NStarz

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Thought this might be a good place where people can post links to articles they've read that pertain to veterinary medicine. Then we can all discuss :)

I'll post the first one. I really don't mean to offend anyone, so I want to apologize in advance if anyone finds this offensive.

http://animals.change.org/blog/view/university_of_nebraska-lincoln_report_advocates_shooting_cats#share_source=blog-top_fb

Basically, U Nebraska-Lincoln is advocating for the elimination of feral cats, with some proposed methods that can be considered inhumane and even a felony in some states.
 
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NStarz

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Hmmm, interesting. Must have missed that one on DVM360. I would like to counter that article with an anecdote I've heard buzzing around the shelter community. There is one community (I think in California somewhere? The details are fuzzy) that has no kittens. None at all. Anyone who wants a kitten needs to go out of the city to do so, because their TNR program has been so successful. One of the stories I hear often (again, another anecdote) is that people want to spay and neuter their pets but if they don't, are prohibited by cost. Interesting to see a veterinarian take the opposite viewpoint. He makes some good points. However, even if TNR (or low cost S/N) isn't the answer, I have to admit that rounding up stray dogs and cats (even community cats) and shooting them doesn't seem like a good solution to me. :shrug:
 

katryn

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Haven't had time to track this down in any other kind of news story, or from the AVMA site (plan to do this later today), but this was on the Fully Vetted blog the other day:

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/dec/vet_meds_new_oath

Apparently they reworded the Veterinarians Oath to include "animal welfare". I'll be interested to see what comes up in the next couple of months as the community reacts.
 

EllieGirl89

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This is really interesting and I'm glad I can actually use something from the animal ethics course I took this quarter. The following quote is from the article in the original post:

Despite years of evidence showing that catching and killing cats is ineffective
Something we learned in my animal ethics class is that in order for a program of euthanizing these animals to actually have an effect on the population, 70% of the population must be euthanized. This is because of a phenomenon called the "vacuum effect." If you start eliminating these animals and don't get rid of 70% of them, it actually has the opposite effect. Once you get rid of some of the animals, there is less competition for resources and therefore the animals that remain are healthier and stronger. They are then able to have bigger and healthier litters, resulting in more animals, and the problem continues. The same is true of TNR programs. If 70% of the animals aren't caught and neutered, then these programs can have the opposite of the intended effects.

Not sure if that made any sense the way I explained it but I find it fascinating.
 

bbeventer

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Thought this might be a good place where people can post links to articles they've read that pertain to veterinary medicine. Then we can all discuss :)

I'll post the first one. I really don't mean to offend anyone, so I want to apologize in advance if anyone finds this offensive.

http://animals.change.org/blog/view/university_of_nebraska-lincoln_report_advocates_shooting_cats#share_source=blog-top_fb

Basically, U Nebraska-Lincoln is advocating for the elimination of feral cats, with some proposed methods that can be considered inhumane and even a felony in some states.
Very interesting.... I can see Nebraska's view point on the issue that eliminating feral cats is the only way to control the population, but for a university to support trapping and joe shmoe taking aim at them is rather appalling.

When I was working at the vet clinic there was one organization that would bring flyers in... about catching feral cats spay/neuter them, test them for feluk (if they had it I believe they were euthanized) and they would be vaccinated and then returned back to the "wild". I can't remember the name of it... I think it is nation wide. Anyone know?
 

EllieGirl89

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Very interesting.... I can see Nebraska's view point on the issue that eliminating feral cats is the only way to control the population, but for a university to support trapping and joe shmoe taking aim at them is rather appalling.

When I was working at the vet clinic there was one organization that would bring flyers in... about catching feral cats spay/neuter them, test them for feluk (if they had it I believe they were euthanized) and they would be vaccinated and then returned back to the "wild". I can't remember the name of it... I think it is nation wide. Anyone know?
That's TNR, or Trap, Neuter, Return.
 
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NStarz

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This is really interesting and I'm glad I can actually use something from the animal ethics course I took this quarter. The following quote is from the article in the original post:



Something we learned in my animal ethics class is that in order for a program of euthanizing these animals to actually have an effect on the population, 70% of the population must be euthanized. This is because of a phenomenon called the "vacuum effect." If you start eliminating these animals and don't get rid of 70% of them, it actually has the opposite effect. Once you get rid of some of the animals, there is less competition for resources and therefore the animals that remain are healthier and stronger. They are then able to have bigger and healthier litters, resulting in more animals, and the problem continues. The same is true of TNR programs. If 70% of the animals aren't caught and neutered, then these programs can have the opposite of the intended effects.

