Vote for Mitt Romney...the opponent thinks our success is not because of hardwrk

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That's a pretty f'd up way to run a country's healthcare system. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.

If only there were some sort of system where a bunch of people put money in every month and if one of them got sick, the system would cover a certain amount of expenses.......:oops:

The problem is that no matter how you slice it, quality medical care is expensive. Look at a typical surgery. At minimum you've gotta pay the hourly rate for an anesthesiologist, a surgeon, a circulator, scrub tech, and possibly a PA, RNFA, or 2nd surgeon, and a cleaning crew. Then there's the instruments and materials used, the actual OR space, and all the things you need to keep the OR sterile and uncontaminated. The price skyrockets form there if you need implants for a knee or an advanced microscope for a brain tumor. The problem comes from the fact that insurance companies are like a union in that they can collectively bargain for the patients as a whole while we cannot do the same the same thing with them. There needs to be some sort of oversight to make sure everyone gets paid a "fair" wage for what they do.

While it's very unfortunate that if you don't have insurance you might lose your house or not have that procedure it's the type of threat that people need in order to understand that health insurance should be a priority in their lives like food, clothing, and shelter. High deductible plans, low monthly payment are readily available so that in case of a catastrophe you're only out 10k or so and you're life isn't completely ruined.

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Let me use another analogy. A kid asks his dad, who works at the gas station for $9.50/hr, "dad, why can't I have a lambo for my 16th birthday?".

Even at whole sale the dad could never afford it because the costs of the materials plus labor are too expensive. In the US health system we operate as if it's economically possible to buy everyone in the country a lambo... maybe even a few of them. The impracticality of this is evidenced by the article that showed that physician compensation only make up ~6-8% of health care spending. Not a lot of room to squeeze labor to diminish costs.

But my point was that on the free market, where demand is inelastic, physicians could most likely do well for themselves. I'm thankful that some smart person thought of insurance plans. Like the automobile, the technological breakthrough was impressive, but figuring out how people can afford it was genius.




That's a pretty f'd up way to run a country's healthcare system. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.
 
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That's a pretty f'd up way to run a country's healthcare system. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.

I agree. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event, but frankly it isn't the physicians that are bankrupting the patients. Why is Mirena IUD $750 here, but $250 in Canada. As another physician noted on the thread, this occurs with tens of thousands of drugs. Prices here in general are outrageous. Physician compensation has significantly gone down, but health care costs have ballooned. This clearly means that are more important cost cutting measures that need to take place other than salaries (only 8.6% of the pie).

I understand that getting an aneurysm clipped is very expensive for the patient.
It shouldn't be. But people fail to recognize that clipping an aneurysm is very expensive for me as well. If i'm treating a medicare patient with a big aneurysm I actually often lose money on the case. That means for several hours of work I actually take a net loss on the case. I treat them because I agree that people deserve to be treated, but it's simply ridiculous.


:laugh:

Dream on.

No, as I said earlier, 20-30 years ago neurosurgeons did in fact make almost double what I do now. My compensation has gone down, yet health care costs have still ballooned. The number of neurosurgeons has barely increased, yet the demand and population have greatly increased. The number of residents and prices have been artificially manipulated. That's why the average neurosurgeon is over 50 and we see fewer and fewer medical students entering the field. 20% of neurosurgeons are over age 60. 50% are over 50. We now have 30 million newly insured patients. I hope you recognize the magnitude of this shortage.
 
That's a pretty f'd up way to run a country's healthcare system. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.

Those who own lifeboats can't decide the price of a seat? You morally bankrupt Commie.
 
Before I got into med school I made about $89K/yr after bonuses. Seeing ~30% of that just evaporate in taxes was absolutely heart breaking. If you have not earned a sizeable check in your life that was subsequently taxed to hell, don't comment on how much a physician should be taxed.

I don't know how anyone in their right mind getting into this profession can support Obama or socialized medicine. The students at my school who support the ACA are by and large A) spoiled rich kids who have no clue how to earn an honest check, B) students who have no clue what line of work they are getting themselves into and the hard work it entails or C) buffoons who dont mind earning $100K doing urgent care at Walmart.

