What is your perception of the job market today and future?

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Agreed, ive got an exit strategy all lined up myself. Problem for the new graduates is it's too late. before they know it, they have drowned with no prospects. I'm glad to see current students thinking about what else they can do to enjoy their career and life. Because if thats what you want, it will not happen in ANY area of pharmacy. Sad but true...

What is your exit strategy? Are you talking about as a pharmacist or if being a pharmacist doesn't work out, you got something else already lined up? I was thinking just opening my own pharmacy soon or go into industry or research for more job stability reasons. What else could you do with a pharmd?

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What is your exit strategy? Are you talking about as a pharmacist or if being a pharmacist doesn't work out, you got something else already lined up? I was thinking just opening my own pharmacy soon or go into industry or research for more job stability reasons. What else could you do with a pharmd?
no, I'm leaving the field entirely. It's all jacked up....Anything "retail" "corporate" or "pharmacy" should not be in anybodys job title anymore. Let the millenials sort it out.
 
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no, I'm leaving the field entirely. It's all jacked up....Anything "retail" "corporate" or "pharmacy" should not be in anybodys job title anymore. Let the millenials sort it out.

I see. So what are you going to do? I thought about med school or maybe PA. PA doesn't make as much and med school is too long haha.
 
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke

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( <== Gen-X :) )
 
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“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke

For Reference:

View attachment 241571

( <== Gen-X :) )

I'm not entirely sure what your point is but... will take a wild guess that you want people to do something about what is happening... haha any specific ideas?
 
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no, I'm leaving the field entirely. It's all jacked up....Anything "retail" "corporate" or "pharmacy" should not be in anybodys job title anymore. Let the millenials sort it out.

If people give up on things (Current practices, policies, politics even, current trends etc), then you there's only so much complaining you can do because you didn't try to change it.

Even where I am, not everything is perfect. But I try to work on the things that aren't perfect to make them better. I don't give up on things because I'm in the middle of 2 generations who have completely different approaches. And this isn't me calling out sozetone at all. It's a common attitude held by many in life, in the workplace, everywhere.

Personally, I try not to give up things or people easily. It's just my personality. But part of that comes from life experience. I'm a mom, wife, student, corporate trainer, adjunct faculty, etc.. So as a future pharmacist, I would expect I would still approach people and situations as I do today, just with a lot more training :)

To specifically answer your question - No, I don't have specifics on how I can personally change an industry.. But I do plan on working to change a department, a network, and perhaps eventually a company.. Baby steps :)
 
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If people give up on things (Current practices, policies, politics even, current trends etc), then you there's only so much complaining you can do because you didn't try to change it.

Even where I am, not everything is perfect. But I try to work on the things that aren't perfect to make them better. I don't give up on things because I'm in the middle of 2 generations who have completely different approaches. And this isn't me calling out sozetone at all. It's a common attitude held by many in life, in the workplace, everywhere.

Personally, I try not to give up things or people easily. It's just my personality. But part of that comes from life experience. I'm a mom, wife, student, corporate trainer, adjunct faculty, etc.. So as a future pharmacist, I would expect I would still approach people and situations as I do today, just with a lot more training :)

To specifically answer your question - No, I don't have specifics on how I can personally change an industry.. But I do plan on working to change a department, a network, and perhaps eventually a company.. Baby steps :)

Yes, we need more idealists like you. At least so that we can keep the hope alive haha. I want to believe that I am in a somewhat of influential position right now but still feel like there really isn't much I can do to stop this ship from sinking.

I have ideas that I have presented to my school, my state board, hell to even my colleagues and direct bosses but nope, only answer I got was... it's not realistic. lol

But then I guess it's like everything else in our society, just follow the money. Can't beat'em, join'em. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
 
I always try to compare my opportunity with risk. Getting steady pension while in school plus housing cost (tax free) in a 3 yr accelerated program means debt free.

Well, with a working spouse and degree in hand, even working part time would at worse mean I make as much as I do now ... Also a chance to maintain my hobby investments and hope to gain additional steady income from them.

If all jobs were wiped out I still have enough passive income to cover living expenses...I know I’ll be alright but truth be told, I’m tempted to just simply do a welding side gig and remain content to enjoy things outside of work...In the end, the entitlements I’ve earned for higher education can’t go to my kids or wife so I’ll put it in the scope of work I’ve been doing 60-80 hours a week as a military tech...

I guess what I mean is, I’ll try to make changes for the betterment of my field, but just as much I can see myself not putting up with non-ethical metrics for 30 years knowing I have the opportunity to walk away whenever I want..a blessed and cursed mindset I have right now..
 
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I'm not entirely sure what your point is but... will take a wild guess that you want people to do something about what is happening... haha any specific ideas?

What is your exit strategy? Are you talking about as a pharmacist or if being a pharmacist doesn't work out, you got something else already lined up? I was thinking just opening my own pharmacy soon or go into industry or research for more job stability reasons. What else could you do with a pharmd?

