What is your school's start to finish success rate?

[acapnial]

I do not find it very acceptable that 5% of students are leaving/failing out/whatever from an American medical school. People use the excuse of "personal reasons" all the time, by the way, for anything. I personally know of several who failed, too.

According to that sheet someone posted up there (https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf) 3.4% of MD students never graduate. Is this number acceptable?

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[Ho0v-man]

I've heard similar things from an individual who was up there in AOA administration. If you think about it, there's a pretty simple and logical path that this could take:

Once the merger is complete, there is no reason to have 2 separate sets of board exams. The ACGME could easily require that anyone seeking residency will be required to take USMLE which would make COMLEX completely meaningless other than to appease COCA and the AOA. However, if that happened it's likely DO schools would simply shift their focus to teaching to the USMLE instead of COMLEX, especially if USMLE pass rates were too low. I think that would eventually lead to the phasing out of COMLEX altogether. ACGME could also require applicants to take NBME shelf exams instead of NBOME shelfs, at which point there is no longer any purpose for the NBOME to exist as a licensing entity at all other than just to make money. Once all of the licensing requirements and pre-requisites between DOs and MDs for residency are the same, then the ACGME/LCME will hold all the power and could make a legitimate attempt to strong-arm the AOA into an amalgamation of the two degrees.

The biggest challenge of this would be wrestling the financial aspect away from COCA and fighting the political backlash, which if new DO schools keep opening and it leads to increased attrition, lower match rates, and lower board scores and pass rates, they'll have a pretty strong argument for a hostile takeover. To tie this back in to the actual topic of the thread, if DO schools start heading in the direction of Carib schools and have terrible 4 year graduation rates, it's just going to be more ammo for those who want integration of the two degrees. It will also likely hurt the newer schools far more than the older ones which have the experience and resources available to manage a change like that.

The other reason I think this could feasibly happen is that, imo, the AOA does not have the same level of support from the younger generation of DOs than it does from the old guard. Most of the younger generation either doesn't believe in OMM or is at least skeptical of many of the techniques. Even more of us just can't stand the AOA and many of the hoops that we have to jump through and still have a bias held against us. So when the time comes and that AOA starts looking for help from their own, I don't think they're going to get the level of support that they'll need.

Of course, this is all complete speculation and there's a chance that none of this will happen. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the DO degree and schools were absorbed into the MD world, as there are too many other issues facing physicians today and on the horizon for us to be fighting with each other. So the sooner this all gets figured out the better imo, but I'm also sure this would not be a smooth transition and that there will be a fight as there has been in the past with issues like the merger.

I’m all for the comlex and nbome exams dying. However, as much as I would love for DO governing bodies to do something positive for a change, I don’t want to be an MD. I’m busting my butt for this degree and will be proud to have DO next to my name one day. I don’t even like OMM tbh. Can’t give a good reason for not wanting someone to stamp a form and make me an MD but I can tell you that once I get my DO they’ll have to pry out of my cold dead fingers.

I’m proud of my degree, even if COCA/AOA’s intention is to drag it through the mud.

On another note, after reading about WCU in this thread, I like my school A LOT more. That’s terrible...

 

[PorkChopsOG]

I do not find it very acceptable that 5% of students are leaving/failing out/whatever from an American medical school. People use the excuse of "personal reasons" all the time, by the way, for anything. I personally know of several who failed, too.

A lot of MD schools don't even have any spots for transfer even if they allow transfer because they work hard to keep their students.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that you're trying to place the blame of people failing a class on the administration rather than the individuals. While what happened in neuro was a **** show, only 19 people out of four hundred something failed the first exam. Do you suggest schools just pass everyone and leave it to boards? If you are failing a class more often than not there is an identifiable reason for it: it's better to fail a class and realize you need to make a change than it would be to waltz your way through pre-clinicals and then fail boards.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I do not find it very acceptable that 5% of students are leaving/failing out/whatever from an American medical school. People use the excuse of "personal reasons" all the time, by the way, for anything. I personally know of several who failed, too.