Oh yes, and I voted for Obama in 2008 and I regret it 100%. I like the man in general but at this point he has already cost me thousands of dollars (see graduate student loan interest hike) and may cost me perhaps millions in the future.
 
I don't know how anyone in their right mind getting into this profession can support Obama or socialized medicine. The students at my school who support the ACA are by and large A) spoiled rich kids who have no clue how to earn an honest check, B) students who have no clue what line of work they are getting themselves into and the hard work it entails or C) buffoons who dont mind earning $100K doing urgent care at Walmart.

I think there are several of those just in this thread.
 
Why is Mirena IUD $750 here, but $250 in Canada. As another physician noted on the thread, this occurs with tens of thousands of drugs. Prices here in general are outrageous.

Surely you're aware of the different malpractice and product liability legal climate in Canada, right?
 
Surely you're aware of the different malpractice and product liability legal climate in Canada, right?

Yes, but those don't entirely account for the difference. Profit margins are way too high... Too much corruption here. And yes, malpractice and product liability are also things that need to change here. Our incredibly litigious climate has created a system in which people hope to be victimized, as it surely means a large payout.
 
You and me both, Bird. He was pretty even keel in his campaign and didn't seem extreme at all. I felt like he was going to bring the country together, mend the partisan bickering, and move the US forward into a galvanized future full of hard work, reaching tough goals, helping out companies via common sense reforms/tax rollbacks, listening to business people, getting public schools serious about math, reading, and science etc. etc. etc.

You know... kinda like late 1950's-America-is-great-Space-race type of administration.... now I regret voting for him.


Oh yes, and I voted for Obama in 2008 and I regret it 100%. I like the man in general but at this point he has already cost me thousands of dollars (see graduate student loan interest hike) and may cost me perhaps millions in the future.
 
And yet he will win again. Just in time for more quantitative easing and another "stimulus". Can't wait for the foreclosure property death spiral to wind up again.

Not a chance. Unemployment up again for July. Absolutely nothing is going in a positive direction.
 
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I wish I shared your optimism.

Hopefully some voters will be turned off by the "race to the bottom" ad campaign tactic. Have you heard Obama's recent claim about Romney? Romney caused the death of a steelworker's wife. :wtf:
 
Hopefully some voters will be turned off by the "race to the bottom" ad campaign tactic. Have you heard Obama's recent claim about Romney? Romney caused the death of a steelworker's wife. :wtf:

Sadly, there is no way in hell Romney will be elected president. America has decided that it hates rich people and Romney pretty much put a sawed off into his mouth by not releasing his tax returns.
 
You and me both, Bird. He was pretty even keel in his campaign and didn't seem extreme at all. I felt like he was going to bring the country together, mend the partisan bickering, and move the US forward into a galvanized future full of hard work, reaching tough goals, helping out companies via common sense reforms/tax rollbacks, listening to business people, getting public schools serious about math, reading, and science etc. etc. etc.

You know... kinda like late 1950's-America-is-great-Space-race type of administration.... now I regret voting for him.

Yappy, yup this is exactly how I felt. You gotta give it to him though, that was one hell of a pitch he gave us in 2008.
 
Yappy, yup this is exactly how I felt. You gotta give it to him though, that was one hell of a pitch he gave us in 2008.

How could y'all have been so easily fooled? Smooth talking, all style but no substance, never ever had a real job in his life, a couple months in the Senate before he started campaigning for president and zero track record in the Senate except for voting "present". What were you thinking?
 
How could y'all have been so easily fooled? Smooth talking, all style but no substance, never ever had a real job in his life, a couple months in the Senate before he started campaigning for president and zero track record in the Senate except for voting "present". What were you thinking?

Perhaps that Bush was a tool, that McCain would be more of the same, and that Sarah Palin was a gutwrenchingly gobsmackingly terrifying prospect?

