What are my sons chances at anesthesia?

[DufresneMD]

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Hi all, new member here but coming with a question about my son’s chances at anesthesia (since I couldn’t convince him to follow in my footsteps of GI). My apologies if this is in the wrong forum or location. Anywho, to the meat of it:

He’s a third year student. Honored about half of his classes the first two years including anatomy and neuro. So far just passes on his rotations. Step1 was a 215, but he and his wife had my granddaughter during his study period which I’m sure decreased his ability to study. Otherwise no research/publications and probably an average extracurricular resume. Middle tier medical school. Just curious on what your opinions are and how I can help him find programs he is competitive for?

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I’m the millionth person asking a question like this here.

Best for now.

 

[Timeoutofmind]

Hi all, new member here but coming with a question about my son’s chances at anesthesia (since I couldn’t convince him to follow in my footsteps of GI). My apologies if this is in the wrong forum or location. Anywho, to the meat of it:

He’s a third year student. Honored about half of his classes the first two years including anatomy and neuro. So far just passes on his rotations. Step1 was a 215, but he and his wife had my granddaughter during his study period which I’m sure decreased his ability to study. Otherwise no research/publications and probably an average extracurricular resume. Middle tier medical school. Just curious on what your opinions are and how I can help him find programs he is competitive for?

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I’m the millionth person asking a question like this here.

Best for now.

Probably you need to re-evaluate and introspect.
Why is your son not posting this question himself?
Its obvious that you mean well, but he is not a kid anymore. He needs to run his own life.

 

[DufresneMD]

Probably you need to re-evaluate and introspect.
Why is your son not posting this question himself?
Its obvious that you mean well, but he is not a kid anymore. He needs to run his own life.

I would love to hear your reasoning behind your comment if you wouldn’t care to elaborate.
For all I know, he has posted here. But I’ve heard a lot of negative flack regarding the forums here, but I thought what the heck. It’s more for my own curiosity and peace of mind than him. Trust me, I don’t hold his hand. That said, if you constructive advice or comments, that’d be much more appreciated than a psych evaluation.

 

[Neurodelic]

He can match, but not not to elite or high tier programs. Tell him to apply broadly.

 

[NICMAN]

Steps lower than 220 are correlated linked to a lower pass rate on the boards. That is a chance some programs will take if he can show that he has the intellectual rigor to pass the boards (LORs from several known/respected anesthesiologists who can vouch for him). I had two kids in Med School but at the end of the day you have to make it work. He had better kill Step 2 or his scores will represent the Match statistics of those who apply but don't match into anesthesiology.

 

[teeva]

Simple.

Tell your son to read this forum. I bet a majority will say or have said to steer clear of anesthesia. It’s in trouble. Many will also say GI or cards is the best, and IM is an easy step to get into those.

No one is wisest as a kid or developing physician, but docs I know who’ve taken over their parent’s medical practice or job have it nice. He may not see it now, but maybe in 10 years he can get the big picture.

I’d go farther to say going into medicine is a mistake, but it’s too late now, that was your job ;-)

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I would love to hear your reasoning behind your comment if you wouldn’t care to elaborate.
For all I know, he has posted here. But I’ve heard a lot of negative flack regarding the forums here, but I thought what the heck. It’s more for my own curiosity and peace of mind than him. Trust me, I don’t hold his hand. That said, if you constructive advice or comments, that’d be much more appreciated than a psych evaluation.

Don't get bent out of shape🙂

It's generally considered poor form to come on this site and ask for advice unless it is for yourself.

 

[anbuitachi]

Hi all, new member here but coming with a question about my son’s chances at anesthesia (since I couldn’t convince him to follow in my footsteps of GI). My apologies if this is in the wrong forum or location. Anywho, to the meat of it:

He’s a third year student. Honored about half of his classes the first two years including anatomy and neuro. So far just passes on his rotations. Step1 was a 215, but he and his wife had my granddaughter during his study period which I’m sure decreased his ability to study. Otherwise no research/publications and probably an average extracurricular resume. Middle tier medical school. Just curious on what your opinions are and how I can help him find programs he is competitive for?

