What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

[superdoc2.0]

They're not doctors.... End thread/

I am sure that will convince your future patients why they should not follow the advice of a naturopathic doctor. I don't just want to tell patients I have M.D. after my name so I am right.

I have really appreciated peoples links to helpful sites that show the flaws of the profession.

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[Baller MD]

I am sure that will convince your future patients why they should not follow the advice of a naturopathic doctor. I don't just want to tell patients I have M.D. after my name so I am right.

I have really appreciated peoples links to helpful sites that show the flaws of the profession.

We are evidenced based. They are not.

 

[Psai]

We are evidenced based. They are not.

I am very evidenced based

 

[cbrons]

Alternative medicine just means there's no actual proof that it works. If there was, it would just be called medicine.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

How about moving the discussion of the thread to Chiropractors now?

Are chiropractors just as dubious as naturopathic doctors?

Let's just broaden it up, shall we? If you're not using evidence-based medicine, you're not doing medicine as we know it. If you don't claim to be doing medicine, fine. If you do, you're a quack.

Calling themselves "chiropractic doctors" blurs that line for me.

Corrected...

I would put D.O. in front of US M.D. because they are both Physician and Chiropractor i.e. killing 2 birds with one stone.

By far the best treatise on quackery and chiropractic in general was written by the great HL Mencken: http://www.chirobase.org/12Hx/mencken.html

Interestingly that was written in 1924 just as DO schools began incorporating regular physiology/anatomy/pathology into their curriculum (hilariously, Mencken puts AT Still and Palmer into the same category. If you read this, you will long for the day when newspaper men wrote like this:

Both doctrines were launched upon the world by an old quack named Andrew T. Still, the father of osteopathy. For years the osteopaths merchanted them, and made money at the trade. But as they grew opulent they grew ambitious, i.e., they began to study anatomy and physiology. The result was a gradual abandonment of Papa Still's ideas. The high-toned osteopath of today is a sort of eclectic. He tries anything that promises to work, from tonsillectomy to the x-rays. With four years' training behind him, he probably knows more anatomy than the average graduate of the Johns Hopkins Medical School, or at all events, more osteology. Thus enlightened, he seldom has much to say about pinched nerves in the back.

But as he abandoned the Still revelation it was seized by the chiropractors, led by another quack, one Palmer. This Palmer grabbed the pinched nerve nonsense and began teaching it to ambitious farm-hands and out-at-elbow Baptist preachers in a few easy lessons. Today the backwoods swarm with chiropractors, and in most States they have been able to exert enough pressure on the rural politicians to get themselves licensed. [It is not altogether a matter of pressure. Large numbers of rustic legislators are themselves believers in chiropractic. So are many members of Congress.] Any lout with strong hands and arms is perfectly equipped to become a chiropractor. No education beyond the elements is necessary. The takings are often high, and so the profession has attracted thousands of recruits -- retired baseball players, work-weary plumbers, truck-drivers, longshoremen, bogus dentists, dubious preachers, cashiered school superintendents. Now and then a quack of some other school -- say homeopathy -- plunges into it. Hundreds of promising students come from the intellectual ranks of hospital orderlies.

 

[NontradCA]

By far the best treatise on quackery and chiropractic in general was written by the great HL Mencken: http://www.chirobase.org/12Hx/mencken.html

Interestingly that was written in 1924 just as DO schools began incorporating regular physiology/anatomy/pathology into their curriculum (hilariously, Mencken puts AT Still and Palmer into the same category. If you read this, you will long for the day when newspaper men wrote like this:

Check signature.

 

[touchpause13]

Snake oil

 

[NontradCA]

OMT

Ftfy.

 

[Grrath]

Naturopathy doesn't work so what do naturopathic doctors even accomplish? Also, what the hell are they even learning in school?

 

[touchpause13]

Ftfy.

 

[Winged Scapula]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-and-science/

Here is another pretty good link about naturopathy if anybody is trying to learn more like me.

Dr. Gorski was one of my attendings in fellowship; a very bright man who writes extensively on such topics. I often refer patients to one of his blogs when they have questions about alternative treatments.

Thanks for the helpful responses. I kind of always thought of naturopathic medicine as just using herbs and stuff cause some people don't want to use nasty "chemicals" to treat themselves. I really didn't realize how much crazy thinking there is out there.

It can be much more dangerous than that. Because I live in a community with a NMD school and a lot of "woo", we often see patients present with chronic fungating malignancies who have been "treated" by naturopaths. Its criminal.

