What non surgical specialties requires you to work 12 hrs or less (in public sector)?

[bashwell]

Yes i never worked as much as doctors do but i do know that i can do that which is why i know that i belong there. I shadowed a few doctors , got to see how exactly their day looks like and yes i still want it. I am sure of my capabilities and i will be doing the best i could do while studying. I already am the top student at my school (and that is how it has been for the past 2 years) and everybody knows that. Even the teachers keep on telling me that. I was even asked for my picture to be hanged on one of the walls of my school but i didnt like the idea so i refused to let them do that. Anyway, i didnt want to talk about my achievements since this might make the people on this forum think that i am showing off but i had to give you an idea on how good i am at studying. Like i said, i am taking it no matter how many hours i will be asked to work. I only posted this thread to see if there is anything like that but the thing is that even if there is no 13 hr job , i am still taking it. Let it be 28 straight hours. I know that i can take it all , and that is one of the reasons why i cant see myself studying anything else. I am highly motivated and i am willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.

You have a lot of confidence. Lots of med students and doctors (maybe most) were at the top of their high school class too. Just make sure you actually get into med school first.

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[Instatewaiter]

Yes i never worked as much as doctors do but i do know that i can do that which is why i know that i belong there. I shadowed a few doctors , got to see how exactly their day looks like and yes i still want it. I am sure of my capabilities and i will be doing the best i could do while studying. I already am the top student at my school (and that is how it has been for the past 2 years) and everybody knows that. Even the teachers keep on telling me that. I was even asked for my picture to be hanged on one of the walls of my school but i didnt like the idea so i refused to let them do that. Anyway, i didnt want to talk about my achievements since this might make the people on this forum think that i am showing off but i had to give you an idea on how good i am at studying. Like i said, i am taking it no matter how many hours i will be asked to work. I only posted this thread to see if there is anything like that but the thing is that even if there is no 13 hr job , i am still taking it. Let it be 28 straight hours. I know that i can take it all , and that is one of the reasons why i cant see myself studying anything else. I am highly motivated and i am willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.

Oh, you shadowed a few doctors and now you know that you belong in medicine but obviously don't have the slightest concept of what residency or attendinghood entails. Do more research before you come off sounding like a know-it-all who clearly knows little.

As to your acheivement, realize that essentially everyone who is a physician was at the top of their high school class. You call that an acheivement but realize that is common in medicine. Even the guy at the bottom of the medical school class was a wonderful high school student and a top college student. Yet he still end up at the bottom of the class.

Also the past tense of hang is hung. However, when you are talking about hanging someone to death, the past tense is hanged (the only usage of hanged). So are you not sure they didn't want to hang you from one of the walls because of your attitude? Or by picture did you mean an effigy- so were you going to be hanged in effigy by your classmates? For someone with such "achievements" I'd expect more

 

[KMNDR12]

You have a lot of confidence. Lots of med students and doctors (maybe most) were at the top of their high school class too. Just make sure you actually get into med school first.

Yes i will make sure of that. And you are right , med students really are highly qualified

Oh, you shadowed a few doctors and now you know that you belong in medicine but obviously don't have the slightest concept of what residency or attendinghood entails. Do more research before you come off sounding like a know-it-all who clearly knows little.

As to your acheivement, realize that essentially everyone who is a physician was at the top of their high school class. You call that an acheivement but realize that is common in medicine. Even the guy at the bottom of the medical school class was a wonderful high school student and a top college student. Yet he still end up at the bottom of the class.

Also the past tense of hang is hung. However, when you are talking about hanging someone to death, the past tense is hanged (the only usage of hanged). So are you not sure they didn't want to hang you from one of the walls because of your attitude? Or by picture did you mean an effigy- so were you going to be hanged in effigy by your classmates? For someone with such "achievements" I'd expect more

1-English is not my first language so its ok if i made some grammar mistakes.
2-Yes i do realize that most of the medical students were doing very well during high school. So what ? That doesnt make them any better than me (and it doesnt make me better than them either).
3-"clearly knows little" . So just because i didnt know the answer to that question , i only know little ?

 

[Kurk]

Yes i will make sure of that. And you are right , med students really are highly qualified

1-English is not my first language so its ok if i made some grammar mistakes.
2-Yes i do realize that most of the medical students were doing very well during high school. So what ? That doesnt make them any better than me (and it doesnt make me better than them either).
3-"clearly knows little" . So just because i didnt know the answer to that question , i only know little ?

From my experience on here (check out the "why do fancy cars have a stigma attached to them on SDN" forum) it's best not to argue endlessly with the doctors on here as they're relentless.

