Vote for President

[GravelRider]

Let me ask you some questions to get a gestalt of your pseudo liberal opinion.

Do you come from a rich/upper middle class background? Was your father a physician?

Shouldn't you share your background as well?

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[DrCommonSense]

Lol

Arab immigrants from the Middle East = generally considered "white"

Indians = South Asian = generally considered "Asian"

Here are acceptance rates for various groups for a point of reference:

http://www.aei.org/publication/acce...irmative-discrimination-for-blacks-hispanics/


Here is a great article on the "myth of American meritocracy"

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

By the way, after simple literature searches, it is apparent that Arabs can claim to be URM on application and can be determined by schools on a "case by case" basis

 

[DrCommonSense]

Shouldn't you share your background as well?

Sure I'm a white male who had zero family connections to get into medical school and went to public schools.

I also scored at least 4 points above most of the medical schools I couldn't get into while apparently minorities/women with low MCAT scores but good "interpersonal skills" got into these same schools.

Funny how the "interpersonal skills" seemed to always fall on gender/racial lines though since I never saw a white unconnected male/asian male get in with such low MCAT scores.

And yourself?

 

[GravelRider]

Sure I'm a white male who had zero family connections to get into medical school and went to public schools.

I also scored at least 4 points above most of the medical schools I couldn't get into while apparently minorities/women with low MCAT scores but good "interpersonal skills" got into these same schools.

Funny how the "interpersonal skills" seemed to always fall on gender/racial lines though since I never saw a white unconnected male/asian male get in with such low MCAT scores.

You made a lot of assumptions that I will not get into, nor will I respond to the expected response from you. What I will say is that affirmative action was not a major talking point in the election and I understand that you don't agree with it. It seems as though there are more pressing issues facing the country than whether or not someone gets into medical school because of a perceived superiority based on a multiple choice exam.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Here is what Michael Moore said:

Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair. YEARS of being neglected by both parties, the anger and the need for revenge against the system only grew. Along came a TV star they liked whose plan was to destroy both parties and tell them all "You're fired!" Trump's victory is no surprise. He was never a joke. Treating him as one only strengthened him. He is both a creature and a creation of the media and the media will never own that.

True but I can't get around this video about Michael Moore:

 

[DrCommonSense]

You made a lot of assumptions that I will not get into, nor will I respond to the expected response from you. What I will say is that affirmative action was not a major talking point in the election and I understand that you don't agree with it. It seems as though there are more pressing issues facing the country than whether or not someone gets into medical school because of a perceived superiority based on a multiple choice exam.

LOL always got to love you liberals trying to switch around the discussions when you have proven to be incorrect.

 

[just another mojo maker]

LOL always got to love you liberals trying to switch around the discussions when you have proven to be incorrect.

Truthfully, it is unlikely that a minority student stole your spot at Harvard/Stanford/JHU. You were probably outdone by another white male or female with high standardized test scores. Sucks - but so it goes.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Sure I'm a white male who had zero family connections to get into medical school and went to public schools.

I also scored at least 4 points above most of the medical schools I couldn't get into while apparently minorities/women with low MCAT scores but good "interpersonal skills" got into these same schools.

Funny how the "interpersonal skills" seemed to always fall on gender/racial lines though since I never saw a white unconnected male/asian male get in with such low MCAT scores.

And yourself?

Maybe. Much more likely some perceptive admission interviewers caught that you see people as races/religions and not individuals.

 

[PainDrain]

I actually see Putin being less dishonest than Hillary.

How crazy is that?

RT is controlled by Putin and the NYT/Washington Post/PBS/NBC/etc are controlled by the DNC/billionaire class from America who supported the former "oligarchs" in Russia.

Both are basically equivalent with Putin actually being more patriotic to his own nation and basically being less of a war monger to boot.

DrCommonsense, are you serious? You do realize how bizzaire and contrary to reality your above theory is right?

Let me explain. So you say the American media is controlled by the DNC and the DNC is under the control of oligarchs from Russia to provoke war. Just what the F-ck are you talking about. Do you have any clue? Putin is ruler of the oligarch class in Russia. His biggest backers are the billionaire class. His son-in-law is one of Russia's richest people. He angered many billionaires when he decimated the economy with his Crimea stunt but they still know who controls the show and who can have them taken out at a moments notice.

I realize you have a chubby for Putin but you should do some reading before you open your mouth. He has left a number of people dead in his wake. The guy is a mass murder and takes out anyone who opposes him. But damn, Hillary used that email server so b!tch is going to jail.

Ever heard of the Russian apartment bombings? One guess who did it. It's the same shirtless guy in the poster on your wall.


Also, I seem to recall about 8 US billionaires who basically fund the majority of conservative causes in the US. Ever heard of the Waltons, the Coors, or the Kochs? Oh, I bet they are secret liberals.

 

[Planktonmd]

I actually agree that in a perfect world no one should get a preferential treatment based on color, sex, or ethnicity.
But for this to work we have to live in a society that offers everyone an equal opportunity at the basics of life which should include: food, shelter, education, and health care. This unfortunately is not the case in 21st century America, and no matter how brilliant you are if you are dealt the wrong hand and were born in the wrong set of circumstances, your chances at success are significantly diminished.
This is where the affirmative action came as an attempt to reshuffle the cards, it does not solve the problem but at least it's an attempt.
So instead of focusing on the negatives of affirmative action maybe we should find a way to offer everyone the basics of human dignity, then we will not need affirmative action.

 

[PainDrain]

DrCommonsense. Ever heard of Yuri Shechekochikhin? Roman Tsepov? Alex Litvinenko?