 

[PL198]

View attachment 190440

you're getting increasingly more chill over time. don't let him say that to you, lay into it a little

 

[PL198]

Dr. Gorski was one of my attendings in fellowship; a very bright man who writes extensively on such topics. I often refer patients to one of his blogs when they have questions about alternative treatments.



It can be much more dangerous than that. Because I live in a community with a NMD school and a lot of "woo", we often see patients present with chronic fungating malignancies who have been "treated" by naturopaths. Its criminal.

oh you mean rubbing a few tree roots on their skin didn't fix their kidney disease?

 

[Stedari]

Naturopaths > EMTs > NPs > MD/DO

In terms of confidence in their knowledge. And everyone keeps telling me to fake it til' I make it...

 

[touchpause13]

you're getting increasingly more chill over time. don't let him say that to you, lay into it a little

No I just talk to my friends differently than I talk to you

 

[Doctor Bob]

I could tell you that parachutes have never been proven to be effective, but that's only because no one would do a study where half the participants were thrown out at 10,000 feet with only a placebo backpack.

I have some patients that I would like to enroll in this trial...

 

[loris]

In case anyone is interested, here’s the curriculum for Bastyr University’s ND program.
The total number of credits for a few of the subjects:

• Physical Medicine: 21.5
• Homeopathy: 8
• Advanced Business Practices: 7.5
• Botanical Medicine Lab and Botanical Formulation Lab: 6
• Medical Procedures: 4
• Clinical Pharmacology: 2.5
• Critical Evaluation of the Literature: 2
• Fundamentals of Research Design: 2

After graduating with that curriculum, here is their advertised scope of practice and the “Health Conditions We Treat.” Of course, before graduating, “Naturopathic medicine students offer compassionate, trauma-informed care to homeless teenagers” and “As with Bastyr's other off-site community care clinics, the 45th Street Clinic lets students train with a variety of patient types. Other community clinics focus on homeless adults, HIV/AIDS patients, low-income patients, multiethnic groups, children and seniors.”

On an encouraging side note, it may have taken them a little bit longer than other schools, but Bastyr University seems to have finally figured out what a microscope can be used for and has updated their site’s photos accordingly. They also seem to have rethought how much PPE is actually required when handling commercially prepared and sealed tissue slides; however, if they really want to boldly announce to the world, “We can science. We can science REAL hard,” then the next time that they update their website’s pictures, they should probably unwrap their microscopes’ power cords when they’re in use.

June 23rd, 2014 vs. March 22nd, 2015

Still, it’s progress.
At least they aren't trying to boast about the quality of their clinical training by featuring pictures of students learning to auscultate heart sounds through clothes.

(Sry. I'm not making fun of your cousin OP; I'm just being obnoxiously critical of Bastyr & natropathy.)

 

[PL198]

I'd probably bang my head against a wall repeatedly if I had to use a microscope regularly.

 

[MedWonk]

In case anyone is interested, here’s the curriculum for Bastyr University’s ND program.
The total number of credits for a few of the subjects:

• Physical Medicine: 21.5
• Homeopathy: 8
• Advanced Business Practices: 7.5
• Botanical Medicine Lab and Botanical Formulation Lab: 6
• Medical Procedures: 4
• Clinical Pharmacology: 2.5
• Critical Evaluation of the Literature: 2
• Fundamentals of Research Design: 2

After graduating with that curriculum, here is their advertised scope of practice and the “Health Conditions We Treat.” Of course, before graduating, “Naturopathic medicine students offer compassionate, trauma-informed care to homeless teenagers” and “As with Bastyr's other off-site community care clinics, the 45th Street Clinic lets students train with a variety of patient types. Other community clinics focus on homeless adults, HIV/AIDS patients, low-income patients, multiethnic groups, children and seniors.”

On an encouraging side note, it may have taken them a little bit longer than other schools, but Bastyr University seems to have finally figured out what a microscope can be used for and has updated their site’s photos accordingly. They also seem to have rethought how much PPE is actually required when handling commercially prepared and sealed tissue slides; however, if they really want to boldly announce to the world, “We can science. We can science REAL hard,” then the next time that they update their website’s pictures, they should probably unwrap their microscopes’ power cords when they’re in use.

June 23rd, 2014 vs. March 22nd, 2015

Still, it’s progress.
At least they aren't trying to boast about the quality of their clinical training by featuring pictures of students learning to auscultate heart sounds through clothes.

