What will Pain Medicine Look Like Under Socialized Medicine?

[SSdoc33]

Relevant to this thread, single-payer, and the failure of socialist central planning in general. I love the example of Soviet farming. We are seeing it in health care with the rise of "the administrative class" and the direct employment of physicians. So much of what passes for "healthcare" is administrative circle-jerking:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/?fbclid=IwAR1LJFETHWEjIhVOr5TwSBIVFMD3VTphh-Og_r65jPHeKWGE-hSaxncXamg

What’s notable is that me:
A. These ideas didn’t work
B. After they were shown not to work, they rapidly spread

“But the High Modernists were pawns in service of a deeper motive: the centralized state wanted the world to be “legible”, ie arranged in a way that made it easy to monitor and control. An intact forest might be more productive than an evenly-spaced rectangular grid of Norway spruce, but it was harder to legislate rules for, or assess taxes on.”

“The state promoted the High Modernists’ platitudes about The Greater Good as cover, in order to implement the totalitarian schemes they wanted to implement anyway. The resulting experiments were usually failures by the humanitarian goals of the Modernists, but resounding successes by the command-and-control goals of the state. And so we gradually transitioned from systems that were messy but full of fine-tuned hidden order, to ones that were barely-functional but really easy to tax.”

“although well-educated technocrats may understand principles which give them some advantages in their domain, they are hopeless without the on-
the-ground experience of the people they are trying to serve, whose years of living in their environment and dealing with it every day have given them a deep practical knowledge which is difficult to codify.”

“But the Soviet version was tragedy. Instead of raising some money to start a giant farm and seeing it didn’t work, the USSR uprooted millions of peasants, forced them onto collective farms, and then watched as millions of people starved to death due to crop failure. What happened?
Scott really focuses on that claim (above) that farming was “90% engineering and only 10% agriculture”. He says that these huge farms all failed – despite being better-funded, higher-tech, and having access to the wisdom of the top agricultural scientists – exactly because this claim was false. Small farmers may not know much about agricultural science, but they know a lot about farming.”

while i am not about to bite on the drusso/ayn rand deep state propaganda, we are in deep sh$t if the government tries to run the whole show. it would take a massive mobilization and a well-oiled machine to have universal single-payer work well. i dont think it can be done in this political climate

i'd support a version of crappy and cheap "medicaid" for all, then you buy better insurance if you have the means. everybody with a cadillac plan for free is not practical

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

while i am not about to bite on the drusso/ayn rand deep state propaganda, we are in deep sh$t if the government tries to run the whole show. it would take a massive mobilization and a well-oiled machine to have universal single-payer work well. i dont think it can be done in this political climate

i'd support a version of crappy and cheap "medicaid" for all, then you buy better insurance if you have the means. everybody with a cadillac plan for free is not practical

You'll never sell that plan though, although for what its worth I think a 2-tier set up like that is inevitable. Americans are used to pretty good care on the whole. Hence why Bernie et al aren't selling Medicaid for all.

 

[drusso]

while i am not about to bite on the drusso/ayn rand deep state propaganda, we are in deep sh$t if the government tries to run the whole show. it would take a massive mobilization and a well-oiled machine to have universal single-payer work well. i dont think it can be done in this political climate

i'd support a version of crappy and cheap "medicaid" for all, then you buy better insurance if you have the means. everybody with a cadillac plan for free is not practical

You need to cultivate an appetite and appreciation for ideas across the ideological spectrum.

Approaching the Singularity of US Health Care Politics

We have lots of chronic, pre-existing conditions in health policymaking. We’re just doing a poor job in diagnosing and treating the most important ones.

www.aei.org

 

[Ducttape]

i find it fascinating how the conservative members always invoke stalin and Russia - which was a dictatorship.

your "appropriate analogy" is not, because you are touting totalitarian communist socialist ideas as the future model.

the only one who should be touting the benefits of this is the one politician who actually believes Putin when he says he is innocent.


look at Norway, Denmark or Sweden, models infinitely more appropriate than Mother Russia, and what liberals actually consider...