My wifes parents have a restaurant in Europe, They have had it 30 years and it does amazing. They are done though and offered it to us.....its currently being leased on a 6 month contingency type deal....(means either party can give 6 months and back out.) They want us to own and take over the operation. They want us OUT of corporate america..They understand how difficult it is to function and have positive quality of life over here. We are on board, but need to wrap up loose ends here in America. Gonna be a year or so and we will take off.
 
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That portion was related to:



If people give up on things (Current practices, policies, politics even, current trends etc), then you there's only so much complaining you can do because you didn't try to change it.

Even where I am, not everything is perfect. But I try to work on the things that aren't perfect to make them better. I don't give up on things because I'm in the middle of 2 generations who have completely different approaches. And this isn't me calling out sozetone at all. It's a common attitude held by many in life, in the workplace, everywhere.

Personally, I try not to give up things or people easily. It's just my personality. But part of that comes from life experience. I'm a mom, wife, student, corporate trainer, adjunct faculty, etc.. So as a future pharmacist, I would expect I would still approach people and situations as I do today, just with a lot more training :)

To specifically answer your question - No, I don't have specifics on how I can personally change an industry.. But I do plan on working to change a department, a network, and perhaps eventually a company.. Baby steps :)

upload_2018-11-8_21-38-40.png
 
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My wifes parents have a restaurant in Europe, They have had it 30 years and it does amazing. They are done though and offered it to us.....its currently being leased on a 6 month contingency type deal....(means either party can give 6 months and back out.) They want us to own and take over the operation. They want us OUT of corporate america..They understand how difficult it is to function and have positive quality of life over here. We are on board, but need to wrap up loose ends here in America. Gonna be a year or so and we will take off.

I mean this quite sincerely - Good luck to you guys! I hope it is as successful for you as it was for your in-laws!
 
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To specifically answer your question - No, I don't have specifics on how I can personally change an industry.. But I do plan on working to change a department, a network, and perhaps eventually a company.. Baby steps :)
One thing you could do, working for a PBM, is end PBMs. They are worthless middlemen who’s only purpose is to funnel money out of pharmacies and patients for their own profit while providing no real tangible goods or services.
 
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I mean this quite sincerely - Good luck to you guys! I hope it is as successful for you as it was for your in-laws!

You always make it sound like all these current and future pharmacist issues do not apply to you.
When you become a pharmacist I hope it stays that way for you. You sound like real hard working one of a kind lady. No sarcasm.
 
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You always make it sound like all these current and future pharmacist issues do not apply to you.
When you become a pharmacist I hope it stays that way for you. You sound like real hard working one of a kind lady. No sarcasm.

This thread is a trip, filled with fun snarky remarks....look guys at the end of the day, we are all in trouble if we are involved with pharmacy. good point. The prediction is 2023 will be the year when "big changes" will occur. LOL.... its not far off....and if we all go down like the titanic, I will remember the ones who did not think it could happen to them. The others, you are ALL welcome on my lifeboat,........... i just bought one from AMAZON.....lol
 
You always make it sound like all these current and future pharmacist issues do not apply to you.
When you become a pharmacist I hope it stays that way for you. You sound like real hard working one of a kind lady. No sarcasm.

It is not that they don't apply to me per se, but I'm in a specialized area of the company. Because I currently work for the company and will throughout school, it would be an internal transfer position for me.
 
I honestly thought I was a millennial, I think Generation Z sounds better than Postmillennial, though.

That's because people in the generation before mine refer to anyone after GenX as a millennial and group all "young" people together. Time for GenZ to make their own name for themselves :)
 
Don’t blame yah. When the ship is sinking, you gotta figure out if it’s worth plugging up the holes or if it’s time to get on a lifeboat.
no, I'm leaving the field entirely. It's all jacked up....Anything "retail" "corporate" or "pharmacy" should not be in anybodys job title anymore. Let the millenials sort it out.
 
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I wasn't going to originally reply, but here you go....


What is your expected debt upon graduation?
I expect it to be high, which is an even bigger deal for me as a non-traditional student (2x the age of some of my soon to be classmates, married, 2 kids, etc), but I'm still filling out scholarship forms and such - I can get back to you if you want :)

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?
I haven't asked specifically what new pharmacists make in our area, but I would think it will be in the 110-120K range. My expectation is to pay a couple thousand a month towards loans, depending on what my outstanding debt is in order to pay it off as quickly as possible while knowing that my oldest will be starting college the year after I graduate, so.....

120k is the current average salary but what makes you think it will stay that way 4 years from now? As you said, there is saturation and despite the pharmacist surplus, schools continue to graduate new PharmDs in record high numbers . Don't you think salary will drop drastically in the next following years because of this? I mean all recent reports of hours, raises, bonuses, and benefits being cut in the past year indicate a downward trend. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I wouldn't be surprised if within the next decade, it ends up dropping to $50/hr and 32 hrs/wk. I hope you know something I don't know that proves me wrong
 
It is not that they don't apply to me per se, but I'm in a specialized area of the company. Because I currently work for the company and will throughout school, it would be an internal transfer position for me.