 

[DrCommonSense]

DrCommonsense, are you serious? You do realize how bizzaire and contrary to reality your above theory is right?

Let me explain. So you say the American media is controlled by the DNC and the DNC is under the control of oligarchs from Russia to provoke war. Just what the F-ck are you talking about. Do you have any clue? Putin is ruler of the oligarch class in Russia. His biggest backers are the billionaire class. His son-in-law is one of Russia's richest people. He angered many billionaires when he decimated the economy with his Crimea stunt but they still know who controls the show and who can have them taken out at a moments notice.

I realize you have a chubby for Putin but you should do some reading before you open your mouth. He has left a number of people dead in his wake. The guy is a mass murder and takes out anyone who opposes him. But damn, Hillary used that email server so b!tch is going to jail.

Ever heard of the Russian apartment bombings? One guess who did it. It's the same shirtless guy in the poster on your wall.


Also, I seem to recall about 8 US billionaires who basically fund the majority of conservative causes in the US. Ever heard of the Waltons, the Coors, or the Kochs? Oh, I bet they are secret liberals.

I love how you distort my arguments. Let me break this down to you since your knowledge base is quite low.

1) Western bankers funded Oligarchs in Russia to buy up Oil Assets at pennies on the dollar after fall of Soviet Union. Funding came from Bankers such as George Soros (big time Hillary supporter)

2) Putin (ex KGB) played the game with the oligarchs until obtaining power

3) Putin threw most of the FORMER oligarchs out of Russia and/or into Jail.

4) Bankers such as Soros get their media apparatus to go on a rampage against Putin after Oligarchs are mostly arrested, assets confiscated and thrown out of country. CFR/Kissinger/Soros/etc decided to call Putin a "fascist" for his actions.

5) DNC who is funded by guys like Soros have made a further and further hostile relationship with Russia due to Putin controlling the country despite war not being in the interest of the average American.

Really not that complicated.

Let me know which part you find to be inaccurate and I will easily prove my case at any level.

 

[DrCommonSense]

I actually agree that in a perfect world no one should get a preferential treatment based on color, sex, or ethnicity.
But for this to work we have to live in a society that offers everyone an equal opportunity at the basics of life which should include: food, shelter, education, and health care. This unfortunately is not the case in 21st century America, and no matter how brilliant you are if you are dealt the wrong hand and were born in the wrong set of circumstances, your chances at success are significantly diminished.
This is where the affirmative action came as an attempt to reshuffle the cards, it does not solve the problem but at least it's an attempt.
So instead of focusing on the negatives of affirmative action maybe we should find a way to offer everyone the basics of human dignity, then we will not need affirmative action.

Once again you are side stepping my comments. Why Affirmative Action is extended to people that haven't historically been persecuted in the US?

 

[Planktonmd]

Once again you are side stepping my comments. Why Affirmative Action is extended to people that haven't historically been persecuted in the US?

I am not defending affirmative action or even interested in debating who is benefiting or not benefiting from it!
It was an attempt to treat the symptoms rather than treat the actual problem which is a society that does not offer the basics of human dignity to everyone.
I am simply saying instead of focusing on how bad affirmative action is maybe we should think how every child born in America today could have food, shelter, education and healthcare, If we do that then affirmative action will no longer be needed.

 

[PainDrain]

I love how you distort my arguments. Let me break this down to you since your knowledge base is quite low.

1) Western bankers funded Oligarchs in Russia to buy up Oil Assets at pennies on the dollar after fall of Soviet Union. Funding came from Bankers such as George Soros (big time Hillary supporter)

2) Putin (ex KGB) played the game with the oligarchs until obtaining power

3) Putin threw most of the FORMER oligarchs out of Russia and/or into Jail.

4) Bankers such as Soros get their media apparatus to go on a rampage against Putin after Oligarchs are mostly arrested, assets confiscated and thrown out of country. CFR/Kissinger/Soros/etc decided to call Putin a "fascist" for his actions.

5) DNC who is funded by guys like Soros have made a further and further hostile relationship with Russia due to Putin controlling the country despite war not being in the interest of the average American.

Really not that complicated.

Let me know which part you find to be inaccurate and I will easily prove my case at any level.

You have any proof? Seriously show me something because everything from credible media sources shows just the opposite.

 

[DrCommonSense]

You have any proof? Seriously show me something because everything from credible media sources shows just the opposite.

Which part isn't credible?

Soros funding Hillary?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...s-alarmed-by-trump-pours-money-into-2016-race



Soros involvement in Ukraine to retaliate against Russia?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world...iant-globalist-footprint-in-ukraine-s-turmoil

http://thehill.com/policy/national-...ocs-released-by-alleged-russia-backed-hackers



Asset grabs by Soros?

http://journal-neo.org/2015/06/12/an-american-oligarch-s-dirty-tale-of-corruption/





Yukos Oil "Founder" is able to buy oil company for pennies compared to value (Where did he get the money?):

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/nov/2/20031102-111400-3720r/

http://www.cfr.org/world/putin-oligarchs/p8018


Why was Henry Kissing/Rothschild on his board? Why did he make an "open society" modeled after Soros? Why did he attempt to launder money through Bank of New York?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/opinion/autumn-of-the-oligarchs.html Even NYT admits whose on the board of the company. Amazing aint it?



Wonder if this has anything to do with their hostility towards Putin? Nah can't be right?

 

[Ignatius J]

Don't need help with my case... just read a newspaper. I'm sorry, go read something from the "liberal media."

No, you definitely need help with your case.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Which part isn't credible?