The GOP elected Obama by putting forth that ridiculous circus.
 
Perhaps that Bush was a tool, that McCain would be more of the same, and that Sarah Palin was a gutwrenchingly gobsmackingly terrifying prospect?

The GOP elected Obama by putting forth that ridiculous circus.

And they're gonna do it again
 
Pretty much nailed it. It's not like I dislike any of them personally (after all I don't even know them) but Palin was such a bad choice. Professionally I think that US VP or President would have been over her abilities. She also had an air of self importance (still does) and immaturity to her.

I have always respected McCain because of his service and serious demeanor; however, he seemed pretty hawkish and I wasn't a fan the direction the country was headed under Bush.

As much as I don't like Obama who knows how we would be under McCain/Palin. I'm going to vote R this time. Who ever wins I hope they earn it.

EDIT: The best thing that the GOP could do is get rid of the ridiculous political "celebs" and start taking things seriously. Kinda like Paul Ryan. There is too much unprofessionalism/small world view/ selfish outlook in the GOP - comes across like a child or overly emotional. I guess I feel like they have good values/goals but they need to mature their tone.


Perhaps that Bush was a tool, that McCain would be more of the same, and that Sarah Palin was a gutwrenchingly gobsmackingly terrifying prospect?

The GOP elected Obama by putting forth that ridiculous circus.
 
And they're gonna do it again

Sure looks that way. :(



yappy said:
I have always respected McCain because of his service and serious demeanor; however, he seemed pretty hawkish and I wasn't a fan the direction the country was headed under Bush.

The more I learned about McCain the less I liked him as a human being. Looking back at his life, it appears that about the only honorable thing he did was get shot down and be a POW. Most of the rest has been bad decisions and underachievement sprinkled with a healthy dose of petty spite.

Romney is a far, far better candidate and person than McCain was. And I don't really think Romney is all that great. The only thing I'm really sure of is that he won't appoint any more Kagans or Sotomayors. I don't think either he or Obama have what it would take to make meaningful and good economic and fiscal reforms.
 
Before I got into med school I made about $89K/yr after bonuses. Seeing ~30% of that just evaporate in taxes was absolutely heart breaking. If you have not earned a sizeable check in your life that was subsequently taxed to hell, don't comment on how much a physician should be taxed.

I don't know how anyone in their right mind getting into this profession can support Obama or socialized medicine. The students at my school who support the ACA are by and large A) spoiled rich kids who have no clue how to earn an honest check, B) students who have no clue what line of work they are getting themselves into and the hard work it entails or C) buffoons who dont mind earning $100K doing urgent care at Walmart.

Oh yes, and I voted for Obama in 2008 and I regret it 100%. I like the man in general but at this point he has already cost me thousands of dollars (see graduate student loan interest hike) and may cost me perhaps millions in the future.

Alot of C. Plus some young well intentioned do-gooders who truly believe that socialism just hasn't worked yet because the right people have yet to be in charge.
 
This whole thread is kind of silly. 90% of SDN would vote republican. The only reason it doesnt seem that way is that the 10% have more passion to post about why the rest of SDN is wrong so it gets misrepresented as closer to a weaker R majority.
 
This whole thread is kind of silly. 90% of SDN would vote republican. The only reason it doesnt seem that way is that the 10% have more passion to post about why the rest of SDN is wrong so it gets misrepresented as closer to a weaker R majority.

I bet you'd find a lot lower % of republican voters in the pre-med forums than you would 'round these parts.

The cold, cruel world hasn't beaten as much of the youthfully naive idealism out of them yet. :)
 
This is so true. Almost all the premeds at my UG were in league with the liberal professors when it came to politics and more specifically - the socialization of medicine.

I've gotten in countless discussions on the subject of weather health care is a right or not. I give up when the convo digresses to me being painted as heartless or the all too common reply they give "well education is a right too why can't health care be?" at which point I realize it's hopeless lol.



I bet you'd find a lot lower % of republican voters in the pre-med forums than you would 'round these parts.

