kmnfive

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Natural Doctor? Anyone hear of this? it sounds like a breakoff from DO or something....

let me know -=)

danke
 

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I'm an ND.
 

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Norwegin Dude???
 

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I've heard of it, but I have no idea where you can get this degree.
 

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kmnfive said:
Natural Doctor? Anyone hear of this? it sounds like a breakoff from DO or something....

let me know -=)

danke
This has no relation to osteopathic medicine, but good try.

ND --> Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine

These doctors are involved in acuptuncture and herbal healing. They are not considered Medical Physicians/Surgeons, but are able to practice in some states with limited power. They use methods other than pharmacology and surgery to "heal."

Only D.O.'s & M.D.'s can be fully licensed medical physicians and surgeons in all 50 states.
 

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Doctor of naturopathy? I read a book my Andrew Weil, who is like a pop-culture DO, (Health and Healing was the title) and he said that the doctor of nature is the most un-regulated degree. He went over allopathic medicine, Osteopathic medicine, Chiropractic Medicine, Homeopathic Medicine, Naturopathy, and basically critiqued their credibility. He is very much a hippy type, so he said you could find proper treatment from any type of medicine; however one should be weary of naturopathy because it seemed rather fishy since there was no consistency from school to school with its teachings.
 

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ElKapitan said:
Doctor of naturopathy? I read a book my Andrew Weil, who is like a pop-culture DO, (Health and Healing was the title) and he said that the doctor of nature is the most un-regulated degree. He went over allopathic medicine, Osteopathic medicine, Chiropractic Medicine, Homeopathic Medicine, Naturopathy, and basically critiqued their credibility. He is very much a hippy type, so he said you could find proper treatment from any type of medicine; however one should be weary of naturopathy because it seemed rather fishy since there was no consistency from school to school with its teachings.
Dr. Weil is an MD and a professor at the University of Arizona and is a proponent of integrative medicine. Some people disagree with him, but he's not a quack. I know ElKaptian wasn't calling him one, but I just feel like defending the guy as he's often a target for people who aim their sights at anything other than traditional allopathic medicine.
 

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Larsitron said:
Dr. Weil is an MD and a professor at the University of Arizona and is a proponent of integrative medicine. Some people disagree with him, but he's not a quack. I know ElKaptian wasn't calling him one, but I just feel like defending the guy as he's often a target for people who aim their sights at anything other than traditional allopathic medicine.
I found his book extremely informative, it gives a history of medicine, as well as its place in contemporary society. He is a good guy in my book.
 

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kmnfive said:
Natural Doctor? Anyone hear of this? it sounds like a breakoff from DO or something....

let me know -=)

danke
a wanna-be doc
 

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A tribal medicine man in modern day is what they seem like to me. My dad knows a couple of them and they are f#@king crazy.
 

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chocolate-e said:
so we're all NDs, then? ;)
heh, i guess so....


another possible abbreviation: ND = Nonsense Doc (not referring to the nurses)
 

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I had an A&P professor that was an ND. She had her own practice, and was a professor as well. ND's go to medical school with a similar curriculum to MD's or DO's... They still have to take all the pre med requirements that MD and DO's do...

Naturopathic physicians are primary care providers who look at treating the whole person, but their practice includes laboratory and clinical diagnosis, botanical medicine, nutrition, homeopathy, and preventative medicine. They can practice in any state where they meet the licensing and state req's, and take ND boards as well. They do a four year med program, and do the last two years in clinicals, and still learn the same pharmacology etc., as MD and DO students.

The ND I knew worked with other family doctors (I believe a couple MD's and a DO) in a private practice in PA. Its a very interesting field, and they focus a lot on preventative medication, and supplemental medicine.

see their site for more info: http://www.aanmc.org/faq.php#licensure
 

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Hets said:
I had an A&P professor that was an ND. She had her own practice, and was a professor as well. ND's go to medical school with a similar curriculum to MD's or DO's... They still have to take all the pre med requirements that MD and DO's do...