What company and what area are you working in? It wouldn't matter where you are, this wave will affect pretty much everyone in the pharmacy field. Even in academia.
 
It is not that they don't apply to me per se, but I'm in a specialized area of the company. Because I currently work for the company and will throughout school, it would be an internal transfer position for me.
Being in call center operations is not considered a “specialized area” of the company but those pharmacists are generalists. The sheer fact that someone with no PBM experience can land one of those roles in your department is already an indication to me that it is unspecialized work that any PharmD can do, similar to a retail pharmacist position. Matter of fact I bet there are hundreds of pharmacists in your PBM doing call center/mail order stuff. If that’s your idea of “job security after graduation” then you’ll find out the hard truth quickly when your company passes you over in favor of bringing in retail pharmacists who are more desperate and would take a lower pay just to escape their jobs.
 
Being in call center operations is not considered a “specialized area” of the company but those pharmacists are generalists. The sheer fact that someone with no PBM experience can land one of those roles in your department is already an indication to me that it is unspecialized work that any PharmD can do, similar to a retail pharmacist position. Matter of fact I bet there are hundreds of pharmacists in your PBM doing call center/mail order stuff. If that’s your idea of “job security after graduation” then you’ll find out the hard truth quickly when your company passes you over in favor of bringing in retail pharmacists who are more desperate and would take a lower pay just to escape their jobs.

Doom n Gloom, you don't fail to disappoint, but I'm not going to post my resume here explaining why I am or am not qualified for something.

To be clear, the PBM I work for is huge. Locations all over the country, mail order services, specialty pharmacies, retail pharmacies, etc...
The department I am in is quite small and dedicated to a specific client in the company, where as yes, there are similar jobs in the company for all the other clients combined where there probably are hundreds. Excluding management rolls, we only have 14 pharmacists in my department, and maybe 50 pharmacists in the building.

That said, I'm not banking on just my degree to have a job. I already have a job here, and they are allowing me to work part-time while in school. When I finish my degree and can return to work full-time, I'll be hitting 20 years with the company regardless of the roll I am in.
 
Doom n Gloom, you don't fail to disappoint, but I'm not going to post my resume here explaining why I am or am not qualified for something.

To be clear, the PBM I work for is huge. Locations all over the country, mail order services, specialty pharmacies, retail pharmacies, etc...
The department I am in is quite small and dedicated to a specific client in the company, where as yes, there are similar jobs in the company for all the other clients combined where there probably are hundreds. Excluding management rolls, we only have 14 pharmacists in my department, and maybe 50 pharmacists in the building.

That said, I'm not banking on just my degree to have a job. I already have a job here, and they are allowing me to work part-time while in school. When I finish my degree and can return to work full-time, I'll be hitting 20 years with the company regardless of the roll I am in.
I’m not discounting your pathway, especially if you’ve worked out a mechanism to stay continuously employed with your company, which I’m assuming is either Caremark or Centene until you secure a pharmacist job after graduation (Well as a disclaimer, transitioning as a tech to pharmacist in a PBM is a very different matter compared to transferring as a tech to a pharmacist in a retail setting). If that’s what you REALLY want, then who am I to judge you for that?

But who knows? Since you’re interested in managed care you’re likely to get involved with your school of pharmacy’s industry or managed care organizations, in which case you will find that the grass is much greener in other parts of PBMs than the one you currently work in and would like to work in one of those departments— but they won’t hire you unless you’ve done a residency or fellowship.

What then? You can’t unsee what you’ve seen at that point, and would most definitely need to uproot yourself if you ended up pursuing a residency/fellowship which means having to give up your role with the company.

Obviously speculating here but that is my prediction on what you will be thinking through as you go through pharmacy school.
 
I’m not discounting your pathway, especially if you’ve worked out a mechanism to stay continuously employed with your company, which I’m assuming is either Caremark or Centene until you secure a pharmacist job after graduation (Well as a disclaimer, transitioning as a tech to pharmacist in a PBM is a very different matter compared to transferring as a tech to a pharmacist in a retail setting). If that’s what you REALLY want, then who am I to judge you for that?

But who knows? Since you’re interested in managed care you’re likely to get involved with your school of pharmacy’s industry or managed care organizations, in which case you will find that the grass is much greener in other parts of PBMs than the one you currently work in and would like to work in one of those departments— but they won’t hire you unless you’ve done a residency or fellowship.

What then? You can’t unsee what you’ve seen at that point, and would most definitely need to uproot yourself if you ended up pursuing a residency/fellowship which means having to give up your role with the company.

Obviously speculating here but that is my prediction on what you will be thinking through as you go through pharmacy school.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Family matters..

