Where to go for undergrad?

[Cnc9199]

hi guys this is my first post and idk if I'm posting this right but I'm a senior in high school and I live in Pennsylvania. I got accepted into West Chester University's pre med program with a biochem major and the University of Pittsburgh with a neuroscience major. I'm going to be a neurosurgeon and I'm wondering which one would be better for undergrad if I'm planning to go to medical school? All opinions welcome! Thanks!

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[Astra]

Go where its cheapest, and easiest. Not having student loans and having a super high GPA will make life easier.

 

[efle]

I'm going to be a neurosurgeon

Oh boy

which one would be better for undergrad if I'm planning to go to medical school?

How much does each cost? Is one significantly closer to family/home? If these things aren't deciding factors for you, I'd go to Pitt. They will have more useful resources to a premed (they are larger and have a med school and hospital system, so better research and volunteering and clinical experience opportunities). The typical student is also generally stronger academically and they have a lot of applicants to MD school every year, so you will likely be better advised and one of several hundred going through the premed route instead of one of a handful.

 

[pioneer22]

hi guys this is my first post and idk if I'm posting this right but I'm a senior in high school and I live in Pennsylvania. I got accepted into West Chester University's pre med program with a biochem major and the University of Pittsburgh with a neuroscience major. I'm going to be a neurosurgeon and I'm wondering which one would be better for undergrad if I'm planning to go to medical school? All opinions welcome! Thanks!

Choose a college before you declare "being a neurosurgeon"

 

[Superman69]

Choose a college before you declare "being a neurosurgeon"

Quit bashing on him. Let the man strive for his goals.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Quit bashing on him. Let the man strive for his goals.

Worrying about doing well in college and being one of the 40% who gets accepted to medical school is a prereq to being a neurosurgeon. Probably should focus on that first.

 

[sullen-burger]

Worrying about doing well in college and being one of the 40% who gets accepted to medical school is a prereq to being a neurosurgeon. Probably should focus on that first.

I agree 100% but I would say that it's the blind optimism of youth that gives them dreams.

OP has a few years yet before reality kicks in. OP: Go to the school where you'll be happy.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree 100% but I would say that it's the blind optimism of youth that gives them dreams.

OP has a few years yet before reality kicks in. OP: Go to the school where you'll be happy.

Keep the optimism. Just keep it to yourself. No one wants to hang around someone who tells people he's going to be a neurosurgeon freshman year of college.

 

[sullen-burger]

Keep the optimism. Just keep it to yourself. No one wants to hang around someone who tells people he's going to be a neurosurgeon freshman year of college.

No argument there.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Go to the school you think you'll be happiest. And I wouldn't necessarily get too set on what specialty you're going into before getting into medical school - plenty of time and experience yet to be had and you might find that you absolutely love pediatrics or urology or radiology.

 

[Daodejing]

hi guys this is my first post and...I'm going to be a neurosurgeon

you're giving me a berry bad aneurysm. hopefully you can tell me how you plan to clip it, or what the guidelines are to intervene if at all.

don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Go to the school you think you'll be happiest. And I wouldn't necessarily get too set on what specialty you're going into before getting into medical school - plenty of time and experience yet to be had and you might find that you absolutely love pediatrics or urology or radiology.

Especially after you see your board scores.

 

[benjamin94559]

Go to Pitt unless the price is prohibitive. Pitt has its own med school which is well ranked and you'll have much more opportunities for research, networking, clinical exposure and what have you then you will at West Chester (overall not just because of the med school). Also the neuro department is really good and friendly.

 

[Sjlucas15]

First off, make sure your college is a well known school (credentials/placement into medical schools) Although a good GPA is what gets your foot in the door, you want to make sure the college isn't just an ordinary school. Some people think GPA is everything but it really isn't. Another word of advice, make sure you focus on getting good grades and working on getting medical school before you 1- earn a residency in surgery and 2-earn a fellowship in neurosurgery. That is like a government major saying "I'm going to be president".

 

[gyngyn]

First off, make sure your college is a well known school (credentials/placement into medical schools) Although a good GPA is what gets your foot in the door, you want to make sure the college isn't just an ordinary school. Some people think GPA is everything but it really isn't. Another word of advice, make sure you focus on getting good grades and working on getting medical school before you 1- earn a residency in surgery and 2-earn a fellowship in neurosurgery. That is like a government major saying "I'm going to be president".

Neurosurgery is not a fellowship of G-Surg. It has a unique residency.

 

[Astra]

Some people think GPA is everything but it really isn't.

Except it is. 4.0 at an unknown school will always be favored over a 3.6 at a known school.

