This is insane. Thanks for posting this. I hope you don't mind if I quote this when the next "What are some of the top DO schools?" thread is posted and everyone starts answering with the typical "they're all the same" or "whichever one accepts you" responses.
What is your school's start to finish success rate?
- Thread starter Staphylococcus Aureus
- Start date
This is insane. Thanks for posting this. I hope you don't mind if I quote this when the next "What are some of the top DO schools?" thread is posted and everyone starts answering with the typical "they're all the same" or "whichever one accepts you" responses.
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That's good to know, since I'll be going to your school!
Side note, I wonder if the quality of a DO school can be judged by how they treat their strongest students or how they treat their weakest students (strong link vs weak link)?
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From a consumer perspective, what I would like to see is:
- # Matriculated
- Four Year Results
- # Graduated
- # Matched AOA
- # Matched ACGME
- # Placed
- Five Year Results
- # Graduated
- # Matched AOA
- # Matched ACGME
- # Placed
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There's not real way of finding out the former. The latter you can find from school-specific threads, maybe, and also by looking at attrition rates.That's good to know, since I'll be going to your school!
Side note, I wonder if the quality of a DO school can be judged by how they treat their strongest students or how they treat their weakest students (strong link vs weak link)?
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I think out of those 115 only 96 made it to 4th year. So it would be 55/96. But still attrition rate is pretty high.
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That's why I'm saying schools should be measured on their ability to match and graduate students in four years (something premeds just assume happens unless a student has serious personal issues). That's not asking much, doesn't take into account match rank or initial desired specialty. The amount of students who choose to leave, get kicked out, have to soap, or don't match in 4 years should be no higher than say 8% TOTAL. Honestly 48% could even be lower than St. Georges
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This is St Georges placement for 2018
SGU - Residency Appointment Directory
24 people secured categorical ACGME surgery spot this year.
Meanwhile, the entire population of DO ACGMe surgery applicants placed 83 people into ACGME categorical surgery.
SGU - Residency Appointment Directory
24 people secured categorical ACGME surgery spot this year.
Meanwhile, the entire population of DO ACGMe surgery applicants placed 83 people into ACGME categorical surgery.
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A
AnatomyGrey12
You are the king of posting info that is incredibly misleading and/or inconsequential. That is only the number of people that matched through the NRMP match. The majority of initially accredited programs still filled through the AOA match so the number of DOs that matched ACGME accredited programs is higher than 83.
When you look at actual percentages of people going into specialties (even the surgical subs) from almost any given DO school and compare it to SGU then the DO school will almost always have higher percentages across the board.
William Carey’s Caribbean like issues should not be extrapolated to the established DO schools. The new schools are a different story.
D
deleted480308
sgu also has an enrollment of 5600........and only put 860 in residency last year.
do that math
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I thought it was like ~1600 between January and August entering classes. But still that's 860 out of 1600. PRETTY bad.
Edit: That's not even counting the people that had to take a year off before they match.
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I hate DO schools as much as the next guy, but I still cant quite figure out why someone gets off on commenting garbage like this when it has no effect on their life or pursuits. It would be like med students going to the pre med forum and trashing people who go to no-name undergrads... sad really.
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These are very misleading comparisons. There are residency programs that seem to specifically cater to SGU (especially a few sites in NYC) and the other "Big 4" schools. In addition, there are PDs who refuse to take DOs but will take IMGs.
I hate DO schools as much as the next guy, but I still cant quite figure out why someone gets off on commenting garbage like this when it has no effect on their life or pursuits. It would be like med students going to the pre med forum and trashing people who go to no-name undergrads... sad really.
There are SDNers who seem to have made it their life's mission to take a dump on DO students and grads whenever possible.
William Carey’s Caribbean like issues should not be extrapolated to the established DO schools. The new schools are a different story.
Indeed. WCU is a clear outlier among all the COMs in these regards.
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I absolutey agree.
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how TF is this acceptable?
It's appalling.
I graduated from Touro CA some years back and I'm so embarrassed by these stats.
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I can't find anything published that might suggests cocas minimum pass/grade rate. The closest you get is standard 6.5.1 but it doesn't actually specific what's deemed acceptable only that all COMs are required to submit this and many other statistics each year.