I appreciate your candid views, truly. But at 43, I haven't chosen my path with rose-colored glasses on. The ones you should be worried about are the ones I talk out of pursing pharmacy daily - the ones who just see dollar signs. The ones who see a pathway to a degree with a lot of potential money to made, and no plan as to how to actually get to that point, attain a job, or keep one for that matter. The kids who, fresh out of high school or university, still don't know how to set up a 401K or why they should have one.. The ones who don't know how to budget, or manage a bank account, or a credit card (on their own). The ones who put all their effort into As, or 4.0s and no idea how to actually get a job, or keep one. The ones who come out with expectations as to how their life is going to go, but have no idea how to deal with disappointment or rejection. Those are the students you should watch out for.
 
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Sorry for the delay in responding. Family matters..

I appreciate your candid views, truly. But at 43, I haven't chosen my path with rose-colored glasses on. The ones you should be worried about are the ones I talk out of pursing pharmacy daily - the ones who just see dollar signs. The ones who see a pathway to a degree with a lot of potential money to made, and no plan as to how to actually get to that point, attain a job, or keep one for that matter. The kids who, fresh out of high school or university, who still don't know how to set up a 401K or why they should have one.. The ones who don't know how to budget, or manage a bank account, or a credit card (on their own). The ones who put all their effort into As, or 4.0s and no idea how to actually get a job, or keep one. The ones who come out with expectations as to how their life is going to go, but have no idea how to deal with disappointment or rejection. Those are the students you should watch out for.

In other words:

1) What is your perception of the job market

2) What is your perception of investments

3) What is your perception of student loans

4) What is your perception of “Annual Salary” vs “Take Home Salary” vs “Take-Home-Salary-After-Investments-Bills-Student Loans-Mortgage-Auto-Loans-Inflation-Cost-of-Living-Health-Insurance”
 
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In other words:

1) What is your perception of the job market

2) What is your perception of investments

3) What is your perception of student loans

4) What is your perception of “Annual Salary” vs “Take Home Salary” vs “Take-Home-Salary-After-Investments-Bills-Student Loans-Mortgage-Auto-Loans-Inflation-Cost-of-Living-Health-Insurance”

1) Job market sucks
2) Buy CDs, land, house etc that have guaranteed returns
3) Dealing with student loan would depend on how much you have. If you have ALOT 200k> then, just make the smallest payment and invest rest in other things i.e. what i mentioned on #2. Buying a house and letting it sit for 20-25 years will give you more return than what you would owe for your loan... probably. Meanwhile, you had a nice home for 20 years until you retire instead of having spent all your money on loans and no home.
4) Annual salary = $125,000. Take home after taxes = $105,000. Yearly spending = $60,000 (apartment, cars, food, loans etc). Investing and saving the rest. Disposable income in Texas last year was $47,000.
5) If perception doesn't match reality then you dun goofed.
 
Why CDs?

125k gross to 105k take home is impressive, would have thought it would have been more to the 85-90k mark.


1) Job market sucks
2) Buy CDs, land, house etc that have guaranteed returns
3) Dealing with student loan would depend on how much you have. If you have ALOT 200k> then, just make the smallest payment and invest rest in other things i.e. what i mentioned on #2. Buying a house and letting it sit for 20-25 years will give you more return than what you would owe for your loan... probably. Meanwhile, you had a nice home for 20 years until you retire instead of having spent all your money on loans and no home.
4) Annual salary = $125,000. Take home after taxes = $105,000. Yearly spending = $60,000 (apartment, cars, food, loans etc). Investing and saving the rest. Disposable income in Texas last year was $47,000.
5) If perception doesn't match reality then you dun goofed.
 
Why CDs?

125k gross to 105k take home is impressive, would have thought it would have been more to the 85-90k mark.

CD seems like a good idea for the money to just sit and build on interest if its a large sum.

125k gross on pure salary would be about 95k but with bonuses i think I made about 105k.
 
My perception is that pharmacy is currently a dead career path. All of you guys considering going into pharmacy I sincerely want to warn you of the job outlook. I completed a PGY2 pharmacy residency last year and then applied for every pharmacy position I could find in the lower 48 states for 12 months. Not one hospital or retail pharmacy has contacted me for an interview. I have a bachelor of science undergrad degree with a 3.7 GPA. My pharmacy school GPA was 4.0. I was a member of two Greek clubs while in pharmacy school. I had two years of paid pharmacy tech experience before pharmacy school, and three years of paid retail pharmacy student intern experience. I also have a PGY2 residency and that is is no insurance that you will get a job. It may have been many years ago, but that is not true any more. I have networked extensively and still no luck. I also know people that recently graduated class of 2018 and still have not managed to attain any kind of job in pharmacy.
 
I feel like I should bite since I'm a recent graduate I guess.

1) What is your current perception of the job market?

We're in a lot of trouble. I got really lucky in a major metro area, but it's not guaranteed full time. Half of my graduating class didn't have jobs lined up after school. Most job offers are going to be 48hr part time, and they will start you at $52 or less per hour.

