Wayne State University part 01

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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I have a complaint about the way attendance is being kept track in our PD course. I attended my 1st hospital session yesterday at Sinai Grace. The hospital had a sign-in sheet that I signed, so there is proof that I was there. Not only was I there, I showed up an hour and a half early. In my haste to get to Scott Hall to study for the heme exam, I forgot to get the blue sheet signed (which apparently was due today). I was told by the ladies in the office where we turn in the sign in sheets that because I would be turning in the sign in sheet late, that it would be counted as being late to 1 PD session. I believe this policy is ridiculous. Not only was I there, I showed up early! The coordinator at Sinai Grace, my partner, and the resident we worked with can all vouch for that fact. I think that I should not be counted as late because I forgot to get a piece of paper signed.

Most of my classmates (at least the ones I've talked to) also believe this system is absurd. What did we buy our PDA's for if not to keep track of things like this? We've been trained in the past year and a half to sign in using the PDA's, so why the switch to archaic paper? Also, we're expected to sign in at each hospital site, Clinical Skills Center session, and lecture. Then we're supposed to also get our blue sheets signed and turned in at a certain due date? This is not only redundant, but inefficiant and time consuming.

What do you all think about the new blue paper sign in system? Am I wrong in thinking this is ******ed???
 
fun8stuff said:
thanks! i think you just restored a little bit of my optimism by saying there is really only one really hard exam left... 🙂
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I think Shangal forgot about the entire neuroanatomy course. The exams are reasonably written, but the workload is the worst you'll have experienced yet. Interesting stuff, though...

and don't slack off on nutrition, a few people really bombed that. sardesai is serious about his nutrition.
 
Flobber said:
I think Shangal forgot about the entire neuroanatomy course. The exams are reasonably written, but the workload is the worst you'll have experienced yet. Interesting stuff, though...

and don't slack off on nutrition, a few people really bombed that. sardesai is serious about his nutrition.
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*closes his eyes and pretends he did not see this* :laugh:
 
katrinadams9 said:
I have a complaint about the way attendance is being kept track in our PD course. I attended my 1st hospital session yesterday at Sinai Grace. The hospital had a sign-in sheet that I signed, so there is proof that I was there. Not only was I there, I showed up an hour and a half early. In my haste to get to Scott Hall to study for the heme exam, I forgot to get the blue sheet signed (which apparently was due today). I was told by the ladies in the office where we turn in the sign in sheets that because I would be turning in the sign in sheet late, that it would be counted as being late to 1 PD session. I believe this policy is ridiculous. Not only was I there, I showed up early! The coordinator at Sinai Grace, my partner, and the resident we worked with can all vouch for that fact. I think that I should not be counted as late because I forgot to get a piece of paper signed.

Most of my classmates (at least the ones I've talked to) also believe this system is absurd. What did we buy our PDA's for if not to keep track of things like this? We've been trained in the past year and a half to sign in using the PDA's, so why the switch to archaic paper? Also, we're expected to sign in at each hospital site, Clinical Skills Center session, and lecture. Then we're supposed to also get our blue sheets signed and turned in at a certain due date? This is not only redundant, but inefficiant and time consuming.

What do you all think about the new blue paper sign in system? Am I wrong in thinking this is ******ed???
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It is stupid - they are doing the same thing with our Clin Med small groups - we have to have little slips signed by the small group leader and then take them to Scott Hall to have our attendance recorded, and if you turn them in late, you might as well not turn them in at all because they won't accept late attendance slips - on top of that there are 2 sessions on each slip, so if you miss one slip, you've now been absent twice.

It's par for the Wayne State course, I guess, the administration can't get out of their own way long enough to allow us to learn anything.
 