 

[ciestar]

OP, I am just going to say to go where you think is best for you. If cost is an issue, West Chester is insanely cheaper and in a nice area that isnt the typical PA middle of nowhere. Pitt obviously has its own accolades, but go where you think you'll do best, not just with school but overall.

 

[Lucca]

If this is the case then what's the incentive of challenging yourself? Why not go to the easiest school in your state and get the 4.0. This makes zero sense.

There has to be a bias towards better known and prestigious schools by adcoms. The only people denying it are probably the ones who are going to the easiest schools in the country and convincing themselves otherwise.

You can't tell me a 3.6 at UChicago (a heavy grade deflating school) is worth less than a school that gives everyone 4.0s. Pure nonsense.

You can say whatever you want but the person you are quoting is right. A 3.6 from UChicago will go places partly on the school rep but id rather be applying from my state school with a 4.0 and the same mcat score

Preemptively @efle

 

[NeuResurgens]

If this is the case then what's the incentive of challenging yourself? Why not go to the easiest school in your state and get the 4.0. This makes zero sense.

There has to be a bias towards better known and prestigious schools by adcoms. The only people denying it are probably the ones who are going to the easiest schools in the country and convincing themselves otherwise.

You can't tell me a 3.6 at UChicago (a heavy grade deflating school) is worth less than a school that gives everyone 4.0s. Pure nonsense.

It's more nuanced. If two applicants both have a 3.83, but applicant A goes to a well known school and applicant B goes to a lesser known school, applicant A probably gets favored. The bias towards well known schools likely applies within a 0.5 GPA point difference (pure guess) when compared to lesser known schools. Outside ~this range, I think the higher GPA gets favored. That's at least my impression of the process.

 

[Astra]

If this is the case then what's the incentive of challenging yourself? Why not go to the easiest school in your state and get the 4.0. This makes zero sense.

There isn't a point of challenging yourself. That's the sad reality. Look up past threads on this topic.

There has to be a bias towards better known and prestigious schools by adcoms.

There might be SOME bias but not enough to outweigh 3.6 vs 4.0.

The only people denying it are probably the ones who are going to the easiest schools in the country and convincing themselves otherwise.

I went to an easy state school and graduated with a near 4.0. I have had several interviews and several acceptances at great schools.

You can't tell me a 3.6 at UChicago (a heavy grade deflating school) is worth less than a school that gives everyone 4.0s. Pure nonsense.

I can and I will because I know tons of smart people who's GPA got crushed at hard schools when they could've gotten 4.0's at our state school. I know it sucks but that's how the system is.

 

[Lawpy]

Except it is. 4.0 at an unknown school will always be favored over a 3.6 at a known school.

If this is the case then what's the incentive of challenging yourself? Why not go to the easiest school in your state and get the 4.0. This makes zero sense.

There has to be a bias towards better known and prestigious schools by adcoms. The only people denying it are probably the ones who are going to the easiest schools in the country and convincing themselves otherwise.

You can't tell me a 3.6 at UChicago (a heavy grade deflating school) is worth less than a school that gives everyone 4.0s. Pure nonsense.

You can say whatever you want but the person you are quoting is right. A 3.6 from UChicago will go places partly on the school rep but id rather be applying from my state school with a 4.0 and the same mcat score

Preemptively @efle

It's more nuanced. If two applicants both have a 3.83, but applicant A goes to a well known school and applicant B goes to a lesser known school, applicant A probably gets favored. The bias towards well known schools likely applies within a 0.5 GPA point difference (pure guess) when compared to lesser known schools. Outside ~this range, I think the higher GPA gets favored. That's at least my impression of the process.

i think undergrad selectivity plays a small but necessary role in GPA significance. it's difficult to directly compare Student A with a 3.6 from a university that has extremely low acceptance rate with Student B with a 4.0 from a university that has a near 100% acceptance rate. why? because the student pool is completely different in both cases, and it's a lot harder to get A's in classes where the average student is likely someone with 2200+ SAT scores and valedictorians/salutatorians in high school.

MCAT matters yes, and i bet Student A is more likely to do well on the MCAT than Student B. but if Student B can excel in the MCAT, I think they have a good chance in getting into many medical schools... although not necessarily a better chance than Student A on GPA alone.

 

[NeuResurgens]

@Lucca @Astra118 @UNMedGa is there a reason why the medical schools in my state are dominated by people from top schools? Is it because the people at those schools are generally better applicants?

That is a lot of the reason. People with aptitude often attend top colleges. Also, Ivies are more prone to grade inflation than one might think, so I've heard.

