What is everyone's opinion on alternative medicine and naturopathic medicine?

[Josh L.Ac.]

You made several points that should make all allopathic doctors think.

1. Taking more time to listen. If we had the time.
2. Focus more on prevention. If they follow our instructions. Its hard for anyone to follow those exercise instructions.
3. Many patients feel left out or ignored when they go to an allopathic physician, so they seek other help. In other words, they feel they need their hands held when they go to a doctor. so if that does not take place they go somewhere else that they can feel safe. Even if it does not work.

For many patients diet and exercise and other preventive methods can delay or stop many diseases. But, there are many more out there that no matter what they do, they will get HTN, or High cholesterol or diabetes.

You said that the allopathic doctors have "failed" the patient.

In many ways we have. But we have been set up to fail from the start. At least in the current medical system. I can't spend the next 40 minutes to talk to a patient. I only have 10.

Acutally I don't believe that allopathic doctors "fail" their patients [I'm in an accelerated BSN program right now, deciding between FNP or MD]. But the sentiment tends to run high the in groups I outlined above. Often times at the Bastyr Natural Health Clinic [integrated ND, acupuncture, CHM, nutrition, and counseling] I heard patients express their feelings in terms like this. Usually I just held my tongue because attempting to delve deeper into why they felt this way would have met with resistance from the patients as well as cut into the time I had with the patient - for acupuncture, we had to interview the patient, report to the supervisor, come up with a treatment plan, wait around to find a supervisor to okay the plan or make changes, give the treatment (which was usually cut short), then assess for follow-up.


How ironic that we also ran low on time with our patients.


But I also heard many "stories" about the evil allopathic system from students, both ND and acupuncture. With further discussion, it often appeared that the student really didn't know what they were talking about, or they were making arguments based off of a logical fallacy [especially strawman arguments and false cause-effect]. Don't get me wrong, there are many ND students that are quite intelligent and desire an integrated model...but many do have their heads completely and utterly up their REN1 / DU1 area.

I sent out the MSNBC article to many of the ND students at Bastyr. I've recieved several great rebuttals, a few angry comments directed at me, and several "shiny-happy-people / esoteric BS" responses.

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[sophiejane]

The real frustration, IMO, is when you get folks who insist on taking their vitamin E and B-complex instead of their beta blocker, aspirin, statin, etc. after they have their MI with bypass or stenting. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Yeah, that's not at all cool. I guess you do your best to educate, then let them make up their own mind.

Have you ever fired a patient who insists on coming to you for care but doesn't participate in the treatment you prescribe?

I think I'd rather encourage them see the ND or Chinese Medicine practitioner exclusively if they aren't on board with what I'm recommending.

 

[Faebinder]

Yeah, that's not at all cool. I guess you do your best to educate, then let them make up their own mind.

Have you ever fired a patient who insists on coming to you for care but doesn't participate in the treatment you prescribe?

I think I'd rather encourage them see the ND or Chinese Medicine practitioner exclusively if they aren't on board with what I'm recommending.

I believe that would be abandonment of a patient.... though my understanding is that after several attempts to reason with them, it's no longer an abandonment but a choice against medical advise... so at that point you can just tell them that you wont see them till they start taking their treatments.

Kent would know more about this.... I lack the experience.

 

[zenman]

Everything good in life is unnatural. Humans found this planet a dirty diseased ****hole and we made it better. I, for one, am gratefull.

So, what do you base your comment on? Is the planet actually better now than it was the year I was born (1951)?

 

[logos]

So, what do you base your comment on? Is the planet actually better now than it was the year I was born (1951)?

Yes. In almost every way that I can think of.

1951 was 4 years before Salk polio vaccine came out. It was only about 10 years after penecillin came out. Life expectancy has increased incredibly since then.


Can you think of any ways it isnt better? I can only think of a few off hand...


More importantly, my point is that whats out there in nature is not ideal, so man has made it better. We take what is out there and adapt it to make our lives better. We were cold so we built fires and shelter and clothing. We were hungry so we developed agriculture. An obcession with the idea that something being "natural" necessarily makes it better than something that is "artificial" isn't healthy and it just isnt true.

Nature sucked, so we made it better. (and thats a good thing)

 

[deleted87716]

Have you ever fired a patient who insists on coming to you for care but doesn't participate in the treatment you prescribe?

Actually, no...but it's an option, should it come to that. It's not abandonment if done properly, although in situations where a patient is unstable or acutely ill, it's not a good idea.

Patients are noncompliant all the time...you can't fire 'em all. I make sure that I've documented everything, including my recommendations in detail, my conversations with them regarding the potential consequences of their failure to follow my recommendations, and the patient's stated reasons for not following them. I'll continue to try to persuade them on follow-up visits, if they keep coming back.

 

[8744]

So, what do you base your comment on? Is the planet actually better now than it was the year I was born (1951)?

Yes. In almost all respects. You have memory problems. I cannot remember a single time in my life when the Israelis weren't fighting the Arabs, people weren't starving, wars were not being fought, politicians weren't crooked, and everything wasn't going to hell in a handbasket.

Just seven years before you were born the Germans gassed six million Jews, fer crying out loud, and the Soviets were well on their way to exterminating millions in the gulags. In 1951 a black man couldn't drink out of a "Whites Only" water faucet, there was no treatment for CAD, and cars didn't have seat belts or child seats.

I don't know what kind of madness has descended on the modern world. Maybe it's some kind of amnesia. There were no good old days. The good old days sucked. I had the chance to see my boyhood home and it was a dump. We were middle class back then. I am middle class right now. My house is a lot nicer and I enjoy a vastly higher standard of living now as opposed to back then.

I know you have some kind of idea that life was idyllic back in the caveman days, what with all your shamanistic bull****, but that's just your indoctrination. You still subscribe to the idea of Rousseau's "noble savage."