Naturopathic physicians are primary care providers who look at treating the whole person, but their practice includes laboratory and clinical diagnosis, botanical medicine, nutrition, homeopathy, and preventative medicine. They can practice in any state where they meet the licensing and state req's, and take ND boards as well. They do a four year med program, and do the last two years in clinicals, and still learn the same pharmacology etc., as MD and DO students.
Just cause they take classes with the same titles does not necessarily mean they are of the same quality...
 

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vikaskoth said:
this should give you an idea, ricky williams is in a college for this right now
Ricky Williams really entered a ND program? Where?
 

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getunconcsious said:
North Dakota. The credential signifies that the person is from North Dakota.
No no no, everyone's wrong except this guy ^^^^ :laugh: :laugh:
 

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Hets said:
I had an A&P professor that was an ND. She had her own practice, and was a professor as well. ND's go to medical school with a similar curriculum to MD's or DO's... They still have to take all the pre med requirements that MD and DO's do...

Naturopathic physicians are primary care providers who look at treating the whole person, but their practice includes laboratory and clinical diagnosis, botanical medicine, nutrition, homeopathy, and preventative medicine. They can practice in any state where they meet the licensing and state req's, and take ND boards as well. They do a four year med program, and do the last two years in clinicals, and still learn the same pharmacology etc., as MD and DO students.

The ND I knew worked with other family doctors (I believe a couple MD's and a DO) in a private practice in PA. Its a very interesting field, and they focus a lot on preventative medication, and supplemental medicine.

see their site for more info: http://www.aanmc.org/faq.php#licensure
:sleep:

Only MD's and DO's can be licensed as full medical physicians & surgeons in all 50 states. ND curriculum obviously is not equivalent, or the same would be true of ND's.
 

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Naturopathic Doctor, herbal supplements, homeopathy, "alternative therapies." Here in Oregon is the "Mother Ship" of naturopathic medicine in the US. In Oregon they can Rx for anything that is "natural", e.g. morphine but not fentanyl. My downstairs neighbor is a NP student. One of the ICU nurses at the Portland VA is a NP with a naturopathic practice she shares with another NP. They push a lot of vitamins, claim to "detoxify" their patients, practice homeopathy -- distilled water that they claim is an infinite dilution of a substance. Get this... the water in the infinite dilution supposedly has a "memory" of the therapeutic substance and it is this memory that is therapeutic. I think this may violate the second law of thermodynamics, but what the hell. They are a bunch of quacks practicing what was probably considered bad medicine a hundred years ago. On the plus side they have a lot more time to spend with their patients.
 

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futuredoc10 said:
Ricky Williams really entered a ND program? Where?
Some school in California. Saw it on Sportscenter.
 

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Some of the naturopathic practices are legit (herbs, accupuncture, nutrition, preventive care), but a lot of the patients are desperately searching for a cure to a disease with obscure symptoms. These symptoms come and go with current "vogue syndrome" trends. Lyme disease, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, nematode infestation, etc. I won't mock the ND practice, since some of the more obscure medical practices really are fascinating and probably do work on some level. Unfortunately, the quacks get the publicity and overshadow most of the healing work that does occur.
Here are two of the better schools:
National College of Naturopathic Medicine
http://www.ncnm.edu/intro.html
Bastyr University
http://www.bastyr.edu/
 

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Code Brown said:
So he'll be a yoga instructor then?
He sure is leading one crazy life!
 
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kmnfive

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Furrball said:
Naturopathic Doctor, herbal supplements, homeopathy, "alternative therapies." Here in Oregon is the "Mother Ship" of naturopathic medicine in the US. In Oregon they can Rx for anything that is "natural", e.g. morphine but not fentanyl. My downstairs neighbor is a NP student. One of the ICU nurses at the Portland VA is a NP with a naturopathic practice she shares with another NP. They push a lot of vitamins, claim to "detoxify" their patients, practice homeopathy -- distilled water that they claim is an infinite dilution of a substance. Get this... the water in the infinite dilution supposedly has a "memory" of the therapeutic substance and it is this memory that is therapeutic. I think this may violate the second law of thermodynamics, but what the hell. They are a bunch of quacks practicing what was probably considered bad medicine a hundred years ago. On the plus side they have a lot more time to spend with their patients.