I thought it was ridiculous today that everyone went and got the lectures' signature after the PD lecture. I didn't. I signed in on the paper and on the PDA, I felt bad that he had to sign 200+ blue sheets. Let's hope that they won't mark us down for that!
 
lj1230 said:
I thought it was ridiculous today that everyone went and got the lectures' signature after the PD lecture. I didn't. I signed in on the paper and on the PDA, I felt bad that he had to sign 200+ blue sheets. Let's hope that they won't mark us down for that!
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If we don't hear soon about how "unprofessional" many of us were this morning getting those slips signed in a frenzy, the administration will claim ignorance if today is ever mentioned again. Typical reply: "We didn't know! We thought the system was working." 🙄
 
Hey all. I was just notified that I've received an interview on Feb. 22.

I'm excited about this, but am concerned about the interview being so late. Does anyone know how late they interview (through April??), and what your experiences have been regarding February interviews and actual acceptances.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
 
cfdavid said:
Hey all. I was just notified that I've received an interview on Feb. 22.

I'm excited about this, but am concerned about the interview being so late. Does anyone know how late they interview (through April??), and what your experiences have been regarding February interviews and actual acceptances.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
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My interview was in March. After my interview I was told to call in exactly a month to find out my status. I figured being so late in the season, I'd be on the wait list. Lo and behold, I called in April and was accepted. Don't stress about being a late interview. There are still plenty of spots.
 
cfdavid said:
Hey all. I was just notified that I've received an interview on Feb. 22.

I'm excited about this, but am concerned about the interview being so late. Does anyone know how late they interview (through April??), and what your experiences have been regarding February interviews and actual acceptances.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...

I interviewed in late March, was alternate listed and then contacted in (I think) May with the acceptance. However, I know of a couple of people that got in off the alternate list a day or two before orientation started; so if you get alt. listed don't sweat it since there is usually lots of movement over the summer.
 
Interviewed in February, accepted on March 31st.
 
cfdavid said:
Thanks very much for the feedback. I'm so excited!
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some more good news is that they are also increasing the class size by about 30 people. 🙂
 
fun8stuff said:
some more good news is that they are also increasing the class size by about 30 people. 🙂
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Yeah, that's what I heard. But, I wonder if they'll just interview more people! lol Then again, how many people can a school really interview. The MSAR says they interviewed something like 530 in-staters last year.

Damn, that's gonna be one big class though!
 
I knew the moment of truth was coming soon.

Am I the only one who cracked up when she was going over the rectal exam. I mean not only are we supposed to stick our finger down there, but we have to twirl it, touch the prostate, and then get some fecal mater on our way out. I was just waiting for her to say and then lick it and that would've made my day.

I can't see myself doing that. Why the hell will they want a person who has no interest in doing anything in medicine related to that area to do that kind of stuff. I mean future psychiatrists, radiologists, neurosurgeons, ENT doctors, .... are never going to get paid to touch that so why should people like me have to perform this test.

Ba humbug
 
Shangal said:
I can't see myself doing that. Why the hell will they want a person who has no interest in doing anything in medicine related to that area to do that kind of stuff. I mean future psychiatrists, radiologists, neurosurgeons, ENT doctors, .... are never going to get paid to touch that so why should people like me have to perform this test.
Click to expand...

I am not thrilled about this prospect either, but I understand the need for it.

1. Prostatic hypertrophy is very common in the elderly.
2. Prostate and colon cancer is also very common.
3. You can learn a lot more about the GI tract by where everything comes out than where everything goes in.
4. It is also useful for examining women, but I am less familiar with that aspect.
5. Don't you think you might need other aspects of your medical training eventually even if you do go into a field where this exam isn't required on a regular basis?

Last thought: Apparently word has gotten around among my relatives about me and I already have distant relatives lining up to get full physicals as soon as I get the MD.
 
deowolf04 said:
I am not thrilled about this prospect either, but I understand the need for it.

1. Prostatic hypertrophy is very common in the elderly.
2. Prostate and colon cancer is also very common.
3. You can learn a lot more about the GI tract by where everything comes out than where everything goes in.
4. It is also useful for examining women, but I am less familiar with that aspect.
5. Don't you think you might need other aspects of your medical training eventually even if you do go into a field where this exam isn't required on a regular basis?

