coming into contact with, literally, thousands of dogs and cats over the life of a small animal practitioner means you must have a firm handle on animal behavior.

I have never seen positive reinforcement used in a wolf pack.

That said, I think that training depends on the person doing it...everyone has a different way. It's not like the vet was doing anything bad to the puppy or being overly aggressive, he was just giving his educated opinion.

 

[turnbackhelly]

Personally, when I have a training question or concern I first ask my veterinarian to see if she has any suggestions, whether they be a specific method to try on my own or a trainer/behaviorist she can refer me to. I trust her judgment, but then again, she's also very good about admitting to the limits of her training knowledge/experience and referring me to other, more appropriate resources if necessary.

 

[karmapple]

Sounds like he was just giving a tip, big deal. Some people take dog training way too seriously. Do you need a PhD in animal behavior now just to give someone training advice?

I would say that dispensing extremely outdated and disproved advice that is the complete opposite advice of any veterinary behaviorist is a huge deal. I would say recommending training methods that could lead to a fearful/ aggressive dog in the future is also a huge deal.

 

[NStarz]

If one class in vet school and the clinical experience to back it up doesn't qualify you for something, then a lot of my classes are for nothing. Not to mention that my Animal Behavior class was pretty intensive. Although some vet schools don't have animal behavior classes. Also, I do think that vets should give unsolicited advice on behavioral problems since they are the most common cause of euthanasia or relinquishment and many owners do not know that there are options out there. I would be interested to know what you mean by qualified trainers. In my experience, many trainers in areas have no more qualification than reading a book on whatever training method they choose. I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that 100% positive reinforcement is more accepted in the veterinary world, because I agree with you.

Most trainers, unfortunately, do not have qualifications. However, there are schools such as Jean Donaldson's CTC program in the SFSPCA that require you to be knowledgeable and skilled in your subject area. There are also board-certified veterinary behaviorists.

This was not a problem that needed fixing, however. Of course, I have not been to veterinary school yet (and therefore my opinion may change) but I feel that if I was unqualified in an area, I would refer them to someone else (ie if I was a cardiologist and the patient had cancer, I would refer them to a vetinary oncologist).

Unfortunately, these methods may actually lead to behavior problems, agression, etc., but that is another discussion altogether. Fixing behavior problems such as housesoiling would expose themselves in different ways. (The client would say "my dog is peeing in the house" and the vet could then respond.) I believe this situation is almost akin to a random pediatrician walking up to a parent on the street and giving them advice on child-rearing.

One class is veterinary school would not qualify you to be a veterinarian, nor would one class in training qualify you to be a trainer. That's why there are residencies and internships that are required before you specialize. It is the culmination of veterinary schooling that allows you to become a licensed veterinary, not one biochemistry or radiology class.

 

[Electrophile]

Sounds like he was just giving a tip, big deal. Some people take dog training way too seriously. Do you need a PhD in animal behavior now just to give someone training advice?

Big deal? Well, will it be the vet who is sued when the puppy becomes an adult, is forced down, gets pissed, and takes the face off off the owner? How about the former puppy turned dog when it gets put to sleep for "aggression?" Just because Cesar Millan does it on TV (which I disagree with, but whatever...), doesn't mean a clueless pet owner should.

I'm a trainer and a behaviorist myself (with a masters degree in biology, with 3 classes in animal behavior in grad school, 1 class in vet school) and while I don't believe in "no corrections" style of training because I think we live in a world of consequences, alpha rolls are both dangerous and outdated. Dogs (and wolves) typically roll over on their own, not because they are forced down. Without a muzzle on, someone can be seriously injured if the dog that's forced down decides to assert itself or it perceives itself to being attacked. Don't pick a fight with a dog you can't win. Here is the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's position statement on dominance and alpha rolls:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

 

[david594]

I would say that dispensing extremely outdated and disproved advice that is the complete opposite advice of any veterinary behaviorist is a huge deal. I would say recommending training methods that could lead to a fearful/ aggressive dog in the future is also a huge deal.

Clearly someone paid attention in behavior class!

And isnt studying for cell bio either.