Would chiropractors be pushed under this label too as ND's?
 

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kmnfive said:
Would chiropractors be pushed under this label too as ND's?
No, chiropracters are chiropracters. They have different schools and different professional licensing exams, and most importantly different areas of clinical care. We just had a talk on CAM as part of our transition to residency week. OHSU is part of some NIH funded CAM/integraged medicine grant. So I am lucky enough to be a part of the first class to complete the integraative medicine curriculum, joy.....

If I may quote from the handout given to us by an ND; "a licensed ND attends a four year graduate level naturopathic medical school and is educated in all of the same basic sciences as an MD but also studies holistic and nontoxic appraoches to therapy with a strong emphasis on disease prevention and optimizing wellness. In addition to a standard medical curriculum, the ND is rerequired to coompleete four years of training in clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, psychology, and counseling. Currently 13 states, DC, and the US territories of Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands have licensing laws for NDs." They aso have a national licensing exam, the NPLEX. States that license NDs are: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, DC, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon, Utah, Vermont.

They have a very different philosophies and a wide range in standard of care. In other words some are completely reasonable while others are nut-jobs. But if you live in a state where NDs are licensed you have to get used to having them arround and having patients that see them.
 

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I have a friend who completed a naturopathic medicine program at Bastyr University (in Seattle.) He is now a licensed---and unemployed--Naturopathic Physician.

If you are looking for a defintion of naturopathy, google it.

My understanding is that their curriculum is quite similar to an MD's for the first couple of years, except they take additional courses about naturopathic treatments and theory and fewer about things like pharmacology...also, they don't do the same clinical rotations as MDs, instead, they do practical training in a Naturopathic clinic.

His experience has been frustrating...during your education you are surrounded by a group of people who buy into the utility and effectiveness of naturopathy whole-heartedly while downplaying the fact that a licensed naturopath can't perform surgery nor prescribe drugs. By the time you are done, you are indoctrinized to believe that those things are of little importance anyway, that the best work to do is in "preventative maintenance." The problem is that people don't go to the doctor when they are healthy and want to prevent something, they go when they are sick! Secondly, if you can't prescribe drugs, manipulate bones, or do any other useful thing for someone who is currently suffering, that leaves a really narrow scope of practice.

Regardless, some insurance companies are reimbursing naturopaths. Group Health even employs them. But those jobs are extremely limited.

My buddy's realization was that, unfortunately, after earning his degree he was SOL for making any money because there were no jobs and the cost of going into private practice was prohibitively high. Even if he could gather the required dollars to open a small practice, it is WAY harder for an ND to attract patients because people want tried and true therapies when they get sick.

My $0.02
 

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The ND's may take similar courses to MD's & DO's, but they are not equivalent. The standards are just not the same. The training is considered limited and inferior, and they cannot perform the full scope of surgery and medical privileges.
 

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This site is pretty fascinating! Well please allow a newbie to join in on the conversation...

I am a practitioner of oriental medicine, meaning I perform acupuncture and prescribe oriental herbs. Naturopaths are not trained in acpuncture at all. They might take a class about it, but the curriculm does not include training to treat patients with acupuncture and prescribe oriental herbal formulas. From what i understand, naturopaths are trained to diagnose just like MDs and DOs and treat the patients by prescribing natural remedies such as extracts, vitamins, and other supplements. Some insurance companies do reimburse for their services, but i am pretty sure the natural remedies are excluded.

Bastyr is a great school for Naturopathic Medicine. They also have a program for Oriental Medicine and the school is very reputable. However, finding a job as an alternative medicine practitioner (chiropractors, NDs, acupuncturists like myself, and homeopaths) is extremely difficult. Private practice is a difficult proposition especially for a new graduate of alternative medicine.

Naturopathic medicine, oriental medicine, ayurveda is pretty popular along the west coast. But I will say this about the schools offering these programs: The admissions standards are lax, in some cases completely ignored, by many of the alternative medicine schools cause they need to make money. It's getting to be a sad predicament cause these schools are popping up all over the country.