Not sure if that made any sense the way I explained it but I find it fascinating.
Hey EllieG, I just wanted some clarification on this. I've heard about this vacuum effect around the biz, but I honestly don't see how it can apply to killing of the cats. Unless you stop them from breeding, won't more cats always move in? Even if you manage to kill off 70% of the population? This definitely makes sense in terms of S/N, because I can see how the population can breed to boost its numbers again. I mean, I guess you can kill 70% of the entire feral cat population (like, worldwide), and that might have a dent. But won't one community killing cats will just allow another community's cats to move in.
 

bbeventer

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Ellie, is that 70% in a localized population of just feral cats?

ETA: My thinking was along the same lines as NStarz, and then their is always the continual abandonment of pets to consider.
 

EllieGirl89

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Good question guys! As far as I was taught it was in localized populations. But that's a good question to ponder, as to whether the addition of more animals by means of migration or further abandonment would counteract the effect if the cats were to be euthed. I don't have an answer to that one.
 

Armymutt25A

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Controlling the feral population is the same as controlling any population. Eliminating the individuals works for removing those individuals. In order to remove the entire group, you have to make it undesirable for them to live there. That means removing the resources that attract them. That's a very daunting task in the case of a human population, and it's relatively easy, compared to an animal that doesn't require a whole lot to survive in the first place. I don't know what the average life span of a feral cat is, I assume it's lower than a house cat, but the TNR approach is only going to work for that population. If you manage to catch 70% of the population, you reduce your chances of catching the intact animals who are breeding new intact animals to replace the altered animals who are dying off. You have to control the environment. Until the human population is able to control its behavior and be responsible, then you're not going to have success. The people themselves are the best eradication program. Wow, I have just found another area of vet med where my past experience is relevant, as this works the same with terrorists.

My big issue is with people who "own" the cat but let it roam the neighborhood. If you are going to claim it as a pet, keep it on your property. I don't let my dogs roam the neighborhood, they stay in the house or back yard if not on a leash. If you are in control of it, it's a pet. If not, it's a pest.

If you're looking for more news in vet med, sign up for smart briefs: http://www.smartbrief.com/avma/
 
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I read about this in the paper last week...

In my city, some people have bought "cat condos" and put them on their property. It gives the ferals some shelter, it makes them easy to feed and makes them easier to catch for TRN. In a sense, it's counter productive, right? You're feeding/sheltering individuals. They're going to live longer lives and produce healthier litters, and there is no way you can fix them all, especially in my city. TNR is new and I don't know how involved they are. Also, there are no low cost spay/neuter programs in the province. The SPCA has a program where you can fix an animal for $50 or less, but you need to be under a certain income to qualify.

There are 6+ "wandering" cats on my street alone. None have collars... saw one with a flea collar once, but that doesn't count. There is also a cat around that a family had "taken responsibility for" a few months ago. I saw it last week and he still had his balls. *headdesk*
 
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NStarz

NStarz

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I read about this in the paper last week...

In my city, some people have bought "cat condos" and put them on their property. It gives the ferals some shelter, it makes them easy to feed and makes them easier to catch for TRN. In a sense, it's counter productive, right? You're feeding/sheltering individuals. They're going to live longer lives and produce healthier litters, and there is no way you can fix them all, especially in my city. TNR is new and I don't know how involved they are. Also, there are no low cost spay/neuter programs in the province. The SPCA has a program where you can fix an animal for $50 or less, but you need to be under a certain income to qualify.

There are 6+ "wandering" cats on my street alone. None have collars... saw one with a flea collar once, but that doesn't count. There is also a cat around that a family had "taken responsibility for" a few months ago. I saw it last week and he still had his balls. *headdesk*

It's not so counter productive as you may think. Feeding colonies congregate the cats in one place. A big myth surrounding feral cats is their potential damage to local bird populations. If the cats are being fed, they are not eating the birds.
 