Last thought: Apparently word has gotten around among my relatives about me and I already have distant relatives lining up to get full physicals as soon as I get the MD.
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why would they want a physical from their relative? are you that good looking??! haha... 😱
 
Shangal said:
I knew the moment of truth was coming soon.

Am I the only one who cracked up when she was going over the rectal exam. I mean not only are we supposed to stick our finger down there, but we have to twirl it, touch the prostate, and then get some fecal mater on our way out. I was just waiting for her to say and then lick it and that would've made my day.

I can't see myself doing that. Why the hell will they want a person who has no interest in doing anything in medicine related to that area to do that kind of stuff. I mean future psychiatrists, radiologists, neurosurgeons, ENT doctors, .... are never going to get paid to touch that so why should people like me have to perform this test.

Ba humbug
Click to expand...

what class is this?
 
wow, i can't wait for PD! this is the whole reason i signed up for this med school thing!
 
fun8stuff said:
wow, i can't wait for PD! this is the whole reason i signed up for this med school thing!
Click to expand...

Please write that statement down and re-read it next year around this time. 🙂
 
fun8stuff said:
why would they want a physical from their relative? are you that good looking??! haha... 😱
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I can answer that in three words:

Free medical care
 
there is nothing like sticking your finger down that hole
 
did anyone go to the clinic day this afternoon? I have it tomorrow but just wondered how it went. I could use the extra 3 hours to study....
 
I didn't go this afternoon - I'm hoping it's not required... and honestly I don't care if it is, I need those three hours 😛
 
JonD-08 said:
I didn't go this afternoon - I'm hoping it's not required... and honestly I don't care if it is, I need those three hours 😛
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I'm with you on that one. Went home after PD and have been studying ever since.
 
Hey guys,

There is a very good chance that I'll be joining you guys next year at WSU and Im wondering about the housing situation. I know that the med school doesnt have on campus housing, so how do you guys handle it?

Is there like one specific apartment complex where most of the students go? Will I need to have a car on campus, or can I get away with walking?

Oh, and what are you paying per month for what kind of place (like 2 bedroom apt or 1 bedroom apt)?


Thanks!
 
I'm just curious as to how much the medical student body and potential applicants are following or are aware of the situation between the DMC and the University. Are people aware of the dire situation that exists downtown? It is NOT a remote possibility that the medical school and residencies will move from the DMC or simply cease to exist. The DMC is starting to show its real colors about its commitment towards education. This is an informed post.
 
amk25a said:
I was wondering about this and had asked about it in another thread but did not receive any answer. What is the current situation exactly? Would DMC actually be able to survive without its Wayne affiliation? That's a whole lot of students (and residents?) they'd lose. It was only recently they turned themselves around financially. But with Karmanos going independent, will they continue in the black? I don't know how much of their revenues came from Karmanos but I'd imagine quite a bit did...
Click to expand...


The current situation is that the contract between the DMC and the UPG (University Physician's Group) is up on March 31, 2006. The last agreement was for 1 year as the two sides could not come to an agreement and obtain the usual 3 year deal. Currently negotiations are in a state of flux and the DMC's current position is to negotiate with each department individually. While this might not seem all that bad, the DMC is NOT negotiating with all the departments, meaning that there they feel that they can get along without certain academic departments. Also, without a unified physician's group, each department lacks the collective bargaining ability to resist being terminated or influenced and singled out on the whim of the DMC. I can't really comment intelligently on Karmano's leaving, although they will probably function just fine without the DMC, and for the reverse, who knows.

You do have a good question about the DMC functioning without residents. In my opinion university, especially inner city ones, cannot function without this labor force. It is a trade off everywhere you go as a resident for working for learning, however, it would be practically financially impossible to run the DMC without residents. It is rumored that PAs would be employed to cover, however, they do not bring in Medicare funding in the amount of $150,000-200,000 per year that a resident commands, from which he/she is paid. Plus PAs cost a lot to pay.