 

[hyperalgesia]

i'd support a version of crappy and cheap "medicaid" for all, then you buy better insurance if you have the means. everybody with a cadillac plan for free is not practical

I agree but politically people will freak out about this.
Medicare is slowly moving to all Advantage (hmo) plans. I believe it's 30% now. The government makes the cuts, the insurance company takes the heat. That's the dance.

 

[Doctodd]

same old conservative FAKE NEWS that democrats want to ban guns.

it is the conservatives who are completely brain washed. unfortunately, its hard for them to conceptualize that there is someone/something other than "me me me me".

democrats don't want to ban guns. they want gun control, and guns only in the hands of those responsible enough to use them.

fwiw, biden, sanders, harris, O'Rourke all acknowledge that they own guns. Clinton went duck hunting while prez. Obama did not own a gun.

Home - The Liberal Gun Club



please, reread your post. you actually equate Hitler's actions with those of socialists....

just wondering how you can say that with a straight face since you have been on the side of the 2+ year Russian Trump collusion hoax(recently debunked), and that Kavanaugh was a sexual predator in High School or something like that(Avennati indicted on too many counts to count)?

 

[drusso]

i find it fascinating how the conservative members always invoke stalin and Russia - which was a dictatorship.

your "appropriate analogy" is not, because you are touting totalitarian communist socialist ideas as the future model.

the only one who should be touting the benefits of this is the one politician who actually believes Putin when he says he is innocent.


look at Norway, Denmark or Sweden, models infinitely more appropriate than Mother Russia, and what liberals actually consider...

So-called Progressive ideas always hinge on state control and curtailing personal liberty. I grew up in the liberal movement. My mother is Swedish. I've spent time in Scandinavian countries. Their political and policy outcomes are grounded in different histories. Those methods can't/won't work here. It's a little thing called "American Exceptionalism."

 

[Ducttape]

Those methods can't/won't work here.

in the same manner, quoting and using Russia as a model will not work here either. so maybe its time to cease and desist with attempting scare tactics involving Russia.......

 

[SSdoc33]

So-called Progressive ideas always hinge on state control and curtailing personal liberty. I grew up in the liberal movement. My mother is Swedish. I've spent time in Scandinavian countries. Their political and policy outcomes are grounded in different histories. Those methods can't/won't work here. It's a little thing called "American Exceptionalism."

which is complete horshesh$t.

just because we are in america, we are somehow better?

that may be the ideal, but telling your kid they are the best at something, when they aren't is no way to go through life.

 

[drusso]

which is complete horshesh$t.

just because we are in america, we are somehow better?

that may be the ideal, but telling your kid they are the best at something, when they aren't is no way to go through life.

We are better because of what we believe in...the embodiment of classical liberal government & laissez-faire capitalism.

--I don't want to live in a country where I can't keep a firearm in my desk for protection.

--I don't want to live in a country where collectivist, controlling dogma micro-manages our behavior.

--I don't want to live in a country where the same level of E/M service is reimbursed differently based upon an organization's tax status.

These are core values all Americans can believe in.

 

[hyperalgesia]

i find it fascinating how the conservative members always invoke stalin and Russia - which was a dictatorship.

your "appropriate analogy" is not, because you are touting totalitarian communist socialist ideas as the future model.

look at Norway, Denmark or Sweden, models infinitely more appropriate than Mother Russia, and what liberals actually consider...

Well I find it fascinating that liberals always invoke tiny European countries when California is right here in the USA.

edit: oh, I mean for the feasibility of socialized medicine, not for totalitarianism

 

[drusso]

Those methods can't/won't work here.

in the same manner, quoting and using Russia as a model will not work here either. so maybe its time to cease and desist with attempting scare tactics involving Russia.......