Armymutt25A

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I'm more concerned about the damage they do to human health and the injury they cause to cats who have responsible owners. My ex-girlfriend had a cat attack hers while it was on the fenced-in patio at her apartment. I've found cat feces in my yard.
 

bbeventer

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It's not so counter productive as you may think. Feeding colonies congregate the cats in one place. A big myth surrounding feral cats is their potential damage to local bird populations. If the cats are being fed, they are not eating the birds.
I may have to disagree with this. My reasoning behind that is, I am thinking of New England's problem with deer. They have no hunting laws, and many people feed the local deer population corn, this congregates the deer in residential areas which also brings in diseases like lyme. This is one reason why lyme disease is on the rise.

You could argue that the congregation of the deer gives local conversationalist easy access to the deer to sterilize them (I believe the are currently doing so through drug intervention) but the population on a whole is so great that individuals slip through conservation measures leading to an increase of population.

I believe this can also be applied to the feral cat population. That even if cats are being congregated in one area by being fed to potentially be S/N it does not eliminate the fact that the population as a whole is very large and that in the mean time these critters are being fed and reproducing and that inevitably individuals will slip through.
 

vetme

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NAVMEC is reworking the "roadmap" to veterinary education. They are accepting feedback and commentary on the draft until the end of next month, I think. The link to the draft and commentary page below:
http://www.aavmc.org/navmec.htm
 

futurevet3000

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This is really interesting and I'm glad I can actually use something from the animal ethics course I took this quarter. The following quote is from the article in the original post:



Something we learned in my animal ethics class is that in order for a program of euthanizing these animals to actually have an effect on the population, 70% of the population must be euthanized. This is because of a phenomenon called the "vacuum effect." If you start eliminating these animals and don't get rid of 70% of them, it actually has the opposite effect. Once you get rid of some of the animals, there is less competition for resources and therefore the animals that remain are healthier and stronger. They are then able to have bigger and healthier litters, resulting in more animals, and the problem continues. The same is true of TNR programs. If 70% of the animals aren't caught and neutered, then these programs can have the opposite of the intended effects.

Not sure if that made any sense the way I explained it but I find it fascinating.
I am very excited to see a thread like this for us to get our brains working for some upcoming interviews! Definitely a great place to come and formulate good opinions. I am so jealous Elliegirl that you had an animal ethics course, that sounds so cool. One of the downfalls of going to a super small liberal arts college, no such course ...
 
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I believe this can also be applied to the feral cat population. That even if cats are being congregated in one area by being fed to potentially be S/N it does not eliminate the fact that the population as a whole is very large and that in the mean time these critters are being fed and reproducing and that inevitably individuals will slip through.
There are some large colonies in my area that are being managed well and producing very few kittens. The majority of those kittens are trapped, socialized, and adopted out... thus not adding to the actual population of the colony. Cats that have been fixed and released are ear-tipped, so the caretakers know exactly who has and hasn't been given the snip, and it's obvious if a new, unaltered cat shows up.

With large colonies, I think it's generally customary to spay and neuter in large numbers (we have clinics that do this), so you don't end up with a massive feeding-related population boom. It probably wouldn't be a great idea to start feeding a large colony while attempting to alter one cat at a time, but if you manage to catch everyone relatively quickly, the population shouldn't increase by much.

While I'm opposed to killing ferals, and believe that TNR offers an option that (if done correctly) is both more effective and more humane... my biggest problem with the Nebraska study is the fact that they advocate the use of crush and leghold traps as being "humane" (which they aren't), and the authors go so far as to suggest that such methods are in line with the AVMA's position on feral cats (which, again, they aren't). The authors also seem to have a relatively poor understanding of TNR and its intentions.

And, having spent one (very unpleasant) year at said University, the biggest problem they have is their students. If they'd make more of an effort to crack down on all the students who are sneaking kittens in at the beginning of the year only to abandon them, intact, at the end, they wouldn't have such a problem with feral cats.