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I’m the millionth person asking a question like this here.

Best for now.

Apply very broadly he should be able to match to a lower tier program. Maybe mid tier if step 2 goes well.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Agree with all others.

1) He should come here and post himself.

2) Step 1 is so low it puts him in danger of failing board exams, only newer/community (especially rural/midwest) programs will consider without a solid improvement in Step 2. If the score isn't much higher than 225-230 than he will need to apply with a backup specialty. Also look into away rotations.

Also this very scenario has been asked several times within the past couple of weeks, check out the advice in these threads (largely exactly the same):

These two have almost the exact same stats:

Gas WAMC

Anesthesia WAMC

These two are also helpful:

Is all lost?

Anesthesiology Step 1 < 220 as DO wamc (DO student but the same advice applies)

It took me less than a minute to scroll and find these. C'mon!

 

[leaverus]

if I were you, I'd keep pestering him to go into GI.

 

[cleansocks]

My 2 cents:

The biggest problem with anesthesia IMO is that you must be tied to a facility requiring privileges/credentials to practice - unless you do pain management fellowship which is basically a completely different discipline, or are an entrepreneur.

I've learned that the clinical flexibility to work outside of a hospital setting is extremely valuable and not often emphasized enough. For example, being able to practice in a clinic, being able to do IME's, being able to be an expert witness, and other things. General anesthesiologists have almost no opportunities with any of this stuff. Since he's at a crossroads, this is my 2 cents to pick something that might seem less fun to him now, but in the end, his happiness level will probably be similar and he'll be much better off! Seriously - if I had a Dad in a lucrative procedure rich field like GI I would be kicking myself for not having gone into that! My dad is in neurology and strongly discouraged I go into neurology. But looking back, he's got so many other things he can do like expert witness or IME's or clinic work or hospitalist based work that even that field, even though it lacks procedures which I do love, would likely have been a better choice for me.

 

[cleansocks]

P.S. - Having a son now, I probably understand a little about how you might feel reading these threads. Getting "honors" in clinical rotations often isn't about being a good doctor, but rather about being an extrovert, and scoring high on the USMLE's is also not a reflection of how good a doctor he will be, but rather a particular type of reading comprehension and memorization. He very well may deserve to be able to get into one of the top tier programs, but unfortunately those two metrics rule the land of admissions. Still it's an incredible accomplishment to get to where he is so don't let the "he may not even make it in anesthesia" comments make you think any less of him.

 

[Southpaw]

He’ll very likely get an anesthesia spot if he really wants it. It won’t be at a top tier program. I’d encourage him to consider others options though, like others have mentioned. There’s so much to be said for not being tied to a hospital, a surgeon, or an OR. GI and cards are excellent options which I wish I would’ve considered when I was a medical student.

 

[naijacardriodoc]

Wow ppl on SDN are super harsh... just because his Dad is asking a question doesn’t mean he is trying to handhold. He might just be trying to get a different perspective to relay to his son. Who knows what advice his son has been given by his med school or other ppl. It’s not like he is filling out ERAS for him. You guys need to take it easy. It definitely shows that he is most likely a good father trying to help position his son to match decently well. I would be appreciative of that if he were my father.


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[deleted697535]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?
That is crazy that someone thinks that score means anything.

And if usmle is linked to ability to pass and practice anesthetics in the states i really dont know what to say

 

[deleted162650]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?
That is crazy that someone thinks that score means anything.

And if usmle is linked to ability to pass and practice anesthetics in the states i really dont know what to say

It has been shown to correlate to ability to pass the ABA board exams. Since programs want all their residents to pass the boards, they preferentially take applicants that have proven they know how to take a test.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?
That is crazy that someone thinks that score means anything.

And if usmle is linked to ability to pass and practice anesthetics in the states i really dont know what to say

There’s no other good way to rapidly compare hundreds of applicants in quantifiable way.