Homepage 2023

Homepage 2023

www.socialistalternative.org

 

[drusso]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-video-1.5110684?fbclid=IwAR0RUtisH19s312CJMMh1wQ7B8bSbANVuV0bw6MJbuPWhH82PzjDnW0n2zs&sfns=mo

"In an emotional video posted to her Facebook page this week, Inez Rudderham said she went undiagnosed for two years because she couldn't access a family doctor. By the time she was diagnosed, her anal cancer had progressed to its third stage. "I dare you to take a meeting with me, and explain to me, and look into my eyes and tell me that there is no health-care crisis in my province of Nova Scotia," said Rudderham, 33, as she wiped away tears."

 

[lobelsteve]

- CPSNS

cpsnsphysiciansearch.com

It did take me over 5 minutes using google to find a way to search for docs in Nova Scotia. But here is a link to a list of 970 FPs.
More to the story.

 

[Ducttape]

interesting and there are clearly something that it not complete with the story.

but... i can definitely see this situation occurring to multiple lower class Americans before the ACA which you all so horribly despise, because those who could not afford any health insurance were in this exact same situation, relying on the ER for health care and diagnosis of complex medical conditions. ive met hundreds of them in the ER.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

interesting and there are clearly something that it not complete with the story.

but... i can definitely see this situation occurring to multiple lower class Americans before the ACA which you all so horribly despise, because those who could not afford any health insurance were in this exact same situation, relying on the ER for health care and diagnosis of complex medical conditions. ive met hundreds of them in the ER.

It shouldn't though. I'm a family doctor, we're not that expensive. Cash price to see me (and I'm hospital employed) is around $100. The local PP groups would be less.

 

[Blitz2006]

while i am not about to bite on the drusso/ayn rand deep state propaganda, we are in deep sh$t if the government tries to run the whole show. it would take a massive mobilization and a well-oiled machine to have universal single-payer work well. i dont think it can be done in this political climate

i'd support a version of crappy and cheap "medicaid" for all, then you buy better insurance if you have the means. everybody with a cadillac plan for free is not practical

100% agree. Two tier system is the way to go. Medicare for all, get the cadillac plan if you have the $.

Everyone compares healthcare to Canada, Scandinavia, UK, etc.

But its Australia, in my humble opinion, that has the best healthcare in the world. And it is two tiered (half socialized, half private).

 

[hyperalgesia]

100% agree. Two tier system is the way to go. Medicare for all, get the cadillac plan if you have the $.

Everyone compares healthcare to Canada, Scandinavia, UK, etc.

But its Australia, in my humble opinion, that has the best healthcare in the world. And it is two tiered (half socialized, half private).

You guys say this now but you will never be satisfied.

Can you provide a few examples of medical care that would not be covered by the "2nd tier" that is Medicare for All?

And can you explain why poor people are not entitled to this while rich people are?

 

[lobelsteve]

You guys say this now but you will never be satisfied.

Can you provide a few examples of medical care that would not be covered by the "2nd tier" that is Medicare for All?

And can you explain why poor people are not entitled to this while rich people are?

No one is entitled to this. You pay for it. Why don’t poor people get to drive Bentleys.

 

[SSdoc33]

You guys say this now but you will never be satisfied.

Can you provide a few examples of medical care that would not be covered by the "2nd tier" that is Medicare for All?

And can you explain why poor people are not entitled to this while rich people are?

already have, but again:

-have to wait for an MRI
-have to wait for elective surgeries
-generic drugs only

 

[deleted480308]

already have, but again:

-have to wait for an MRI
-have to wait for elective surgeries
-generic drugs only

that's a nice salespitch but you know good and well it will never happen that way

everyone will still demand the name brand and newest diabetes/copd/cancer meds and it will be "disparity" whenever the rich folks can have it and not the poor, so some politician will just offer to make the rich folks buy it for the poor

 

[Ducttape]

You guys say this now but you will never be satisfied.