A lot of MD schools don't even have any spots for transfer even if they allow transfer because they work hard to keep their students.

You sound ridiculous. The 4 year graduation rate for MD schools is in the mid 80s%. Even the 8 year graduation rate for MD/PhD students is only 70 percent. I go to your school and personally know that the majority have left for personal or health reasons. I know two who left even though they weren’t failing they just didn’t want to pursue medicine anymore. Also if those that failed they still are offered a chance to remediate. I know 2 people who were offered to remediate first year and personally chose not too. That does not reflect badly on the school. You realize people’s lives are complex right??

 

[sab3156]

You sound ridiculous. The 4 year graduation rate for MD schools is in the mid 80s%. Even the 8 year graduation rate for MD/PhD students is only 70 percent. I go to your school and personally know that the majority have left for personal or health reasons. I know two who left even though they weren’t failing they just didn’t want to pursue medicine anymore. Also if those that failed they still are offered a chance to remediate. I know 2 people who were offered to remediate first year and personally chose not too. That does not reflect badly on the school. You realize people’s lives are complex right??

Man, you are really terrible with your numbers game. In another thread you claimed that COMLEX and Step 1 percentiles are essentially equivalent. Now you're talking about the percentage of MD students graduating in 4 years, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I know you love KCU, but this has nothing to do with.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that you're trying to place the blame of people failing a class on the administration rather than the individuals. While what happened in neuro was a **** show, only 19 people out of four hundred something failed the first exam. Do you suggest schools just pass everyone and leave it to boards? If you are failing a class more often than not there is an identifiable reason for it: it's better to fail a class and realize you need to make a change than it would be to waltz your way through pre-clinicals and then fail boards.

In any case, do you have any data on the graduation rates in the past few years? Maybe it's not available, but would be nice to see. Also do you know if the students offered remediation are removed off the rank list as of now or are they still included in this number until start of, say, 2nd year?

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Man, you are really terrible with your numbers game. In another thread you claimed that COMLEX and Step 1 percentiles are essentially equivalent. Now you're talking about the percentage of MD students graduating in 4 years, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I know you love KCU, but this has nothing to do with.



In any case, do you have any data on the graduation rates in the past few years? Maybe it's not available, but would be nice to see.

It literally has to do with what you’re talking about explicitly. You said it’s not acceptable for 5% of people to be failing out of an American med school (this includes MD schools). When the average American medical school only graduates about 85% of any given class in 4 years. Also, a kcu 4th posted a few weeks ago saying about 240/270 graduated in 4 years, which is about 88-89%. Not sure about other years but you have to just realize that doesn’t mean the school just kicks out 12% of students like a carrib school, which is what you’re making it sound like.

 

[PorkChopsOG]

Man, you are really terrible with your numbers game. In another thread you claimed that COMLEX and Step 1 percentiles are essentially equivalent. Now you're talking about the percentage of MD students graduating in 4 years, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I know you love KCU, but this has nothing to do with.



In any case, do you have any data on the graduation rates in the past few years? Maybe it's not available, but would be nice to see. Also do you know if the students offered remediation are removed off the rank list as of now or are they still included in this number until start of, say, 2nd year?

Graduation rates are probably not published, and come down to people in each class comparing their white coat ceremony list with the graduation list (if anyone still has them). I think they're removed off of our list and added to the class below ours, as they have to redo their white coat ceremony as well.

 

[sab3156]

It literally has to do with what you’re talking about explicitly. You said it’s not acceptable for 5% of people to be failing out of an American med school (this includes MD schools). When the average American medical school only graduates about 85% of any given class in 4 years. Also, a kcu 4th posted a few weeks ago saying about 240/270 graduated in 4 years, which is about 88-89%. Not sure about other years but you have to just realize that doesn’t mean the school just kicks out 12% of students like a carrib school, which is what you’re making it sound like.