Oh and ricky williams is planning to be an ayurvedic practitioner and not an ND. But this does not mean he will get more access to cannabis sativa by any means...
 

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Case offers an ND degree, but it is a Doctor of Nursing degree, not a naturopathic doctor degree. It is offered through their nursing school. Apparently for people who want to be clinical supervisors.
 

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spundit said:
This site is pretty fascinating! Well please allow a newbie to join in on the conversation...

I am a practitioner of oriental medicine, meaning I perform acupuncture and prescribe oriental herbs. Naturopaths are not trained in acpuncture at all. They might take a class about it, but the curriculm does not include training to treat patients with acupuncture and prescribe oriental herbal formulas. From what i understand, naturopaths are trained to diagnose just like MDs and DOs and treat the patients by prescribing natural remedies such as extracts, vitamins, and other supplements. Some insurance companies do reimburse for their services, but i am pretty sure the natural remedies are excluded.

Bastyr is a great school for Naturopathic Medicine. They also have a program for Oriental Medicine and the school is very reputable. However, finding a job as an alternative medicine practitioner (chiropractors, NDs, acupuncturists like myself, and homeopaths) is extremely difficult. Private practice is a difficult proposition especially for a new graduate of alternative medicine.

Naturopathic medicine, oriental medicine, ayurveda is pretty popular along the west coast. But I will say this about the schools offering these programs: The admissions standards are lax, in some cases completely ignored, by many of the alternative medicine schools cause they need to make money. It's getting to be a sad predicament cause these schools are popping up all over the country.

Oh and ricky williams is planning to be an ayurvedic practitioner and not an ND. But this does not mean he will get more access to cannabis sativa by any means...
Much of this is just not true.

"Oriental" medicine, naturopathic medicine, and homeopathy have exactly zero documented proof of effectiveness. Someone already mentioned this earlier, but a major tenet of homeopathy is that substance be diluted millions of millions of millions of times, thereby INCREASING their effectiveness. (?)

Similarly, the entire idea that using herbs is more natural than using drugs is a flawed one. The chemical compounds in herbs that are exerting physiological effects are no more or less "natural" than the purified compounds marketed as drugs. Biochemistry is biochemistry, regardless of the source. These tend to be the same people who cry out against genetically modified food, as though spraying antibiotics onto carrots was somehow more wholesome than incorporating the SAME antibiotic into the plant's genome to begin with.

Even chiropractic has a dubious history at best in this country. The idea that one can manipulate skull bones to improve cerebral rhythms? In a number of studies conducted (and available at the link provided below) by medical professionals, many chiropracters failed to identify clear symptoms of life threatening conditions. Worse still, a number of chiropractic manipulations have caused hemmorhagic strokes in otherwise healthy individuals.

The saddest part of this entire topic is the millions of people who are defrauded not only of their money but of their own well being by these charlatans every year. If nothing else, do your homework.

http://www.quackwatch.org

(before I'm attacked for using a biased source, the author of that website is a Columbia trained psychiatrist who has dedicated his professional career to helping people avoid health fraud)
 

spundit

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When did I ever say that "using herbs is more natural than using drugs"? i might be incorrect to say that NDs prescribing natural remedies might not be in essence "natural".

So what else is not true about my statement...

As far as my practice is concerned, I make sure that all my patients receive consul from their primary physicians first (MDs and DOs) before i even stick 1 needle. In my opinion, acupuncture works. However, i disagree with the theories behind how acupuncture works, especially from textbooks written in Mandarin Chinese thousands of years ago. Even with the controversy on how acupuncture works, there are MDs and DOs who are currently receiving certification in acupuncture and incoporating these techniques in their practice.

Let's not try to blame all alternative practitioners for defrauding consumers of money and well being. The main reason why alternative medicine has been popular in the US because many consumers feel that they are being defrauded with conventional medicine. Patients are defrauded by insurance companies with extremely false advertising claiming one thing then screwing patients with proper coverage. Patients are defrauded by charlatan doctors who perform treatments that are medically uneccessary. ABC news over the weekend reported a billion dollar insurance scam by medical practices performing medically uneccessary surgeries and procedures.
 