Can you provide a few examples of medical care that would not be covered by the "2nd tier" that is Medicare for All?

And can you explain why poor people are not entitled to this while rich people are?

i think its hard to understand what they are or are not allowed - and what should be completely eliminated int te future - unless you have significant Medicaid patients.... most of the below listed already require extensive PA requirements.


most epidural injections. breast reduction. knee replacement (esp in morbidly obese). most knee arthroscopies outside of ACL repair. chronic opioid therapy for patients without palliative care/end of life diagnosis. spinal fusion outside of trauma or dynamic instability. most MRI scans outside of failed conservative therapy and red flag indicators.


PRP. stem cell.


i would argue for some limited interventional spine injections - ie lumbar facet RFA, SI injections, and TF for acute radic.

 

[SSdoc33]

i think its hard to understand what they are or are not allowed - and what should be completely eliminated int te future - unless you have significant Medicaid patients.... most of the below listed already require extensive PA requirements.


most epidural injections. breast reduction. knee replacement (esp in morbidly obese). most knee arthroscopies outside of ACL repair. chronic opioid therapy for patients without palliative care/end of life diagnosis. spinal fusion outside of trauma or dynamic instability. most MRI scans outside of failed conservative therapy and red flag indicators.


PRP. stem cell.


i would argue for some limited interventional spine injections - ie lumbar facet RFA, SI injections, and TF for acute radic.

not the case where i live. my medicaid gets anything it wants without pre-auths or waits. the hospital offers medicaid in my area superior care to many commercial plans

 

[hyperalgesia]

not the case where i live. my medicaid gets anything it wants without pre-auths or waits. the hospital offers medicaid in my area superior care to many commercial plans

Thats pretty good. So you're basically arguing for that to be a applied nationally?

I would rather people in other states look to their state govt and say, "why can't we make it like that?"

You seem generally satisfied with your state's system? Start making more laws and that could easily change for the worse.

 

[SSdoc33]

Thats pretty good. So you're basically arguing for that to be a applied nationally?

I would rather people in other states look to their state govt and say, "why can't we make it like that?"

You seem generally satisfied with your state's system? Start making more laws and that could easily change for the worse.

no, i think my state's medicaid system is BS and unfair. frankly, its TOO good. TOO much money is spent on it. why should a medicaid patient get an MRI the day after they come in, or get a TKA without a wait? they are generally non compliant, overweight, interpreter-needing, freeloaders (sometimes) who no shows half the time.

i dont know if it is lack of oversight or what, but it is a money sink.

"my" plan would basically over preventive care, emergency care, and specialty care when needed (with a wait). however, if we do go down this route, the percentage of specialists would go way down, and you would need to pay the PCPs more. again, you want the good insurance, you pay for it

 

[hyperalgesia]

no, i think my state's medicaid system is BS and unfair. frankly, its TOO good. TOO much money is spent on it. why should a medicaid patient get an MRI the day after they come in, or get a TKA without a wait? they are generally non compliant, overweight, interpreter-needing, freeloaders (sometimes) who no shows half the time.

i dont know if it is lack of oversight or what, but it is a money sink.

"my" plan would basically over preventive care, emergency care, and specialty care when needed (with a wait). however, if we do go down this route, the percentage of specialists would go way down, and you would need to pay the PCPs more. again, you want the good insurance, you pay for it

If your state govt can afford to treat healthcare as a "right", then I say go for it. Obviously will be some fraud but maybe they have it under control.

Those things you mentioned, MRI, TKA etc without a wait, are good things, even for the freeloader non-compliants.

 

[deleted480308]

If your state govt can afford to treat healthcare as a "right", then I say go for it. Obviously will be some fraud but maybe they have it under control.

Those things you mentioned, MRI, TKA etc without a wait, are good things, even for the freeloader non-compliants.

Nope. Freeloader anything is a bad idea.

