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Ok I would never do this but how do the med schools confirm that the people aren't lying on the resumes? I have no clinical experience right now but can I really go ahead and write down I have 150 hours and get away with it?
 

ndafife

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You have to put down contact people for the experience. You have to do a write up explaining the experience. If you want to roll the dice on those, be my guest.

And if you get caught you're not getting into med school.
 

Lannister

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What if you put down a fake experience and then put your friend as the contact, and told the friend to lie for you if they called? Obviously that would be a horrible thing to do, but I wonder if you could get away with it...
 

Dr.Sticks

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150 is not worth telling a lie for
Put down a thousand, or something more.. hahaha
 

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Munty

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I've had to sign many terms and conditions on applications that say even if you are accepted, if they find out you lied on the application, they will terminate that acceptance immediately. Two years into med school? Kicked out. Graduated with your MD? Stripped of your degree. So I wouldn't risk it at all. If there are holes in your application, fill them with real experiences.
 

Avanafil

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It's not worth it, man. I doubt a little lie, if uncaught, is enough to make a losing application win. However, if caught, you are done.
 
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Dr. Death

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I've had to sign many terms and conditions on applications that say even if you are accepted, if they find out you lied on the application, they will terminate that acceptance immediately. Two years into med school? Kicked out. Graduated with your MD? Stripped of your degree. So I wouldn't risk it at all. If there are holes in your application, fill them with real experiences.
This definitely depends on the lie. I highly doubt you would get stripped of your MD by exaggerating your hours of community service.
 

mimelim

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I'd bet quite a bit that a shocking number of people do this every single cycle and get away with. And a very large number exaggerate hours of service or shadowing, contributions to clubs they were in, etc.
I don't think many outright lie, but certainly the exaggerating bit is definitely true. Which is why most adcoms don't particularly care about the quantity and focus more on the quality of the experience and what it meant to the development of the candidate.

By the same token, the number of times at committee meetings someone, either a medical student or faculty said, "They just seem fake." (referring to their gestalt of the person, not the hours) is very real as well. It usually is from someone saying, "Ya, I volunteered at XYZ hospital for 2000 hours over 4 years." And when you try to have a conversation with them about it, it is clear that they could have gotten just as much out of those '2000 hours' by flipping burgers at McDonalds for a summer.

Despite all the logic in the world, people still embellish, but it just puts them at risk. A very minuscule risk, but a real one. If something seems fishy or leaves a bad taste in adcom's mouths, you are going to have a worse cycle. If you get caught, even on something minor, many places will not consider you at all. Nobody got into medical school because they had 300 hours instead of 200. So why bother?
 
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You have to put down contact people for the experience. You have to do a write up explaining the experience. If you want to roll the dice on those, be my guest.

And if you get caught you're not getting into med school.
Is there any source on this? I see people say this every time this thread comes up, but unless its a situation where it is somehow discovered after the fact and you get kicked out(which has happened according to people on this board) I doubt it. I think what would happen is that school would reject you instantly and then forget you even existed while they attend to the thousands of other apps. The process of even proving somebody lied about things like ECs which have a subjective component to blackball them, seems like an enormous waste of time for most schools.

That being said, dont lie for 2 reasons. 1)Most importantly, integrity, 2)Also important, it would really suck to get kicked out 3 years in after you took a mortgage out in student loans.
 

ndafife

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Is there any source on this? I see people say this every time this thread comes up, but unless its a situation where it is somehow discovered after the fact and you get kicked out(which has happened according to people on this board) I doubt it. I think what would happen is that school would reject you instantly and then forget you even existed while they attend to the thousands of other apps. The process of even proving somebody lied about things like ECs which have a subjective component to blackball them, seems like an enormous waste of time for most schools.

That being said, dont lie for 2 reasons. 1)Most importantly, integrity, 2)Also important, it would really suck to get kicked out 3 years in after you took a mortgage out in student loans.
Any source? Common sense? If you lie on an application they will not let you in.