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I am surprised you got a hold of these. Did they have to put a strategic business plan somewhere?
People are acting shocked, but honestly its what I expected. I would bet many DO schools look like this, and quite frankly Touro is not the worst offender. 92-95% of people do finish their degree who go there, so attrition is still better than 8% most years. They are not allowed to recharge you for classes you already passed either (federal loan requirements), so the debt burden is not significantly increased.
So while graduating in 6 years sucks, it sure beats not graduating.
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I can just hear my Dean reading this and crowing about our rates! He grinds his teeth audibly at AACOM meetings with whenever Mike Clearfield speaks.
Y'all ought to attend AACOM meetings if you can. The Dean dynamics are, well, interesting. That's all I can say.
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While it's not a year's worth of tuition I'd say it certainly is a financial hit. Bruh, that interest stings lol
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I think you're underestimating how many people that is. I thought my school was garbage tier because we lost quite a few and it's not even close to 25% attrition. That's 1 in 4 students not making it to graduation.
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It's not 25% attrition. They don't get dismissed. They just repeat one or 2 years, and that's why at 6 years they have 95% success rate.
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Attrition is not equal to 'on time' graduation rate. Attrition is people who quit or are kicked out. If 95% of a class eventually graduates you still only have a 5% attrition rate, even if only 76% graduated 'on time' and the other 19% took two more years to graduate. That 19% still made it, they weren't kicked out.
People seem to get the two confused often, but that is what leads to outrage over over what is a fairly standard 4, 5, and 6 year completion rate IMO. If you were looking at a school like WCU then you would probably see a program with actual double digit attrition rate.
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I sense you will do well in the future.
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Largely semantics. I know they eventually graduate. 75% on-time graduation rate is unacceptable.
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I'm sure there's a good reason why 19% out of the 95% did not make it to graduation day in 4 years.
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I agree that its not ideal, but their 5 year average was over 80%, and that is fairly standard. The average MD school only has an 82.5% 'on-time' graduation rate. So its fairly normal.
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf
You guys need to realize that 20% of a class getting 'delayed' is pretty normal. 20% getting kicked out is not.
Edit: If you want to argue that MD's take more research years, I will absolutely agree, but 14% of MD's are not all doing research years. In fact its about 3.3% (2698/80,920).
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This includes students who did MD/PhD, took time off for research to match derm, etc. So 82.5% is far from what is actually going on.
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Exactly, of the people not doing PhD, how many of the MD students are doing research years for more competitive specialties? I can guarantee that in comparison, not many of that 25% is taking research years on the DO side
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Addressed this in an edit. Only 3.3% were doing research vs 6.6% on LOA, that would mean about 4-5% were held back due to academics. The 4 and 5 year rates do not include MD-PhD btw. Those were MD only.
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When we faculty use the term attrition for medical students, we use it in the sense of students who are delayed in graduation time, not those who are lost permanently.
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When we faculty use the term attrition for medical students, we use it in the sense of students who are delayed in graduation time, not those who are lost permanently.
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I understand that it is colloquially used that way, just like the words 'match/placement' are used interchangeably, but that is not what it means (at least in an organizational sense, you have to actually lose the person). And pretty much every DO schools would be straight up lying if they said that 95% of their students 'graduate on time.' It is beneficial for admin to muck up the definition, so they can say with a straight face that the attrition rate is less than 8% when they know 20% of the average DO's do not graduate on time. And basically none of them take research years.
Not accusing you or your school of anything specific (I don't know), but misusing/fudging the term has allowed for the widespread misinformation about DO schools. If DO schools were more honest we would admit that about 7-10% more students get delayed in a average DO school vs an average MD. This is, I think, perfectly reasonable, considering the difference in admittance stats.
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What will happen to WCU or any school with Caribbean-like problems? There were concerns raised that WCU was already struggling to fill its first year class seats and slamming them with a heavy probation will hurt them more. But is that really a drawback? Poor success rates are a far more serious issue than the ability to fill seats and it seems probation if not a harsher punishment is warranted.
At the very least, will the dean and other important faculty get sacked for their school's poor performance?
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COCA will probably put the school on probation for X time, saying "clean up this mess".
Would the Dean get fired? Only if sanctions are applied, I surmise. This is really new territory for the COMs.