 

[cowboydoc]

no, i think my state's medicaid system is BS and unfair. frankly, its TOO good. TOO much money is spent on it. why should a medicaid patient get an MRI the day after they come in, or get a TKA without a wait? they are generally non compliant, overweight, interpreter-needing, freeloaders (sometimes) who no shows half the time.

i dont know if it is lack of oversight or what, but it is a money sink.

"my" plan would basically over preventive care, emergency care, and specialty care when needed (with a wait). however, if we do go down this route, the percentage of specialists would go way down, and you would need to pay the PCPs more. again, you want the good insurance, you pay for it

Wait, did someone hack ssdoc's account?

 

[drusso]

Wait, did someone hack ssdoc's account?

He's been attending my Ayn Rand book club on Thursday nights...

 

[hyperalgesia]

Nope. Freeloader anything is a bad idea.

Do you object to states, other than your own, attempting support programs like this? You have a principled objection to helping "freeloaders"?

The era is fast approaching where many in the population will be redundant...

 

[deleted480308]

Do you object to states, other than your own, attempting support programs like this? You have a principled objection to helping "freeloaders"?

The era is fast approaching where many in the population will be redundant...

I object to govts doing it at all.

It’s perfectly appropriate as a voluntary charity role

 

[SSdoc33]

He's been attending my Ayn Rand book club on Thursday nights...

the horror.....

ill skip it, but my kids do need a thursday night activity. this could be their punishment for being a-holes....

 

[SSdoc33]

Do you object to states, other than your own, attempting support programs like this? You have a principled objection to helping "freeloaders"?

The era is fast approaching where many in the population will be redundant...

so what happens when massachusetts can give their medicaid state of the art cancer meds, but arkansas cant figure out how to prescribe HCTZ? all of these "power to the states" people dont seem to understand that you can drive 2 minutes and be in another state? same thing happens with state-by-state gun laws. wont work

 

[cowboydoc]

Some

so what happens when massachusetts can give their medicaid state of the art cancer meds, but arkansas cant figure out how to prescribe HCTZ? all of these "power to the states" people dont seem to understand that you can drive 2 minutes and be in another state? same thing happens with state-by-state gun laws. wont work

Some people can drive 2 minutes and be in another country. Is that justification for a NWO?

People can vote with their feet and move, though many factors affect that decision. Was it Gov. Perry that recruited people from NY and CA to Texas for good jobs and low taxes?

 

[hyperalgesia]

so what happens when massachusetts can give their medicaid state of the art cancer meds, but arkansas cant figure out how to prescribe HCTZ? all of these "power to the states" people dont seem to understand that you can drive 2 minutes and be in another state? same thing happens with state-by-state gun laws. wont work

What's happening now with your state? Are you seeing a catastrophic influx from neighboring states?

 

[SSdoc33]

What's happening now with your state? Are you seeing a catastrophic influx from neighboring states?

no

 

[cowboydoc]

the horror.....

ill skip it, but my kids do need a thursday night activity. this could be their punishment for being a-holes....

Reminds me... You mentioned Captain Underpants a bit ago. Surprised you let your kids read it after seeing this little gem.

 

[Doctodd]

Wait, did someone hack ssdoc's account?

i did

 

[SSdoc33]

Reminds me... You mentioned Captain Underpants a bit ago. Surprised you let your kids read it after seeing this little gem.

well played, cowboy, well played

 

[Blitz2006]

that's a nice salespitch but you know good and well it will never happen that way

everyone will still demand the name brand and newest diabetes/copd/cancer meds and it will be "disparity" whenever the rich folks can have it and not the poor, so some politician will just offer to make the rich folks buy it for the poor

Why, this is exactly what is happening in the UK with NHS. So SS-doc salespitch is very doable.

And the UK is ranked #1 in the world for healthcare:

Which countries have the best healthcare systems? | APRIL International

NHS holds on to top spot in healthcare survey

 

[hyperalgesia]

Why, this is exactly what is happening in the UK with NHS. So SS-doc salespitch is very doable.