 

[dyachei]

Most trainers, unfortunately, do not have qualifications. However, there are schools such as Jean Donaldson's CTC program in the SFSPCA that require you to be knowledgeable and skilled in your subject area. There are also board-certified veterinary behaviorists.

This was not a problem that needed fixing, however. Of course, I have not been to veterinary school yet (and therefore my opinion may change) but I feel that if I was unqualified in an area, I would refer them to someone else (ie if I was a cardiologist and the patient had cancer, I would refer them to a vetinary oncologist).

Unfortunately, these methods may actually lead to behavior problems, agression, etc., but that is another discussion altogether. Fixing behavior problems such as housesoiling would expose themselves in different ways. (The client would say "my dog is peeing in the house" and the vet could then respond.) I believe this situation is almost akin to a random pediatrician walking up to a parent on the street and giving them advice on child-rearing.

One class is veterinary school would not qualify you to be a veterinarian, nor would one class in training qualify you to be a trainer. That's why there are residencies and internships that are required before you specialize. It is the culmination of veterinary schooling that allows you to become a licensed veterinary, not one biochemistry or radiology class.

My point is that in vet school we often get 1 class on a subject and are expected to be able to treat those issues. Why is behavior an exception? For instance, we only had 1 surgery class but we are expected to do spays/neuters. We only had 1 urinary class but are expected to be able to interpret clinical signs and treat appropriately. We also only had 1 behavior class. A lot of areas are underserved with behavior specialists and it is up to the community vet to take up the slack.

I don't disagree that this is outdated and you may want to gently ask the vet why he showed that technique and not a different one in private. But I also don't think that we should always refer patients away when they have cancers, behavior problems, etc. or all you would see are wellness checks, vaccinations, and other typical issues. Just because specialties exist does not mean that the community vet is incapable of treating those issues just as well.

 

[karmapple]

Clearly someone paid attention in behavior class!

And isnt studying for cell bio either.

😳 Guilty. But then if you are on SDN, David, neither are you! 😉

Hey, as much as everyone complained, I am SO glad behavior became a required course at OSU. Hopefully we won't produce another generation of veterinarians that are out there distributing such dangerous advice to their trusting clients.

 

[karmapple]

My point is that in vet school we often get 1 class on a subject and are expected to be able to treat those issues. Why is behavior an exception? For instance, we only had 1 surgery class but we are expected to do spays/neuters. We only had 1 urinary class but are expected to be able to interpret clinical signs and treat appropriately. We also only had 1 behavior class. A lot of areas are underserved with behavior specialists and it is up to the community vet to take up the slack.

I don't disagree that this is outdated and you may want to gently ask the vet why he showed that technique and not a different one in private. But I also don't think that we should always refer patients away when they have cancers, behavior problems, etc. or all you would see are wellness checks, vaccinations, and other typical issues. Just because specialties exist does not mean that the community vet is incapable of treating those issues just as well.

It's perfectly fine for a vet to give out behavior advice if the advice has science behind it. This one doesn't. Hence the problem.

 

[Electrophile]

I agree, I have worked in clinics for years and have definitely noticed that people get very territorial when it comes to the "right way" to train a dog. If it works, it works, and I would definitely take the advice of a vet with decades of experience working with animals over a certified dog trainer any day. Main reason? In vet school they remind us over and over that dogs and cats are animals...and using basic instincts such as dominance (IF DONE PROPERLY) is a pretty reasonable way to train an animal. Plus, coming into contact with, literally, thousands of dogs and cats over the life of a small animal practitioner means you must have a firm handle on animal behavior.

I have never seen positive reinforcement used in a wolf pack.

That said, I think that training depends on the person doing it...everyone has a different way. It's not like the vet was doing anything bad to the puppy or being overly aggressive, he was just giving his educated opinion.

But it's NOT an educated opinion. That's an opinion that fell out of favor about 20 years ago! Would he practice medicine the exact same way he did in the late 80s? God, I hope not...

Many vets and vet students don't even know how to train their own dogs let alone other people's! I've been the vet school's therapy dog club trainer since I was a first year and I have seen for over two years now how poorly MANY vets and vet students' dogs act at vet school functions and at our training class. Mine are not perfect, but the HUGE lack of basic knowledge on training and behavior is mind boggling.