 

[somemaybedoc]

Well said.

 

[zenman]

Well said.

Actually Panda gets so riled up he can't think straight. I thought we were talking about the planet, not the people on it and what they did. So is the planet any better now than it was in 1951? Surely some of you bright boys have some input.

 

[deleted87716]

My favorite is the ones that are actually toxic. "I took the Liver Cleanse and then turned bright yellow". Really why do you think that happened? "It must have been the two Tylenol I took last month. I heard they are bad for the liver."

Many patients overestimate the risks of conventional treatment, just as they overestimate the benefits of alternative treatment. When using both, they typically attribute greater benefit to their unconventional therapies. One of my patients with metastatic prostate CA received a Viadur implant and also took a self-selected regimen of various herbs and supplements. When his CA regressed, he gave full credit to the supplements...going so far as to demand that his urologist remove the Viadur implant, as "it wasn't doing any good." Fortunately, the urologist and I were able to convince him that it might be better to leave it in, "just in case it was helping in some way."

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Many patients overestimate the risks of conventional treatment, just as they overestimate the benefits of alternative treatment. When using both, they typically attribute greater benefit to their unconventional therapies. One of my patients with metastatic prostate CA received a Viadur implant and also took a self-selected regimen of various herbs and supplements. When his CA regressed, he gave full credit to the supplements...going so far as to demand that his urologist remove the Viadur implant, as "it wasn't doing any good." Fortunately, the urologist and I were able to convince him that it might be better to leave it in, "just in case it was helping in some way."

In addition to confusing cause and effect, many of these patients have a sense of false empowerment - if they research, buy, and take supplements that means they are more active in their treatment then if they passively sit back and let doctors treat them in a manner they can barely comprehend.


I blame television.

 

[deleted87716]

I blame television.

Nah...it's those "Harry Potter" books.

In all seriousness, though, I believe that consumer-directed advertising by drug companies does more to interfere with compliance than it does to enhance it. After all, you don't hear a lot of scary-sounding side effects in those ads for supplements, do you? Take "Focus Factor," for instance. That one cracks me up. Incredulous Person on the Street: "They'll send it to you for free? It must be good!" And of course, the always-impressive endorsement from the president of the company: "I've taken Focus Factor since we first introduced it over two and a half years ago, and I wouldn't work a day without it!" Gee, if the guy who stands to benefit the most from you buying something says that it's good, how can you doubt it? "I'm not only the Hair Club President, I'm also a client."

 

[8744]

Actually Panda gets so riled up he can't think straight. I thought we were talking about the planet, not the people on it and what they did. So is the planet any better now than it was in 1951? Surely some of you bright boys have some input.

Without the people on it, the planet is just a ball of rock careening around the sun. It is true that mankind has ruined your view of pristine nature but what do you suggest we do, kill nine out of ten people so you don't have look at 'em?

For all of your kumbayah-singing, let's just hug everybody mentality you have something of a disgust for your fellow humans. And the usual liberal selfishness that wishes everybody would just stop living so you can fly to Aspen (or Bali) and enjoy nature in peace.

 

[somemaybedoc]

Actually Panda gets so riled up he can't think straight. I thought we were talking about the planet, not the people on it and what they did. So is the planet any better now than it was in 1951? Surely some of you bright boys have some input.

It's a better place to live. Most people are better off. People are what count. Enough said.

 

[Faebinder]

I think the world is a better place overall... but we did lose some good things. And yes I am talking about the planet not the people.... people don't change.

 

[zenman]

I think the world is a better place overall... but we did lose some good things. And yes I am talking about the planet not the people.... people don't change.

Finally, a smart person. I'm wondering if the planet is better now, ie., pollution, global warming, creepy bacteria...but then how much is caused by the inhabitants? People may not change but our toys and other modern tools cause more damage.

A guy in Bali told me that a roof made with grass grown naturally might last 20 years while a roof made from grass which had grown fast due to fertilizer might last 10-15 years. I thought it was an interesting comment.

 

[zenman]

Hey Josh have you read Watching Your Back: Chinese Martial Arts and Traditional Medicine by Anthony Schmieg, M.D.? I'm just starting on it.

 

[zenman]

For all of your kumbayah-singing, let's just hug everybody mentality you have something of a disgust for your fellow humans. And the usual liberal selfishness that wishes everybody would just stop living so you can fly to Aspen (or Bali) and enjoy nature in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/v/vr3x_RRJdd4

 

[somemaybedoc]

Finally, a smart person. I'm wondering if the planet is better now, ie., pollution, global warming, creepy bacteria...but then how much is caused by the inhabitants? People may not change but our toys and other modern tools cause more damage.

A guy in Bali told me that a roof made with grass grown naturally might last 20 years while a roof made from grass which had grown fast due to fertilizer might last 10-15 years. I thought it was an interesting comment.

The modern tools and toys improve our quality of life thus making the planet a better place to be a human on. I'll take slightly weird bacteria, pollution, and warming over TB, Black Death, Small Pox, starvation, immobility, and ignorance.

Do you have any idea how many times over the same quantity of grass can be grown with the fertilizers? Our defiance of Malthusian projections alone suggests quite a few times.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Hey Josh have you read Watching Your Back: Chinese Martial Arts and Traditional Medicine by Anthony Schmieg, M.D.? I'm just starting on it.

Looks interesting. Here's one I had the opportunity to skim through once:

http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History...ef=sr_1_1/102-8776091-5450565?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[ForbiddenComma]

A guy in Bali told me that a roof made with grass grown naturally might last 20 years while a roof made from grass which had grown fast due to fertilizer might last 10-15 years. I thought it was an interesting comment.

And a roof made of manmade tile may last for 100 years or more. Industry pwns the naturalist, spiritual people of the earth once again.