4 year graduation rate is not the same thing as "people who didn't fail out of school". This also takes into account people who took a year off for completing another degree (say, MBA program or something - these data are probably in an AAMC report somewhere). So it's really not that simple.

 

[PorkChopsOG]

I should clarify - failed out of first year and told to remediate. I know plenty of people who have failed several classes first year. A lot of people are being told to remediate, and I know several. I don't even know many people in our class, so it's striking to me. This shouldn't ever happen in a US medical school. The curriculum at KCU is a mess, and it's a bit too much of a burden for a number of people who would probably not have failed classes in a medical school with a more organized curriculum (I know this for a fact because I have actually taken medical school courses at a competitive MD school, and the difference is night and day). I would say that if someone fails neuroscience by one percentage point (I know a couple of these people) because the first exam was written by the Joplin professors who taught completely different material and emphasized completely different things than the KC professor... then yes, it's absolutely 100% on the school.

Also can you clarify, are you saying you know people who failed only 2 classes and are being encouraged to remediate the entire 1st year, or did they fail 3 classes and are being given the option to remediate or withdraw? Or are you saying you know people who failed 2 classes and are retaking them in the summer (that type of remediation)?

 

[sab3156]

Also can you clarify, are you saying you know people who failed only 2 classes and are being encouraged to remediate the entire 1st year, or did they fail 3 classes and are being given the option to remediate or withdraw? Or are you saying you know people who failed 2 classes and are retaking them in the summer (that type of remediation)?

Not sure how many classes exactly they failed, but the scenarios I know of:

1) Have failed at least 2 and are being told to remediate the first year.
2) Failed out due to failing too many courses in remediation year (not sure what the number of courses for this to happen is).
3) I do know of someone doing summer remediation due to failing a couple of classes in his remediation year, which is probably a unique situation.

 

[PorkChopsOG]

Not sure how many classes exactly they failed, but the scenarios I know of:

1) Have failed at least 2 and are being told to remediate the first year.
2) Failed out due to failing too many courses in remediation year (not sure what the number of courses for this to happen is).
3) I do know of someone doing summer remediation due to failing a couple of classes in his remediation year, which is probably a unique situation.

Interesting. I've always wondered what happens if you fail more classes while you're remediating. I've heard 3 classes is the hard limit for withdraw/remediate entirety of first year. I wonder if the people with at least 2 really failed 3 because it'd be weird to offer 2 summer remediation exams but still push you for a 1st year remediation

 

[Dr.Bruh]

4 year graduation rate is not the same thing as "people who didn't fail out of school". This also takes into account people who took a year off for completing another degree (say, MBA program or something - these data are probably in an AAMC report somewhere). So it's really not that simple.

That’s true but the AAMC also includes 6 year graduation rates which would cover anybody who took, say, a research year or a year for a dual degree and the 6 year graduation rate for MD schools is around 92%. meaning it’s likeky that the vast majority of the 8% who didn’t graduate in 6 years failed our or left for personal reasons.

 

[12jas]

Would be nice if all schools published something like this. RVU rate last year was 83% nothing to be excited about. Also nice to see board averages published including accurate step 1 averages since RVU requires all students take step 1.

 

[theoriginalsandman]

Would be nice if all schools published something like this. RVU rate last year was 83% nothing to be excited about. Also nice to see board averages published including accurate step 1 averages since RVU requires all students take step 1.

It would be great to see this level of transparency across all programs. Med school is a huge financial and time investment and it would be nice to have an honest picture of a program before a student commits. I would have loved to see this about my program back in the day.

 

[Cath Up]

Would be nice if all schools published something like this. RVU rate last year was 83% nothing to be excited about. Also nice to see board averages published including accurate step 1 averages since RVU requires all students take step 1.

Wow. Great to see that level of transparency.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Oh? I thought that school was considered a great DO school...