 

[IlDestriero]

When competition is high, and there’s little real difference between applicants, the little things make all the difference. Because that’s all you have. So scores matter, though LORs matter the most. (Assuming you’re above some arbitrary score threshold for seriously considering applications.)
I’m sure the OPs son will match somewhere, unless he bombs step 2.


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Il Destriero

 

[DufresneMD]

Sorry for the late response, everyone. Been hectic lately. I greatly appreciate everyone’s words of wisdom and it gives me a lot to go off of. As mentioned, my curiosity is more for my own well being. He is doing things at his own pace, I just wanted to get a feel of what to mentally prepare for going forward.

Thanks again very much for all the tips and pointers. Everyone is super helpful!

 

[dannyboy1]

As a US MD with a low but not horribly low step 1 score he will match if he applies broadly to mid-low tier programs. The good news is that almost every program will give you the experience you need to be a competent anesthesiologist. It's also not that hard to get a fellowship if he wants to go that route....

 

[The Physician Philosopher]

Hi all, new member here but coming with a question about my son’s chances at anesthesia (since I couldn’t convince him to follow in my footsteps of GI). My apologies if this is in the wrong forum or location. Anywho, to the meat of it:

He’s a third year student. Honored about half of his classes the first two years including anatomy and neuro. So far just passes on his rotations. Step1 was a 215, but he and his wife had my granddaughter during his study period which I’m sure decreased his ability to study. Otherwise no research/publications and probably an average extracurricular resume. Middle tier medical school. Just curious on what your opinions are and how I can help him find programs he is competitive for?

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I’m the millionth person asking a question like this here.

Best for now.

Given the average step 1 score is in the 230s with a 20 point standard deviation, he is likely in the bottom 1/3 of Step 1 scores. If he applies broadly, he will be fine. Just aim for >10 interviews and he is likely to match, though, I agree not likely at a high tier program.

I applaud you for your curiosity and for checking into things. I am sure your son is doing the same. Being a dad, I'll never fault another dad for caring.

 

[leaverus]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?
That is crazy that someone thinks that score means anything.

I think you're being [more than] a little naïve asking such a question because in that case why single out the usmle? why does the SAT/ACT matter then? or the MCAT? or any standardized test you've ever taken in your life...

 

[pgg]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?
That is crazy that someone thinks that score means anything.

I don't entirely disagree that the USMLE (in particular) isn't a spectacular benchmark for someone's aptitude when it comes to anesthesia ... or any other specialty, for that matter. And it (like the ITEs) were never intended to be used to compare and rank people. The creators and administrators of those tests explicitly say so.

However.

1) People who do well on it do better on the anesthesia written boards. Programs like it when graduates pass their boards.

2) It is about as objective an evaluation device as any, for comparing applicants coming from all places. It isn't perfect, but it's useful, and it's fair.

3) Everyone has to take it for licensing and graduation from medical school, so it doesn't add an additional burden to the applicants.

And 4) Someone will jump on me for saying this ... but that timeless excuse, "I'm just not a good test taker" that accompanies low test scores everywhere in the world, at every level, for every test taken for every purpose ... is mostly crap. Absent genuine learning disabilities (of which the impact on medical education could be a whole 'nother thread), people do poorly on written exams because they lack knowledge and/or insight in applying that knowledge. These things are proportional to time invested, efficiency of studying, and intelligence.

 

[chromuffin]

I think you're being [more than] a little naïve asking such a question because in that case why single out the usmle? why does the SAT/ACT matter then? or the MCAT? or any standardized test you've ever taken in your life...

With this in mind, I think you might find this interesting. Some PDs will take into consideration an applicants MCAT if you speak with them prior to completion of step 2. A PD I spoke with at length asked about various other predictors like college GPA, MCAT, high school rank, SATs, etc.

 

[teeva]

Sorry i cant help, but can i ask why a stupid score in a stupid test like usmle means anything to anyone on the planet?