(Sry. I'm not making fun of your cousin OP; I'm just being obnoxiously critical of Bastyr & natropathy.)

Do they not realize virtual microscopy exists now?
Also, I'm pretty sure if my preceptor saw me auscultating through clothes she might shank me with a broken tongue depressor.

 

[Winged Scapula]

To be fair, its pretty easy to find pictures of actual medical students auscultating through clothes or on mannequins.

Am I the only one that wants to pronounce the school as "Bastard"?

 

[DeejayDO]

If there are shaman beads or magic crystals involved, I'm not too keen on it. However, I do think natural medicine has a place in modern-day care. I actually go to a naturopath in conjunction with my PCP to stay on top of my general health, nutrition, and fitness. I have a lot of food allergies and natural remedies have helped ease the long-term symptoms of years of eating the wrong foods. Through my naturopath, I have learned to use food to heal my body and maintain a high level of wellness. These are things I never would have learned from my doctor.

 

[Fyxen]

what do you want us to tell you?

here's how allopathic medicine works: researcher digs up tree root -> determines it possibly has clinical effects -> clinical trials -> it actually works or not -> if it does companies that can consistently produce this product then distribute it -> people's health benefits

here's how naturopathic medicine works: researcher digs up tree root -> determines it possibly has clinical effects -> companies that cannot consistently produce this product then distribute it -> it has whatever effects it might happen

 

[Goro]

Radon, belladonna and arsenic are all natural products, too!

Anecdotes can be powerful tools in these cases, since it is often anecdotes that get people down this path in the first place.

My personal anecdote is that we had to transplant a patient in fulminant liver failure from taking natural supplements. These herbs and such are not just "harmless" and the idea that something is natural and therefore safe is absurd.

My non-personal anecdote is the tale of Steve Jobs, who had a resectable pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor that he attempted to treat "naturally" for over a year before every undergoing surgery, at which time it had metastasized to his liver.

 

[deleted480308]

If there are shaman beads or magic crystals involved, I'm not too keen on it. However, I do think natural medicine has a place in modern-day care. I actually go to a naturopath in conjunction with my PCP to stay on top of my general health, nutrition, and fitness. I have a lot of food allergies and natural remedies have helped ease the long-term symptoms of years of eating the wrong foods. Through my naturopath, I have learned to use food to heal my body and maintain a high level of wellness. These are things I never would have learned from my doctor.

everything that has been proven to be helpful absolutely could have been learned through an actual doctor

 

[Doctor Bob]

however, if they really want to boldly announce to the world, “We can science. We can science REAL hard,” then the next time that they update their website’s pictures, they should probably unwrap their microscopes’ power cords when they’re in use.

Hahahaha... that one made me laugh.
Maybe they're trying to say that if you can't see things through an unlit microscope, then you don't meet their rigorous admission requirements.

At least they aren't trying to boast about the quality of their clinical training by featuring pictures of students learning to auscultate heart sounds through clothes.

I would give them a pass on this one though... I do a lot of my auscultation through the patient's gown. As long as the gown isn't shifting back and forth across their skin it doesn't affect anything. And the sound of a sliding gown is pretty distinctive.

 

[jqueb29]

How about moving the discussion of the thread to Chiropractors now?

Are chiropractors just as dubious as naturopathic doctors?

While I would by no means consider a chiropractor to be a doctor, in my opinion they are better than naturopaths because they do actually have a useful role they can carry out. My wife and I were in a car wreck a couple years ago and got pretty bad whiplash. I went to the hospital, but all they had to offer me was pain medicine and the advice of ice and rest. I had really bad neck pain still, and eventually went to a chiro, who x-rayed me and then did an adjustment treatment. After 2 of those, my pain was gone for good. So, in specific cases and when it's actually an intelligent chiropractor, chiropractice can provide some benefit. I know D.O.'s hate when people say "oh so you're like a chiropractor?" because obviously a D.O. is a million times better and OMT is just one of many tools in their belt while it's the only tool chiros have, but a good chiropractor can sometimes provide good OMT-like therapy.

 

[DeejayDO]

everything that has been proven to be helpful absolutely could have been learned through an actual doctor

I know that, but they rarely promote what I received through my naturopath, much less have the time to do so. That was my point, which is why I said I have used both together to get to a healthier place

 

[Grrath]

everything that has been proven to be helpful absolutely could have been learned through an actual doctor

I know way too many doctors who'd throw a bottle of pills at your head and run out the room before they would talk about natural options. I'm certain that the rise of naturopathy is due to people being disillusioned by the system. It shouldn't be any surprise they tend to say they can treat diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have magical bullets for.