Your shamen that you like to hold up as the exemplars of the practice of medicine have had no noticeable effect throughout history on the devastation wrought by malaria, smallpox, polio, diptheria, or yellow fever. Care to make the same accusation against Western medicine?

I know denouncing Western culture is fun and lets one feel morally superior, but do you really think the standard of living in Bali is higher than America? Yes, we paid some prices along the way, but I for one feel lucky to be living a soulless, oil-addicted, spiritually bankrupt existence here where I can actually get vaccinations, wireless internet, refrigeration, water that doesn't have to be boiled first, DVD movies that feature car chases and big explosions, and air conditioning.

Damn it all, I like my air conditioning.

 

[deleted87716]

I know denouncing Western culture is fun and lets one feel morally superior, but do you really think the standard of living in Bali is higher than America?

Oh. God. Not. Again.

Don't you guys already have a thread going about this?

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Well, what else did you expect to happen after zenman finally found this thread?

 

[Faebinder]

Well, what else did you expect to happen after zenman finally found this thread?

 

[zenman]

The modern tools and toys improve our quality of life thus making the planet a better place to be a human on. I'll take slightly weird bacteria, pollution, and warming over TB, Black Death, Small Pox, starvation, immobility, and ignorance.

Do you have any idea how many times over the same quantity of grass can be grown with the fertilizers? Our defiance of Malthusian projections alone suggests quite a few times.

I agree with you...I enjoy the benefits of modern life. But is our progress destroying the place we live in? I won't have to worry about it, but you might. Plus I understand a lot of scientists are concerned.

Now, if i lived in Bali, I'd much rather build my roof with the grass grown naturally as I would not have to replace it as often...period.

 

[zenman]

And a roof made of manmade tile may last for 100 years or more. Industry pwns the naturalist, spiritual people of the earth once again.

Have you checked on the age of some ancient buildings still standing today?

Your shamen that you like to hold up as the exemplars of the practice of medicine have had no noticeable effect throughout history on the devastation wrought by malaria, smallpox, polio, diptheria, or yellow fever. Care to make the same accusation against Western medicine?

I'm all for any form of medicine as long as you're also aware of it's limitations.

I know denouncing Western culture is fun and lets one feel morally superior, but do you really think the standard of living in Bali is higher than America? Yes, we paid some prices along the way, but I for one feel lucky to be living a soulless, oil-addicted, spiritually bankrupt existence here where I can actually get vaccinations, wireless internet, refrigeration, water that doesn't have to be boiled first, DVD movies that feature car chases and big explosions, and air conditioning.

If I denounced western culture, I'd move somewhere else. Actually a week without TV, phones, email, AC, etc, resulted in a week of great sleep. Try it sometime...or have your feet never been off concrete? Those prices along the way are what I'm talking about...will they bite us in the ass someday?

 

[somemaybedoc]

Have you checked on the age of some ancient buildings still standing today?

The vast majority of those building are built of stone or baked bricks. Ancient building that were made of mud and grass are for the most part little but rubble today.

 

[flighterdoc]

A guy in Bali told me that a roof made with grass grown naturally might last 20 years while a roof made from grass which had grown fast due to fertilizer might last 10-15 years. I thought it was an interesting comment.

Really? And he has the data to back it up? Real data, not N=1 BS from some guy squatting in the mud?

 

[zenman]

Really? And he has the data to back it up? Real data, not N=1 BS from some guy squatting in the mud?

No, it was just an interesting comment from a guy driving a Toyoto, not squatting in the mud. I don't care to look up any research on the matter. Will you do it for me?

 

[flighterdoc]

No, it was just an interesting comment from a guy driving a Toyoto, not squatting in the mud. I don't care to look up any research on the matter. Will you do it for me?

It's impossible to prove a negative....

 

[zenman]

It's impossible to prove a negative....

Haven't "negative" numbers been "proven?"

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

As I mentoned earlier, I sent out the MSNBC article to the students at Bastyr to see what I responses I would get. I did get sent a link to the following article, which is partially a rebuttal against the "Saw Palmetto sucks" argument:


http://www.bastyr.edu/news/news.asp?NewsID=1016


Saw palmetto for prostate health
Eric Yarnell, 9/28/06
Saw palmetto is a well-established herbal treatment for men who have symptoms of an enlarged prostate, known as benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Essentially all research on saw palmetto extracts for men with mild to moderate BPH symptoms has concluded that this safe herb is more effective than placebo and nearly as effective as commonly prescribed medications.

A 2006 German double-blind one-year study compared a combination of saw palmetto and stinging nettle root (another common treatment for BPH) with Flomax, a popular drug for BPH. The herbs were just as effective as Flomax at reducing symptoms. Neither caused significant side effects, but the herbal combination is much cheaper.

A well-publicized study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that saw palmetto extract was not helpful for men with severe BPH symptoms. Many people used this study to say saw palmetto didn't work at all, failing to note the study was one of the first to look at patients with much more serious symptoms than previous trials. So this study reinforces what already was suspected, that saw palmetto would not work if the condition has progressed too far.

On the other hand, a nearly ignored European study concluded that consistent use of saw palmetto could reduce the need for surgery in men with milder symptoms (World Journal of Urology 2005; 23:253). This two-year study compares favorably with similar data from drug trials.

Saw palmetto remains a safe, effective, highly affordable treatment for men with mild to moderate BPH. Men with serious BPH, including those who don't respond to saw palmetto, should consult their health care provider.

--Eric Yarnell, ND, RH (AHG), assistant professor of botanical medicine, Bastyr University




Not really sure which studies he is citing:

Urologiia. 2006 Mar-Apr;(2):12, 14-9. Links
[Combined extract of Sabal palm and nettle in the treatment of patients with lower urinary tract symptoms in double blind, placebo-controlled trial][Article in Russian]
Lopatkin NA, Sivkov AV, Medvedev AA, Walter K, Schlefke S, Avdeichuk IuI, Golubev GV, Mel'nik KP, Elenberger NA, Engelman U.