Because in the software a residency program can eliminate with one click all applicants with test scores <2XX. Or all FMGs.

 

[deleted697535]

I don't get it. If the boards exam correlates with USMLE then the board exam is not a good test.

I know guys who scored off the chart on USMLE that I wouldn't let look after my dog.

The idea that someone can be judged 'competent' after passing a stupid test is insane... So what if I know the ed95 of whatever!?!

It means nothing. Pity

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Don't know why people here are discouraging him from going into anesthesia. I'm sure pops can hook his son up with a sweet gig in an efficient, fast paced GI center. With good payer mix can probably make more than the GI docs

 

[parcus]

I don't get it. If the boards exam correlates with USMLE then the board exam is not a good test.

I know guys who scored off the chart on USMLE that I wouldn't let look after my dog.

The idea that someone can be judged 'competent' after passing a stupid test is insane... So what if I know the ed95 of whatever!?!

It means nothing. Pity

I would say knowledge is most important for people who are actually involved in improving and innovating. Any monkey can be taught how to do procedures or follow guidelines. Nonetheless, "So what if I know that a disease may have this weird presentation?" it does make a huge difference. IMO, in medicine it is often the case that 90% of the results come from 10% of the knowledge, that is why you might have the impression that knowledge is not that important.

 

[IlDestriero]

Don't know why people here are discouraging him from going into anesthesia. I'm sure pops can hook his son up with a sweet gig in an efficient, fast paced GI center. With good payer mix can probably make more than the GI docs

That ship has sailed.
Now the GI centers employ the anesthesiologists for a fixed salary and they “handle the billing” for you.
AKA keep all the loot for themselves.


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Il Destriero

 

[Ezekiel2517]

That ship has sailed.
Now the GI centers employ the anesthesiologists for a fixed salary and they “handle the billing” for you.
AKA keep all the loot for themselves.


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Il Destriero

Maybe in your neck of the woods but not where I am. And in a lot of other practices in CA as well. Still a cash cow.

 

[gshocke]

He’ll very likely get an anesthesia spot if he really wants it. It won’t be at a top tier program. I’d encourage him to consider others options though, like others have mentioned. There’s so much to be said for not being tied to a hospital, a surgeon, or an OR. GI and cards are excellent options which I wish I would’ve considered when I was a medical student.

I dont understand the 'not tied to a hospital, surgeon, or OR' part. the way healthcare is moving, most doctors, across many specialities do not work independently or have their own practice. majority of primary care facilities are becoming hospital owned

 

[Southpaw]

I dont understand the 'not tied to a hospital, surgeon, or OR' part. the way healthcare is moving, most doctors, across many specialities do not work independently or have their own practice. majority of primary care facilities are becoming hospital owned

If I were a cardiologist or a GI doctor, even if I were affiliated or my practice was run by the hospital, I would have a large say in how my day was run. I’d dictate when I saw the last patient of the day or when I started my last procedure of the day. Even better, if I owned my own clinic, and weren’t run by the hospital nor affiliated with a hospital, I wouldn’t even have to deal with call (aside from covering my practice). I could also do my procedures in office. That being said, I know some GI docs and cardiologists at my hospital whose practice is run by the hospital, and they aren’t happy. In fact, they’re extremely unhappy.

However, there are serious downsides to the schedule of an anesthesiologist and med students don’t often consider it. Your day starts when the OR/surgeon says it starts and it ends whenever you’re relieved or your OR has no more cases. If you’re on call, you may be up doing cases all night or you may be woken up at ungodly hours by screaming women needing an epidural.

Anyway, there’s freedom in having your own patients and owning your own practice. GI, cards, and lots of other specialties allow that. Anesthesiology (except for pain) doesn’t. That’s the point I’m driving at.

 

[Southpaw]

None of that means I’m unhappy in anesthesia. Actually I’m extremely happy. But my personality is such that I’d probably be happy in a number of fields. And I never saw the real downsides of anesthesia when I was a med student.