How much is this as a salary exactly? It's 65k per year. My first real person job after school (undergrad) I made 55k per year, and I didn't have 140k worth of student loans to pay off. Luckily, I was in a financial situation where I didn't have to take out as many loans as most of my peers (average student loans between my friends is about 200k - 300k).

2) Perception of investments?

401k is basically free money, and I have work on the side as well which I'd prefer to not discuss.

3)Student loans

Why do these loans have a worse interest rate than some of my investment loans? That doesn't make sense to me. I mentioned I'm sitting at 140k it's actually closer to 120k, but that's because I made sound financial decisions. Tuition increased by 33% while I was in school. Educational quality did not improve. Most students weren't in the financial position I'm in before school, and are stuck with 250k worth of debt. For reference on monthly payments that's approximately 2.4-2.5k monthly payments to our friends at Navient.

4) I'd rather not say. For me it's not bad, for others I know it's pretty bad.

5) The professors lie, the people in power in this profession let us all down. I'm looking at you ACPE and the boards of pharmacy. It's only a matter of time before this house of cards collapses. It will likely be a combination of those forces and PBMs like the one Saisri works for that does us in.
 
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My perception is that pharmacy is currently a dead career path. All of you guys considering going into pharmacy I sincerely want to warn you of the job outlook. I completed a PGY2 pharmacy residency last year and then applied for every pharmacy position I could find in the lower 48 states for 12 months. Not one hospital or retail pharmacy has contacted me for an interview. I have a bachelor of science undergrad degree with a 3.7 GPA. My pharmacy school GPA was 4.0. I was a member of two Greek clubs while in pharmacy school. I had two years of paid pharmacy tech experience before pharmacy school, and three years of paid retail pharmacy student intern experience. I also have a PGY2 residency and that is is no insurance that you will get a job. It may have been many years ago, but that is not true any more. I have networked extensively and still no luck. I also know people that recently graduated class of 2018 and still have not managed to attain any kind of job in pharmacy.

I feel like I should bite since I'm a recent graduate I guess.

1) What is your current perception of the job market?

We're in a lot of trouble. I got really lucky in a major metro area, but it's not guaranteed full time. Half of my graduating class didn't have jobs lined up after school. Most job offers are going to be 48hr part time, and they will start you at $52 or less per hour.

How much is this as a salary exactly? It's 65k per year. My first real person job after school (undergrad) I made 55k per year, and I didn't have 140k worth of student loans to pay off. Luckily, I was in a financial situation where I didn't have to take out as many loans as most of my peers (average student loans between my friends is about 200k - 300k).

2) Perception of investments?

401k is basically free money, and I have work on the side as well which I'd prefer to not discuss.

3)Student loans

Why do these loans have a worse interest rate than some of my investment loans? That doesn't make sense to me. I mentioned I'm sitting at 140k it's actually closer to 120k, but that's because I made sound financial decisions. Tuition increased by 33% while I was in school. Educational quality did not improve. Most students weren't in the financial position I'm in before school, and are stuck with 250k worth of debt. For reference on monthly payments that's approximately 2.4-2.5k monthly payments to our friends at Navient.

4) I'd rather not say. For me it's not bad, for others I know it's pretty bad.

5) The professors lie, the people in power in this profession let us all down. I'm looking at you ACPE and the boards of pharmacy. It's only a matter of time before this house of cards collapses. It will likely be a combination of those forces and PBMs like the one Saisri works for that does us in.

What part of the country are you guys in?
 
I feel like I should bite since I'm a recent graduate I guess.

1) What is your current perception of the job market?

We're in a lot of trouble. I got really lucky in a major metro area, but it's not guaranteed full time. Half of my graduating class didn't have jobs lined up after school. Most job offers are going to be 48hr part time, and they will start you at $52 or less per hour.

How much is this as a salary exactly? It's 65k per year. My first real person job after school (undergrad) I made 55k per year, and I didn't have 140k worth of student loans to pay off. Luckily, I was in a financial situation where I didn't have to take out as many loans as most of my peers (average student loans between my friends is about 200k - 300k).

2) Perception of investments?

401k is basically free money, and I have work on the side as well which I'd prefer to not discuss.

3)Student loans

Why do these loans have a worse interest rate than some of my investment loans? That doesn't make sense to me. I mentioned I'm sitting at 140k it's actually closer to 120k, but that's because I made sound financial decisions. Tuition increased by 33% while I was in school. Educational quality did not improve. Most students weren't in the financial position I'm in before school, and are stuck with 250k worth of debt. For reference on monthly payments that's approximately 2.4-2.5k monthly payments to our friends at Navient.

4) I'd rather not say. For me it's not bad, for others I know it's pretty bad.

5) The professors lie, the people in power in this profession let us all down. I'm looking at you ACPE and the boards of pharmacy. It's only a matter of time before this house of cards collapses. It will likely be a combination of those forces and PBMs like the one Saisri works for that does us in.
48 hours biweekly? 65k salary??? Holy **** it's already worse than I predicted it would be in a few years. When taking loan payments into account, you're essentially making less than US median income.
 