 

[NeuResurgens]

i think undergrad selectivity plays a small but necessary role in GPA significance. it's difficult to directly compare Student A with a 3.6 from a university that has extremely low acceptance rate with Student B with a 4.0 from a university that has a near 100% acceptance rate. why? because the student pool is completely different in both cases, and it's a lot harder to get A's in classes where the average student is likely someone with 2200+ SAT scores and valedictorians/salutatorians in high school.

MCAT matters yes, and i bet Student A is more likely to do well on the MCAT than Student B. but if Student B can excel in the MCAT, I think they have a good chance in getting into many medical schools... although not necessarily a better chance than Student A on GPA alone.

Yes, it's very difficult to judge the exact weight selectivity of undergrad carries when each case is so different. Adcoms admitted in the AAMC survey that it matters, but it's difficult to say exactly how much.

 

[Astra]

@Lucca @Astra118 @UNMedGa is there a reason why the medical schools in my state are dominated by people from top schools? Is it because the people at those schools are generally better applicants?

Certain top schools have grade inflation. Others have grade deflation. If you want to know if this is the reason, look at which top schools those students are from and see if those schools are all grade inflating.

Another reason is, people from top schools might want to stay in your state. A good number of top schools are in the Northeast. If they get accepted to a med school in that area, they might want to stay there vs going out to the midwest or the south.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I don't feel like putting in the effort to think of them. Trust me though. GPA is king.


https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/2017mcatguide.pdf

On page 9, you'll see that GPA is at the highest importance category whereas selectivity of undergraduate institution is at the lowest importance rating

 

[Lawpy]

Yes, it's very difficult to judge the exact weight selectivity of undergrad carries when each case is so different. Adcoms admitted in the AAMC survey that it matters, but it's difficult to say exactly how much.

It's probably a few admission points or so.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I don't feel like putting in the effort to think of them. Trust me though. GPA is king.

I don't think this is really all that true, especially since many applicants can get into many medical schools (including top tiers) with below 3.5 GPA. Is it difficult? Of course, but I think GPA trends matter a lot more than GPA alone. And so someone with a 3.4 overall GPA but last 2-3 years of 4.0 performance will likely be looked at a positive light. Especially if they can supplement that with a strong MCAT score.

Although it's clear that the best outcome is high GPA/high MCAT.

 

[Astra]

I don't think this is really all that true, especially since many applicants can get into many medical schools (including top tiers) with below 3.5 GPA. Is it difficult? Of course, but I think GPA trends matter a lot more than GPA alone. And so someone with a 3.4 overall GPA but last 2-3 years of 4.0 performance will likely be looked at a positive light. Especially if they can supplement that with a strong MCAT score.

Although it's clear that the best outcome is high GPA/high MCAT.

I agree with your post completely. I guess I should've been most specific. A significantly higher GPA at a less reputable undergrad will usually outweigh a mediocre GPA at a top school, excluding major GPA trends.

 

[Lucca]

@Lucca @Astra118 @UNMedGa is there a reason why the medical schools in my state are dominated by people from top schools? Is it because the people at those schools are generally better applicants?

Top medical schools will be especially dominated by people from top schools, but outside of a very small club of medical schools, undergraduate prestige probably hardly registers. If you go to a rigorous undergrad you are more likely to do better on the mcat. @efle always posts a chart that showed WashU premeds with a 3.3/4 GPA were averaging a 36 on the MCAT and, of course, that made them plenty competitive for medical schools beyond simply having the WashU name on their diploma. Harvard undergrads, on the other hand, are even luckier because they go to the Brandiest-Brand name school where the average grade given out in every class is an A-.

 

[summergirl]

First off, make sure your college is a well known school (credentials/placement into medical schools) Although a good GPA is what gets your foot in the door, you want to make sure the college isn't just an ordinary school. Some people think GPA is everything but it really isn't. Another word of advice, make sure you focus on getting good grades and working on getting medical school before you 1- earn a residency in surgery and 2-earn a fellowship in neurosurgery. That is like a government major saying "I'm going to be president".

If this is the case then what's the incentive of challenging yourself? Why not go to the easiest school in your state and get the 4.0. This makes zero sense.

There has to be a bias towards better known and prestigious schools by adcoms. The only people denying it are probably the ones who are going to the easiest schools in the country and convincing themselves otherwise.

You can't tell me a 3.6 at UChicago (a heavy grade deflating school) is worth less than a school that gives everyone 4.0s. Pure nonsense.

Clearly neither of you are applying with a 3.6 from a top school.