And the UK is ranked #1 in the world for healthcare:

Which countries have the best healthcare systems? | APRIL International

NHS holds on to top spot in healthcare survey

SSdoc33 just told us Medicaid patients in his state can get next day MRI and TKA without a wait.

Is that available with NHS?

"Bloomberg uses life expectancy, healthcare cost as percentage of GDP and healthcare cost per capita to rank world's healthcare systems."

Life expectancy is what I would expect a lay person to use to measure "the healthcare system". Are the obesity and drug abuse epidemics in the US caused by our healthcare system? I don't think so.

 

[deleted480308]

Why, this is exactly what is happening in the UK with NHS. So SS-doc salespitch is very doable.

And the UK is ranked #1 in the world for healthcare:

Which countries have the best healthcare systems? | APRIL International

NHS holds on to top spot in healthcare survey

They don’t have better care. Sampling bias

 

[SSdoc33]

They don’t have better care. Sampling bias

they do, actually, by just about every metric.

now, are we fat, violent, and non-compliant? yes. but those negative attributes should be treated by the healthcare system. NRA makes doctors "Stay in our lane" and the USDA is not doing docs any favors..... but i digress.....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

they do, actually, by just about every metric.

now, are we fat, violent, and non-compliant? yes. but those negative attributes should be treated by the healthcare system. NRA makes doctors "Stay in our lane" and the USDA is not doing docs any favors..... but i digress.....

No, they really don't....

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0140673618309942-gr3a_lrg.jpg

I'll bold the ones where we beat/tie the UK:

Going from left to right:

TB - 100, perfect score

Diarrheal illness - 82, that one is confusing especially as its worse in a line from Missouri to Maine. I have no idea what to make of that.

LRI - 58. But you have to consider the risk factors for that. Diabetes (we win), CV disease (we win), drug resistance (we win, which was news to me but not surprising). The only major risk factor that Europe has worse than us is COPD and they do have us beat pretty handily there.

URI, diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, measles - 100 across the board

Maternal disorders - 81. If you control for our insane obesity rate, this gets much more in line with everyone else.

Neonatal - 67 but we discussed this previously. If you take out SIDS and abuse, we're on the same level.

Nonmelanoma skin cancer - 3rd place at 92

Breast cancer - 100

Cervical cancer - 86, which is better than most of Europe outside of Scandinavia.

Uterine cancer - 99

Colon cancer - 93 which is middle of the OECD countries

Testicular cancer - 96 which is upper half of OECD

Hodkin's - 100

Leukemia - 79, not sure why that one is low but its equal to Sweden, better than France, and WAY better than Germany (37). Huge variability on this one so there must be something weird going on with this one.

Rheumatic heart disease - 80, almost entirely the result of our largest in the world Indian immigrant population.

Ischemic heart disease - 66, see previous postings about diabetes and hypertension

Stroke - 78, same

Hypertensive heart disease - 55, but when you have lots of HTN this is the result

Chronic respiratory - 76, I think this is largely due to how unaffordable inhalers are which is definitely a problem with our system (that system being the EPA)

Peptic Ulcer - 95

Appendix - 100

Hernia - 99

Gallbladder - 94

Epilepsy - 100

Diabetes - 62, discussed ad nauseum

CKD - 54, result of diabetes and HTN

Congenital Heart - 71, but we have way more of this per capita than any country in Europe.

Adverse reaction to meds/treatment - 70. Not sure what to make of this one.


If you look at the total Index (far left column) we're only 1 point less than the UK.

Obesity and its complications are extensively medicalized. Problem is, none of our interventions really work all that well. Its very much a cultural thing which we can try and fight but will always have limited success.

 

[SSdoc33]

No, they really don't....