Soros funding Hillary?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...s-alarmed-by-trump-pours-money-into-2016-race



Soros involvement in Ukraine to retaliate against Russia?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world...iant-globalist-footprint-in-ukraine-s-turmoil

http://thehill.com/policy/national-...ocs-released-by-alleged-russia-backed-hackers



Asset grabs by Soros?

http://journal-neo.org/2015/06/12/an-american-oligarch-s-dirty-tale-of-corruption/





Wonder if this has anything to do with their hostility towards Putin? Nah can't be right?

Comrade did you seriously put a link up to the New Eastern Order?!

You guys have GOT to check out this Russian propaganda site... this is downright embarrassing. This is straight up INTENSE alt-right anti-western pro-Russian nonsense; articles about Assad's and Putin's "freedom fighters" and American terrorism; Obama's "color revolution" whereby he's financing the anti-Trump protests to stage a coup d'etat, as are the Western European centrists in their countries; articles about imminent American economic collapse and the fleeing of the world from American investment...

Drcommonsense references it-
Please check this out.
http://m.journal-neo.org/

I don't know what's really going on with "Dr Common Sense", but this is nutty sh1t!!

 

[PainDrain]

So we get it, you love Putin and think that he is the best.

Soros funding the left is obvious but no different then the Koch brothers funding the right. Or the Waltons or any of the other dozens of right wing money men.

But the giant leaps in logic you make are confusing and lack facts. Your sources are mainly pro-Russian websites. I seriously have to ask, are you an immigrant from Russia? I have never heard such fervant pro-Russia BS (except from someone else in the sociopolitical forum and I am guessing you are one in the same).

Next, your sources. The evidence isn't really of much wrongdoing on Soros' part and there are some bizarro leaps of thought (I now understand where you get your logic from). Soros heads a foundation that gives out money. He funds pro-democracy/pro-western causes....the horror. Would you rather he fund say "pro dictator/pro-oppression" causes? Guess who also funds some very pro-democracy/western causes? The Kochs, the Waltons, the Coors....
If you told me Soros went out and had someone killed them you have something but being an enemy of a thug like Putin isn't much to hang your hat on.

The article by Jasper is a laugh. A Bircher....really? He can't seem to rectify his anti-communist beliefs with admitting a tough stance by anyone other than a conservative is possible.

The CFR article backs up what I wrote above. Putin is the head and all the oligarchs know it. He used the arrest and jail of Khodorkovsky to signal to the other oligarchs that he was in charge. Don't forget that Russia wasn't really doing all that well and had a few tough economic years. Putin needed to flex his muscle.

Lastly, your piece from the NYT is also funny. I am confused by your "crafty" logic again. In one instance you say "the liberals are to blame, Soros...fascists", but wasn't Bush in charge when all this was going down? I keep forgetting, was Bush really tight with Putin? Wby did the owner of Yukos oil meet with Condi and Cheney? Must have been at the requests of Soros their buddy right? Sense my sarcasm here?

You can't have it both ways. Reality proves you wrong.

 

[PainDrain]

DrCommonsense also goes by another name on this site and posts similar garbage in the socio forums.

 

[Ignatius J]

So we get it, you love Putin and think that he is the best.

Soros funding the left is obvious but no different then the Koch brothers funding the right. Or the Waltons or any of the other dozens of right wing money men.

But the giant leaps in logic you make are confusing and lack facts. Your sources are mainly pro-Russian websites. I seriously have to ask, are you an immigrant from Russia? I have never heard such fervant pro-Russia BS (except from someone else in the sociopolitical forum and I am guessing you are one in the same).

Next, your sources. The evidence isn't really of much wrongdoing on Soros' part and there are some bizarro leaps of thought (I now understand where you get your logic from). Soros heads a foundation that gives out money. He funds pro-democracy/pro-western causes....the horror. Would you rather he fund say "pro dictator/pro-oppression" causes? Guess who also funds some very pro-democracy/western causes? The Kochs, the Waltons, the Coors....
If you told me Soros went out and had someone killed them you have something but being an enemy of a thug like Putin isn't much to hang your hat on.

The article by Jasper is a laugh. A Bircher....really? He can't seem to rectify his anti-communist beliefs with admitting a tough stance by anyone other than a conservative is possible.

The CFR article backs up what I wrote above. Putin is the head and all the oligarchs know it. He used the arrest and jail of Khodorkovsky to signal to the other oligarchs that he was in charge. Don't forget that Russia wasn't really doing all that well and had a few tough economic years. Putin needed to flex his muscle.

Lastly, your piece from the NYT is also funny. I am confused by your "crafty" logic again. In one instance you say "the liberals are to blame, Soros...fascists", but wasn't Bush in charge when all this was going down? I keep forgetting, was Bush really tight with Putin? Wby did the owner of Yukos oil meet with Condi and Cheney? Must have been at the requests of Soros their buddy right? Sense my sarcasm here?

You can't have it both ways. Reality proves you wrong.

You must really like reading your own writing, because that is way too long-winded. There is an old saying about people knowing and people speaking....

 

[DrCommonSense]

So we get it, you love Putin and think that he is the best.

Soros funding the left is obvious but no different then the Koch brothers funding the right. Or the Waltons or any of the other dozens of right wing money men.

But the giant leaps in logic you make are confusing and lack facts. Your sources are mainly pro-Russian websites. I seriously have to ask, are you an immigrant from Russia? I have never heard such fervant pro-Russia BS (except from someone else in the sociopolitical forum and I am guessing you are one in the same).