A multicenter, prospective clinical trial was performed to study efficacy and tolerance of a compound drug PRO 160/120 in the elderly men with lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) due to benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). A total of 257 patients were randomized into two groups. Group 1 of 129 patients received PRO 160/120; group 2 of 128 patients received placebo. In 2-week induction blind phase of placebo the patients received for 24 weeks 1 capsule of the drug or placebo twice a day in conditions of double blind study. The double blind phase was followed by an open control period for 24 weeks when all the patients received PRO 160/120. Treatment efficacy evaluation was based on I-PSS, quality of life index, urodynamic and ultrasonography evidence. PRO 160/120 was superior to placebo by attenuating LUTS assessed by I-PSS, improved obstructive and irritative symptoms, was effective in patients with moderate and severe symptoms. Tolerance of the plant extract was good.

MMW Fortschr Med. 2005 Oct 6;147 Suppl 3:103-8. Links
[Efficacy of a combined Sabal-urtica preparation in the symptomatic treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia. Results of a placebo-controlled double-blind study][Article in German]
Popa G, Hagele-Kaddour H, Walther C.
Facharzt fur Urologie, Ludwigshafen.

This re-evaluation of a double-blind placebo-controlled therapeutic study of the combined sabal-urtica preparation PRO 160/120 investigates the changes in the irritative symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) under the test substance in comparison with placebo. It was found that, over the study period of 24 weeks, the micturition symptoms frequency and urgency were statistically significantly improved under the well-tolerated PRO 160/120 in comparison with placebo. The patient's quality of life was also significantly better under PRO 160/120 in comparison with placebo. CONCLUSION: The often distressing symptoms of BPH can be effectively ameliorated already after only a few weeks of treatment with the sabal-urtica preparation PRO 160/120. In particular those patients with the stigmatizing symptoms urinary urgency and frequency benefit from such treatment.

World J Urol. 2005 Jun;23(2):139-46. Epub 2005 Jun 1. Links
Long-term efficacy and safety of a combination of sabal and urtica extract for lower urinary tract symptoms--a placebo-controlled, double-blind, multicenter trial.Lopatkin N, Sivkov A, Walther C, Schlafke S, Medvedev A, Avdeichuk J, Golubev G, Melnik K, Elenberger N, Engelmann U.
Institute of Urology, 3rd Parkovaya Street 51, 105425 Moscow, Russia.

The efficacy and tolerability of a fixed combination of 160 mg sabal fruit extract WS 1473 and 120 mg urtica root extract WS 1031 per capsule (PRO 160/120) was investigated in elderly, male patients suffering from lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) caused by benign prostatic hyperplasia in a prospective multicenter trial. A total of 257 patients (129 and 128, respectively) were randomized to treatment with PRO 160/120 or placebo (127 and 126 were evaluable for efficacy). Following a single-blind placebo run-in phase of 2 weeks, the patients received 2 x 1 capsule/day of the study medication under double-blind conditions over a period of 24 weeks. Double-blind treatment was followed by an open control period of 24 weeks during which all patients were administered PRO 160/120. Outcome measures for treatment efficacy included the assessment of the patients' LUTS by means of the I-PSS self-rating questionnaire and a quality of life index as well as uroflow and sonographic parameters. Using the International Prostate Symptom Score (I-PSS), patients treated with PRO 160/120 exhibited a substantially higher total score reduction after 24 weeks of double-blind treatment than patients of the placebo group (6 points vs 4 points; P=0.003, one tailed) with a tendency in the same direction after 16 weeks. This applied to obstructive as well as to irritative symptoms, and to patients with moderate or severe symptoms at baseline. Patients randomized to placebo showed a marked improvement in LUTS (as measured by the I-PSS) after being switched to PRO 160/120 during the control period (P=0.01, one tailed, in comparison to those who had been treated with PRO 160/120 in the double-blind phase). The tolerability of PRO 160/120 was comparable to the placebo. In conclusion, PRO 160/120 was clearly superior to the placebo for the amelioration of LUTS as measured by the I-PSS. PRO 160/120 is advantageous in obstructive and irritative urinary symptoms and in patients with moderate and severe symptoms. The tolerability of the herbal extract was excellent.

Arzneimittelforschung. 2006;56(3):222-9. Links
Efficacy and safety of a combination of sabal and urtica extract in lower urinary tract symptoms. A randomized, double-blind study versus tamsulosin.Engelmann U, Walther C, Bondarenko B, Funk P, Schlafke S.
Department of Urology, University Clinics of Cologne, Cologne, Germany.

The aim of this prospective, randomized, double-blind, double-dummy, multicenter clinical trial was to investigate the efficacy and safety of PRO 160/120 (Prostagutt forte), a fixed combination preparation of 160 mg Sabal fruit extract WS 1473 and 120 mg Urtica root extract WS 1031 per capsule, in comparison to the alpha1-adrenoceptor antagonist tamsulosin (CAS 106463-17-6) in lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) caused by benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). 140 elderly out-patients suffering from LUTS caused by BPH, with an initial score > or = 13 points in the International Prostate Symptom Score (I-PSS), received 2 x 1 capsule/d PRO 160/120 or 1 x 0.4 mg/d tamsulosin and were treated for 60 weeks with interim visits at weeks 8, 16, 24, 36, and 48. The primary outcome measure for efficacy was the change in I-PSS total score, the percentage of patients with an I-PSS score < or = 7 points at endpoint ('responders') was analyzed as well. During 60 weeks of randomized treatment the I-PSS total score was reduced by a median of 9 points in both groups. In total, 32.4 % of the patients in the PRO 160/120 group and 27.9% in the tamsulosin group were responders (test for non-inferiority of PRO 160/120: p = 0.034; non-inferiority margin 10%). Both drugs were well tolerated, with one adverse event in 1514 treatment days for PRO 160/120 and one event in 1164 days for tamsulosin. The study supports non-inferiority of PRO 160/120 in comparison to tamsulosin in the treatment of LUTS caused by BPH.