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0140673618309942-gr3a_lrg.jpg

I'll bold the ones where we beat/tie the UK:

Going from left to right:

TB - 100, perfect score

Diarrheal illness - 82, that one is confusing especially as its worse in a line from Missouri to Maine. I have no idea what to make of that.

LRI - 58. But you have to consider the risk factors for that. Diabetes (we win), CV disease (we win), drug resistance (we win, which was news to me but not surprising). The only major risk factor that Europe has worse than us is COPD and they do have us beat pretty handily there.

URI, diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, measles - 100 across the board

Maternal disorders - 81. If you control for our insane obesity rate, this gets much more in line with everyone else.

Neonatal - 67 but we discussed this previously. If you take out SIDS and abuse, we're on the same level.

Nonmelanoma skin cancer - 3rd place at 92

Breast cancer - 100

Cervical cancer - 86, which is better than most of Europe outside of Scandinavia.

Uterine cancer - 99

Colon cancer - 93 which is middle of the OECD countries

Testicular cancer - 96 which is upper half of OECD

Hodkin's - 100

Leukemia - 79, not sure why that one is low but its equal to Sweden, better than France, and WAY better than Germany (37). Huge variability on this one so there must be something weird going on with this one.

Rheumatic heart disease - 80, almost entirely the result of our largest in the world Indian immigrant population.

Ischemic heart disease - 66, see previous postings about diabetes and hypertension

Stroke - 78, same

Hypertensive heart disease - 55, but when you have lots of HTN this is the result

Chronic respiratory - 76, I think this is largely due to how unaffordable inhalers are which is definitely a problem with our system (that system being the EPA)

Peptic Ulcer - 95

Appendix - 100

Hernia - 99

Gallbladder - 94

Epilepsy - 100

Diabetes - 62, discussed ad nauseum

CKD - 54, result of diabetes and HTN

Congenital Heart - 71, but we have way more of this per capita than any country in Europe.

Adverse reaction to meds/treatment - 70. Not sure what to make of this one.


If you look at the total Index (far left column) we're only 1 point less than the UK.

Obesity and its complications are extensively medicalized. Problem is, none of our interventions really work all that well. Its very much a cultural thing which we can try and fight but will always have limited success.

great spreadsheet. where the hell is it from? id love to did into the data, but this just appears to be numbers with no annotations.

 

[hyperalgesia]

they do, actually, by just about every metric.

now, are we fat, violent, and non-compliant? yes. but those negative attributes should be treated by the healthcare system. NRA makes doctors "Stay in our lane" and the USDA is not doing docs any favors..... but i digress.....

Waa? These are cultural attributes. The point is going to Medicare for all or nhs system won't change our life expectancy.

I would even argue that satisfaction surveys might not be accurate because we are an entitled bunch in America.

I've said it before, allow more flexibility and then compare state systems within America to make the best system.

 

[deleted480308]

they do, actually, by just about every metric.

now, are we fat, violent, and non-compliant? yes. but those negative attributes should be treated by the healthcare system. NRA makes doctors "Stay in our lane" and the USDA is not doing docs any favors..... but i digress.....

The NRA was right, activist doctors should be dealing with health not trying to mandate away self defense rights.

And no. You’re wrong. Their health care isn’t actually uniformly better than ours

 

[SSdoc33]

The NRA was right, activist doctors should be dealing with health not trying to mandate away self defense rights.

And no. You’re wrong. Their health care isn’t actually uniformly better than ours

well, if professional blogger sb247 says so, it must be true. post your data or STFU. blitz's links are pretty incontovertible, although im sure you will try,

 

[SSdoc33]

The NRA was right, activist doctors should be dealing with health not trying to mandate away self defense rights.

last time i checked, treating a GSW was "dealing with health"

 

[lonelobo]

The NRA was right, activist doctors should be dealing with health not trying to mandate away self defense rights.

And no. You’re wrong. Their health care isn’t actually uniformly better than ours

Spend more time in your residency and less time on this board....For the patients sake