The cold, cruel world hasn't beaten as much of the youthfully naive idealism out of them yet. :)
 
This is so true. Almost all the premeds at my UG were in league with the liberal professors when it came to politics and more specifically - the socialization of medicine.

I've gotten in countless discussions on the subject of weather health care is a right or not. I give up when the convo digresses to me being painted as heartless or the all too common reply they give "well education is a right too why can't health care be?" at which point I realize it's hopeless lol.

To that question I answer: of course healthcare is a right but that doesn't mean that providers of said healthcare have to agree to the lowest feasible payment for their services.

Couple of questions I have

1: why don't physicians unionize? I despise unions due to my previous career but they sure know how to get what they want.
2: I was told yesterday by med student whose father is an anesthesiologist that the ASA is democratic on the east coast and Republican in the midwest. Is there any truth to this and, if so, how can the members of ASA act in unison politically? (i.e. voting Obama out)
 
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True they are naive but most of them wont vote anyway, the elections are usually scheduled at the time they get their MCAT scores back and have to re-study.
 
To that question I answer: of course healthcare is a right but that doesn't mean that providers of said healthcare have to agree to the lowest feasible payment for their services.

Couple of questions I have

1: why don't physicians unionize? I despise unions due to my previous career but they sure know how to get what they want.
2: I was told yesterday by med student whose father is an anesthesiologist that the ASA is democratic on the east coast and Republican in the midwest. Is there any truth to this and, if so, how can the members of ASA act in unison politically? (i.e. voting Obama out)

ASAPAC actually donates money to candidates of both parties. Some things do cross party lines, although you wouldn't always know it. A couple years ago, my group from Georgia at the ASA Legislative Conference sat down with John Lewis, a liberal Democrat if there ever was one. He was very pleasant to talk to, extremly knowledgable and well-versed on the issues, and in the end, he wants what we would like to be able to offer - high quality healthcare accessible to all. We had a nice chat about how it is more and more difficult to take care of Medicare/caid patients because it actually costs us money to do so, and that although many anesthesiologists don't have the ability to walk away from Medicare patients due to hospital affiliations, those that can often do, just like many other physicians in other specialties who limit or refuse to take Medicare patients altogether.
 
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To that question I answer: of course healthcare is a right

Stop right there - healthcare is not a right. Nobody has a right to anybody else's labor.

Rights are things you can do, or not have done to you - never things you can take.


Some people disagree, and think everyone has a right to take or be given food, shelter, heat, education, health care if they can't acquire it for themselves. These things when given are the definition of charity, when taken are the definition of theft. In neither case is the recipient exercising a right, however.

You can argue that providing all of these things for people who can't acquire them through their own labor are worthy charitable goals, and I would agree with you, with certain limits and caveats.

But let's not dilute what we mean by human rights.
 
Stop right there - healthcare is not a right. Nobody has a right to anybody else's labor.

Rights are things you can do, or not have done to you - never things you can take.


Some people disagree, and think everyone has a right to take or be given food, shelter, heat, education, health care if they can't acquire it for themselves. These things when given are the definition of charity, when taken are the definition of theft. In neither case is the recipient exercising a right, however.

You can argue that providing all of these things for people who can't acquire them through their own labor are worthy charitable goals, and I would agree with you, with certain limits and caveats.

But let's not dilute what we mean by human rights.

Excellent post.
 
Stop right there - healthcare is not a right. Nobody has a right to anybody else's labor.

Rights are things you can do, or not have done to you - never things you can take.


Some people disagree, and think everyone has a right to take or be given food, shelter, heat, education, health care if they can't acquire it for themselves. These things when given are the definition of charity, when taken are the definition of theft. In neither case is the recipient exercising a right, however.

You can argue that providing all of these things for people who can't acquire them through their own labor are worthy charitable goals, and I would agree with you, with certain limits and caveats.

But let's not dilute what we mean by human rights.