 

[dockdock]

If you practice "Natural Medicine," the benefit is that you get to feel morally superior to us Establishment allopaths.

Plus, you don't have to do anything really hard like getting into med school, since after all, the MCAT is just a tool of The Man and that's why you only got a 17 on it. Fight the power!

+1 million

Only recently, after moving to the state of Washington, did I encounter naturopathic medicine. In my home state, the government does NOT allow the licensure of N.D.s, thankfully.

I met a girl up here who said she was going to med school next year. I said, "Oh cool, I just graduated med school. Where are you enrolling?" She then told me about the holistic naturopathic medicine school that she got into.

IMHO, naturopathic doctors are quacks who sell snake-oil. But considering just how many idiots there are out there, there will ALWAYS be a huge market for naturalistic medicine.

And I really believe that N.D.s just aren't as intelligent as M.D.s. There, I said it. If we're talking about intellectual capability, I don't think an N.D. could perform at the same level as an M.D. I think if you took an ND student and put him/her into an allopathic med school, that student would fail--not because he just knows that leukemia is best treated with UV radiation, but because he just can't do it.

 

[psipsina]

I'm a student in an allopathic medschool, so obviously I think that western medicine has alot to offer people, or I wouldn't be training to practice it. That being said, I personally had a positive experience seeing an ND. I had symptoms that looked like rheumatoid arthritis, but all that could be found was proof of inflammation not of the diesease process. A rheumatologist that I was seeing used steroids to stop the inflammation and then wanted to put me on a preventative medication. I had horrible reactions to the medicine, to the point that the pain of my hands was preferable, and there were really no other options except trying stronger and stronger drugs with more frequent and more serious side effects. Feeling hopeless I did some reading and found some information about diet and RA type symptoms. At first it was thru alternative medicine literature, but then I found some support for the ideas in allopathic medical journals. I spoke to the MD about it but she dismissed it. I decided to see a ND that a friend saw for a food allergy problem and just see what happened. Everything we discussed had a real scientific basis, he tested my blood for IgG antibodies to common food allergens and found an imbalance of intestinal bacteria and yeast. I altered my diet and took some supplements to rebalance my intestinal flora and then weaned off the allopathic drugs to see what happened. Needless to say I am now off the drugs that made me feel awful all the time and all I have to do is not eat a few foods that I am sensitive to, and I'm fine. If I get some of those foods by mistake I get pains in my hands (and this isn't psychosomatic because often I will have missed an ingredient and then when my hands hurt I go back and check and there it is in the ingredient list). There are so many things that western medicine has to offer, and I would never dream of not seeing allopathic doctors for myself (I continue to see a different rheumatologist to monitor any progression of damage to my joints), but this experience really opened me up to the idea that other forms of medicine may have something to offer people. I'm sure there is a whole lot of hocus-pocus mixed in with the good stuff, but I think it would be worth the effort to run some well designed studies ourselves on the more promising offerings of alternative medicine (i.e. accupuncture) and see if any of it could be valuable to our patients.

 

[dockdock]

I'm a student in an allopathic medschool, so obviously I think that western medicine has alot to offer people, or I wouldn't be training to practice it. That being said, I personally had a positive experience seeing an ND. I had symptoms that looked like rheumatoid arthritis, but all that could be found was proof of inflammation not of the diesease process. A rheumatologist that I was seeing used steroids to stop the inflammation and then wanted to put me on a preventative medication. I had horrible reactions to the medicine, to the point that the pain of my hands was preferable, and there were really no other options except trying stronger and stronger drugs with more frequent and more serious side effects. Feeling hopeless I did some reading and found some information about diet and RA type symptoms. At first it was thru alternative medicine literature, but then I found some support for the ideas in allopathic medical journals. I spoke to the MD about it but she dismissed it. I decided to see a ND that a friend saw for a food allergy problem and just see what happened. Everything we discussed had a real scientific basis, he tested my blood for IgG antibodies to common food allergens and found an imbalance of intestinal bacteria and yeast. I altered my diet and took some supplements to rebalance my intestinal flora and then weaned off the allopathic drugs to see what happened. Needless to say I am now off the drugs that made me feel awful all the time and all I have to do is not eat a few foods that I am sensitive to, and I'm fine. If I get some of those foods by mistake I get pains in my hands (and this isn't psychosomatic because often I will have missed an ingredient and then when my hands hurt I go back and check and there it is in the ingredient list). There are so many things that western medicine has to offer, and I would never dream of not seeing allopathic doctors for myself (I continue to see a different rheumatologist to monitor any progression of damage to my joints), but this experience really opened me up to the idea that other forms of medicine may have something to offer people. I'm sure there is a whole lot of hocus-pocus mixed in with the good stuff, but I think it would be worth the effort to run some well designed studies ourselves on the more promising offerings of alternative medicine (i.e. accupuncture) and see if any of it could be valuable to our patients.

Very well-said.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

And I really believe that N.D.s just aren't as intelligent as M.D.s. There, I said it. If we're talking about intellectual capability, I don't think an N.D. could perform at the same level as an M.D. I think if you took an ND student and put him/her into an allopathic med school, that student would fail--not because he just knows that leukemia is best treated with UV radiation, but because he just can't do it.

Is that your professional opinion, from your experience, or just the answer that "radiates" with you?


You are making the logical fallacy that because the admission requirements are lower for ND school that ND students are not as intelligent. I've had friends go to medical school. I also went to acupuncture school at Bastyr University, so I know many ND students. Some I wouldn't trust with mowing my lawn, but some of them would run circles around anyone.