 

[deleted245139]

To be fair... us "relentless doctors" are the ones who's opinions you're seeking. Since we've lived through it and are on the other side, I think we are uniquely qualified to give you the best insight. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't make it wrong. Carry on

 

[Mad Jack]

lol i am a high school senior . ik that is gonna piss u off but yeah that is how it is . i had to lie to get in here. i do have passion for medicine . i really do . I also do have the qualities required to make me a good doctor and everybody tells me that. i am always getting excellent grades , i have a great patience , i am workaholic etc. And i am always doing my best to improve. but the thing is that i am not willing to spend more than 13 hours daily at work. i want to have a normal life but apparently doctors cant do that. unless if there are some medical specialties that require me to work for 13 hours or less (daily). I dont care about the hours that i will spend working during my residency . that is okay for me bcz i wont be having anything to care about except for my residency. But after that , i want to have a family , a normal life ! i dont wanna see them for less than 3 hours a day and then get 5 hours of sleep. you think that i am trolling bcz i am asking stupid questions that medical students already know.

EM, FM, psych, IM (outpatient, hospitalist can get a bit dicey as shifts are 12 hours and you're often charting post-shift), PM&R, derm, neurology, etc... But in all of these specialties, you will put in 16-30 hour shifts during residency, plus highly variable hours during medical school (we've got 24 hour call shifts on OB, and are on from 5ish in the morning to around midnight every other weekend during surgery, for instance, and have two weeks of night float on IM where I'm going to school). And then there's call, which most fields have to varying degrees, that can make your days off not so much days off. Just do a search for lifestyle specialties, it'll give you an idea of the advantages, disadvantages, and hours of each. This is not a new topic, it has been discussed numerous times in the past.

Pls be streampaw back for more fun.

 

[Mad Jack]

From my experience on here (check out the "why do fancy cars have a stigma attached to them on SDN" forum) it's best not to argue endlessly with the doctors on here as they're relentless.

>asks for opinions
>gets upset when he gets too many opinions

 

[Kurk]

>asks for opinions
>gets upset when he gets too many opinions

I wasn't asking for opinions. I advised the OP to not have a repeat of my infamous thread.

 

[Law2Doc]

I mean hey, I don't mind not sleeping for a day or two; I just don't like feeling of my heart straining and thinking that I could potentially collapse either in that moment or develop a condition when I'm older due to abusing my body. Hypocritical to love the human body and go into medicine only to end up abusing it lol.

Or maybe it's not hypocritical and the doctors on here telling you that this is well within the limits of what a young healthy human body can handle know a thing or two about it. Again a lot of this seems undoable as a high school student. But then years later a lot of us somehow manage to do it and it's really no big thing after all. More of a bogeyman than a real issue. Stop pretending your heart will strain and you'll collapse when tens of thousands of doctors manage it just fine every year.

 

[Kurk]

Stop pretending your heart will strain and you'll collapse when tens of thousands of doctors manage it just fine every year.

I'm thinking about the long term here (20+ years). Isn't it pretty much accepted within the medical community that long-term sleep deprivation affects your cardiovascular health later? Of course SDN is not the place to discuss these things but oh well.

 

[candbgirl]

20+ years of sleep deprivation would probably kill you but who would do that. I think you'd be dead long before 20 years. And most likely from an accident related to the sleep deprivation.


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[Instatewaiter]

From my experience on here (check out the "why do fancy cars have a stigma attached to them on SDN" forum) it's best not to argue endlessly with the doctors on here as they're relentless.

No, it's not that we're relentless it's that we are right...

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm thinking about the long term here (20+ years). Isn't it pretty much accepted within the medical community that long-term sleep deprivation affects your cardiovascular health later? Of course SDN is not the place to discuss these things but oh well.

Well, if this is really the case, show me a study which shows worse cardiovascular outcomes in physicians.

 

[Kurk]

Well, if this is really the case, show me a study which shows worse cardiovascular outcomes in physicians.

Can't say I can link one specifically to physicians, but here is one on 24 hour shifts linked to an increase in cardiovascular disease in EMTs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27487176
Here are general studies linking sleep deprivation to stroke/cardiovascular:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25828682
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25817615
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25785893
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25353305

I found one specifically on physicians:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25213642

Well, you get the point. It's a real issue and I'm not "pretending" that they exist @Law2Doc

20+ years of sleep deprivation would probably kill you but who would do that. I think you'd be dead long before 20 years. And most likely from an accident related to the sleep deprivation.


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I meant years of doing it residency takes a toll on you 20 years later when you're more prone to these diseases.

No, it's not that we're relentless it's that we are right...