In my opinion, the school needs a good slap in the face and to get hurt. If, for example, they tighten their admissions standards, their class size will indeed go down. But this will force the university to put up or shut up in improving the school. Creating new residency sites would be a start, and, as they're making noise about doing right now, tightening up performance policies. I would only hope that they jettison weak students early on, rather than letting them go four years and not have a job, which cruelty.
Here's the checklist that COCA utilizes to see how (well) the COMs function:
Documents to review for verifying compliance, Standard 1.3.1:
Results of student successes, i.e., COMLEX-USA Level 1 ____
and Level 2 passage rates
Licensure and geographic area of practice; Completion rates/ ____
Which is the responsibility of: CEO, Chief Academic Officer/Dean, Faculty, and Planning Committees
Accreditation Services for Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine
So a low pass rate combined with a low completion rate is going to get on COCA's radar. I can only hope that WCU students give COCA an earful on their next site visit, if not already.
According to this doc from 2007, it seems that a probation period is two years.
Accreditation with Probation
Accreditation with probation is granted when the COM is found to exhibit serious weaknesses in meeting the accreditation standards such that the quality of the total program is in jeopardy. The COCA will specify the accreditation standard(s) not being met, clearly note deficiencies, and specify the procedures for monitoring compliance. Accreditation with probation status is public and notice will be provided to all interested parties. The COCA and COM will publicly describe the COM's status as "accreditation with probation." The COCA will establish a timetable for remediation. The COCA may require the use of a consultant, submission of written reports and/or documents, and other actions or activities as determined by the COCA. The COCA may elect to extend this period for the following good causes: ¾ Change in Chief Executive officer; ¾ Change in Chief Academic Officer; Accreditation of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine: COM Accreditation Standards and Procedures Page 36 Approved: December 10, 2006 Effective: July 1 2007 ¾ Demonstration of progress on a plan whose fulfillment would require an extension in time; or ¾ Other substantive financial or administrative changes, which affect the operation of the COM. The COCA will determine the extension period, but the extension must not exceed six (6) months in total duration. Failure to comply with outstanding requirements during the six (6) month period, including any extension for good cause, will result in denial of accreditation. At any time during the period a COM has accreditation with probation status, the COCA may require that COM to show cause why accreditation should not be denied. The COCA will state, in writing, its reasons for taking this action. The COM will have thirty (30) days in which to respond. The COCA will take action upon the COM's response within thirty (30) days after its receipt.
Denial of Accreditation Denial of accreditation may occur at any time that the COM is found to exhibit such weaknesses in meeting the accreditation standards that the quality of the total program is unacceptable. Denial of accreditation will usually be preceded either by accreditation with warning or accreditation with probation. Prior to denial of accreditation, the COCA will require that COM to show cause why accreditation should not be withdrawn. The COCA will state, in writing, its reasons for taking this action. The reasons will include citation of all areas of non-compliance with the standards or procedures for accreditation. The COM will have thirty (30) days in which to respond. The COCA will take action upon the COM's response within thirty (30) days after its receipt. Denial of accreditation is an adverse action.
Withdrawal from Accreditation
At any time, an accredited COM, or new COM, retains the right to withdraw from the accreditation process. Such requests may be made only in writing by the Chief Executive Officer of the COM. Withdrawal is an action initiated and taken by the COM. The COCA will notify the USDE of a withdrawal from the accreditation process within thirty (30) days of the receipt of the withdrawal.
http://www.nj.gov/highereducation/d...pathic_med_school_accreditation_standards.pdf
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I can't speak for other schools, but there is no way that my school has a 20% delay in graduation rate.
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Nope. The dean is part of COCA, that's how he got the job. The previous dean was "retiring" due to heart problems, COCA was rattling their sabers about pulling accreditation, so they offered him the job to turn the school around.
There's been a revolving door of faculty since we stepped onto campus 4 years ago, allegedly the quality of instruction is going up. There's been a complete turnover in oversight of the clinical years, new Deans there as well.
I believe part of the problem comes from the President of WCU overall and the sway that he has over the COM- he's the "official" reason for the strictness of the attendance policy.
My school doesn’t either. Probably not as prevalent as everyone is suggesting on here.