 

[deleted480308]

I know way too many doctors who'd throw a bottle of pills at your head and run out the room before they would talk about natural options. I'm certain that the rise of naturopathy is due to people being disillusioned by the system. It shouldn't be any surprise they tend to say they can treat diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have magical bullets for.

you mean the bottle of pills with the scientific clinical trials saying they work?

 

[PL198]

I know way too many doctors who'd throw a bottle of pills at your head and run out the room before they would talk about natural options. I'm certain that the rise of naturopathy is due to people being disillusioned by the system. It shouldn't be any surprise they tend to say they can treat diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have magical bullets for.

what are some of those diseases?

 

[Grrath]

you mean the bottle of pills with the scientific clinical trials saying they work?

Don't get me wrong, naturopathic medicine is total quackery and the people who practice it should be ashamed. I'm just not surprised it's getting a lot bigger considering how much people think mainstream doctors are literally the agents of Satan.

 

[Psai]

I know way too many doctors who'd throw a bottle of pills at your head and run out the room before they would talk about natural options. I'm certain that the rise of naturopathy is due to people being disillusioned by the system. It shouldn't be any surprise they tend to say they can treat diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have magical bullets for.

Lol

 

[NontradCA]

To be fair, its pretty easy to find pictures of actual medical students auscultating through clothes

I see FP attendings do this a lot.

 

[NontradCA]

While I think most chiro is harmless at worst, personally I would never ever let them touch my neck.

 

[Grrath]

what are some of those diseases?

Pretty much anything chronic. People love quick fixes and naturopathy to gives them the (false) hope that they can get it.

 

[Grrath]

I think we need to alert PETA.

 

[NontradCA]

I know way too many doctors who'd throw a bottle of pills at your head and run out the room before they would talk about natural options. I'm certain that the rise of naturopathy is due to people being disillusioned by the system. It shouldn't be any surprise they tend to say they can treat diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have magical bullets for.

What are you even talking bout? Sure there are non medicinal methods that would reduce mortality drastically. It's called diet and exercise. It's that simple. Adding the bs that's in naturopathic medicine just complicates it and creates confusion for patients, particularly those who want to take things the easy way.

 

[Grrath]

What are you even talking bout? Sure there are non medicinal methods that would reduce mortality drastically. It's called diet and exercise. It's that simple. Adding the bs that's in naturopathic medicine just complicates it and creates confusion for patients, particularly those who want to take things the easy way.

Like I said before, I'm not defending naturopathy. I'm defending the patients right to make terrible decisions based on their reactions to a healthcare system that they neither trust nor understand. Unless actual doctors try to fix those problems, quackery isn't gonna go away. (Not that it's a problem that needs solving, hopefully the chain of people spending money on worthless crap ends with the naturopaths.)

 

[deleted500612]

What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

 

[deleted500612]

Don't get me wrong, naturopathic medicine is total quackery and the people who practice it should be ashamed. I'm just not surprised it's getting a lot bigger considering how much people think mainstream doctors are literally the agents of Satan.

And considering how half the population has miraculously developed a spontaneous gluten intolerance in the last 5 years, conveniently around the same time that articles started circulating the web regarding how gluten is the devil. Oh yeah, and then there's the paleo/organic/anti-GMO zealots. I'm surprised they dont all have a naturopath on speed dial. Well I guess they probably do, I suppose thats why I see my local naturopath driving around in a new Benz laughing all the time.

 

[link2swim06]

Like I said before, I'm not defending naturopathy. I'm defending the patients right to make terrible decisions based on their reactions to a healthcare system that they neither trust nor understand. Unless actual doctors try to fix those problems, quackery isn't gonna go away. (Not that it's a problem that needs solving, hopefully the chain of people spending money on worthless crap ends with the naturopaths.)

People can 'choose' whatever they want...but they shouldn't be lied to just based on a free-market standpoint.

If sold you a car with claims of a v8 engine and it only had a 4 cylinder engine would that be illegal, fraud, unethical?

If I sell ('prescribe') you a tree-root with claims that it cures your asthma, isn't that pretty close to the same damn thing?

 

[Mad Jack]

Do they not realize virtual microscopy exists now?
Also, I'm pretty sure if my preceptor saw me auscultating through clothes she might shank me with a broken tongue depressor.

I'm totally guilty of auscultating breath sounds through clothes fairly often in the past. Heart sounds I could never do, but breath sounds? They're so easy...