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Another point, oriental medicine is not the same as naturopathic medicine. Like it or not, the naturopaths claim the same heritage as us allopaths up to about the 19th century. Naturopathic medicine is a variation on European medicine. Oriental medicine comes from an entirely different belief / logic system. When we as allopaths / osteopaths say kidney we mean two very important organs located retroperitoneally. In chinese medicine, "kidneys" is metaphorical for a host of properties associated with the kidneys as part of a complete belief system. In the end just different.

BTW, there are parmacology studies showing the effect of accupuncture can ber reversed with naloxone. There are also some interesting studies using PET scans with accupuncture.

Besides, our patients are going to use CAM so we might as well get used to it.
 

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Would it be possible to prevent this thread from becoming a pissing match between practitioners of allopathic / osteopathic medicine and CAM? We all have our own opinions. It would probably be much more interesting to exchange opinions and ideas on this subject matter than to argue about whether or not our stethoscope is longer than their needles.
 

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Furrball said:
Would it be possible to prevent this thread from becoming a pissing match between practitioners of allopathic / osteopathic medicine and CAM? We all have our own opinions. It would probably be much more interesting to exchange opinions and ideas on this subject matter than to argue about whether or not our stethoscope is longer than their needles.
My point is that this isn't really an issue of opinion. One of these medical philosophies has scientific basis and empirical evidence for its effectiveness. The other is at best a placebo effect. For example:

Two scientists at the University of Heidelberg have developed a "fake needle" that may enable acupuncture researchers to perform better-designed controlled studies. The device is a needle with a blunt tip that moves freely within a copper handle. When the tip touches the skin, the patient feels a sensation similar to that of an acupuncture needle. At the same time, the visible part of the needle moves inside the handle so it appears to shorten as though penetrating the skin. When the device was tested on volunteers, none suspected that it had not penetrated the skin [1].

In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their "sham acupuncture" technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at the acupuncture point "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized [2].

[1] Streitberger K, Kleinhenz J. Introducing a placebo needle into acupuncture research. Lancet 352:364-365, 1998.
[2] Streitberger K et. al. Acupuncture compared to placebo-acupuncture for postoperative nausea and vomiting prophylaxis: A randomised placebo-controlled patient and observer blind trial. Anesthesia 59:142-149, 2004.


Until I see similar evidence published in reputable journals that proves the worthiness of alternative medicine, I think I have every right to be skeptical of accupuncture, naturopathy, and chiropractic to name just a few. My point is precisely that this should *not* be a pissing contest- medicine and what we call "alternative medicine" are not comparable approaches to patient care. One is based on science, the other on ancient and/or inaccurate myths about the functioning of the human body.

The existence of an opinion says nothing about its merit. Similarly, the fact that some people believe in alternative medicine doesn't mean that their opinions are as valid as those of people with empirical (not anecdotal) evidence for their beliefs in scientific medical care.
 

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Larsitron said:
Dr. Weil is an MD and a professor at the University of Arizona and is a proponent of integrative medicine. Some people disagree with him, but he's not a quack. I know ElKaptian wasn't calling him one, but I just feel like defending the guy as he's often a target for people who aim their sights at anything other than traditional allopathic medicine.
He's not a total quack, but he's borderline.

His attitude is: "natural therapies deserve less scientific scrutiny because they dont cause as many side effects as conventional medicine"

His mantra is a common theme of quacks. The only thing I will say in his defense is that he does support scientific testing. But he's wrong in his thinking that its OK to give less scientific scrutiny to "natural" products. The inherent flawed assumption he makes is that because something is "natural" is must have a de facto "plus" factor.
 

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NDs are not just "alternative" care providers. The idiot state legislature in Arizona gave them script access (i.e. they can write prescriptions just like an MD). I'm sure many of them dont use scripts that much, but still this is a turf war just like anything else.

If the NDs want to use quackery thats one thing. Its an entirely different thing when they get to associate their quackery with our profession of medicine.

I find the NDs in Arizona to be extremely hypocritical:

"Our natural therapies are better than your artificial poisons"

"We want script access! We take pharmacology courses so we deserve script access just as much as MD/DOs do!"