Feral cats can be an issue feces-wise, but these cats are generally petrified of humans and won't approach them. If someone is attacked by a cat, odds are, it's either a stray or a free-roaming owned cat. (We had a lovely neighbor once who, when their cat began displaying bizarre and aggressive behaviors, opened the door and gave kitty the boot. Kitty then followed me home from a babysitting job, and proceeded to maul the living daylights out of my father and I. When we finally tracked down the owners, they were like, "Uh... yeah. She started doing that two months ago. That's why we put her outside." FAIL. :thumbdown:)
 

bbeventer

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Found this to be an interesting article:

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=17347
Interesting... “The biggest fear,” Wilson wrote, “ ... is that we may be pricing a veterinary degree out of reach for many talented, hard-working students ... ”

I wonder if anyone has found any correlation between the amount of applicants for schools nation wide and tuition cost. Sure does not seem so with schools like CSU claiming that 1700+ applicants applied to there school alone this cycle.
 

twelvetigers

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Same sort of thing happened in Oklahoma, but with equine dentistry. Of course it passed, because vets are just greedy and definitely NOT because it's a bad idea for laypeople to use stuff like xylazine... *sigh*
 

HopefulAg

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Yah, for some reason vets get some wicked bad PR. Haven't quite figured that out.

I think it's a vocal minority thing, or a lot of people are lying to our faces. 'Most loved profession' indeed. What's that say about the other guys? :smuggrin:
 

sumstorm

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Interesting... “The biggest fear,” Wilson wrote, “ ... is that we may be pricing a veterinary degree out of reach for many talented, hard-working students ... ”

I wonder if anyone has found any correlation between the amount of applicants for schools nation wide and tuition cost. Sure does not seem so with schools like CSU claiming that 1700+ applicants applied to there school alone this cycle.

I don't know that a correlation at that level would show that talented, hard working students aren't applying. It could easily be that they are not applying at all, and that there is a bottom level at which students decide 'I'm able to afford the costs of vet school' and apply, often without regard to costs (as suggested by the 'can I afford this' posts after acceptance each year on SDN.) I know in my graduating class there were 15 out of 17 individuals that had all the pre-reqs, experience hours, and GPA's to apply that didn't because of financial concerns. Several (7) applied to human med and all got in (human med was better about waiving app fees), but only 4 accepted. I have a feeling most universities don't track stats like that. The only reason my college did was for advertising purposes; extremly high rates of putting applicants into professional schools.
 

rosyreef

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I understand there are proper ways of transporting pets; however, this woman sent a puppy in a tightly sealed package and told postal workers to "be careful" because the package was "so delicate" and to ignore any sounds coming from it because it contained a robot. The puppy had no food or water, and the holes she put into the box were taped over. Some people....! Awesome as well that she's now demanding a refund for the $22 she paid to mail the puppy.. moron. :mad:

http://www.startribune.com/local/115011544.html
 

Bigcatlover

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http://www.vimeo.com/18886707

CAPS vs Bauck - Woman who ran the largest puppy mill in the states walked away with just a slap on the wrist.

Anyone know what people can do to help stop this sort of thing? How can we give the USDA a real kick in the ass to make some changes not just for breeding facilities but for the treatment of all animals....This sort of thing is just so frustrating
 

vetme

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I understand there are proper ways of transporting pets; however, this woman sent a puppy in a tightly sealed package and told postal workers to "be careful" because the package was "so delicate" and to ignore any sounds coming from it because it contained a robot. The puppy had no food or water, and the holes she put into the box were taped over. Some people....! Awesome as well that she's now demanding a refund for the $22 she paid to mail the puppy.. moron. :mad:

http://www.startribune.com/local/115011544.html
Wow, she has got to be mentally ill or just plain stupid.
 
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NStarz

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Thankfully, the Utah bill was shot down (or at least watered down enough so that it's no longer legal to shoot a feral cat. Hello?? Outdoor house cats?)

Anyway...here's this new article from both VINnews and DVM360. Thoughts?

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=17622
 

sumstorm

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Thankfully, the Utah bill was shot down (or at least watered down enough so that it's no longer legal to shoot a feral cat. Hello?? Outdoor house cats?)
In some places, an owned animal must be on leash or contained on private property.

I wouldn't feel responsible if my animals harmed an owned cat that came into my yard; owned cats belong in their owners yard, not my yard causing stress for my pets. I miscarried 5 years ago likely due to toxo resulting from owned cats using my garden as a toileting site. My cats are indoors with access to a porch and supervised time in a contained outdoor play area. I don't fault farmers for shooting dogs that run their livestock, or hunters for shooting dogs running deer (both of which are legal in many places), so I have a hard time thinking that a cat off it's owner property and impacting the ecosystems in the area.
 

l2vet

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The people using ferals as target practice haven't been deterred by felony laws yet, and I think most people for whom shooting ferals is a legitimate way of keeping their farms and livestock safe and disease-free are far too busy to sit on their porch with the proverbial rifle across their knees, waiting for a feral kitty/dog to walk by.
 