 

[Mad Jack]

Comment #2 on the video:

 

[NontradCA]

And considering how half the population has miraculously developed a spontaneous gluten intolerance in the last 5 years, conveniently around the same time that articles started circulating the web regarding how gluten is the devil. Oh yeah, and then there's the paleo/organic/anti-GMO zealots. I'm surprised they dont all have a naturopath on speed dial. Well I guess they probably do, I suppose thats why I see my local naturopath driving around in a new Benz laughing all the time.

Dude. I already decided I'm opening up a Holistic Osteopathic Center for Weight Loss™ in SF when I graduate.

 

[WingedOx]

Let's not forget that the makers of such "natural products" have a nice little lobby going for them. Tom Harkin of Iowa was huge agitator for them.

 

[PL198]

And considering how half the population has miraculously developed a spontaneous gluten intolerance in the last 5 years, conveniently around the same time that articles started circulating the web regarding how gluten is the devil. Oh yeah, and then there's the paleo/organic/anti-GMO zealots. I'm surprised they dont all have a naturopath on speed dial. Well I guess they probably do, I suppose thats why I see my local naturopath driving around in a new Benz laughing all the time.

I'm critical of naturopaths but paleo is better than anything allopathic physicians know about diets. hell they have debated dietary fat and cholesterol for like the last 50 years. give me a break. nutrition is one place where allopathic medicine is god awful. which is hilarious because aside from vaccines, I don't really know what could have a better/similar affect on health outcomes than proper diets.

 

[deleted500612]

I'm critical of naturopaths but paleo is better than anything allopathic physicians know about diets. hell they have debated dietary fat and cholesterol for like the last 50 years. give me a break. nutrition is one place where allopathic medicine is god awful

I'm not saying that allopathic physicians know everything about diet, doctors are not taught much at all about food or dieting in medical school to be honest. That doesn't negate the fact that there is zero evidence to support the paleo diet, none whatsoever. It's a fad diet based off the false premise that because our distant ancestors ate like hunter-gatherers it must be better for us. This is flawed logic on so many levels.

 

[NontradCA]

I'm critical of naturopaths but paleo is better than anything allopathic physicians know about diets. hell they have debated dietary fat and cholesterol for like the last 50 years. give me a break. nutrition is one place where allopathic medicine is god awful

So usually the paleo diet consists of low fiber , high animal fats in the popular diet. This is inconsistent with the "real" paleo diet which had upwards of 150 grams of fiber in their diet. In general, a lot of the literature in nutrition is inconsistent and compares to the **** most Americans consume. That's why it's easy for these gurus and quacks to prey on the industry and it's poor regulation. That's why I'm gonna be rich with my weight loss center.

 

[PL198]

I'm not saying that allopathic physicians know everything about diet, doctors are not taught much at all about food or dieting in medical school to be honest. That doesn't negate the fact that there is zero evidence to support the paleo diet, none whatsoever. It's a fad diet based off the false premise that because our distant ancestors ate like hunter-gatherers it must be better for us. This is flawed logic on so many levels.

eh I wouldn't call it a fad diet. I'd hardly say there's zero evidence to support it either. there's no evidence that parachutes are superior to control. if every american switched to paleo, that would be 10 steps in the right direction and I'm not a proponent of paleo.

unquestionably from a nutrition standpoint the problems are as follows:
1) refined carbs
2) fat isn't actually evil
3) not enough protein

following paleo gets someone 100x closer to a decent diet than a typical american's diet does.

 

[PL198]

if we look at evidence, then gastric bypass is the only statistically significant way for people to lose weight. I'm all for evidence but it's not the end-all-be-all. in those studies, it's not the method that's failing, it's people actually adhering to the method. I don't think anyone would debate that gastric bypass is the only way to lose weight, yet if you look at literature, that phrase is there.

 

[NontradCA]

eh I wouldn't call it a fad diet. I'd hardly say there's zero evidence to support it either. there's no evidence that parachutes are superior to control. if every american switched to paleo, that would be 10 steps in the right direction and I'm not a proponent of paleo.

unquestionably from a nutrition standpoint the problems are as follows:
1) refined carbs
2) fat isn't actually evil
3) not enough protein

following paleo gets someone 100x closer to a decent diet than a typical american's diet does.

There is a lot of research going into fat being important in the pathogenesis of diabetes. Animal fats especially are linked to cancer and and all cause mortality. We already consume enough protein.