I always try to compare my opportunity with risk. Getting steady pension while in school plus housing cost (tax free) in a 3 yr accelerated program means debt free.

Well, with a working spouse and degree in hand, even working part time would at worse mean I make as much as I do now ... Also a chance to maintain my hobby investments and hope to gain additional steady income from them.

If all jobs were wiped out I still have enough passive income to cover living expenses...I know I’ll be alright but truth be told, I’m tempted to just simply do a welding side gig and remain content to enjoy things outside of work...In the end, the entitlements I’ve earned for higher education can’t go to my kids or wife so I’ll put it in the scope of work I’ve been doing 60-80 hours a week as a military tech...

I guess what I mean is, I’ll try to make changes for the betterment of my field, but just as much I can see myself not putting up with non-ethical metrics for 30 years knowing I have the opportunity to walk away whenever I want..a blessed and cursed mindset I have right now..
If the economy collapsed tomorrow I would still have a place to live. That gives me piece of mind.
 
The overall lack of responses from pre-pharms is very telling.
Are the pre pharmacy people even seeing this thread? The pharmacy school specific and PCAT threads are being bumped all the time so obviously they're here. Or do they really have no idea or expectations of how many hours they're going to get after graduating, how much debt they're going to be in and how much money they're going to make? Did they choose pharmacy just because mommy told them it was a good job?
 
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Some people to have experience pain before they learn anything.
 
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Are the pre pharmacy people even seeing this thread? The pharmacy school specific and PCAT threads are being bumped all the time so obviously they're here. Or do they really have no idea or expectations of how many hours they're going to get after graduating, how much debt they're going to be in and how much money they're going to make? Did they choose pharmacy just because mommy told them it was a good job?

Possible thoughts:

1. Students that are in college and beyond are adults and can make their own decisions (if they are at least the age of 18 or higher). I think the schools may not be allowing the admitted students to read anything "negative" towards or about pharmacy as a profession; this "no-negativity" mentality is used to promote "professionalism" among students and faith in the profession; "clever girl" to quote Jurassic Park. The students may not even think that what we are saying is true and that we must be "trolling" because they are too ignorant, obstinate, or "hopeful" to know otherwise. Most students may "think they know" exactly what they are doing and still disregard the numbers. Those that know what we do may not be allowed to post on social media at all.

2. The schools are focused on an "all-positivity, no negativity" mentality that the students are forced to buy into or else they do not achieve the PharmD or have a future, which is a falsehood considering the posts we have here and the LinkedIn profiles found. Phi Lambda Sigma members that were inducted from our class had these traits, even though most of these individuals were wrong. Each school's motivational tactics are different, but these tactics keep the student body compliant to the school's policy; in other words, to keep order without causing problems. What I am wondering is if the satellite campuses with each pharmacy school follow the same mentality as their mother hub.

3. If you look on YouTube, some individuals post that they refuse to read the statistics by their own choice; I call that "The Shining (Star) Mentality" after the movie. Maybe these students are the Jack Torrence and think that joblessness and failure may never happen to them because they do very well at "everything," or so they perceive. The lack of online posts and exposure to them allow admitted students to be comfortable with uncertainty. The reason could be due to faith in some higher power; yes, there are YouTube channels from pharmacy students that promote faith over reason, but neglect one fact: "Faith without works is dead," which is directly from the Book of James.

4. Schools are targeting a younger demographic (namely high-school students who generally know very little about pharmacy). I am against inducting students from high school directly into pharmacy, regardless of how smart they are, for revenue sake as these students know very little about the profession. (One could argue the same about Medical School, but that is not the topic of discussion here.). Within the context of pharmacy, Alex Barker and I agree on something.

4a. The strategy to target younger students seems reasonable (to the schools): the schools will induct students that will promote the profession regardless of what they hear from real pharmacists and real graduates. The successful PharmD graduates will be brought in by the schools to discuss their "experiences," while everyone else who knows the truth is not even discussed. The younger you recruit them, the more entrepreneurial spirit they have, which could promote the bias of "ageism" in the workplace. If you increase the number of positive students, then you increase the school's reputation and hence the reputation of the pharmacy profession. Once the information is brought to the forefront, it is not difficult to understand the correlation.

5. Restricting students from looking at such information also allows students to experience that "pain" for themselves, but it does not correct any issues for those who already know the truth. I call it the "modified placebo effect" when the actual treatment is logic. It make me feel these students are part of a long case-control study where the outcome assessed is the correlation between positivity and job outcomes. Once that correlation is confirmed, then schools can justify they were right and we as experienced pharmacists and PharmD graduates are not. The very idea takes experience and reason out of the equation. We all know from any statistics class one fact: correlation does not mean causation. More positive people does not guarantee jobs; it just makes jobs more likely in the future. In other words, the odds ratio increases but the absolute risk remains. If you increase both the odds ratio and decrease the confidence interval with while increasing the sample size of positive people, it makes the data more statistically significant. The schools are banking, literally, on positivity to recruit more students and retain their reputation and are trying to generate enough data to support their assertions.