I think that the student body and applicants really need to question the comittment to education. The new dean is supposed to take over on March 1st and the real question is will he tolerate a fragmented and incomplete medical school? Do not believe that the DMC has the best interest of education in mind. They don't. They are interested in the bottom line ($$$), however, they may try to spin it in a positive direction. While this may seem like an attack, I am simply trying to inform people that are going to be affected. You guys need to start asking the questions and expect truthful answers. Don't be complacent with ignorance.

As of today:
-a primary care dept. is withdrawing from the match
-multiple surgical subspecialty depts are in consideration to leave the DMC
-the ACGME/RRC is well informed and is contemplating possible termination of the entire residency programs


Sorry about this info dump, but it is not a rosy picture.
 
amk25a said:
I was wondering about this and had asked about it in another thread but did not receive any answer. What is the current situation exactly?
Click to expand...

That would be because in typical Wayne State fashion (with the exception of a single Dean’s forum – which was scheduled at a time most students had prior commitments) the student body is intentionally being left out of the loop on this topic.
 
Rodney Munch said:
The current situation is that the contract between the DMC and the UPG (University Physician's Group) is up on March 31, 2006. The last agreement was for 1 year as the two sides could not come to an agreement and obtain the usual 3 year deal. Currently negotiations are in a state of flux and the DMC's current position is to negotiate with each department individually. While this might not seem all that bad, the DMC is NOT negotiating with all the departments, meaning that there they feel that they can get along without certain academic departments. Also, without a unified physician's group, each department lacks the collective bargaining ability to resist being terminated or influenced and singled out on the whim of the DMC. I can't really comment intelligently on Karmano's leaving, although they will probably function just fine without the DMC, and for the reverse, who knows.

You do have a good question about the DMC functioning without residents. In my opinion university, especially inner city ones, cannot function without this labor force. It is a trade off everywhere you go as a resident for working for learning, however, it would be practically financially impossible to run the DMC without residents. It is rumored that PAs would be employed to cover, however, they do not bring in Medicare funding in the amount of $150,000-200,000 per year that a resident commands, from which he/she is paid. Plus PAs cost a lot to pay.

I think that the student body and applicants really need to question the comittment to education. The new dean is supposed to take over on March 1st and the real question is will he tolerate a fragmented and incomplete medical school? Do not believe that the DMC has the best interest of education in mind. They don't. They are interested in the bottom line ($$$), however, they may try to spin it in a positive direction. While this may seem like an attack, I am simply trying to inform people that are going to be affected. You guys need to start asking the questions and expect truthful answers. Don't be complacent with ignorance.

As of today:
-a primary care dept. is withdrawing from the match
-multiple surgical subspecialty depts are in consideration to leave the DMC
-the ACGME/RRC is well informed and is contemplating possible termination of the entire residency programs


Sorry about this info dump, but it is not a rosy picture.
Click to expand...

Hi Dr. Jackson, how are you doing??
 
MD'05 said:
Hi Dr. Jackson, how are you doing??
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Yea - seriously - nice of the school to lobby on a student forum to try to gain leverage in the negotiations.

I just have a hard time seeing these predictions happening - the DMC goes down if WSU leaves them (they can employ all the PAs they want, they can't afford to lose the money that having a residency program brings in), and WSUSOM (they would have no place to send 600 students per year, plus all the residents) dies with out the DMC.

This is not unique to Detroit, many schools that do not own the hospitals they send their students to are going through the same thing, it isn't unique to Wayne - it's a sign of the changing times, both sides need to adjust, and anyone that's been around university and/or hospital administration knows that it's easier to move a mountain than move their thinking.
 
mendel121 said:
Yea - seriously - nice of the school to lobby on a student forum to try to gain leverage in the negotiations.

I just have a hard time seeing these predictions happening - the DMC goes down if WSU leaves them (they can employ all the PAs they want, they can't afford to lose the money that having a residency program brings in), and WSUSOM (they would have no place to send 600 students per year, plus all the residents) dies with out the DMC.

This is not unique to Detroit, many schools that do not own the hospitals they send their students to are going through the same thing, it isn't unique to Wayne - it's a sign of the changing times, both sides need to adjust, and anyone that's been around university and/or hospital administration knows that it's easier to move a mountain than move their thinking.
Click to expand...