And sure there's positive reinforcement in a wolf pack. You do your part in hunting and defending the pack, you get to eat. All animals, including humans, work on the very basic principle of ANY BEHAVIOR THAT IS REINFORCED WILL CONTINUE.

 

[dyachei]

It's perfectly fine for a vet to give out behavior advice if the advice has science behind it. This one doesn't. Hence the problem.

Right, I agree with that. I think it's dangerous to say that a vet isn't qualified to give out behavior advice based on one class. It really stuck out to me and I wanted to address that since most subjects in vet school are 1 class and then there are clinics. It is also a vet's responsibility to keep up to date with current information.

 

[david594]

To start off by saying I don't have any big interest in behavior.... What we were taught was that "alpha rolling" an adult dog was ineffective at making a dog more submissive and dangerous to the person doing it. But how in a puppy is this really any different than any other form of positive punishment?

 

[thereservoirdog]

Big deal? Well, will it be the vet who is sued when the puppy becomes an adult, is forced down, gets pissed, and takes the face off off the owner? How about the former puppy turned dog when it gets put to sleep for "aggression?" Just because Cesar Millan does it on TV (which I disagree with, but whatever...), doesn't mean a clueless pet owner should.

I'm a trainer and a behaviorist myself (with a masters degree in biology, with 3 classes in animal behavior in grad school, 1 class in vet school) and while I don't believe in "no corrections" style of training because I think we live in a world of consequences, alpha rolls are both dangerous and outdated. Dogs (and wolves) typically roll over on their own, not because they are forced down. Without a muzzle on, someone can be seriously injured if the dog that's forced down decides to assert itself or it perceives itself to being attacked. Don't pick a fight with a dog you can't win. Here is the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's position statement on dominance and alpha rolls:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

I wasn't arguing for or against his methods, but I seriously doubt whatever he said is going to lead to an aggressive dog that's going to eventually be put down. I was more trying to hit on the point dyachei just mentioned above. There really is no basis for the original poster to say that he is unqualified to give advice. I would think having a DVM would be enough to give out a few tips and tricks, but for all the poster knows he might have had dogs all his life, taken many behavior classes, etc.

We should all probably be more worried about dog trainers doling out medical advice, which I've seen more often than I'd like.

 

[VeganSoprano]

All that being said - I do think there is something to be said for training a dog to accept submissive positioning. It's a necessary part of pretty much everything that happens at the vet. Ever try to do a saphenous blood draw on a dog who will not accept submissive positioning? Place a catheter on a dog who won't accept restraint? It's not very much fun.

 

[sumstorm]

To me, dispensing outdated info on behavior is as risky to health and well being as dispensing outdated info on deworming in livestock (contributes to resistance) and dispensing pharms that are not considered appropriate or are considered risky now when better alternatives exist.

However, as a shadower or an employee, I am not sure how many options you have. I have had this discussion with a lot of vets (and behavior is my passion; and my experience extends well beyond dogs, and does include wolves...and dominance theory by humans doesn't work with wolves either, and wolves do a lot of affilative behaviors that are positively reinforcing to/for each other) and essentially, if they have had an adequate experience with whatever they are recommending, they will stick to it....people do not accept data over personal experience.

The only way I have found to convince people is to expose them to trainers who can and do perform what seem like miracles. Amazing trainers tend to have the ability to reframe things for dogs and people. Could try leaving a copy of 'don't shoot the dog' as a gift (j/k!)

Oh, and it always amazes me when people say 'dog behavior and training is no big deal' and yet it ends the lives of so many animals prematurely. I don't think a PhD is necessary (nor fiscally viable) but I do think there should be mandatory minmal standards to hang a shingle out, just as there are for many other professions. And I say that knowing amazing trainers in the traditional realm and in the R+ realm....and amazing trainers do a lot of very similar things without realizing it (there was a study somewhere that showed successful trainers have a much higher rate of R+ even when they are traditional trainers than unsuccessful trainers, but that it was often things that wouldn't necessarily be noticed by unobservant individuals...or individuals so turned off they didn't want to watch.) I learned a lot about feedback and timing well before moving from traditional to primarily R+ (and I do not believe in only R+) training from excellent traditional trainers who believed that dogs needed to have spirit to perform, and worked to preserve that.