6. Schools are using strategy to remove expectation from the equation and focus on things that are "better." Furthermore, students are choosing pharmacy because they want to (reason and logic aside). It feels more like a video game: Tales of Pharmeria more than it does anything else; believe drives thinking and thinking drives progress (even if it is in the wrong direction).

7. The students are tired of "perceived" negativity posted on forums and neglect the evidence based on perception alone, which is more dangerous than actually reading it (Thank you, Sasiri). What I call: neglect of facts based on "alert fatigue through repetitive notifications" and the "I don't care, I want this" mentality. Student mentalities have a tendency to drive the overall social progress of the student body.

Conclusion: This lack-of-posting by pre-pharmers and pharmacy students is more telling than even @stoichiometrist thinks. Some individuals also prefer to maintain their anonymity and to protect themselves from scrutiny by their own "colleagues," who may be on the Boards of Pharmacy. People are actually reading our posts and choose not to comment. The students are allowing themselves to experience that pain, whether conscious and aware or not.

Positivity seems to be the the targeted analgesia for extreme perceived pain.
 
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I'm already all over this thread, but for a why people don't reply? To be honest, it may be just the sheer amount of perceived negative posts on the topic. "I'm not going to read another one. This is what I want to do!"

Not saying it is right or wrong. My perception is that knowing what other people think about the profession you're going into is important. Some of these other people could be your co-workers some day. It's a matter of being very much aware of what you're heading towards. You're not going to always agree with other people and their points of view, but being able to navigate personalities and opinions and passionate viewpoints is a life skill too few people have anymore.
 
I'm already all over this thread, but for a why people don't reply? To be honest, it may be just the sheer amount of perceived negative posts on the topic. "I'm not going to read another one. This is what I want to do!"

Not saying it is right or wrong. My perception is that knowing what other people think about the profession you're going into is important. Some of these other people could be your co-workers some day. It's a matter of being very much aware of what you're heading towards. You're not going to always agree with other people and their points of view, but being able to navigate personalities and opinions and passionate viewpoints is a life skill too few people have anymore.
This thread wasn't meant to have any sort of negativity though. Personally I'm genuinely curious what pre pharms's salary expectations are and more specifically how low they are willing to go because that may ultimately determine all of our salaries. It's no secret that wages have dropped by $5-10/hr in several places last year. What will it be like in 4 years? Will I still be around making $120k a year with guaranteed 40h while working alongside a new grad only making $70k a year?
 
Oh, I understand.. I was just giving my opinion :) That's why I said "perceived" negative posts though - They aren't meant to be, but in huge numbers they come across that way.
 
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Possible thoughts:

1. Students that are in college and beyond are adults and can make their own decisions (if they are at least the age of 18 or higher). I think the schools may not be allowing the admitted students to read anything "negative" towards or about pharmacy as a profession; this "no-negativity" mentality is used to promote "professionalism" among students and faith in the profession; "clever girl" to quote Jurassic Park. The students may not even think that what we are saying is true and that we must be "trolling" because they are too ignorant, obstinate, or "hopeful" to know otherwise. Most students may "think they know" exactly what they are doing and still disregard the numbers. Those that know what we do may not be allowed to post on social media at all.

2. The schools are focused on an "all-positivity, no negativity" mentality that the students are forced to buy into or else they do not achieve the PharmD or have a future, which is a falsehood considering the posts we have here and the LinkedIn profiles found. Phi Lambda Sigma members that were inducted from our class had these traits, even though most of these individuals were wrong. Each school's motivational tactics are different, but these tactics keep the student body compliant to the school's policy; in other words, to keep order without causing problems. What I am wondering is if the satellite campuses with each pharmacy school follow the same mentality as their mother hub.

3. If you look on YouTube, some individuals post that they refuse to read the statistics by their own choice; I call that "The Shining (Star) Mentality" after the movie. Maybe these students are the Jack Torrence and think that joblessness and failure may never happen to them because they do very well at "everything," or so they perceive. The lack of online posts and exposure to them allow admitted students to be comfortable with uncertainty. The reason could be due to faith in some higher power; yes, there are YouTube channels from graduating pharmacists that promote faith over reason, but neglect one fact: "Faith without works is dead," which is directly from the Book of James.

4. Schools are targeting a younger demographic (namely high-school students who generally know very little about pharmacy). I am against inducting students from high school directly into pharmacy, regardless of how smart they are, for revenue sake as these students know very little about the profession. (One could argue the same about Medical School, but that is not the topic of discussion here.). Within the context of pharmacy, Alex Barker and I agree on something.

4a. The strategy to target younger students seems reasonable (to the schools): the schools will induct students that will promote the profession regardless of what they hear from real pharmacists and real graduates. The successful PharmD graduates will be brought in by the schools to discuss their "experiences," while everyone else who knows the truth is not even discussed. The younger you recruit them, the more entrepreneurial spirit they have, which could promote the bias of "ageism" in the workplace. If you increase the number of positive students, then you increase the school's reputation and hence the reputation of the pharmacy profession. Once the information is brought to the forefront, it is not difficult to understand the correlation.