EDIT
Oh... you misinterpreted "not getting into med school" and "kicked out of medical school" simple mistake really.

EDIT 2
I don't have concrete examples of anyone being kicked out. I know there is something about honesty and stuff in my schools policies that I think it would be under. You'd have to lie about something pretty severe for it to even come up multiple years later though.
 
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Any source? Common sense? If you lie on an application they will not let you in.

EDIT
Oh... you misinterpreted "not getting into med school" and "kicked out of medical school" simple mistake really.
No, I thought you meant if one school caught you in a lie they would notify all other schools and essentially blackball you. A lot of people take that position when these threads come up. Sorry if that is not your position.
 
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Dr. Death

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I think he meant "you won't get in anywhere" Do the schools send out a PSA saying "So and so lied!!! Don't let them in" It is possible. Banks do this when there are robberies in the area.
 

ndafife

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No, I thought you meant if one school caught you in a lie they would notify all other schools and essentially blackball you. A lot of people take that position when these threads come up. Sorry if that is not your position.
Maybe a few schools close together where the adcoms know eachother, see a lot of the same applicants, and would communicate it.

I'm not an adcom so I really don't know what they would do in that situation
 

Goro

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Because we're good at catching liars.
Because we ask you about stuff in your apps.

Ok I would never do this but how do the med schools confirm that the people aren't lying on the resumes? I have no clinical experience right now but can I really go ahead and write down I have 150 hours and get away with it?
 

tea guzzling traveler

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What about if people conceal transcripts? I was pretty anal about submitting all my transcripts, even the CC during the summer, but I could imagine applicants not following through there, especially if they got F's and would like the experience forgotten... How do adcoms find out about old transcripts?
 
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What about if people conceal transcripts? I was pretty anal about submitting all my transcripts, even the CC during the summer, but I could imagine applicants not following through there, especially if they got F's and would like the experience forgotten... How do adcoms find out about old transcripts?
Lol doing something like that would be the dumbest possible thing you could do. If you add 50 volunteer hours to your app, chances are literally nobody will ever look into it and if they did it would be at the application stage. After you got in, it would be over if you could live with yourself. Nobody is going to waste the resources to investigate whether you inflated your volunteer hours after you matriculated. Concealing a transcript in the digital age however is something that could screw you at any single point up until the day you die. Its something that is probably very easy to verify if they are looking for it and there is no grey area like with estimating volunteer hours. Either you concealed the transcript or didnt(and the primary makes it very clear they want all of them). Imagine they somehow find out right after you finish residency and your degree is revoked.
 
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I am not sure how much adcoms communicate with each other, but I'll tell you this.
I am a therapist, worked in rehab for 4 years. At least as far as other therapists go (I mean PT, OT, SLP, PTAs, OTAs, etc...) it is a small, small, small world.
I work all over my city and in the rural areas within an hour of it (across two states, as it's a city right in the border of two) and I regularly meet people that I don't know, but know me from a friend in whatever building.
For me, this has been mostly good. I had a colder relationship with a former classmate at one time, and when I worked in that building initially, the rest of the staff was unwelcoming.
It took a while for them to see I am a good clinician and good to work with.
But a silly dispute from college was enough to stain that for a long time.
If you're unethical, cheating on hours, bad with patients- it gets around, and fast.
The people you work with become the bulk of your friends, and the new people you meet- mostly their friends also in the field. So even if you don't work with everyone, everyone gets a chance to know you, or know of you.
I would not be surprised in the least if it's the same way for physicians, especially physicians in academia. It's a smaller world than you likely think.
Better to always be ethical, exercise integrity, honesty, etc.
One, because that's the kind of practitioner you should want to be.
Two, there is no coming back from it if you are caught.
 

BigRedBeta

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Is there any source on this? I see people say this every time this thread comes up, but unless its a situation where it is somehow discovered after the fact and you get kicked out(which has happened according to people on this board) I doubt it. I think what would happen is that school would reject you instantly and then forget you even existed while they attend to the thousands of other apps. The process of even proving somebody lied about things like ECs which have a subjective component to blackball them, seems like an enormous waste of time for most schools.