 

[karmapple]

To start off by saying I don't have any big interest in behavior.... What we were taught was that "alpha rolling" an adult dog was ineffective at making a dog more submissive and dangerous to the person doing it. But how in a puppy is this really any different than any other form of positive punishment?

I think the real question is: Why would you be using positive punishment at all?

 

[NStarz]

Right, I agree with that. I think it's dangerous to say that a vet isn't qualified to give out behavior advice based on one class. It really stuck out to me and I wanted to address that since most subjects in vet school are 1 class and then there are clinics. It is also a vet's responsibility to keep up to date with current information.

I want to clarify my statement a little. If you take one class on surgery, as you said, and then perform those surgeries for the rest of your practicing life, you are certainly qualified to perform a spay or neuter. If, however, you do not put that knowledge into practice for 30 years (ie, you haven't done a surgery in 30 years), I would not let you spay my dog.

If a skill is not practiced, it is lost. If you see a slide on a rare disease in school and then see that disease 10 years later, you might have to consult a book on how to treat the disease (no shame in that!). But you would not go in and treat the disease without looking at developments in the field, etc and just go on what you 'remember'. I have not worked on a dog with resource guarding issues in over a year. I would not just jump in and advise a client on how to fix a resource guarding issue without carefully thinking about my skills, and would most likely consult other trainers before dispensing a training plan.

 

[NStarz]

I wasn't arguing for or against his methods, but I seriously doubt whatever he said is going to lead to an aggressive dog that's going to eventually be put down. I was more trying to hit on the point dyachei just mentioned above. There really is no basis for the original poster to say that he is unqualified to give advice. I would think having a DVM would be enough to give out a few tips and tricks, but for all the poster knows he might have had dogs all his life, taken many behavior classes, etc.

We should all probably be more worried about dog trainers doling out medical advice, which I've seen more often than I'd like.

I would also like to point out that having dogs all one's life does not mean one is a qualified trainer or even a good dog owner. I have a family member that would physically hit his dogs (they were guard dogs, which is a problem in and of itself) if it growled at him over food.

DVMs should, like I said before definitely give out advice when it is asked for. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and advise them on how to treat their acne (or even how to lose weight).

Furthermore, one vet class, I don't think (again) qualifies you to treat a specific problem. I had a guinea pig who was given shampoo meant for dogs and cats and ended up having to be PTS because her stomach filled with fluid. The treating vet was a small animal vet, but not an exotics vet (though she probably took a class in vet school on exotics). I may be biased, but this is based on experience (and having seen so many shelter dogs going through fear issues and such because of poorly and wrongly used positive punishment).

 

[PicklePie]

The only way I have found to convince people is to expose them to trainers who can and do perform what seem like miracles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuOr2vlC-c
She beats Cesar any day.

 

[sumstorm]

All that being said - I do think there is something to be said for training a dog to accept submissive positioning. It's a necessary part of pretty much everything that happens at the vet. Ever try to do a saphenous blood draw on a dog who will not accept submissive positioning? Place a catheter on a dog who won't accept restraint? It's not very much fun.

My SAR dogs, bot high energy, high drive dogs are trained to offer any leg the tech prefers for blood draws. They can also be naso-gastric tubed. All by R+ training in a very short period of time due to necessity. Guess what happens when someone tries to heavily restrain my shepherd for a blood draw? I get to see it regularly at vet clinics where they refuse to accept that a dog doesn't have to be held down. It takes an average of 5 people to hold her down. She doesn't bite, but she sure can buck. I could work on counter conditioning her to this, but I find it pretty insulting when people can't even be bothered to listen. It always amazes me when they come up and say 'oh, we will need to sedate her for this' and I say 'bring her here' and can do a draw by myself just my saying 'sit', 'lift', 'freeze.' And the other amazing thing.....their tech can do the exact same thing. And the entire hassle could be avoided if they would have listened and/or let me demonstrate as I offered before. There are extremly good reasons that SAR dogs shouldn't be very accepting of restraint....that criminal we are tracking down will not hesitate to grab a dog and injure or kill it. I advocate that my dog behave herself, but I also advocate that people respect her.