I'm glad people are talking about this now. Good to see that people still care. To address some things...

A) This isn't Dr. Jackson
B) There are sites in the area that would be receptive to having a medical school, however you can imagine that the transfer would be a large endeavor.
C) This situation is and isn't unique. Some have compared this situation to the issue at Baylor (and Methodist Hospital - I think) whereby the residecies are a joint affiliation between the two groups as is it is here. These two parties were involved in a similar dispute, however that is about the end of the similarities. The real difference is that Baylor has an endowment in the realm of many millions of dollars and WSU does not...As for many medical schools not owning their own hospitals, actually, many/most medical schools have their own university hospital that is there primary site, and send their students to other hospitals for more rotations, but they have that official primary site. WSU does not have that, and is reliant on the DMC for all hospitals.

I know it is hard to think of WSU without the DMC and vice versa, however it is very close. As students, you pay lots of money to be there and to learn, not deal with these politics. Anyone who has worked downtown can see that without WSU supplying the workforce for the DMC, the situation would be cataclysmic. For unknown reasons, the "people in charge" cannot see or choose not to see the possible ramifications of continuing down this course. You have worked way too hard to get to this place in your life and you do not need to deal with a possible interruption in your training or change in your location. Simply put, just don't wake up one day with an email from the dean or someone else stating that your plans need to be altered because there is no place for you to train and you had no idea about this. Stay informed and ask questions to those who should have answers.
 
amk25a said:
What is the relationship between the UPG and DMC? Does DMC employ physicians who are NOT part of the UPG or are all DMC physicians part of the UPG?

I agree hospitals tend to look at the bottom line. But I also agree with you that I can't imagine DMC being able to stay in the black without the Medicare money residents bring in. PAs, NPs, etc probably cost more than residents, even without factoring in the loss of Medicare money. That said, I just can't see the DMC execs not agreeing to something, even if it is again a 1-year deal.

Any idea what Dean Mentzer's position is on this? He was president of the UK faculty practice group in his previous post, which I presume is the equivalent of the UPG here.



Where would these departments go if they left DMC? Become part of the university? But then where would their clinical duties be?
Click to expand...


The DMC does employ some non UPG physicians however they are very small in number. Not too long ago a certain primary care specialty group was replaced with a non UPG group. I know you can argue that both ways, but you can only imagine that if one day it's one group that is replaced, the other day it could simply be another group that would be replaced. Again, you have all probably made decisions based on certain mentors or people in certain departments and expect them to be there in their academic role for your training. Imagine that training and education is being dictated by the hospital and not your school. You are students not employees. Would this be tolerated if you were an undergrad at say U Mich and your philosophy professor was simply replaced by a corporate group because they didn't agree with them. I know this is not a great analogy, but go with it. Imagine being taught philosophy by someone who is probably trained in it, yet really not the person that you signed up for.

As for Dr. Mentzer's position...I don't know what his thoughts are or what he is going to do. Is he going to take the realm of a complete medical school or one that has some of the departments. Those are questions that need to be answered.
 
I've got an idea, worry about something you have ZERO control over. The new Dean is P.I.M.P. and if anyone is going to make Wayne a better place, this guy can do it. His background is impecable and is what I'd consider to be a true "dean". DMC isn't going to have any PGY1 Ortho residencies this year, and I'm sure there will be some other BS to come up soon. It's all about money and cash flows (and hopefully less about egos). All in all, Wayne State students will be fine.
 
This is like attending a demonstration for/against the war in Iraq. NO ONE cares what we think. Becoming "informed" is nice and all, but to pretend that we have any sort of power or control is ridiculous. As for me, I'm going to focus on passing my cardio exam, and then the exam after that, and then the exam after that. If white coats and expensive suits want to play these grabass games of hardball, then "having knowledge" and "asking questions" isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.
 
medschooldrone said:
I've got an idea, worry about something you have ZERO control over. The new Dean is P.I.M.P. and if anyone is going to make Wayne a better place, this guy can do it. His background is impecable and is what I'd consider to be a true "dean". DMC isn't going to have any PGY1 Ortho residencies this year, and I'm sure there will be some other BS to come up soon. It's all about money and cash flows (and hopefully less about egos). All in all, Wayne State students will be fine.
Click to expand...