1)Most importantly, integrity.
What about if people conceal transcripts? I was pretty anal about submitting all my transcripts, even the CC during the summer, but I could imagine applicants not following through there, especially if they got F's and would like the experience forgotten... How do adcoms find out about old transcripts?
Yes, people get kicked out. And yes, there are certain types of lies that are far more egregious than others, that are much easier to verify than others, and that have variable degrees of punishment.

True stories: my in-state medical school required 2 semesters Biochem for entrance - probably not as unique now, but 10 years ago, it was one of the very few. Guy I went to undergrad with started taking the sequence as a senior, had obviously applied in the fall so that first semester course showed up on his initial transcript and he filled out his AMCAS saying he planned to take the second course. He completed the first semester, started the second semester course, and got his acceptance before the deadline for withdrawals from class. Since he was accepted, he just withdrew, didn't have to take the W since it was so early and then coasted through his 2nd semester. Fast forward to the third week of med school, suddenly, he's no longer around. Turns out they finally got around to verifying final transcripts and realized he didn't complete the admission requirements and he was gone. I ran into him at the bars one night a couple weeks later and he told me that he asked them if he could just take the course and regain his acceptance, and they flat out told him "absolutely not" because his lack of integrity was apparent and they didn't feel his character was consistent with the ideals they felt were important for physicians.

Second story, but different set of circumstances and results: My med school did a background check, and so when you signed your enrollment agreement, you obviously had to disclose any thing you thought might show up. In between that disclosure and the background check being run, my friend got a ticket for public urination. Background check gets run, ticket shows up, my friend gets called into the office of the Dean of Students for not disclosing. Obviously he couldn't have disclosed it, explains it was a mistake, they have a good laugh and the Dean of Students ends up talking to him for an hour about his own hijinks in college and med school.



But in the end it comes down to integrity - for the rest of your career you're going to have to disclose a lot of information, some of it that is not going to be positive on your part. Every time you apply for a medical license, any job, privileges at a hospital or for acceptance into a insurance payment program (which you need to actually get paid) you're going to have to disclose any disciplinary actions, law suits, or mental health/substance abuse issues. If you lie on those, you don't get a license, don't get a job, don't get hospital privileges, or don't get paid for your work. There is a need for honesty and integrity from the very beginning.
 

bshap000

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Many schools have provisions in the certification statements you have to agree to on the secondary app that says you acknowledge that if you are found lying on that or the primary it is grounds for dismissal, and at some schools revocation of your degree.

In other words, don't do it. Not worth the risk.
 

gonnif

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If you get accepted to medical school, you have on affirmed on at least 3 documents (AMCAS primary, school secondary, school matriculation agreement and/or acceptance, that you have not intentionally misled with false, inaccurate, or omission of information. To do so would be an ethical violation and withdrawal of your acceptance up until the time you have been awarded your MD. Yes, they can kick you out in your 4th year, even if an high achieving student and courts have upheld this.

How would they find out, you ask? In the past decade or so schools have begun a more intense due diligence on candidates, mostly in reaction to a spate of fake degrees, publications, etc by few doctors about 10-20 years ago. Partly for affecting accreditation and partly for bad "optics" this would cause to the school. So in addition to to the criminal background checks, many schools some point from final candidacy to post acceptance will before name checks on the candidate as well as spot check letters and EC.

So while the probability of the risk may be small, the impact of the risk would be huge and unrecoverable.
 
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Ad2b

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If you're willing to lie about 150 hours of community service or shadowing or ... what else are you going to lie about when you are a licensed physician? :eek::eek:
 

Holmwood

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Whether you get caught or not isn't even the most important issue.

If you don't like working with patients then you have no place in medicine. You can't figure that out without clinical experience.
 