 

[efle]

The AAMC survey from this year either had the result narrowly miss significance or else private schools became a little less honest about being elitist. The survey two years prior:

And the dataset I graphed out that Lucca is talking about:

Does school selectivity matter? To some places, yes. Is caring where someone went to undergrad justified? In my opinion, absolutely. Do schools care about it enough to make up for a lower GPA? Not even close, you are much better off with a 3.9 at U of State than a 3.3 at Hopkins even if MCAT performance suggests they are just as capable.

 

[mavric1298]

Think of it this way - a school is going to go through 8-10,000 applications, if not more. Do you really think they are going to take the time to see "hmmm well joe went to university of Washington, let me look at my list and see how prestigious it is, and if they grade deflate?

No. This has been covered before, and with a few exceptions they don't care what school. It's just like the same argument about majors "well a major in molecular engineering is a lot harder than English, so my 3.6 should look better an English 3.9!"

Again nope. They don't care. They care more than anything about stats. My own story can attest to that and while schools talk about holistic review and grade trends, at the end of the day flat out gpa matters a whole lot.


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[Turkishking]

Oh boy



How much does each cost? Is one significantly closer to family/home? If these things aren't deciding factors for you, I'd go to Pitt. They will have more useful resources to a premed (they are larger and have a med school and hospital system, so better research and volunteering and clinical experience opportunities). The typical student is also generally stronger academically and they have a lot of applicants to MD school every year, so you will likely be better advised and one of several hundred going through the premed route instead of one of a handful.

I remember talking with a pre-med during the first day of my freshman year. He said he was going to be a neurosurgeon.. Now he's not pre-med lol

 

[ToodleLoo22]

Clearly neither of you are applying with a 3.6 from a top school.

Unfortunately when applying to medical school it appears that going for the 4.0 at the easiest school wins. This concerns me because non grade deflating school's students are penalized when med school apps are screened and these students are likely the best people to take care of patients because their intelligence is what got them into that top school in the first place.

 

[Lawpy]

Unfortunately when applying to medical school it appears that going for the 4.0 at the easiest school wins. This concerns me because non grade deflating school's students are penalized when med school apps are screened and these students are likely the best people to take care of patients because their intelligence is what got them into that top school in the first place.

This is why GPA trends and MCAT scores matter. Someone with a sub-3.5 GPA at a very selective, grade-deflating university can demonstrate their intelligence by crushing the MCAT with a 523+. And i bet such an applicant has a better chance crushing the MCAT than someone who coasted by with a 4.0 at an easy, hardly selective, grade-inflating university.

 

[Papa Oso]

I'm going to be a neurosurgeon

Not to be dishearten you, but there is a 99.9999999% chance of that changing. I wouldn't go into Undergrad with the clear cut intent of solely this.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Moving to hSDN

 

[Sjlucas15]

Clearly neither of you are applying with a 3.6 from a top school.

Actually I am graduating with a GPA >3.6 from one of the top schools in the midwest, but then again, it isn't any of your concern. The average GPA of accepted medical students from my undergrad college in 2015 was 3.45. When asked what set them apart from the rest of the general population, most of the students said their "above average MCAT and research opportunities that our institution provided". Like I said earlier, GPA gets your foot in the door and provides ADCOMS with a visualization of how good of a student you are. Your EC/Clinical experience is what can set you apart from the rest of the applicants with the same GPA/MCAT.

 

[Sjlucas15]

Except it is. 4.0 at an unknown school will always be favored over a 3.6 at a known school.

To some extent, I agree. But sacrificing a 3.6GPA Biochemistry major for a 4.0 Business major at a known party school seems absurd to me. Do the major you want at the school you want. Don't sacrifice your undergraduate for just a couple GPA points. I just feel people put too much emphasis on GPA instead of the rest of their application.

 

[Sjlucas15]

Neurosurgery is not a fellowship of G-Surg. It has a unique residency.

My bad. I figured you still had to do a fellowship in neurosurgery since it is very specialized?

 

[Astra]

I just feel people put too much emphasis on GPA instead of the rest of their application.

I feel even more sorry for people who didn't put enough emphasis on GPA. Tons of smart people get subpar GPA's due to their major, school being really hard when they could've gotten a 4.0

GPA is forever. You can always take a gap year to boost EC's.

 

[summergirl]

Actually I am graduating with a GPA >3.6 from one of the top schools in the midwest, but then again, it isn't any of your concern. The average GPA of accepted medical students from my undergrad college in 2015 was 3.45. When asked what set them apart from the rest of the general population, most of the students said their "above average MCAT and research opportunities that our institution provided". Like I said earlier, GPA gets your foot in the door and provides ADCOMS with a visualization of how good of a student you are. Your EC/Clinical experience is what can set you apart from the rest of the applicants with the same GPA/MCAT.