Amazingly, I recently went to a vet where I said 'if your really gentle about it and don't hold her tightly, she will be great'...and this vet and her staff, who is wonderful to her patients and clients and staff, did listen, and had 0 issues. Sometimes how one treats the animal is important (and I would love to see anyone alpha roll that dog...though she readily flops for those she trusts....just like wolves will do.)

 

[Electrophile]

I think the real question is: Why would you be using positive punishment at all?

Well, all positive punishment is not bad. In fact, arguably, there is no such thing as 100% positive training because even saying "no" or some other corrective word can be considered P+ to some dogs. We also have the issue of what to do when the desire for a reward (food, praise, toy, etc) is less than the desire for an undesireable behavior (i.e.-lunging at other dogs in an aroused state). Yes, you do need to work out distances that cause the trigger and counter condition and desensitize them through motivational methods, but if you have a low food/toy/praise/whatever dog, even for liver or cheese or whatever when hungry and a highly dog aggressive dog, that may not work. Then I agree with the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that P+ shouldn't be the first thing to turn to, but in my experience, it is sometimes necessary.

 

[sumstorm]

To start off by saying I don't have any big interest in behavior.... What we were taught was that "alpha rolling" an adult dog was ineffective at making a dog more submissive and dangerous to the person doing it. But how in a puppy is this really any different than any other form of positive punishment?

OSU advocates alpha rolls in puppies? I am seriously asking out of curiosity.

 

[karmapple]

OSU advocates alpha rolls in puppies? I am seriously asking out of curiosity.

No. It was a "what NOT to do" example.

 

[sumstorm]

Well, all positive punishment is not bad. In fact, arguably, there is no such thing as 100% positive training because even saying "no" or some other corrective word can be considered P+ to some dogs. We also have the issue of what to do when the desire for a reward (food, praise, toy, etc) is less than the desire for an undesireable behavior (i.e.-lunging at other dogs in an aroused state). Yes, you do need to work out distances that cause the trigger and counter condition and desensitize them through motivational methods, but if you have a low food/toy/praise/whatever dog, even for liver or cheese or whatever when hungry and a highly dog aggressive dog, that may not work. Then I agree with the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that P+ shouldn't be the first thing to turn to, but in my experience, it is sometimes necessary.

What this made me think of is 'yes, lets posively punish the pup for being in the vet's office....that will make future visits better!' I do realize it is not that simple, but it can amaze me how some vet clinics have tons of clients with pets who are enthusiastic about coming to the clinic, while others have a pretty typical mix of responses to going to the vet (saying that based on my own experiences) and the difference in how the staff works with the animals in those clinics (again, based on my own observations as both a client and a vet assistant and a shadower.)

 

[Electrophile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuOr2vlC-c
She beats Cesar any day.

Funny video, but OMG, Victoria Stillwell drives me INSANE!!!! 😱😱😱 I cannot stand her energy or attitude. Her voice and volume makes me want to throw myself in front of traffic. 😛 I've watched about a dozen episodes and she's so condescending to the owners, even if they are clueless.

 

[NStarz]

Funny video, but OMG, Victoria Stillwell drives me INSANE!!!! 😱😱😱 I cannot stand her energy or attitude. Her voice and volume makes me want to throw myself in front of traffic. 😛 I've watched about a dozen episodes and she's so condescending to the owners, even if they are clueless.

Haha, I know! Her methods are wonderful, but her personality leaves something to be desired!

 

[karmapple]

Well, all positive punishment is not bad. In fact, arguably, there is no such thing as 100% positive training because even saying "no" or some other corrective word can be considered P+ to some dogs. We also have the issue of what to do when the desire for a reward (food, praise, toy, etc) is less than the desire for an undesireable behavior (i.e.-lunging at other dogs in an aroused state). Yes, you do need to work out distances that cause the trigger and counter condition and desensitize them through motivational methods, but if you have a low food/toy/praise/whatever dog, even for liver or cheese or whatever when hungry and a highly dog aggressive dog, that may not work. Then I agree with the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that P+ shouldn't be the first thing to turn to, but in my experience, it is sometimes necessary.