Next, your sources. The evidence isn't really of much wrongdoing on Soros' part and there are some bizarro leaps of thought (I now understand where you get your logic from). Soros heads a foundation that gives out money. He funds pro-democracy/pro-western causes....the horror. Would you rather he fund say "pro dictator/pro-oppression" causes? Guess who also funds some very pro-democracy/western causes? The Kochs, the Waltons, the Coors....
If you told me Soros went out and had someone killed them you have something but being an enemy of a thug like Putin isn't much to hang your hat on.

The article by Jasper is a laugh. A Bircher....really? He can't seem to rectify his anti-communist beliefs with admitting a tough stance by anyone other than a conservative is possible.

The CFR article backs up what I wrote above. Putin is the head and all the oligarchs know it. He used the arrest and jail of Khodorkovsky to signal to the other oligarchs that he was in charge. Don't forget that Russia wasn't really doing all that well and had a few tough economic years. Putin needed to flex his muscle.

Lastly, your piece from the NYT is also funny. I am confused by your "crafty" logic again. In one instance you say "the liberals are to blame, Soros...fascists", but wasn't Bush in charge when all this was going down? I keep forgetting, was Bush really tight with Putin? Wby did the owner of Yukos oil meet with Condi and Cheney? Must have been at the requests of Soros their buddy right? Sense my sarcasm here?

You can't have it both ways. Reality proves you wrong.

Cool story bro. Keep on Soro's nuts.

I actually look more favorably on Putin than Soros. At least Putin is loyal to the country he rules. Soros is some globalist internationalist that is out for himself and is one of the most evil/corrupt individuals on earth.

Dude is literally a parasite that has stolen from countless Asian countries, bet against the pound, stole money from Russia, etc.

Even China hates Soros:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-warns-soros-against-declaring-war-on-its-currency-2016-01-26

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/27/george-soros-rich-man-who-is-hated-around-world.html

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/hungarys-orban-says-george-soros-trying-destroy-europe/ri13088

Name any country on Earth that respects this parasite/Nazi collaborator or would want him part of their society outside of the corrupt US elite?

 

[DrCommonSense]

So we get it, you love Putin and think that he is the best.

Soros funding the left is obvious but no different then the Koch brothers funding the right. Or the Waltons or any of the other dozens of right wing money men.

But the giant leaps in logic you make are confusing and lack facts. Your sources are mainly pro-Russian websites. I seriously have to ask, are you an immigrant from Russia? I have never heard such fervant pro-Russia BS (except from someone else in the sociopolitical forum and I am guessing you are one in the same).

Next, your sources. The evidence isn't really of much wrongdoing on Soros' part and there are some bizarro leaps of thought (I now understand where you get your logic from). Soros heads a foundation that gives out money. He funds pro-democracy/pro-western causes....the horror. Would you rather he fund say "pro dictator/pro-oppression" causes? Guess who also funds some very pro-democracy/western causes? The Kochs, the Waltons, the Coors....
If you told me Soros went out and had someone killed them you have something but being an enemy of a thug like Putin isn't much to hang your hat on.

The article by Jasper is a laugh. A Bircher....really? He can't seem to rectify his anti-communist beliefs with admitting a tough stance by anyone other than a conservative is possible.

The CFR article backs up what I wrote above. Putin is the head and all the oligarchs know it. He used the arrest and jail of Khodorkovsky to signal to the other oligarchs that he was in charge. Don't forget that Russia wasn't really doing all that well and had a few tough economic years. Putin needed to flex his muscle.

Lastly, your piece from the NYT is also funny. I am confused by your "crafty" logic again. In one instance you say "the liberals are to blame, Soros...fascists", but wasn't Bush in charge when all this was going down? I keep forgetting, was Bush really tight with Putin? Wby did the owner of Yukos oil meet with Condi and Cheney? Must have been at the requests of Soros their buddy right? Sense my sarcasm here?

You can't have it both ways. Reality proves you wrong.

Very simple because the Bushes/Clintons are equally corrupt and owned by our "elite" billionaire class.

 

[doctalaughs]

While I disagree with drcommonsense on many issues, I mostly agree with him on affirmative action. While it may be have good intentions the resentment it creates far outweighs every positive. If you are a minority do you want everyone to think you got a job or a degree or an MD because you were given "preference" but actually couldnt "cut it" to compete on a level field?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted682700]

I dont trust the internet news. In fact i even wonder if the KGB, CIA, MI-6, Mossad are all in the game together. They probably work for the same handlers. Ever wonder how a high school grad gets into booze allen, gets all the state secrets and hides in moscow airport and gets asylum in russia.
All these agencies have coordinated action plan in redrawing middle east boundaries and getting america to pay for it and be the fall guy

 

[deleted126335]

I dont trust the internet news. In fact i even wonder if the KGB, CIA, MI-6, Mossad are all in the game together. They probably work for the same handlers. Ever wonder how a high school grad gets into booze allen, gets all the state secrets and hides in moscow airport and gets asylum in russia.
All these agencies have coordinated action plan in redrawing middle east boundaries and getting america to pay for it and be the fall guy

 

[DrCommonSense]

View attachment 210862

He doesn't trust anything but CNN/NYTimes since they have been really "honest" during our most recent election and didn't favor anyone but just stated the facts.

Oh wait?