If you want to attack the modalities they use, then do so. But don't make ad hominem attacks based off of pure conjecture.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

I'm a student in an allopathic medschool, so obviously I think that western medicine has alot to offer people, or I wouldn't be training to practice it. That being said, I personally had a positive experience seeing an ND. I had symptoms that looked like rheumatoid arthritis, but all that could be found was proof of inflammation not of the diesease process. A rheumatologist that I was seeing used steroids to stop the inflammation and then wanted to put me on a preventative medication. I had horrible reactions to the medicine, to the point that the pain of my hands was preferable, and there were really no other options except trying stronger and stronger drugs with more frequent and more serious side effects. Feeling hopeless I did some reading and found some information about diet and RA type symptoms. At first it was thru alternative medicine literature, but then I found some support for the ideas in allopathic medical journals. I spoke to the MD about it but she dismissed it. I decided to see a ND that a friend saw for a food allergy problem and just see what happened. Everything we discussed had a real scientific basis, he tested my blood for IgG antibodies to common food allergens and found an imbalance of intestinal bacteria and yeast. I altered my diet and took some supplements to rebalance my intestinal flora and then weaned off the allopathic drugs to see what happened. Needless to say I am now off the drugs that made me feel awful all the time and all I have to do is not eat a few foods that I am sensitive to, and I'm fine. If I get some of those foods by mistake I get pains in my hands (and this isn't psychosomatic because often I will have missed an ingredient and then when my hands hurt I go back and check and there it is in the ingredient list). There are so many things that western medicine has to offer, and I would never dream of not seeing allopathic doctors for myself (I continue to see a different rheumatologist to monitor any progression of damage to my joints), but this experience really opened me up to the idea that other forms of medicine may have something to offer people. I'm sure there is a whole lot of hocus-pocus mixed in with the good stuff, but I think it would be worth the effort to run some well designed studies ourselves on the more promising offerings of alternative medicine (i.e. accupuncture) and see if any of it could be valuable to our patients.

Taking nothing away from your experience, this only shows that your rheumatologist misdiagnosed the cause of your pain, which was well within the confines of Western medicine. It's not like you were prescribed prayer beads and chakra paste - you were given a reasonable explaination and had reasonable tests done on you. Had this been done by, say, an infectious disease physician, this would be lauded as "thinking outside the box."

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Taking nothing away from your experience, this only shows that your rheumatologist misdiagnosed the cause of your pain, which was well within the confines of Western medicine. It's not like you were prescribed prayer beads and chakra paste - you were given a reasonable explaination and had reasonable tests done on you. Had this been done by, say, an infectious disease physician, this would be lauded as "thinking outside the box."

Obviously food allergies/yeast were also within the confines of naturopathic medicine, while prayer beads and chakra paste were not.

Nice strawman though.

You basically just said that what the ND did was not extreme or bazaar, but was credible enough that a reasonable physician could have figured it out...but they didn't. The whole food allergy / proper nutrition is one of the few tools that NDs have and apparently this ND knew how to use it while the Rheumatologist did not.

This isn't not an example of a ND thinking outside the box...this is their box. It might be small, require fewer admissions requirements to get into school and learn, but it is still their box. It doesn't justify ND's practicing as PCP's, but it does show they do have their niche.

 

[piggie]

general populace like alternative medicine, so it is good

 

[Faebinder]

I'm a student in an allopathic medschool, so obviously I think that western medicine has alot to offer people, or I wouldn't be training to practice it. That being said, I personally had a positive experience seeing an ND. I had symptoms that looked like rheumatoid arthritis, but all that could be found was proof of inflammation not of the diesease process. A rheumatologist that I was seeing used steroids to stop the inflammation and then wanted to put me on a preventative medication. I had horrible reactions to the medicine, to the point that the pain of my hands was preferable, and there were really no other options except trying stronger and stronger drugs with more frequent and more serious side effects. Feeling hopeless I did some reading and found some information about diet and RA type symptoms. At first it was thru alternative medicine literature, but then I found some support for the ideas in allopathic medical journals. I spoke to the MD about it but she dismissed it. I decided to see a ND that a friend saw for a food allergy problem and just see what happened. Everything we discussed had a real scientific basis, he tested my blood for IgG antibodies to common food allergens and found an imbalance of intestinal bacteria and yeast. I altered my diet and took some supplements to rebalance my intestinal flora and then weaned off the allopathic drugs to see what happened. Needless to say I am now off the drugs that made me feel awful all the time and all I have to do is not eat a few foods that I am sensitive to, and I'm fine. If I get some of those foods by mistake I get pains in my hands (and this isn't psychosomatic because often I will have missed an ingredient and then when my hands hurt I go back and check and there it is in the ingredient list). There are so many things that western medicine has to offer, and I would never dream of not seeing allopathic doctors for myself (I continue to see a different rheumatologist to monitor any progression of damage to my joints), but this experience really opened me up to the idea that other forms of medicine may have something to offer people. I'm sure there is a whole lot of hocus-pocus mixed in with the good stuff, but I think it would be worth the effort to run some well designed studies ourselves on the more promising offerings of alternative medicine (i.e. accupuncture) and see if any of it could be valuable to our patients.

Honestly... sounds like you should have seen a Family Med doc or an IM doc and they should have referred you to an Immunologist/Allergist... not a Rheumatologist. You didn't say how you got hte idea to go to a Rheumatologist but I presume someone advised you... Bad advise happens.

Becareful of this in medicine.. Many med students/residents get a half-ass diagnosis because they ask attendings for their opinion outside a regular visit... with half a picture and no labs, the attending is more likely to give a false opinion on whom to see next or what to do next.


As for ND.... there are fellowships after Family Medicine FM for ND. Certainly worth taking if you are into further that part of science. But attending an ND school and practicing as a PCP with an ND.... Lets just say... bad idea.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

As for ND.... there are fellowships after Family Medicine FM for ND.