This definition of the social contract maybe makes sense in some theoretical Lockeian utopia where everyone actually has exactly the same opportunities as everyone else at birth. Not so much in a world where Steve Jobs can make a fortune off the labor of some $1.50/hr Chinese indentured servant while still getting hailed as some visionary liberal. Or where the average net worth of a US congressman is $5.9 million.

I wonder, though, by your definition do you consider taxes to be theft/charity unless you get back exactly what you put in?
 
Stop right there - healthcare is not a right. Nobody has a right to anybody else's labor.

Rights are things you can do, or not have done to you - never things you can take.


Some people disagree, and think everyone has a right to take or be given food, shelter, heat, education, health care if they can't acquire it for themselves. These things when given are the definition of charity, when taken are the definition of theft. In neither case is the recipient exercising a right, however.

You can argue that providing all of these things for people who can't acquire them through their own labor are worthy charitable goals, and I would agree with you, with certain limits and caveats.

But let's not dilute what we mean by human rights.

I understand what you're saying. The point that essentially "taking" healthcare services is akin to stealing resonates with me; it stands clear that no physician should lose money on services provided. However, imo we start to get into murky legal waters when it is said that individuals who are sick do not have a right to be treated medically. This country was founded on citizens' rights to defend themselves ("to bear arms, to due process", etc). IMO, and I not trying to be an armchair lawyer here, this extends to their right to defend themselves from death and illness... but I agree that we need to move in the direction that favors us, which would be in the direction of your interpretation.

ASAPAC actually donates money to candidates of both parties. Some things do cross party lines, although you woudn't always know it. A couple years ago, my group from Georgia at the ASA Legislative Conference sat down with John Lewis, a liberal Democrat if there ever was one. He was very pleasant to talk to, extremly knowledgable and well-versed on the issues, and in the end, he wants what we would like to be able to offer - high quality healthcare accessible to all. We had a nice chat about how it is more and more difficult to take care of Medicare/caid patients because it actually costs us money to do so, and that although many anesthesiologists don't have the ability to walk away from Medicare patients due to hospital affiliations, those that can often do, just like many other physicians in other specialties who limit or refuse to take Medicare patients altogether.

Thank you for the clarification.
 
That's a pretty f'd up way to run a country's healthcare system. Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.

That's like saying "death shouldn't be so final."

You liberals just don't get it do you?
 
I wonder, though, by your definition do you consider taxes to be theft/charity unless you get back exactly what you put in?

Theft - no. Taxes, in my utopian fantasyland :) are paid willingly by citizens who have meaningful representation in government. I don't enjoy paying taxes but I don't resent it either; they're the price of civilization. It's waste and mismanagement that upset me, along with the accusation that I'm not paying my fair share. Poor math skills, such as those possessed by people who think current spending patterns can possibly be financed simply by taxing rich people, also offend me.

Charity - sure, to some extent anyway. I don't see this as a bad thing. I don't want to live in a country where kids are malnourished and 80 year old geezers are homeless. The able-bodied 30 year old ne'er-do-well ex-con high school dropout welfare bum can get evicted to a culvert down by the river for all I care, so long as his trash bag full of belongings doesn't clog the pipe. There's a place for tax-funded social safety nets, though we can argue endlessly about what form that should take.


pgg said:
Getting sick shouldn't be a bankrupting event. And getting sick shouldn't be a profit opportunity for the healthcare machine.

That's like saying "death shouldn't be so final."

:rolleyes: The difference is that there aren't any options after dying, but we do have many options for better managing health insurance. The current system, in which insurance companies extract massive profits in exchange for essentially deliberate failure to actually improve or contribute to actual health care, is broken.

You liberals just don't get it do you?

:laugh:

Yeah, I'm a liberal all right. I'm the kind of liberal bleeding heart do-gooder who has a general fondness for civil rights. All of them, and I do mean all of them - including one that a voting majority of "liberals" are constantly attempting to infringe. ;) From there, most of my political views diverge a bit from the typical Democrat platform - but don't let that stop you from flinging around "liberal" like it's some kind of dirty word.