 

[deleted171991]

While I disagree with drcommonsense on many issues, I mostly agree with him on affirmative action. While it may be have good intentions the resentment it creates far outweighs every positive. If you are a minority do you want everyone to think you got a job or a degree or an MD because you were given "preference" but actually couldnt "cut it" to compete on a level field?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

There are no real merit-based admissions in the US. It's mostly very subjective. That's my feeling as a foreigner who trained in a Chinese-type meritocracy, where there were anonymized written entrance exams for every educational spot, every few years, thus making sure that they were taken by the brightest, not the most connected or charming. Not only that, but higher ed was free, so I have more than 8 years of it. The medical system was significantly public and governmental, and all the public jobs were taken based on similar written exams, no favors. I never really appreciated that system until I came here, where a person with barely passing USMLE scores can take a coveted anesthesia spot if s/he's well-connected or -liked. Let's not speak about AA and "diversity"-based admission/hiring, which are anything but merit-based. Oh, and specialty board certification is a joke, when compared to other developed countries, even in anesthesiology (which is one of the toughest), and now it's close to worthless (except for employer liability purposes).

Also, some well-endowed private universities love to admit people based on future predicted income, because they need rich alumni for donations. That's why parents matter to them; if you are from the right background, you will make much more money after graduation than the poor schmuck who worked his way up from the slums. Of course, they will also take some of the latter, because the smoke looks good in the mirrors, and they get to be "diverse", and qualify for federal loans etc. The criteria for college and later admissions sound absolutely ridiculous to a foreigner; e.g. what does volunteer crap or sentimental Hollywood-ian essays have to do with somebody's intellectual potential? In a meritocracy, all they would care about is knowledge, not race, not face, not wealth, not connections etc. Interestingly, we never had rape problems in higher education, possibly because truly smart people have more respect for women.

One more thing that is far from a meritocracy is immigration, btw. Canada and many other countries have point systems that give significant weight to education, occupation and experience, especially in jobs needed by the national economy, even age (and remaining productive years). There is limited family or religious immigration, and forget any chance of permanently immigrating without passing a serious language proficiency test. In some countries, you even need an attestation of "assimilation", where you have to demonstrate that you have local-born friends and truly belong to a local community of non-immigrants (church, club etc.).

tl;dr A non-merit-based system breeds injustice (and corruption), and injustice breeds resentment, frustration and extremism. Everything that public money touches should be 100% merit-based with no chances of human manipulation, even if it takes taking 3 times as many (and tougher) exams in a lifetime. Like that will ever happen...

 

[GravelRider]

There is no real merit-based admissions in the US. It's mostly very subjective. That's my feeling as a foreigner who trained in a Chinese-type meritocracy, where there were anonymized written entrance exams for every educational spot, every few years, thus making sure that they were taken by the brightest, not the most connected or charming. Not only that, but higher ed was free, so I have more than 8 years of it. The medical system was significantly public and governmental, and all the public jobs were taken based on similar written exams, no favors. I never really appreciated that system until I came here, where a person with barely passing USMLE scores can take a coveted anesthesia spot if s/he's well-connected or -liked. Let's not speak about AA and "diversity"-based admission/hiring, which are anything but merit-based. Oh, and specialty board certification is a joke, when compared to other developed countries, even in anesthesiology (which is one of the toughest), and now it's close to worthless (except for employer liability purposes).

Also, some well-endowed private universities love to admit people based on future predicted income, because they need rich alumni for donations. That's why parents matter to them; if you are from the right background, you will make much more money after graduation than the poor schmuck who worked his way up from the slums. Of course, they will also take some of the latter, because the smoke looks good in the mirrors, and they get to be "diverse", and qualify for federal loans etc. The criteria for college and later admissions sound absolutely ridiculous to a foreigner; e.g. what does volunteer crap or sentimental Hollywood-ian essays have to do with somebody's intellectual potential? In a meritocracy, all they would care about is knowledge, not race, not face, not wealth, not connections etc. Interestingly, we never had rape problems in higher education, possibly because truly smart people have more respect for women.

One more thing that is far from a meritocracy is immigration, btw. Canada and many other countries have point systems that give significant weight to education, occupation and experience, especially in jobs needed by the national economy, even age (and remaining productive years). There is limited family or religious immigration, and forget any chance of permanently immigrating without passing a serious language proficiency test. In some countries, you even need an attestation of "assimilation", where you have to demonstrate that you have local-born friends and truly belong to a local community of non-immigrants (church, club etc.).

tl;dr A non-merit-based system breeds injustice (and corruption), and injustice breeds resentment, frustration and extremism. Everything that public money touches should be 100% merit-based with no chances of human manipulation, even if it takes taking 3 times as many (and tougher) exams in a lifetime. Like that will ever happen...

Call me cynical/skeptical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that there are purely objectivity based meritocracies out there. It just does not jive with my understanding of human nature. What you are describing is some Platonic ideal. Greasing the wheel for favors exists everywhere and will always exist. Sorry, that's just how it works.

Test/knowledge based admissions have severe faults, in my opinion. I can easily imagine a scenario where you shelter someone, but teach them "to the test." Our best and brightest not only need to have good fact-based knowledge, but they need to be world citizens as well. A few pages ago we were discussing how many Trump supporters haven't left their towns or ever encountered an LGBT/Muslim/black person and as a result they see them as some sort of abstract enemy. To me, experience is a big part of the knowledge puzzle that you just don't get from reading facts.

 

[Planktonmd]

The advantage of admission testing is that every applicant has an equal opportunity at getting admitted as long as the test scores are the only metric determining admission.
But once other metrics and factors start being considered, the system becomes unfair and that's unfortunately the case in most countries that have these tests.
But despite this unfairness that could happen when other factors are considered, the admission to good universities of underprivileged candidates is certainly more likely under this system compared to what happens in the US.
Another advantage is that most countries that have admission tests have either free or hugely subsidized education which also makes it easier for the poor to access good high education.