Oddly enough, nobody at Bastyr seemed to know about that. If you have links to any of the programs, post them...I might have to send out an email.



I'm sure the responses will be great.

 

[deleted87716]

As for ND.... there are fellowships after Family Medicine FM for ND.

If there are, they aren't listed on the AAFP web site ( http://www.aafp.org/fellowships/other.html ). There are a couple for accupuncture and "integrative medicine," but it's important to remember that none of these are accredited by the RRC/ACGME and they do not lead to certification (CAQ) by the American Board of Family Medicine (ABFM).

 

[Faebinder]

If there are, they aren't listed on the AAFP web site ( http://www.aafp.org/fellowships/other.html ). There is are a couple for accupuncture and "integrative medicine," but it's important to remember that none of these are accredited by the RRC/ACGME and they do not lead to certification (CAQ) by the American Board of Family Medicine (ABFM).

Then I stand corrected... cause I ment those two. Either case... the person should have been refered to an Allergist/Immunologist not a Rheumotologist... or at least an Allergist/Immunologist after rheum disease was ruled out.

 

[McDoctor]

I usually stay out of these arguments, but I saw a case yesterday that makes this hard to take. PT with "stage 3" prostate cancer in with alteration in bowel pattern and bright red blood in the stool. I am guessing that this is really T3 or stage C (PT said it is advanced). PT is seeing an MD naturopath since he does not have any insurance. When I asked for the name he showed me his last bill which had the name on it. On this were the following charges:
Milk thistle injection $22
Saw Palmetto injection $25
Naturopathic counselling $115
Some other medication

I wish I was shocked, but I'm really not any more. I did what I could, no charged the visit, got him the lowest price I could on a colonoscopy. I also pointed him at a local cancer center to see if "another opinion" would help. Really doubt this is going to turn out well.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I'm not sure I agree with not charging for the visit. The patient has paid in excess of $150 for dubious products and advice. Why devalue proven mainstream medical advice and treatment by not charging anything?

 

[8744]

(See what you're missing on my blog? -PB)


Complementary and Alternative Medicine

So they asked me a lot, when I was interviewing for medical school, what I thought about complementary and alternative medicine particularly the use of traditional practices as adjuncts to Western Medicine.

I'm all for it. There are a lot of traditional practices I'd like to see become a part modern medicine. Like snake handling. For my money snake handling has everything you'd ever need in an alternative therapy. You've got your snakes representing nature, you've got your mystical religious overtones, and you've got scads of anecdotal evidence and testimonials in prestigious religious journals attesting to it's efficacy.

For those of you who don't know, snake handling has flourished in the folkways of the southern United States for more than a hundred years and is a time-honored method of casting out the demons that cause most sickness, at least those that cannot be ascribed to qi or bad karma. I understand that the NIH offers a fellowship that will equip anyone interested for an expedition to the wilds of Louisiana in which strange and magical land they may sit at the feet of ancient masters of this art and learn the secrets of the serpents.

And don't forget to try Uncle Skeeter's Gator-Taffy if your expedition passes through Lafayette.

I also would like to see more faith healing employed in the modern clinic. I've personally seen the lame walk, the blind see, and the gaseous find relief all from the "laying on of hands" as the technique is described by the learned shaman who practice it. For those of you who are lacking in cultural competence, the faith healer's art is practiced in tents or, more lately, air-conditioned football ashrams where a large crowd can direct their good karma (or "prayerful thoughts" as it is often roughly translated) towards the patient. The patient, under the power of both suggestion and an Ayurvedic being named "Jaysus," has his bad chakra forcefully removed, some would say driven, from his body with a precisely placed blow to the forehead.

The Shaman often yells "Come out!" but this is just showmanship, not unlike the way we yell "stat" in the Emergency Department even though we know that we'll be lucky to get the labs by next Tuesday.

There is some debate whether faith-healing owes it's effectiveness to the so-called "placebo effect" rather than any demonstrable physiological process but the debate is ridiculous and anybody who challenges this ancient traditional practice is a close-minded bigot. It's not like they're sticking needles into people or something lame like that. We're talking bona-fide healing here, often before a television audience of millions. It would be highly unlikely that something like this could be faked in front of so many highly intelligent television viewers.

I have also heard of another traditional mind-body therapy for psychiatric problems, this one practiced in the deep hearts of our ancient cities. Basically, the patient dials a talismanic number, usually preceded by the mystical "900" or any other Number of Power, and ceremoniously asks to speak with a priestess whose name is usually Yolanda or Mistress Debbie. The priestess then diagnosis all kinds of psychiatric and sexual dysfunctions, often times correctly pointing out that somebody close to you is cheating on somebody else close to you and that "he needs to show you love, girlfriend...and you are so not fat...besides, he digs big women."

Sometimes they throw in the winning lottery numbers.

Anyways, with all of my patients, the "P" in SIG E CAPS is "Psychic Hot-line." I understand medicaid will reimburse for it. It's not as if we're asking them to pay for something ridiculous like a visit to the chiropractor.

Finally, for my money, nothing can compare to the healing powers of a good old-fashioned poultice like the kind my grandma used to make out of chicken droppings and mustard greens. It was the sovereign cure for a variety of ailments from lumbago to dropsy. Through years of experimentation, traditional practitioners have developed a wide spectrum of salves and rubs that are pushing the boundaries of our understanding of medicine. Our so-called "evidence based medicine" has nothing to compare to alternating layers of gumbo clay, sassafras bark, and chicken bile covered with brown paper and tied to the offending limb with common twine. It's so good it's almost magical. For fever, pepper is often added as it is a hot spice. For chills, it's not uncommon to add the musk of a nutria as everybody knows this hardy mammal can gnaw it's way through the ice that forms every fifty years or so on the bayou. Beaver semen will do, I suppose, but there is no good evidence to support its substitution and I wouldn't have that kind of quackery in my practice.