Sent from my Pixel XL using SDN mobile

There are a few who are actually doing combined programs there, and a few who have taken a year off for research. Maybe it's their class in particular, but my class has about a ~5-10 person difference

 

[NVO]

Interesting. I've always wondered what happens if you fail more classes while you're remediating. I've heard 3 classes is the hard limit for withdraw/remediate entirety of first year. I wonder if the people with at least 2 really failed 3 because it'd be weird to offer 2 summer remediation exams but still push you for a 1st year remediation

KCU allows you to fail 2 classes first year and take it over the summer. 3 fails = remediate 1st year. Those that failed less but had to remediate probably chose to do so. And you can still fail classes 2nd year and retake it (it just cuts into boards prep).

The school's academic policy is extremely lax lol. oh and apparently the re-take exam is the exact same exam (identical), and you're allowed to review your old tests beforehand. So in my opinion its very hard to fail out of KCU for strictly academic reasons.

 

[Dwan]

That’s true but the AAMC also includes 6 year graduation rates which would cover anybody who took, say, a research year or a year for a dual degree and the 6 year graduation rate for MD schools is around 92%. meaning it’s likeky that the vast majority of the 8% who didn’t graduate in 6 years failed our or left for personal reasons.

That doesn't include the PhDs. Completion rate overall is 97% per AAMC. It's not surprising that 8 yr grad rate among Md/Phds is 70% either, many people take longer than 4 years to complete the PhD.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This shouldn't ever happen in a US medical school

I do not find it very acceptable that 5% of students are leaving/failing out/whatever from an American medical school. People use the excuse of "personal reasons" all the time, by the way, for anything. I personally know of several who failed, too.

A lot of MD schools don't even have any spots for transfer even if they allow transfer because they work hard to keep their students.

You realize that is common at most medical schools right? It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest when DO schools give chances to people who honestly probably aren’t going to be able to hack it academically. Unlike the Carib these students get all sorts of help and aid to try and get them through, but some of these students simply aren’t going to cut it. DO schools aren’t looking to go failing students out, they just accept more individuals that aren’t good academically.

 

[Chibucks15]

You realize that is common at most medical schools right? It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest when DO schools give chances to people who honestly probably aren’t going to be able to hack it academically. Unlike the Carib these students get all sorts of help and aid to try and get them through, but some of these students simply aren’t going to cut it. DO schools aren’t looking to go failing students out, they just accept more individuals that aren’t good academically.

**The world of medical education according to sab

 

[sab3156]

You realize that is common at most medical schools right? It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest when DO schools give chances to people who honestly probably aren’t going to be able to hack it academically. Unlike the Carib these students get all sorts of help and aid to try and get them through, but some of these students simply aren’t going to cut it. DO schools aren’t looking to go failing students out, they just accept more individuals that aren’t good academically.

~97% is full completion per AAMC (MD schools). We are talking about more people leaving than that at my school in the first year alone it seems, so it's not the common scenario. Though, I have to agree that DO schools are accepting people that just shouldn't be in medical school in the first place.


Does anyone know if there is any AACOM report about this? I haven't been able to find one. I looked at the RVU report but it only seemed to be talking about 4 year completion rate (for example, showing an 83% graduation rate for class of 2017). Would be nice to find a summary of full completion the way AAMC publishes it.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

~97% is full completion per AAMC (MD schools). We are talking about more people leaving than that at my school in the first year alone it seems, so it's not the common scenario. Though, I have to agree that DO schools are accepting people that just shouldn't be in medical school in the first place.


Does anyone know if there is any AACOM report about this? I haven't been able to find one. I looked at the RVU report but it only seemed to be talking about 4 year completion rate (for example, showing an 83% graduation rate for class of 2017). Would be nice to find a summary of full completion the way AAMC publishes it.

There's a thread going on about that right now . we haven't been able to find anything accept evidence from students