 

[deleted171991]

Call me cynical/skeptical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that there are purely objectivity based meritocracies out there. It just does not jive with my understanding of human nature. What you are describing is some Platonic ideal. Greasing the wheel for favors exists everywhere and will always exist. Sorry, that's just how it works.

You are not cynical. You are a realist. But the closer one gets to a meritocracy the fewer the unhappy angry/frustrated people.

Test/knowledge based admissions have severe faults, in my opinion. I can easily imagine a scenario where you shelter someone, but teach them "to the test." Our best and brightest not only need to have good fact-based knowledge, but they need to be world citizens as well. A few pages ago we were discussing how many Trump supporters haven't left their towns or ever encountered an LGBT/Muslim/black person and as a result they see them as some sort of abstract enemy. To me, experience is a big part of the knowledge puzzle that you just don't get from reading facts.

If the test is comprehensive and well-designed, you cannot teach to the test. It's more knowledge-based that in the US, more detail-oriented, so you either know that stuff or you don't.

Experience without education doesn't mean crap. There is a difference between seeing and observing, and the latter requires a well-primed mind. Facts and knowledge prevent one from reinventing the wheel and repeating other people's mistakes. Experience is what one gets when one does those.

 

[bashwell]

Caltech sounds more merit based:

Meanwhile, the California Institute of Technology follows a highly selective but strictly race-neutral admissions policy, and its enrollment of Asian-Americans has grown almost exactly in line with the growth of the Asian-American population.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league/statistics-indicate-an-ivy-league-asian-quota

 

[deleted126335]

The advantage of admission testing is that every applicant has an equal opportunity at getting admitted as long as the test scores are the only metric determining admission.
But once other metrics and factors start being considered, the system becomes unfair and that's unfortunately the case in most countries that have these tests.
But despite this unfairness that could happen when other factors are considered, the admission to good universities of underprivileged candidates is certainly more likely under this system compared to what happens in the US.
Another advantage is that most countries that have admission tests have either free or hugely subsidized education which also makes it easier for the poor to access good high education.

Actually there is a way to use factors other than test scores and keep the system pretty fair. Using college admissions as an example. Lets say you have 1,000 spots 10,000 applicants and 40% of applicants are qualified based on test scores and whatever other criteria the college chooses to care about (extracurriculars, athletics, interpersonal skills, family money, etc.). Put the 40% of qualified candidates in a hat and randomly pick 1,ooo names from the qualified pool.

While I think that most people would agree that this system is about as "fair" as possible, it will never happen.

 

[deleted171991]

Actually there is a way to use factors other than test scores and keep the system fair. Using college admissions as an example. Lets say you have 1,000 spots 10,000 applicants and 40% of applicants are qualified based on test scores and whatever other criteria the college chooses to care about (extracurriculars, athletics, interpersonal skills, family money, etc.). Put the 40% of qualified candidates in a hat and randomly pick 1,ooo names from the qualified pool.

While I think that most people would agree that this system is about as "fair" as possible, it will never happen.

In a meritocracy, it's literally like this: if you have 1,000 spots, the top 1,000 on the entrance exam are admitted. No ifs, ands, or buts. No college sports, no diversity, no special interests, no mommy and daddy, no donations to the school etc. Everybody takes the same test, everybody is scored based on the same objective and very detailed scale. Crystal clear and transparent.

Of course the rich and powerful could never tolerate a system that calls a spade a spade, and their kids too dumb for a higher ed degree, despite all that tutoring.

No surprise that, in a non-merit-based society, people fall back on tribalism.

 

[Planktonmd]

Actually there is a way to use factors other than test scores and keep the system pretty fair. Using college admissions as an example. Lets say you have 1,000 spots 10,000 applicants and 40% of applicants are qualified based on test scores and whatever other criteria the college chooses to care about (extracurriculars, athletics, interpersonal skills, family money, etc.). Put the 40% of qualified candidates in a hat and randomly pick 1,ooo names from the qualified pool.

While I think that most people would agree that this system is about as "fair" as possible, it will never happen.

As long as those other factors do augment the ability of that candidate to succeed in a chosen field they might be acceptable. But if the factors are family money or being able to throw a ball farther than others, then they will produce an unfair bias in the results. On the other hand at least with the test results as a major factor it would definitely be better than what we currently have.
And I agree, it will never happen.

 

[bashwell]

We need to have affirmative action in sports since some athletes come from a more privileged socioeconomic background than other athletes. (sarcasm)

 

[DrCommonSense]

There are no real merit-based admissions in the US. It's mostly very subjective. That's my feeling as a foreigner who trained in a Chinese-type meritocracy, where there were anonymized written entrance exams for every educational spot, every few years, thus making sure that they were taken by the brightest, not the most connected or charming. Not only that, but higher ed was free, so I have more than 8 years of it. The medical system was significantly public and governmental, and all the public jobs were taken based on similar written exams, no favors. I never really appreciated that system until I came here, where a person with barely passing USMLE scores can take a coveted anesthesia spot if s/he's well-connected or -liked. Let's not speak about AA and "diversity"-based admission/hiring, which are anything but merit-based. Oh, and specialty board certification is a joke, when compared to other developed countries, even in anesthesiology (which is one of the toughest), and now it's close to worthless (except for employer liability purposes).

Also, some well-endowed private universities love to admit people based on future predicted income, because they need rich alumni for donations. That's why parents matter to them; if you are from the right background, you will make much more money after graduation than the poor schmuck who worked his way up from the slums. Of course, they will also take some of the latter, because the smoke looks good in the mirrors, and they get to be "diverse", and qualify for federal loans etc. The criteria for college and later admissions sound absolutely ridiculous to a foreigner; e.g. what does volunteer crap or sentimental Hollywood-ian essays have to do with somebody's intellectual potential? In a meritocracy, all they would care about is knowledge, not race, not face, not wealth, not connections etc. Interestingly, we never had rape problems in higher education, possibly because truly smart people have more respect for women.