About the car/lifestyle thing? No, that's just personal preference for different people and their lifestyles. On health-related issues? Yes of course you're going to know more than some high-school student.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm thinking about the long term here (20+ years). Isn't it pretty much accepted within the medical community that long-term sleep deprivation affects your cardiovascular health later? Of course SDN is not the place to discuss these things but oh well.

I'm guess I am not getting your premise. Doing a long overnight call every few days is not "long-term sleep deprivation". You do the shift, go home and sleep it off - it's not long term deprivation. And it's not something that's going to cause young healthy people any ill effects (now or 20 years from now) although they may not love doing it. I assure you there, are plenty of physicians who continue a healthy dose of call well into their later years of practice without ill effects.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
I meant years of doing it residency takes a toll on you 20 years later when you're more prone to these diseases...

No. Again there are 20,000 new residents a year, and call has been going on for many decades. (And back then call was far more burdensome than now). If this really occurred we'd see an epidemic among older doctors by now...

 

[Instatewaiter]

Can't say I can link one specifically to physicians, but here is one on 24 hour shifts linked to an increase in cardiovascular disease in EMTs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27487176
Here are general studies linking sleep deprivation to stroke/cardiovascular:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25828682
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25817615
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25785893
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25353305

I found one specifically on physicians:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25213642

Yeah I asked about studies with cardiovascular OUTCOMES (ie MI, stroke, death) in physicians, not about studies whose result is based upon a surrogate for a surrogate endpoint which may be related to true cardiovascular outcomes in physicians. I can cite scores of studies based on surrogate endpoints which when the real, randomized trial with the actual outcome ended up being negative.

What you cite are basically worthless studies in worthless journals. The main one you posted is in the journal Anesthetist which has a robust impact factor of 0.6, similar to the The South East Asian Journal of Case Report and Reveiws. That basically means, by posting it here on SDN, that is the most action that journal has gotten in years.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
What you cite are basically worthless studies in worthless journals. The main one you posted is in the journal Anesthetist which has a robust impact factor of 0.6, similar to the The South East Asian Journal of Case Report and Reveiws. That basically means, by posting it here on SDN, that is the most action that journal has gotten in years.

Yeah, just a word of caution regarding citing journals. With the need for people in certain academic venues to publish regularly, we have seen a rise in open source, pay to play journals, which are happy to publish articles online, without much peer review or editing, for a not so modest fee. I get a dozen such offers to "publish my manuscripts" a week, as I'm sure all doctors do. So when you see an article in a journal nobody has heard of or with a very low impact factor, that's often what you are dealing with. It generally means the author couldn't get the article published in a more prestigious journal, sometimes because it didn't or wouldn't withstand the scrutiny of peer review. So just throwing cites out there without looking where they come from isn't enough. Not everything that gets in print or online is of equal weight.

If doctors really were dropping like flies 20 years out of residency you'd think we'd be talking New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA or something of that caliber.

 

[Kurk]

I'm guess I am not getting your premise. Doing a long overnight call every few days is not "long-term sleep deprivation". You do the shift, go home and sleep it off - it's not long term deprivation. And it's not something that's going to cause young healthy people any ill effects (now or 20 years from now) although they may not love doing it. I assure you there, are plenty of physicians who continue a healthy dose of call well into their later years of practice without ill effects.

So are you saying that residents get 36 hours on-shift and then 12-24 hours off? Or is it expected that you finish your 3 day shift, go home and sleep for 8 hours, and return to work after that time? The former doesn't sound too bad but I can't say the same for the latter...

 

[Law2Doc]

So are you saying that residents get 36 hours on-shift and then 12-24 hours off? Or is it expected that you finish your 3 day shift, go home and sleep for 8 hours, and return to work after that time? The former doesn't sound too bad but I can't say the same for the latter...

Not sure what you mean by a three day shift. When I was an intern you might do 30 hours, say 6 am to 12 pm the next day, leave at noon, and come back in at 6 am the next day (so really 18 hours to recover). You'd then have a couple of normal 12 hour days between 30 hour shifts. (That's the whole q3, or q4 system, how many days from call to call). It leaves no permanent scars. Literally hundreds of thousands of doctors have been through this over the years. Under the new ACGME rules, interns cant do this many hours in a row any more so they end up with lengthy stretches of nights instead, which most of us feel is worse.

 

[Goro]

It's generally not a good idea to argue with people who know what they're doing, and have been doing it for along time.

From my experience on here (check out the "why do fancy cars have a stigma attached to them on SDN" forum) it's best not to argue endlessly with the doctors on here as they're relentless.

 

[Kurk]

It's generally not a good idea to argue with people who know what they're doing, and have been doing it for along time.

I don't disagree.