Hmmm... I guess I should have phrased that in terms of PHYSICAL positive punishment. My bad. I can't think of a situation where using physical violence is justified, and that is what an alpha roll is.

 

[Electrophile]

What this made me think of is 'yes, lets posively punish the pup for being in the vet's office....that will make future visits better!' I do realize it is not that simple, but it can amaze me how some vet clinics have tons of clients with pets who are enthusiastic about coming to the clinic, while others have a pretty typical mix of responses to going to the vet (saying that based on my own experiences) and the difference in how the staff works with the animals in those clinics (again, based on my own observations as both a client and a vet assistant and a shadower.)

Definitely! Had a client come in for an ortho consult yesterday with a fearful, shy Rottie mix. I took just a few minutes to work on body language, posture, a calm low voice (no baby talk), and treats to get the dog to not be quite as fearful. The owner was amazed, as she said he NEVER warms up to anyone as quickly. We had to muzzle him eventually to do his ortho exam (they have to be on their side for most of it and just wasn't going to tolerate it), but at least he wasn't going into bucking bronco mode. It's hard sometimes because in the clinics with appointments, you gotta go fast and quickly, but always gotta remember that the faster you push yourself on the dog, the harder it's going to be the next time.

 

[sumstorm]

No. It was a "what NOT to do" example.

Oh, ok...I read it as 'our class says it is ok in pups but not adults.'

I am glad our school has animal behavior class, but it really upset me earlier this year to watch a 3rd year put her dog on a shock collar to play with other dogs because he gets too wound up, and another yank his dog off his feet with a pinch collar because he grabbed a ball the guys were tossing back and forth and then dropped it in a water bowl the dogs were drinking out of when he went to get a drink. No 'drop it' or 'give' or anything else, just jerk and scream at the dog. And these are people who have passed the class.

I don't think one class makes anyone an expert, whether that is surgery, behavior, or such....but hopefully it would give us enough current knowledge to provide good information to our clients...but then we have a responsibility to stay up to date on that information throughout our careers, which is a challenge, and/or give referrals or get advice from experts when we need it.

 

[PicklePie]

Ha, I don't watch much Animal Planet anymore so I've only seen a few episodes. I don't have much of an opinion of her, but from what I have seen and read she is a huge step up from "My dog peed on the carpet, he must be trying to dominate me! *alpharoll*"

 

[david594]

OSU advocates alpha rolls in puppies? I am seriously asking out of curiosity.

We only ever talked about it in the context of adult animals. And one of the big emphasis points(other than it not really being effective) was that if the dog responds aggressive, it could do serious hurt the person.

Here is where my curiosity comes out....
In a puppy there is no risk of serious harm to the person doing it. So we are only left with it being a form of positive punishment. And positive punishment is(in some situations) an acceptable training method as long as you arn't subsequently conditioning the animal to have a fear response to the person doing it. Not saying there aren't better ways to handle the situation....

 

[thereservoirdog]

I would also like to point out that having dogs all one's life does not mean one is a qualified trainer or even a good dog owner. I have a family member that would physically hit his dogs (they were guard dogs, which is a problem in and of itself) if it growled at him over food.

DVMs should, like I said before definitely give out advice when it is asked for. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and advise them on how to treat their acne (or even how to lose weight).

Furthermore, one vet class, I don't think (again) qualifies you to treat a specific problem. I had a guinea pig who was given shampoo meant for dogs and cats and ended up having to be PTS because her stomach filled with fluid. The treating vet was a small animal vet, but not an exotics vet. I may be biased, but this is based on experience (and having seen so many shelter dogs going through fear issues and such because of poorly and wrongly used positive punishment).

First of all, this person was not just someone on the street. It was his client, and his patient. It didn't sound like he was trying to treat any existing behavior problems, but merely giving his client a few tips(I know, shocking, a DVM giving dog advice). If the dog had serious behavior issues, I would agree that he should be referred to a professional trainer if the vet doesn't think he can handle it himself.