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So MD schools average 17.5% of their classes getting delayed/expelled, and you are claiming that most DO don't? Man the denial is hard up in here. In fact, we could use the AOA data to prove the 6-year graduation rate(4-years in new COM's case), but I am not doing it today.
If you all would rather believe that everything is just fine, then do it. I am sure the flying spaghetti monster will approve of your rationale, he will probably also guarantee your school has a 95% 4 year graduation rate too.
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Do you have a link to that data? Many MD schools have people take a year off for research, which is not a luxury the COMs have. Just a thought. I'll be looking at my own school's delay rate late ron today. It's an easy thing to dig up for me.
EDIT: one more very unpredictable thing that adds to delay rates: women have babies!
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SDN expresses constant frustration towards the DO governing body. I have seen the misuse of statistics on the interview trail and its honestly very concerning. I have always said that DO programs need to publish specific data and accurate data demonstrating its success. Data that reflects the program success such as the above poster noted.
Currently, there is the idea that all DO schools are essentially the same in terms of opportunity. As a result, top DO applicants apply among the diversity of DO schools and often end up matriculating a little at every school. This raises the avg. statistics of the school's matriculates, increases the # matched into competitive specialties, blah blah...
Now imagine a world with well established rankings of DO schools and the disappearance of the DO slogan " all schools are essentially the same". Can you imagine loosing the diversity of strong applicants. These lower tier schools would have such poor matriculates.You better believe that if there were rankings, top DO applicants would be fighting to get into these schools.
Imagine if we placed the top 1/4 of applicants at every DO school into tier 1, the bottom 1/4 of applicants into tier 3 and the rest of applicants in tier 2. Schools that received a majority of applicants from tier 3 would have such ridiculous attrition rates, poor matriculate statistics. It would have results far worse than WCU. And now with all the new schools opening, we can be sure that more tier 3 applicants will be matriculating. However, in a world with DO rankings, tier 3 applicants would flock to the same institutions. The schools would most likely start looking like Caribbean schools. COCA doesn't want that.They want the increase of tier 3 applicants, due to the increase of new COMs, to be spread out among all DO schools. As a result, all COMs performance decrease only slightly, rather than specific school performing horrendously.
Might be a conspiracy theory.
If publishing such data among others became the standard, I believe that obvious tiers would naturally develop over the years. I'm actually starting to think that COCA does not want this to happen.
Currently, there is the idea that all DO schools are essentially the same in terms of opportunity. As a result, top DO applicants apply among the diversity of DO schools and often end up matriculating a little at every school. This raises the avg. statistics of the school's matriculates, increases the # matched into competitive specialties, blah blah...
Now imagine a world with well established rankings of DO schools and the disappearance of the DO slogan " all schools are essentially the same". Can you imagine loosing the diversity of strong applicants. These lower tier schools would have such poor matriculates.You better believe that if there were rankings, top DO applicants would be fighting to get into these schools.
Imagine if we placed the top 1/4 of applicants at every DO school into tier 1, the bottom 1/4 of applicants into tier 3 and the rest of applicants in tier 2. Schools that received a majority of applicants from tier 3 would have such ridiculous attrition rates, poor matriculate statistics. It would have results far worse than WCU. And now with all the new schools opening, we can be sure that more tier 3 applicants will be matriculating. However, in a world with DO rankings, tier 3 applicants would flock to the same institutions. The schools would most likely start looking like Caribbean schools. COCA doesn't want that.They want the increase of tier 3 applicants, due to the increase of new COMs, to be spread out among all DO schools. As a result, all COMs performance decrease only slightly, rather than specific school performing horrendously.
Might be a conspiracy theory.
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I am looking through some AOA data now.
According to this
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-COM-AMProfile.pdf?sfvrsn=be5e6197_24
6184 student matriculated to all DO schools.
According to this data
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...s-survey-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=1e712b97_8
5984 students were expected to graduate.
This accounts for graduation rate of 96.7%. However, this is NOT placement rate.
According to this
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...ements-in-2017-matches.pdf?sfvrsn=cb502d97_10
5898 students obtained placement.
5898 / 6184 is 95.37% of all entering DO students who were able to obtain residency appointment.
The sky is not falling yet.
According to this
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-COM-AMProfile.pdf?sfvrsn=be5e6197_24
6184 student matriculated to all DO schools.
According to this data
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...s-survey-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=1e712b97_8
5984 students were expected to graduate.