One more thing that is far from a meritocracy is immigration, btw. Canada and many other countries have point systems that give significant weight to education, occupation and experience, especially in jobs needed by the national economy, even age (and remaining productive years). There is limited family or religious immigration, and forget any chance of permanently immigrating without passing a serious language proficiency test. In some countries, you even need an attestation of "assimilation", where you have to demonstrate that you have local-born friends and truly belong to a local community of non-immigrants (church, club etc.).

tl;dr A non-merit-based system breeds injustice (and corruption), and injustice breeds resentment, frustration and extremism. Everything that public money touches should be 100% merit-based with no chances of human manipulation, even if it takes taking 3 times as many (and tougher) exams in a lifetime. Like that will ever happen...

100% agree with this post. Can't believe something this intelligent came out of your usual liberal craziness.

This is honestly one of the best posts on the thread and very accurate.

Bravo to this.

 

[DrCommonSense]

The advantage of admission testing is that every applicant has an equal opportunity at getting admitted as long as the test scores are the only metric determining admission.
But once other metrics and factors start being considered, the system becomes unfair and that's unfortunately the case in most countries that have these tests.
But despite this unfairness that could happen when other factors are considered, the admission to good universities of underprivileged candidates is certainly more likely under this system compared to what happens in the US.
Another advantage is that most countries that have admission tests have either free or hugely subsidized education which also makes it easier for the poor to access good high education.

I have ZERO problems with that type of system

 

[deleted682700]

View attachment 210862

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. Until your cherished delusion comes crashing. People rather not think because its painful to realize the consequences. And calling other people as paranoid fits your view points to be correct and confirmedby the talking heads in MSM.

However all the economic numbers are being manufactured by the government seems to be bogus. Shadowstats.com. Just like the election predictions of the wonderful MSM. Did u notice that trump spent way less and got more media coverage?

The problem is the economy is surviving because of government spending. Who is loaning the govt? Will they continue to lend at zero percent. The answer is no. The bond market carnage in the last 2 weeks is said to be un precedented.
This is a set up for spike in interest rate.

When you cannot service the 200 trillion liability and the quadrillion dollar derivative market, at zero percent, can u predict what happens when the interest rate is forced up to 5%, the historic average? The answer trump knows one or two about bankruptcy. He is seeing how much (maximum )he can get out of the coming sale.

The other issue is the reserve currency Triffin paradox. Read about it and educate yourself.

The bottom line on sep 10, 2001, one trillion dollars was reported missing from the pentagon. On sep 11 the cantor fitzgerald offices, all the records from building 7 were conveniently imploded. Remember the free fall. The precedent for this is gulf of Tonkin. A special plane escorted bin laden family out back to saudi. Believe that it was done by some uneducated ruffian with box cutter. Next patriot act, to search grandma and 2 yr old underpants.

Sep11, 1973, chilean president was not listening and the jackals had to be sent to take care of him. Read Economic Hit man, perkins.

Golder, attorney general almost caught gun running to gangs. Benghazi, hitlery was almost caught gun running from libya to the next destiny, Syria. The treasanous part is that the killing of the ambassdor was an insider job. Remember he was in a safe house known only to a few. He was brought to the hospital alive and then.

All this arming of mercenary, moderate rebels while CIA and pentagon were arming opposing tribes. Then ISIS had brand new toyotas, courtesy of quatar. Of course oatsama releases 5 of his special guests to get the Awol. Hue and cry about guantanamo prisoners, sorry intelligence assets, not getting adequate care and sodier bradley manning being given solitary confinement. No wonder the international tribunal has found america guilty of creating war crimes in afghanistan.

Dont worry. Everything will be fine. We have to support and rally for our new president. But the damn emperor is naked and flat broke.

 

[deleted126335]

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. Until your cherished delusion comes crashing. People rather not think because its painful to realize the consequences. And calling other people as paranoid fits your view points to be correct and confirmedby the talking heads in MSM.

However all the economic numbers are being manufactured by the government seems to be bogus. Shadowstats.com. Just like the election predictions of the wonderful MSM. Did u notice that trump spent way less and got more media coverage?

The problem is the economy is surviving because of government spending. Who is loaning the govt? Will they continue to lend at zero percent. The answer is no. The bond market carnage in the last 2 weeks is said to be un precedented.
This is a set up for spike in interest rate.

When you cannot service the 200 trillion liability and the quadrillion dollar derivative market, at zero percent, can u predict what happens when the interest rate is forced up to 5%, the historic average? The answer trump knows one or two about bankruptcy. He is seeing how much (maximum )he can get out of the coming sale.

The other issue is the reserve currency Triffin paradox. Read about it and educate yourself.

The bottom line on sep 10, 2001, one trillion dollars was reported missing from the pentagon. On sep 11 the cantor fitzgerald offices, all the records from building 7 were conveniently imploded. Remember the free fall. The precedent for this is gulf of Tonkin. A special plane escorted bin laden family out back to saudi. Believe that it was done by some uneducated ruffian with box cutter. Next patriot act, to search grandma and 2 yr old underpants.

Sep11, 1973, chilean president was not listening and the jackals had to be sent to take care of him. Read Economic Hit man, perkins.