NotASerialKiller

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If you get accepted to medical school, you have on affirmed on at least 3 documents (AMCAS primary, school secondary, school matriculation agreement and/or acceptance, that you have not intentionally misled with false, inaccurate, or omission of information. To do so would be an ethical violation and withdrawal of your acceptance up until the time you have been awarded your MD. Yes, they can kick you out in your 4th year, even if an high achieving student and courts have upheld this.
They wouldn't be able to revoke your MD for lying on your application?
 

gonnif

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They wouldn't be able to revoke your MD for lying on your application?
Thats more problematic and would be outside of the medical school's purview at that point. Once an degree is awarded, it would be a high hurdle for a school to retroactively withdraw it. However, it could affect having your license revoked. If a physician was found to have substantially lied about his educational background, it could impact his licensing. This has happened in the not very distant past. Hence why schools, hospitals, etc, have increased their due diligence in checking/verifying the background of applicants for any position, be it student, resident or attending. Besides the obvious bad "optics" that having such a person connected with your institution, it would leave it vulnerable to direct legal action as well as business costs, opportunities, etc. With hospitals becoming large corporate and competitive systems, it could easily drive away patients, increase insurance, etc.
 

oOKawaiiOo

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I spoke to a URM pharm student about his success on getting into pharmacy. I enjoy listening successful stories.

However, he told me he lied on his application by stating he worked at a pharmacy and did X,Y, and Z, which was provided by a close friend who worked at a pharmacy. I was SHOCKED.
 
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I spoke to a URM pharm student about his success on getting into pharmacy. I enjoy listening successful stories.

However, he told me he lied on his application by stating he worked at a pharmacy and did X,Y, and Z, which was provided by a close friend who worked at a pharmacy. I was SHOCKED.
1.) Ugh.
2.) is this something he was somehow proud of? I can't imagine lying about that, and telling someone like its no big deal, or funny, or whatever.
3.) ugh.
 
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Holmwood

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I spoke to a URM pharm student about his success on getting into pharmacy. I enjoy listening successful stories.

However, he told me he lied on his application by stating he worked at a pharmacy and did X,Y, and Z, which was provided by a close friend who worked at a pharmacy. I was SHOCKED.
Hoho, same. I know of someone who did the exact same + lied about life experiences. She's currently in a pharm program at UCLA despite being an emotionless drone.

Life is sometimes a sick joke.
 

oOKawaiiOo

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But girls don't fart.....
I live with 3 sisters and they have farting competitions. ...........Sigh

1.) Ugh.
2.) is this something he was somehow proud of? I can't imagine lying about that, and telling someone like its no big deal, or funny, or whatever.
3.) ugh.
He was proud that he got away with it. Still, it worries me that he will be a licensed pharmacist.
 

StudyLater

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I live with 3 sisters and they have farting competitions. ...........Sigh



He was proud that he got away with it. Still, it worries me that he will be a licensed pharmacist.
Who knows? He might be a compassionate, caring practitioner. Or then again he might be a mindless drone in it for the money.

Which would just make him like most of the other students.
 

StudyLater

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Not practitioner, but legal drug dealer. lol
Yeah. But more like a super nice, harmless pot dealer in pj's at noon that shares his munchies with you vs. a heavily armed cocaine dealer that gives you a death stare and is just waiting for you to give him a reason.
 

SIGINT

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What if you put down a fake experience and then put your friend as the contact, and told the friend to lie for you if they called? Obviously that would be a horrible thing to do, but I wonder if you could get away with it...
I've heard of people doing this and getting away with it. If you do it though, don't go around telling people you did it because people don't want to associate with people with such little integrity.
 
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What if you put down a fake experience and then put your friend as the contact, and told the friend to lie for you if they called? Obviously that would be a horrible thing to do, but I wonder if you could get away with it...
do not you need to put the hospital/agency's name? I thought med schools mostly have info about major hospitals volunteer department's phone number!
 