As I mentioned, health care isn't a human right. Despite that, I do favor a certain degree of government subsidy to put very basic health insurance within every working citizen's reach, and I would gladly pay taxes to support a rational and limited state or federal system.

Just because "rational" and "limited" aren't good adjectives for what we got with the ACA doesn't mean that all government-administered and/or tax-funded health insurance programs are the work of the devil.
 
Accept it guys, this country is going down no matter who gets elected. The general population is way too spoiled. We expect us to be handed free things, while not doing any work ourselves. Kids today think they are the coolest brightest kids and that they are better than other countries. So many on SDN support romney b/c we are the exceptions, we actually work hard to get where we are. People today complain about asians being so good at so many things and they say its not fair. well that's because they work hard and hard work does get you to places.
 
Even though I agree with the voting R part of your post I feel like people always say this kind of thing: "Worlds going to hell in a hand basket". It's been said for so long, by every generation, it starts to lose its persuasiveness.

We still do great things:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YqNoLkmxE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


Accept it guys, this country is going down no matter who gets elected. The general population is way too spoiled. We expect us to be handed free things, while not doing any work ourselves. Kids today think they are the coolest brightest kids and that they are better than other countries. So many on SDN support romney b/c we are the exceptions, we actually work hard to get where we are. People today complain about asians being so good at so many things and they say its not fair. well that's because they work hard and hard work does get you to places.
 
Even though I agree with the voting R part of your post I feel like people always say this kind of thing: "Worlds going to hell in a hand basket". It's been said for so long, by every generation, it starts to lose its persuasiveness.

Yes, the kids'll be alright. :)

Burdened by massive unnecessary debt accrued by their idiot elders, perhaps underemployed and with a bleaker economic future ... but morally / ethically just fine. Probably superior to their scornful elders, I think.
 
Lol, you're forgetting the tax credits people in this bracket get which often nullify any taxes paid. Much of that payroll tax also goes into their own social security and medicare. It doesn't matter if they pay 1$. They should be paying something if they are using public goods. But my issue isn't so much that the bottom 50% should pay more taxes, it's that my tax rate is criticized and targeted for a raise. Ideally all citizens would pay less in income tax. Historically income tax was illegal in the United States. Contrary to popular belief, we do in fact earn revenue from other sources. I'm most upset though that my additional taxes are given to fuel wasteful spending. Not another percent should raised on income tax rates until they fix the government's spending problem.

The government behaves like a teenager with its first credit card.



I laugh when people bring up Romney and outsourcing. Are you aware that Obama's right hand man on jobs (Chair of Council on Jobs), Jeffrey Immelt, was the champion of outsourcing? Do you understand why businesses outsource? It's because they can be profitable elsewhere. The Dems get so upset when businesses move overseas and outsource jobs. It's like a betrayal to them. There is a reason for it. The small business climate in America is toxic. Miscellaneous taxes are overwhelming for most business owners. Add to that cheaper labor and the new requirement to provide health care for employees and you have a recipe for disaster. It's not disloyalty to this country. It's common sense. If I were a small business owner and it was financially smart to move overseas, I would too.



Temporarily suspending my rule for very little to no commenting on non-pre-med type forums to say the following:

The quoted response (above) is BEAUTIFUL. Truth usually is a beautiful thing. I mean every point dead on target!
 
My niece has an I pad, I phone, and both parents make 80k working comfortable jobs. They live in the same neighborhood my in-laws have spent their whole life working up to. This is the condition of most people I know. I'd say kids are fine as long as you don't plan to have a factory job that pays 50k, family benefits, and a pension after your 25 years that falls into your lap because you graduated high school.

Besides. My bro is all over solving the worlds energy problems. In some time energy will be as free as the air we breath.

Today's poverty was the 70's middle class.

Yes, the kids'll be alright. :)

Burdened by massive unnecessary debt accrued by their idiot elders, perhaps underemployed and with a bleaker economic future ... but morally / ethically just fine. Probably superior to their scornful elders, I think.
 