Golder, attorney general almost caught gun running to gangs. Benghazi, hitlery was almost caught gun running from libya to the next destiny, Syria. The treasanous part is that the killing of the ambassdor was an insider job. Remember he was in a safe house known only to a few. He was brought to the hospital alive and then.

All this arming of mercenary, moderate rebels while CIA and pentagon were arming opposing tribes. Then ISIS had brand new toyotas, courtesy of quatar. Of course oatsama releases 5 of his special guests to get the Awol. Hue and cry about guantanamo prisoners, sorry intelligence assets, not getting adequate care and sodier bradley manning being given solitary confinement. No wonder the international tribunal has found america guilty of creating war crimes in afghanistan.

Dont worry. Everything will be fine. We have to support and rally for our new president. But the damn emperor is naked and flat broke.

You must get most of your news from zero hedge.

 

[GravelRider]

You must get most of your news from zero hedge.

View attachment 210876

This is actually becoming a real problem and a story from this election. These fake news sites are popping up everywhere and they spread stories like viruses on social media. Many of these sites are created by people in foreign countries, and their goal is simply to get money from clicks. The biggest downside is that people actually believe these stories and it adds to wild conspiracy theories and magical thinking. It seems as though out president-elect spends a good deal of his time reading fake news stories.

There was a story in the NY Times recently about how Facebook and Google are going to have to start vetting their sources. A large percentage of people consume their news through Facebook and there is currently no fact-checking system in place to verify the authenticity of a shared story.

 

[DrCommonSense]

This is actually becoming a real problem and a story from this election. These fake news sites are popping up everywhere and they spread stories like viruses on social media. Many of these sites are created by people in foreign countries, and their goal is simply to get money from clicks. The biggest downside is that people actually believe these stories and it adds to wild conspiracy theories and magical thinking. It seems as though out president-elect spends a good deal of his time reading fake news stories.

There was a story in the NY Times recently about how Facebook and Google are going to have to start vetting their sources. A large percentage of people consume their news through Facebook and there is currently no fact-checking system in place to verify the authenticity of a shared story.

I find it amusing that you use NYT as some kind honest "fact checker". Even the owner of the NYT admitted his paper was very biased during the recent elections.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahba...p-calls-the-new-york-times-our-press-n2235115

Wikileaks literally laid bare the collusion between the media with Clinton.

 

[GravelRider]

I find it amusing that you use NYT as some kind honest "fact checker". Even the owner of the NYT admitted his paper was very biased during the recent elections.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahba...p-calls-the-new-york-times-our-press-n2235115

Wikileaks literally laid bare the collusion between the media with Clinton.

No one ever made a claim about whether or not the NYT is biased or not. It is obvious that the NYT tends to lean left...especially on its opinion pages. The NYT endorsed Clinton. There is no secret there and I don't need a "leak" from Julian Assange to tell me that. What I am talking about is news stories that are outright made up. The article I mentioned points to an example where an article from one of these fake news sources claimed that the pope endorsed Trump for president. This story was shared on social media 1.2 million times.

 

[ProfMD]

I find it amusing that you use NYT as some kind honest "fact checker". Even the owner of the NYT admitted his paper was very biased during the recent elections.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahba...p-calls-the-new-york-times-our-press-n2235115

Wikileaks literally laid bare the collusion between the media with Clinton.

Bias and flat out lying are two very different things.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Bias and flat out lying are two very different things.

NYT does both and collaborated with Hillary directly despite pretending to be "impartial".

Lets not kid ourselves here.

 

[ProfMD]

NYT does both and collaborated with Hillary directly despite pretending to be "impartial".

Lets not kid ourselves here.

Doesn't change the truth of my statement. They still don't just make up stories as click bait. That was @GravelRider 's point.

No one is saying NYTimes is impartial. Most news organizations aren't. However, biased news is preferable to fiction presented as fact.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

NYT does both and collaborated with Hillary directly despite pretending to be "impartial".

Lets not kid ourselves here.

Good point about the Times.

Here's an article from the "New Eastern Outlook" site you referenced. Good details about America's and Western Europe's global "fourth Reich" (apparently global fascism was the west's goal during and post-WWII).

Oh and some good plugs in there for Putin. The reemergence of Russia under Putin's leadership helped expose our global machinations.

http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/09/american-dream-metamorphosis-the-fourth-fascist-reich-plan/

 

[DrCommonSense]

Good point about the Times.

Here's an article from the "New Eastern Outlook" site you referenced. Good details about America's and Western Europe's global "fourth Reich" (apparently global fascism was the west's goal during and post-WWII).

Oh and some good plugs in there for Putin. The reemergence of Russia under Putin's leadership helped expose our global machinations.

http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/09/american-dream-metamorphosis-the-fourth-fascist-reich-plan/

Who knows lol

 

[DrCommonSense]

Good point about the Times.

Here's an article from the "New Eastern Outlook" site you referenced. Good details about America's and Western Europe's global "fourth Reich" (apparently global fascism was the west's goal during and post-WWII).

Oh and some good plugs in there for Putin. The reemergence of Russia under Putin's leadership helped expose our global machinations.

http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/09/american-dream-metamorphosis-the-fourth-fascist-reich-plan/

I blame all our problems on White men and "internalized misogyny" that "white women" seem to have.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/now-clinton-campaign-blames-women-loss-internalized-misogyny/

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I blame all our problems on White men and "internalized misogyny" that "white women" seem to have.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/now-clinton-campaign-blames-women-loss-internalized-misogyny/

Here your site makes an argument that the 100s of millions Bill Gates and American philanthropists have spent on vaccines and medicines for the third world is to destroy their populations.

http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/11...concerns-always-result-in-population-control/