Anyway, without knowing what he's done in his life, you can't really say whether he's qualified or not to give behavior advice. But if you really are so confident that what he's doing is going to harm animals, go ahead and tell him everything you've told us. That should make for an interesting story.

 

[DVMDream]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuOr2vlC-c
She beats Cesar any day.

This clip makes me laugh every time. The look on Stain's face is so hilarious!!

 

[NStarz]

I'm sorry, I don't understand why you're being so hostile. I came here looking for advice and an interesting debate, not to be ridiculed. Everyone has their own opinions and is entitled to them.

 

[sumstorm]

Hmmm... I guess I should have phrased that in terms of PHYSICAL positive punishment. My bad. I can't think of a situation where using physical violence is justified, and that is what an alpha roll is.

I can give you an example of physical P+ we use with the SAR dogs. We set up 'hot baits' of food because we have had poisonings of dogs. Hot baits are meat and other treats and food like items (including rotten carcasses and deer feces) laced with hot sauce and such.

I try to avoid using a heavy hand on dogs, because I think it damages the relationship, but I do 'take space' from dogs and that is aversive to some and therefor a P+.... I also will use tolerated but not desired activities (a dog that is accepting of a nail trip, or ear cleaning etc) as a solution to attention seeking dogs. Most dogs will stop demanding attention in a pushy manner if the response is an accepted by not desired activity.


Heck, I have one dog that finds it aversive if I even look at him with annoyance! And yet neiter of my SAR dogs would even be phased (I have seen one kicked hard during a search who only looked perplexed.)

 

[Electrophile]

We only ever talked about it in the context of adult animals. And one of the big emphasis points(other than it not really being effective) was that if the dog responds aggressive, it could do serious hurt the person.

Here is where my curiosity comes out....
In a puppy there is no risk of serious harm to the person doing it. So we are only left with it being a form of positive punishment. And positive punishment is(in some situations) an acceptable training method as long as you arn't subsequently conditioning the animal to have a fear response to the person doing it. Not saying there aren't better ways to handle the situation....

Yeah, but that's the rub. Alpha wolves don't typically intimidate cubs/puppies or subordinate wolves by shoving them down on the ground into submission. They get their top spot by being good leaders as the top breeding pair. So yes, being a bully about forcing a pup down on the ground is, in dog language, going to create a fear response. Any time you use positive punishment (verbal corrections, leash corrections, e-collar corrections, whatever), you really want to do the least amount of force to get the dog to comply and if you chose to use P+, make it APPROPRIATE to the temperament of the dog like sumstorm was alluding to. There's really VERY very few cases I can think of that would warrant forcefully forcing or flipping a dog, let alone a puppy, on their side. Not that I haven't done it and not that I don't use prong collars and e-collars (correctly and well fitted, btw), but their use must be judicious. If people don't know how to use a training tool correctly, they shouldn't use it at all.

 

[NStarz]

Also, even if I go to my own doctor (whom with I have a doctor-patient relationship) and asked for advice about gastrointestinal upset, I would be pretty offended if he offered me advice on how to boost my sex life, for example.

 

[david594]

There's really VERY very few cases I can think of that would warrant forcefully forcing or flipping a dog, let alone a puppy, on their side.

That makes sense. This keeps making me think of a vet whom I worked with that if a puppy were starting to get a bit nippy in an exam, he would put his thumb in the dogs mouth and hold the dogs head still via his lower jaw, and just tell the dog "no". Positive punishment again, but much less forceful.

 

[Electrophile]

Also, even if I go to my own doctor (whom with I have a doctor-patient relationship) and asked for advice about gastrointestinal upset, I would be pretty offended if he offered me advice on how to boost my sex life, for example.

What are you even talking about? *trying to figure out what that analogy has to do with anything...*

 

[NStarz]

First of all, this person was not just someone on the street. It was his client, and his patient. It didn't sound like he was trying to treat any existing behavior problems, but merely giving his client a few tips(I know, shocking, a DVM giving dog advice). If the dog had serious behavior issues, I would agree that he should be referred to a professional trainer if the vet doesn't think he can handle it himself.