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Besides. My bro is all over solving the worlds energy problems. In some time energy will be as free as the air we breath.

I'm not so optimistic about that.


They used to say atomic energy would be too cheap to meter.

Yesterday the NRC said it will stop issuing permits for new plants, and stop license extensions for existing plants because of waste management issues.

So. Full speed ahead burning black stuff.
 
Today's poverty was the 70's middle class.

I agree with that. It's amazing what people expect as normal standard of living today. Every kid thinks he should have his own car, iphone, macbook, designer clothes, or he's deprived. Multiple that by a few kids, with parents that think giving their kids all that crap is necessary or they're deprived, and you have 30-50% of the people whining on the local/national news about how bad the economy is.

Just growing up in the 80s, we had one car, one TV, didn't get a microwave until I was 10, sharing clothes with 3 siblings, and somehow I survived and wasn't scarred by all that "bad economy".......

Just made me work my butt off for a college scholarship, and then med school.

"The worst thing parents can do is to give their kids everything". -Warren Buffet-
 
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Nice job, bedrock. Sounds like you've done well for yourself. I had a similar childhood in the late 80's. It was freaking awesome but look back we didn't have much. One TV, one car (mom stayed home) and a 1200 sq ft house with one bathroom lol.

It's crazy how different it is today. I know people in their mid 20's buying huge houses that they CAN afford because they have some sweet gigs. They all work hard but the money is there - it wasn't always.

To me the biggest difference between then and now seems to be that people expect everything. Where in other times it seemed to be that you basically picked a few things that were important to you.

I agree with that. It's amazing what people expect as normal standard of living today. Every kid thinks he should have his own car, iphone, macbook, designer clothes, or he's deprived. Multiple that by a few kids, with parents that think giving their kids all that crap is necessary or they're deprived, and you have 30-50% of the people whining on the local/national news about how bad the economy is.

Just growing up in the 80s, we had one car, one TV, didn't get a microwave until I was 10, sharing clothes with 3 siblings, and somehow I survived and wasn't scarred by all that "bad economy".......

Just made me work my butt off for a college scholarship, and then med school.

"The worst thing parents can do is to give their kids everything". -Warren Buffet-
 
What do you guys think of Romney's VP pick Paul Ryan? Do you think it strengthened the republican ticket or diminished it? What do you think of his Ayn Rand POV?

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/viewsday-1.3683911/filler-paul-ryan-ayn-rand-and-the-meaning-of-life-1.3899285

After the midterms, I thought that Obama would win if the economy didn't get visibly worse, and that his republican challenger would win if it did get visibly worse. I've been consistently pessimistic about the economy (still am) and so I have long thought Obama vulnerable.

Nothing since then has changed that. If the economy dives in the next 3 months, Ryan's ideas might be welcome change. If the economy does OK in the next 3 months, Ryan's ideas will probably be viewed as unnecessary. I think the election's close enough that it will hinge on economic reports between now and November.


I've seen him compared to Palin, which I think is ridiculous. Palin was and is an idiot, an anti-intellectual, full of gut-feeling vague buzzword homey donchaknow platitudes, totally unable to respond to any kind of questioning, totally unable to think on her feet. I don't get that impression at all from Ryan. His ideas may or may not deserve criticism, but at least he has ideas, youbetcha.


The furthest the Palin comparisons go is that both VP selections were made by candidates who were behind in the polls, who thought something a little unorthodox might help. Both McCain and Romney have had some trouble motivating the far right base; I think that's actually less of a problem for Romney since the far right hates Obama and wants him gone.

So - for this reason, I am surprised by the Ryan pick. I thought for sure he'd go for someone who'd help him in Virginia or Ohio. It seems an odd risk. Then again, risk assessment and management is exactly what Romney made his fortune doing, so maybe I should have a little faith. :)


As for the influence Ayn Rand had on him - one can appreciate and agree with some of her core messages, such as self reliance, individual reward for individual achievement, personal freedom ... without embracing the cold empty selfish deadness that her philosophy implies.