Read my post again. You completely missed the point. A 3.8 is also >3.6 but that completely negates the point. The point is, with everything else being equal, the person with 4.0 from a no name school wins over the person with a 3.6 from a great school. And of course if you asked the students accepted with a 3.45 they are going to tell you ECs and MCATs set them apart, because how else were they able to get in given their low GPA? Why don't you try asking the people who were rejected with a 3.45? See what they tell you about why they were rejected. You have not experienced the application process with a 3.6 GPA. Why are you refusing to see the sad truth when several accepted medical students who have personally been through this process already told you?

 

[Sjlucas15]

Read my post again. You completely missed the point. A 3.8 is also >3.6 but that completely negates the point. The point is, with everything else being equal, the person with 4.0 from a no name school wins over the person with a 3.6 from a great school. And of course if you asked the students accepted with a 3.45 they are going to tell you ECs and MCATs set them apart, because how else were they able to get in given their low GPA? Why don't you try asking the people who were rejected with a 3.45? See what they tell you about why they were rejected. You have not experienced the application process with a 3.6 GPA. Why are you refusing to see the sad truth when several accepted medical students who have personally been through this process already told you?

Oh my bad! I honestly read your post wrong. I thought you were referring to the fact that GPA trumps everything else. Referring to the study the school did, they were trying to compare our average GPA to other schools around the midwest to see if there is a preference to the undergrad institution, which there clearly was. I only know from my POV within the midwest and many medical schools in the areas clearly show "favorites" to specific undergraduate schools.

 

[ToodleLoo22]

To some extent, I agree. But sacrificing a 3.6GPA Biochemistry major for a 4.0 Business major at a known party school seems absurd to me. Do the major you want at the school you want. Don't sacrifice your undergraduate for just a couple GPA points. I just feel people put too much emphasis on GPA instead of the rest of their application.

Big mistake. You have to go for the gpa...its stupid and contradicary to a great education, but the screening tools used will screen you out if you don't get the gpa and mcat score.

 

[mavric1298]

I'll push back a little on that last post, but for a different reason; choosing a place where you will be happy and a major you will enjoy often increases the chances you will do well - with limitations obviously - so that's something that needs to be weighed....as well as do you think your undergrad classes will also help you be a successful medical student. Obiviously being a bio/neuro/etc major isn't in the slightest required, but don't discount having exposure to material as a net positive in the long run.

With that said - the honest truth is do whatever major you think you will get the best grades in. I completly agree with whoever said EC's are much easier to fix. Speaking as someone who did grade repair for classes I took over 12 years ago that I failed (didn't drop the classes and stopped going for a term at community college while also in highschool), I can 100% say that GPA can and will haunt you if you don't take it serious. Without being conceited, I have what could be considered amazing EC's, a 79th percentile MCAT, 3.8 over the last 160ish credits (all science save 2 classes - molecular/cell/developmental bio major) since I went back to school at one of the top state schools in the country...and I got 0 II's last cycle, 2 MD II's this cycle (waiting to hear back), and accepted to DO so far. I've been lucky enough to know several ADCOMs, and was able to have them look at my apps to give me pointers since I wasn't applying to their schools, and basically was told that it was exclusively my AMCAS GPA, that held me back. From 12 years ago. From community college. While I was still in highschool. Think about that for a moment


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[OKILUS]

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[KingofMaskedSinger]

I also got into University of Pittsburgh as a neuroscience major! Which major are you more interested in? I don't know about West Chester, but Pitt is a really good school for pre-med.


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[Cnc9199]

I also got into University of Pittsburgh as a neuroscience major! Which major are you more interested in? I don't know about West Chester, but Pitt is a really good school for pre-med.


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Congrats! and definitely more interested in neuroscience. I think Pitt is the way to go haha

 

[flapjack3d]

pitt. no contest. i went the easy route and regret it

 

[dr.d00m]

hi guys this is my first post and idk if I'm posting this right but I'm a senior in high school and I live in Pennsylvania. I got accepted into West Chester University's pre med program with a biochem major and the University of Pittsburgh with a neuroscience major. I'm going to be a neurosurgeon and I'm wondering which one would be better for undergrad if I'm planning to go to medical school? All opinions welcome! Thanks!

That's a mighty bold claim there, young one

 

[FrugalMuscle]

1. Cheapest school
2. Choose an interesting major where you can DESTROY your competition (ie, 4.0 gpa)
3. Study your butt off and ace the MCAT