Anyway, without knowing what he's done in his life, you can't really say whether he's qualified or not to give behavior advice. But if you really are so confident that what he's doing is going to harm animals, go ahead and tell him everything you've told us. That should make for an interesting story.

Lol. Sorry should have quoted!

 

[thereservoirdog]

I'm sorry, I don't understand why you're being so hostile. I came here looking for advice and an interesting debate, not to be ridiculed. Everyone has their own opinions and is entitled to them.

If your talking to me, I'm sorry, but I don't think I've tried to ridicule you in any way. I thought we were having an interesting debate.

Oh well, just forget it, I'm going to go watch Robin Williams' new stand up show now.

 

[PicklePie]

[LOL WUT]

What are you even talking about? *trying to figure out what that analogy has to do with anything...*

I like your style.
I am confused as to why NStarz is getting all bent when the majority of the thread is saying they are right about training.

 

[david594]

Also, even if I go to my own doctor (whom with I have a doctor-patient relationship) and asked for advice about gastrointestinal upset, I would be pretty offended if he offered me advice on how to boost my sex life, for example.

I'm pretty sure if your doctor saw something medically wrong with your sex life, it would be malpractice for him to ignore it and not say anything.

 

[sumstorm]

We only ever talked about it in the context of adult animals. And one of the big emphasis points(other than it not really being effective) was that if the dog responds aggressive, it could do serious hurt the person.

Here is where my curiosity comes out....
In a puppy there is no risk of serious harm to the person doing it. So we are only left with it being a form of positive punishment. And positive punishment is(in some situations) an acceptable training method as long as you arn't subsequently conditioning the animal to have a fear response to the person doing it. Not saying there aren't better ways to handle the situation....

But how do you know you aren't conditioning a fear response until you have an obvious one? And for a really bold dog (again, my above mentioned shepherd) you can get a dog who learns might makes right....and at 80 pounds of well-conditioned muscle with excellent balance and agility as an adult, the last thing I want is my dog using her strength and ability to do something entitles her to do it.

That is part of the wolf theory (which now has a lot of studies that contradict it even in wolves) that people don't mention....wolves DO challenge for authority and access to resources (the actual definition of dominance surrounds access to resources) so it makes sense that if you raise an animal by that theory, you risk that it may have a personality that challenges you for authority when it is older, bigger, stronger, etc. I prefer having an affilative relationship where my dog is seeking methods to access resources rather than pushing to get access to resources. If my dog figures it is easier to get her toy by sitting pretty than by leaping against me as a pup, she will probably use what worked in the past...sitting pretty. And what animals practice, they perfect. Part of why my shepherd 'rolls' herself....she has been well reinforced for it. And she will do it on request even for strangers if she trusts them, they know the cue, and they are around me or my husband or my family. Again, reinforcement. AS a pup, a vet did alph roll her at about 3 months of age. It was a vet I shadowed. While we went back to the same clinic, I watched her actively avoid that vet. If she wasn't well trained, my concern is that avoidance would be aggression. She definitly percieved him as a strange, unpredictable, uncommunicative, hostile individual not to be trusted. I would feel the same way if someone flipped me upside down a pinned me down the first time I met them. Heck, if my doctor did that, there would be a lawsuit. So, I train, and ask, and make it worth while. And over time, worth while becomes standard operating procedure.

 

[Electrophile]

That makes sense. This keeps making me think of a vet whom I worked with that if a puppy were starting to get a bit nippy in an exam, he would put his thumb in the dogs mouth and hold the dogs head still via his lower jaw, and just tell the dog "no". Positive punishment again, but much less forceful.

Yeah, definitely. Many people get into these positive reinforcement/punishment debates and think you're either pie in the sky not ever saying no to your dog because it might hurt its self esteem or on the other extreme, you're kicking and beating on your dog because it didn't sit that exact second. That's not how it works. It's a sliding scale.

If you were in clinics and you did something wrong that you had no idea that you weren't supposed to do it because you were just learning (just like puppies are just learning social skills and rules about being mouthy and biting), what's going to be more appropriate, the attending clinician screaming at you and throwing you down on the floor saying "Bad bad student!!! FAIL!!!" or an moderate "hey, that's not right, here's what you need to do, so let's not do that again."