I suspect there isn't a single doctor on SDN who can read this oft-quoted passage and not have it resonate to some degree:
"I quit when medicine was placed under State control some years ago," said Dr. Hendricks. "Do you know what it takes to perform a brain operation? Do you know the kind of skill it demands, and the years of passionate, merciless, excruciating devotion that go to acquire that skill? That was what I could not place at the disposal of men whose sole qualification to rule me was their capacity to spout the fraudulent generalities that got them elected to the privilege of enforcing their wishes at the point of a gun.

I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward. I observed that in all the discussions that preceded the enslavement of medicine, men discussed everything—except the desires of the doctors. Men considered only the ‘welfare' of the patients, with no thought for those who were to provide it. That a doctor should have any right, desire or choice in the matter, was regarded as irrelevant selfishness; his is not to choose, they said, but ‘to serve.'

That a man who's willing to work under compulsion is too dangerous a brute to entrust with a job in the stockyards—never occurred to those who proposed to help the sick by making life impossible for the healthy. I have often wondered at the smugness at which people assert their right to enslave me, to control my work, to force my will, to violate my conscience, to stifle my mind—yet what is it they expect to depend on, when they lie on an operating table under my hands?

Their moral code has taught them to believe that it is safe to rely on the virtue of their victims. Well, that is the virtue I have withdrawn. Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in the operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it—and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn't."
That character has an angry bitterness which isn't really attractive, but he isn't wrong.


You could ask Palin which philosophers influenced her, and she'd say "all of them" ...

You could ask Palin what she thinks of Ayn Rand, and she'd say "who?" ...

So in that regard at least, the GOP vice presidential candidate this time around is a brilliant improvement. :)
 
I tend to agree with Paul Ryan on a lot of things. Sometimes I don't like his Ryn views because they seem a little extreme; however, he does have some focus on the budgetary issues. That being said - I hope he does realize that the federal government plays by different rules than the average person financially. I cringe when Conservatives compare Washington to a "household" - with a fixed income and liabilities - it will be interesting to see how he see our fiscal challenges as simply a assets and liability sheet or if he will entertain ideas from economists that due justice to the 21st century economy we have today.

I agree with you about Palin. Ryan is a solid guy whose knowledge base is vastly greater than Palin. I look forward to the debates. I expect Ryan to win out over Biden; but, Obama marginally win out over Romney for the presidential debates. Ultimately, a net win for the R's but people will mainly stay on party lines.

I still plan to vote for Romney. I like his VP pick. If I remember right Ryan is for massive cuts and austerity; which does make me a little nervous given what it will do to GPD and how it sunk Japan through the 90's. But ultimately it will up to Romney.
 
Don't worry about Ryan supposedly being for austerity, self-reliance and fiscal restraint. He did after all take SS survivor benefits to attend an out-of-state school, work 20 yrs in a government job, and vote for both the Iraq/Afghan wars and their subsequent continuations, the Bush tax cuts, Medicare Part D, and the bank bailouts.
 
Yeah that Mitt Romney is a great guy, I see why you all want to vote him in, because he's good for America right?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-class-set-back-over-last-decade-report-174840799--sector.html

Goodbye middle class... and according to the independently standing Tax Policy Center, if you're middle class, Romney won't be helping you at all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/mitt-romney-tax-policy-center_n_1792064.html


I really hope you guys understand how much of an underdog the Romney/Ryan ticket is, I'd hate for you to get your hopes up...
 
I really hope you guys understand how much of an underdog the Romney/Ryan ticket is, I'd hate for you to get your hopes up...

I really hope you understand that there isn't a substantial difference in the economic outlook or plan for either candidate. The Democrat / Republican debate is a bitter argument over billions when the problem is trillions.

There are hard times ahead no matter which one gets elected.


I don't like the judges Obama has appointed though, so I'll vote for Romney and hope he doesn't appoint anyone as far right as Sotokaganmayor is left.
 
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