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NStarz

NStarz

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You definitely make a good point Sumstorm, but I have to think about my own cat. He is a skittish lunatic who is indoor only. If my pet sitter were to let him out by mistake, he would not behave like a normal cat and would probably act feral (he hates everyone except my family and, surprisingly, his vet). I'm sure this applies to other kitties as well. Animals get out, things happen. I would hate for someone's dog or cat to get killed because it wandered into someone's yard when it got lost.
 

Minnerbelle

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You definitely make a good point Sumstorm, but I have to think about my own cat. He is a skittish lunatic who is indoor only. If my pet sitter were to let him out by mistake, he would not behave like a normal cat and would probably act feral (he hates everyone except my family and, surprisingly, his vet). I'm sure this applies to other kitties as well. Animals get out, things happen. I would hate for someone's dog or cat to get killed because it wandered into someone's yard when it got lost.
Well if it comes down to it. Posting a bunch of "lost cat" posters with a high enough reward for safe return might deter mean neighbors from shooting your cat :rolleyes:.

In a lot of cities and suburbs, aren't there laws that say you can't shoot guns willy nilly within city limits?
 
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NStarz

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Well if it comes down to it. Posting a bunch of "lost cat" posters with a high enough reward for safe return might deter mean neighbors from shooting your cat :rolleyes:.

In a lot of cities and suburbs, aren't there laws that say you can't shoot guns willy nilly within city limits?
Probably in cities and suburbs, but I'm speaking hypothetically if I were to live in a rural area.
 

Chinola

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This thought isn't completely related since this is the USA but when I was in South Africa they told us that any dogs or cats are shot. Dogs are shot if they're seen in any of the national parks or game parks. Cats are shot if they're seen out and about at all. Unless they're in a township or the big cities they will be shot. This is because they can and do breed with the African wildcat and that messes up the species. Makes sense but the idea of shooting dogs and cats willy nilly was surprising at first!

Sorry for the hijacking! Just felt like adding my random fact :p
 

sumstorm

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Animals get out, things happen. I would hate for someone's dog or cat to get killed because it wandered into someone's yard when it got lost.
Yes, things happen, but that same cat could kill itself on a fence, get hit by a car, end up trapped, etc. It's sad, but it is part of owning a pet.

I do understand the concern; my house has double door/gate systems, plus all the animals are trained to wait at doors until cued to go through (even the cats), and are trained to come when called back to a door. Even all the outside gates have padlocks on them, so there are no accidentally opened gates.

However, at this juncture in my life, after miscarrying I have far less empathy for escaped animals in my yard. Maybe that is wrong of me, but whoever let those cats wander weren't there to pay the bills or deal with the consequences. Now, having said that, I have escorted a couple of escaped animals home, particularly those with collars and ID tags.

On a similar thread, my father called me last night to ask about a canine in his yard. It was acting odd. They have been having coyote attacks near the house (within 50 feet on their dogs and cats) so he was actually worried that this canine was a coyote that had rabies because of the behavior, but at the same time, he wasn't absolutly positive it wasn't a neighbor's canine. He could see there wasn't a collar on it, but couldn't get a clear enough visual to be absolutly certain it was a pet/coyote (and sometimes it just isn't possible to tell.) I feel that if that was someone's pet, it was incredibly unfair of them to put my parents through the stress and anxiety of worrying about thier livestock and pets; at minimum the pet should have ID on it (though I do realize it is possible for an animal to lose its ID as well, but often the escaped animal didn't have ID either.)
 

vetme

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In some places, an owned animal must be on leash or contained on private property.

I wouldn't feel responsible if my animals harmed an owned cat that came into my yard; owned cats belong in their owners yard, not my yard causing stress for my pets. I miscarried 5 years ago likely due to toxo resulting from owned cats using my garden as a toileting site. My cats are indoors with access to a porch and supervised time in a contained outdoor play area. I don't fault farmers for shooting dogs that run their livestock, or hunters for shooting dogs running deer (both of which are legal in many places), so I have a hard time thinking that a cat off it's owner property and impacting the ecosystems in the area.
I agree here. Shooting animals that are a threat to livestock or other pets is a normal practice in rural OK/KS At least is was on our farm.
 

AHorseOffCourse

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