5. Restricting students from looking at such information also allows students to experience that "pain" for themselves, but it does not correct any issues for those who already know the truth. I call it the "modified placebo effect" when the actual treatment is logic. It make me feel these students are part of a long case-control study where the outcome assessed is the correlation between positivity and job outcomes. Once that correlation is confirmed, then schools can justify they were right and we as experienced pharmacists and PharmD graduates are not. The very idea takes experience and reason out of the equation. We all know from any statistics class one fact: correlation does not mean causation. More positive people does not guarantee jobs; it just makes jobs more likely in the future. In other words, the odds ratio increases but the absolute risk remains. If you increase both the odds ratio and decrease the confidence interval with while increasing the sample size of positive people, it makes the data more statistically significant. The schools are banking, literally, on positivity to recruit more students and retain their reputation and are trying to generate enough data to support their assertions.

6. Schools are using strategy to remove expectation from the equation and focus on things that are "better." Furthermore, students are choosing pharmacy because they want to (reason and logic aside). It feels more like a video game: Tales of Pharmeria more than it does anything else; believe drives thinking and thinking drives progress (even if it is in the wrong direction).

7. The students are tired of "perceived" negativity posted on forums and neglect the evidence based on perception alone, which is more dangerous than actually reading it (Thank you, Sasiri). What I call: neglect of facts based on "alert fatigue through repetitive notifications" and the "I don't care, I want this" mentality. Student mentalities have a tendency to drive the overall social progress of the student body.

Conclusion: This lack-of-posting by pre-pharmers and pharmacy students is more telling than even @stoichiometrist thinks. Some individuals also prefer to maintain their anonymity and to protect themselves from scrutiny by their own "colleagues," who may be on the Boards of Pharmacy. People are actually reading our posts and choose not to comment. The students are allowing themselves to experience that pain, whether conscious and aware or not.

Positivity seems to be the the targeted analgesia for extreme perceived pain.

There is a saying: “You can’t wake up someone who is pretending to sleep”.

We are asking people to deny their academic or professional existence. As result, they either deny or thinking they will be the lucky one.

Even if they recognize the points we are trying to make, unless they have already made the decision to get out of pharmacy; their peers, instructors and themselves will keep up the positive reinforcement for the current path until they graduate and become unemployed.

It is just way too hard for them to admit...... and burst their bubble.

Of course, 1 in 5 still could get a decent job.

The other recourse is to withhold donations back to the school.
 
Agreed, ive got an exit strategy all lined up myself. Problem for the new graduates is it's too late. before they know it, they have drowned with no prospects. I'm glad to see current students thinking about what else they can do to enjoy their career and life. Because if thats what you want, it will not happen in ANY area of pharmacy. Sad but true...[/QU

Sozetone do you suggest that NOBODY attends pharmacy school at all? I mean somebody has to go right?
 
Nobody should go to pharmacy school for the next 10 years. That way the market will truly equilibrate and all the currently unemployed or underemployed pharmacists will get jobs. Then again, I’m not a fan of giving away jobs to foreign pharmacists so I’m happy with the way things are currently. At some point when there are 100x less jobs than there are demand, then only the best will succeed. Survival of the fittest.
 
Nobody should go to pharmacy school for the next 10 years. That way the market will truly equilibrate and all the currently unemployed or underemployed pharmacists will get jobs. Then again, I’m not a fan of giving away jobs to foreign pharmacists so I’m happy with the way things are currently. At some point when there are 100x less jobs than there are demand, then only the best will succeed. Survival of the fittest.

If NOBODY went for 10 years there wouldn't be any schools left! Somebody has to go. However, I do agree that there are too many schools and not enough jobs from what I see, however Alaska does not seem too bad for 2 or three years. I'm with it!
 
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If NOBODY went for 10 years there wouldn't be any schools left! Somebody has to go. However, I do agree that there are too many schools and not enough jobs from what I see, however Alaska does not seem too bad for 2 or three years. I'm with it!

Your comment assumes you will be able to move out of Alaska within those 2-3 years, find a second job, or find someone else to replace you. Good luck persuading one of your residency-trained colleagues to move out there. You may also be the only pharmacist for a very wide area.

Keep all of these statements in mind while you make your career plans.
 
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Your comment assumes you will be able to move out of Alaska within those 2-3 years, find a second job, or find someone else to replace you. Good luck persuading one of your residency-trained colleagues to move out there. You may also be the only pharmacist for a very wide area.

Keep all of these statements in mind while you make your career plans.

Alaska is one of my priorities (thankfully I’m one of the rare crazies to wish to go there). Kodiak bear and lake trout is what I want lol but true, you’d have to stay there long-term and not just 2-3 years thinking you’ll easily get out
 
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