LizzyM

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do not you need to put the hospital/agency's name? I thought med schools mostly have info about major hospitals volunteer department's phone number!
Yeah, I once got an application from someone who listed a contact who had not worked at the institution during the period that the applicant claimed to have been volunteering there (that coordinator had left for another job before the applicant claimed to have started). Had the applicant just borrowed the contact's name from someone who had volunteered there a year earlier? I didn't bother to find out.
 
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Pocket Rockets

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Yeah, I once got an application from someone who listed a contact who had not worked at the institution during the period that the applicant claimed to have been volunteering there (that coordinator had left for another job before the applicant claimed to have started). Had the applicant just borrowed the contact's name from someone who had volunteered there a year earlier? I didn't bother to find out.
How would that have worked out for the applicant even if that person worked there? Adcoms call the contact and they have no idea who the applicant is..
 

LizzyM

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How would that have worked out for the applicant even if that person worked there? Adcoms call the contact and they have no idea who the applicant is..
I think that the applicant was gambling that he'd be among the 99.9% of applicants who do not have their experiences verified by anyone. It comes down to, "would you cheat to advance your career if there is no chance that anyone would find out?"
 
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I've wondered if any of the experiences get verified - for most of them that were a few years ago, I'll put down contact info for whoever my supervisor was even though I have no idea if they are still in that position. My gut tells me no one will check any experience that isn't high profile (publication, award/prize) because those can be done easily via google.

Making up an experience as a whole is a terrible idea unless you are a crazy good liar. It would be terrible in an interview if you said you volunteered at an ER, then within a couple questions about your experience it becomes very clear you've never set foot in one.
 

ImmunoLove

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What about if people conceal transcripts? I was pretty anal about submitting all my transcripts, even the CC during the summer, but I could imagine applicants not following through there, especially if they got F's and would like the experience forgotten... How do adcoms find out about old transcripts?
my understanding is that there is a "clearing house" that tracks all of your education (with your SSN) which is used to verify all the transcripts etc.
 

ImmunoLove

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Also, don't lie. It's SO not worth it (utilitarian argument for those who don't buy the deontological one that lying is wrong). Just why? If you need to get more clinical experience, then spend more hours at the hospital. It's not rocket science.
 

ImmunoLove

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I think that the applicant was gambling that he'd be among the 99.9% of applicants who do not have their experiences verified by anyone. It comes down to, "would you cheat to advance your career if there is no chance that anyone would find out?"
I do wonder, though, what is the typical approach to verification? Do all activities get verified? And how? Just calling the contact? I ask because there seems to be a lot of people entertaining the thought of lying/cheating/exaggerating in the hopes of getting away with it, and I wonder what they're really up against. It seems like a policy like "we verify EVERYTHING" would get people to knock off with the nonsense.
 

LizzyM

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I do wonder, though, what is the typical approach to verification? Do all activities get verified? And how? Just calling the contact? I ask because there seems to be a lot of people entertaining the thought of lying/cheating/exaggerating in the hopes of getting away with it, and I wonder what they're really up against. It seems like a policy like "we verify EVERYTHING" would get people to knock off with the nonsense.
Imagine 5,000 applications... do we verify the 15 activities of each of the 5,000? The staffing required to do that would be enormous. Instead, we take you at your word. If something looks odd, or if a response during an interview raises suspicion, then someone might make a call to verify. If it turns out the person couldn't describe much of their activity X because they didn't engage in activity X, then the solution is easy: "decline!".
 
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Goro

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Schools are starting to spot-check nowadays, do to the propensity of some people to not understand that lying is lying and cheating is cheating.

Check out this thread as an example:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-exaggerated-my-ecs-on-amcas-and-i-got-called-on-it.1162589/

I've wondered if any of the experiences get verified - for most of them that were a few years ago, I'll put down contact info for whoever my supervisor was even though I have no idea if they are still in that position. My gut tells me no one will check any experience that isn't high profile (publication, award/prize) because those can be done easily via google.

Making up an experience as a whole is a terrible idea unless you are a crazy good liar. It would be terrible in an interview if you said you volunteered at an ER, then within a couple questions about your experience it becomes very clear you've never set foot in one.
 
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