I think for everyone involved we can only hope that the new dean will roll out in his Escalade with 24s and sort this matter out. I'm sure his background is amazing and he has done a great job at all his previous jobs, however it might be too late to fix things here. Yes too late...I wouldn't say to worry about something you have no control over, just don't be dumbfounded if you wake up one day and things have gone down the tubes. There are certain multiple residencies that are in danger of closing completely and could leave multiple hospitals without some key hitters...i.e. buh-bye to Level One status at Receiving.

Current Wayne Students might be fine, however I would advise all potential applicants to look at more stable situations if you can. You do not need to sign up for all this turmoil. Just my $0.02.
 
medschooldrone said:
I've got an idea, worry about something you have ZERO control over. The new Dean is P.I.M.P. and if anyone is going to make Wayne a better place, this guy can do it. His background is impecable and is what I'd consider to be a true "dean". DMC isn't going to have any PGY1 Ortho residencies this year, and I'm sure there will be some other BS to come up soon. It's all about money and cash flows (and hopefully less about egos). All in all, Wayne State students will be fine.
Click to expand...

I think for everyone involved we can only hope that the new dean will roll out in his Escalade with 24s and sort this matter out. I'm sure his background is amazing and he has done a great job at all his previous jobs, however it might be too late to fix things here. Yes too late...I wouldn't say to worry about something you have no control over, just don't be dumbfounded if you wake up one day and things have gone down the tubes. There are certain multiple residencies that are in danger of closing completely and could leave multiple hospitals without some key hitters...i.e. buh-bye to Level One status at Receiving.

Current Wayne Students might be fine, however I would advise all potential applicants to look at more stable situations if you can. You do not need to sign up for all this turmoil. Just my $0.02.
 
Rodney Munch said:
I think for everyone involved we can only hope that the new dean will roll out in his Escalade with 24s and sort this matter out. I'm sure his background is amazing and he has done a great job at all his previous jobs, however it might be too late to fix things here. Yes too late...I wouldn't say to worry about something you have no control over, just don't be dumbfounded if you wake up one day and things have gone down the tubes. There are certain multiple residencies that are in danger of closing completely and could leave multiple hospitals without some key hitters...i.e. buh-bye to Level One status at Receiving.

Current Wayne Students might be fine, however I would advise all potential applicants to look at more stable situations if you can. You do not need to sign up for all this turmoil. Just my $0.02.
Click to expand...

I guess I'd be more concerned about this if I planned on staying in Southeast MI, or even the state of Michigan for that matter. When I'm done with all the med school bull****, I hope to get a residency far far away from here. I was only planning on applying to a residency here in metro-Detroit as a last resort back-up plan, just in case I don't match out of state.
 
Four days ago my ortho chairman told me wayne state lost its ortho program, and to look else where when I apply next year. This is how I stumbled upon this whole issue here. Any one else know what programs are goin down?

sscooterguy
 
Probably what will happen is if the DMC goes crazy and decides to replace residents with PAs and NPs, the surrounding hospitals like Henry Ford, St John, Providence, and Beaumont will develop an even stronger association with Wayne State. Students won't have the joy of trudging around the orange halls of the DMC any longer. Or seeing such indigent, poorly cared for patients any longer.

Sounds like Mike Duggan has lost his fooking mind. Time to get rid of the prick. He's done all he can for DMC. Now he is just ruining the soup.
 
Sounds like Mike Duggan has lost his fooking mind. Time to get rid of the prick. He's done all he can for DMC. Now he is just ruining the soup.


You have basically hit the nail on the head...It does take two to tango, but if your partner just keeps stepping on your toes and not caring, you can only do so much...The real question is what is Jenny going to do, as she is the one who is responsible for this "leadership."
 
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