This accounts for graduation rate of 96.7%. However, this is NOT placement rate.
According to this
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...ements-in-2017-matches.pdf?sfvrsn=cb502d97_10
5898 students obtained placement.
5898 / 6184 is 95.37% of all entering DO students who were able to obtain residency appointment.
The sky is not falling yet.
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OK, the subject of the thread really intrigued me, and for the past four classes, the % for students graduating in four years were:
class of %graduating
2018 98
2017 86
2016 88
2015 87
I was surprised the we had dipped below 90% for such a long time, but inside those numbers are a lot of stories.
We lose about 2-4 people/year (from a class of ~100). These are dismissed in first semester of first year, OR are forced to repeat the year...it's VERY rare we lose someone after OMSI. Usually that's due to repeated COMLEX failures, mental health issues, or a loss of interest in Medicine.
Of the people who have to repeat OMSI, I'd say half have mental health issues, and half have physical health issues.
Another 4% delay due to some fellowships (teaching or research).
And at least two women in each class have babies.
So what about the rest of those people?????
And ~half repeated a year after COMLEX. Haven't a clue as to what their stories are, but I suspect life issues as the #1 culprit.
Mixed into some of these stories are physical illnesses. One had a long undiagnosed GI issue, another had a hematologic issue, and another had a rheumatologic issue.
So, once again, all good students are the same. All weak students are very different.
Oh, I also told my Dean this AM about those horrendous numbers at Touro-CA. He just smirked. He rarely does that!
That's all I can do...my brain's fried now.
class of %graduating
2018 98
2017 86
2016 88
2015 87
I was surprised the we had dipped below 90% for such a long time, but inside those numbers are a lot of stories.
We lose about 2-4 people/year (from a class of ~100). These are dismissed in first semester of first year, OR are forced to repeat the year...it's VERY rare we lose someone after OMSI. Usually that's due to repeated COMLEX failures, mental health issues, or a loss of interest in Medicine.
Of the people who have to repeat OMSI, I'd say half have mental health issues, and half have physical health issues.
Another 4% delay due to some fellowships (teaching or research).
And at least two women in each class have babies.
So what about the rest of those people?????
And ~half repeated a year after COMLEX. Haven't a clue as to what their stories are, but I suspect life issues as the #1 culprit.
Mixed into some of these stories are physical illnesses. One had a long undiagnosed GI issue, another had a hematologic issue, and another had a rheumatologic issue.
So, once again, all good students are the same. All weak students are very different.
Oh, I also told my Dean this AM about those horrendous numbers at Touro-CA. He just smirked. He rarely does that!
That's all I can do...my brain's fried now.
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As stated early WCU has a few insiders as Deans so COCA is unlikely to force any change. If they somehow were able to force some kind of change the school would close and become an NP or a PA program. When COCA comes on a visit to the school students can not talk freely to them. The deans make it well known that they are best friends with whomever COCA sends and the school has made it obvious they will punish “trouble makers”. So no one talks. Unless COCA comes up with protection for students that speak out no one will.
The only way to get Carey to improve is to let the applicants know what is going on at the school, which is the current reason why Carey is having a hard time filling the class. If COCA made it easier for students to transfer to other DO schools from schools in this situation would also be a better punishment and corrective tool.
The only way to get Carey to improve is to let the applicants know what is going on at the school, which is the current reason why Carey is having a hard time filling the class. If COCA made it easier for students to transfer to other DO schools from schools in this situation would also be a better punishment and corrective tool.
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And 98.6% if you use the graduate figure as the denominator--not bad. Id say merger will dip us down to ~85-90% at worst--but that depends on a lot of factors.
For sure drop-out rates will increase with all the new crap schools opening.
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posted it earlier and addressed the research years: What is your school's start to finish success rate?
95% graduated and placed, but 95% did not graduate on time. You have basically calculated the 6 year placement rate for all DOs. I'm surprised you made this mistake, you missed an obvious chance to make fun of DOs.
Its funny, when I make the argument that finishing at all and placing is pretty decent people always say its terrible if its anything other than matching. Apparently recognizing the average 4 year completion rate of Touro, along with WCU's terrible rate has successfully shifted the goals downward were people now are just happy that most DO's eventually graduate and place.
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