Besides, there's no room to stock it as my shelves are crammed with homeopathic remedies

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Many patients overestimate the risks of conventional treatment, just as they overestimate the benefits of alternative treatment. When using both, they typically attribute greater benefit to their unconventional therapies. One of my patients with metastatic prostate CA received a Viadur implant and also took a self-selected regimen of various herbs and supplements. When his CA regressed, he gave full credit to the supplements...going so far as to demand that his urologist remove the Viadur implant, as "it wasn't doing any good." Fortunately, the urologist and I were able to convince him that it might be better to leave it in, "just in case it was helping in some way."

Medicine- Battling the forces of natural selection......

 

[DropkickMurphy]

No, it was just an interesting comment from a guy driving a Toyoto, not squatting in the mud. I don't care to look up any research on the matter. Will you do it for me?

That picture is appropriate for a couple of reasons......

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

(See what you're missing on my blog? -PB)


Complementary and Alternative Medicine

So they asked me a lot, when I was interviewing for medical school, what I thought about complementary and alternative medicine particularly the use of traditional practices as adjuncts to Western Medicine.

I'm all for it. There are a lot of traditional practices I'd like to see become a part modern medicine. Like snake handling. For my money snake handling has everything you'd ever need in an alternative therapy. You've got your snakes representing nature, you've got your mystical religious overtones, and you've got scads of anecdotal evidence and testimonials in prestigious religious journals attesting to it's efficacy.

For those of you who don't know, snake handling has flourished in the folkways of the southern United States for more than a hundred years and is a time-honored method of casting out the demons that cause most sickness, at least those that cannot be ascribed to qi or bad karma. I understand that the NIH offers a fellowship that will equip anyone interested for an expedition to the wilds of Louisiana in which strange and magical land they may sit at the feet of ancient masters of this art and learn the secrets of the serpents.

And don't forget to try Uncle Skeeter's Gator-Taffy if your expedition passes through Lafayette.

I also would like to see more faith healing employed in the modern clinic. I've personally seen the lame walk, the blind see, and the gaseous find relief all from the "laying on of hands" as the technique is described by the learned shaman who practice it. For those of you who are lacking in cultural competence, the faith healer's art is practiced in tents or, more lately, air-conditioned football ashrams where a large crowd can direct their good karma (or "prayerful thoughts" as it is often roughly translated) towards the patient. The patient, under the power of both suggestion and an Ayurvedic being named "Jaysus," has his bad chakra forcefully removed, some would say driven, from his body with a precisely placed blow to the forehead.

The Shaman often yells "Come out!" but this is just showmanship, not unlike the way we yell "stat" in the Emergency Department even though we know that we'll be lucky to get the labs by next Tuesday.

There is some debate whether faith-healing owes it's effectiveness to the so-called "placebo effect" rather than any demonstrable physiological process but the debate is ridiculous and anybody who challenges this ancient traditional practice is a close-minded bigot. It's not like they're sticking needles into people or something lame like that. We're talking bona-fide healing here, often before a television audience of millions. It would be highly unlikely that something like this could be faked in front of so many highly intelligent television viewers.

I have also heard of another traditional mind-body therapy for psychiatric problems, this one practiced in the deep hearts of our ancient cities. Basically, the patient dials a talismanic number, usually preceded by the mystical "900" or any other Number of Power, and ceremoniously asks to speak with a priestess whose name is usually Yolanda or Mistress Debbie. The priestess then diagnosis all kinds of psychiatric and sexual dysfunctions, often times correctly pointing out that somebody close to you is cheating on somebody else close to you and that "he needs to show you love, girlfriend...and you are so not fat...besides, he digs big women."

Sometimes they throw in the winning lottery numbers.

Anyways, with all of my patients, the "P" in SIG E CAPS is "Psychic Hot-line." I understand medicaid will reimburse for it. It's not as if we're asking them to pay for something ridiculous like a visit to the chiropractor.

Finally, for my money, nothing can compare to the healing powers of a good old-fashioned poultice like the kind my grandma used to make out of chicken droppings and mustard greens. It was the sovereign cure for a variety of ailments from lumbago to dropsy. Through years of experimentation, traditional practitioners have developed a wide spectrum of salves and rubs that are pushing the boundaries of our understanding of medicine. Our so-called "evidence based medicine" has nothing to compare to alternating layers of gumbo clay, sassafras bark, and chicken bile covered with brown paper and tied to the offending limb with common twine. It's so good it's almost magical. For fever, pepper is often added as it is a hot spice. For chills, it's not uncommon to add the musk of a nutria as everybody knows this hardy mammal can gnaw it's way through the ice that forms every fifty years or so on the bayou. Beaver semen will do, I suppose, but there is no good evidence to support its substitution and I wouldn't have that kind of quackery in my practice.

Besides, there's no room to stock it as my shelves are crammed with homeopathic remedies

Yawn.

3/10.

Strawmen loose their humor rather quickly and it is usually much funnier to mock actual beliefs using parallels or real examples.


Now here is good example of internet funny:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

Open Letter To Kansas School Board

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

Sincerely Yours,

Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.

P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Ack, don't remind me. I live in Kansas.

We're always one step away from reentering the Dark Ages.

 

[zenman]

Complementary and Alternative Medicine

So they asked me a lot, when I was interviewing for medical school, what I thought about complementary and alternative medicine particularly the use of traditional practices as adjuncts to Western Medicine.

You should have told him that, considering the trends, you'd be an idiot to go the allopathic route unless of course you wanted to just work with the 20% that it's good for.

Then, just for kicks tell him that the reductionist approach really works well if you're an auto mechanic...according to my brother who is one.

Then, take a pic of his expression!