Which schools are entirely PBL?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
PBL is inherently teaching oneself. That is the whole point of itYOU read the chapters, YOU do all the work, and a 'facilitator' nudges you in the right direction IF you are off the path. Don't kid yourself that you aren't teaching yourself the material. It is nearly impossible to go sit in on a lecture because they may or may not be in the same spot your group is, and if you're having trouble your only options are get a classmate to explain it, or hope that a prof has time to meet with you and help you out... I was specifically told at Bradenton if you are a slow reader or have trouble learning from books you would NOT find much success in the PBL pathway... and you would not have much in the way of additional resources...

Do I 'hate' LECOM? No, but I did point out that if you're choosing LDP, there are things you should know first. Like the no food/water rule. It is ridiculous to expect that all people can or should abide by this, it is actually medically unsound as it has been proven that snacking on healthy snacks many times per day is a healthier option than eating 2-3x only. So a med school cares more about keeping it's chairs clean than it's students health? Maybe... or keeping a certain image up for certain...

How is that not different than any other school? You will have to read anywhere you go. If you have any problem with material, you can go to any faculty for clarification.
The rules they have are there to prepare you for your rotations. In the hospital you will have to have a badge, will have to be in dress code, wont be able to eat anywhere but the cafeteria/lounge. Honestly its time for people to grow up. This isn't college anymore, you are in professional school. Might want to act like it. Medicine is very much an old boys club. You'd be suprised at how much something as little as appearance/dressing professionally affects patients and attendings.
SBB i applaud you for figuring out PBL is not for you. PBL does not work for everyone. Some people need structure. But dont come on here acting like you know everything about LECOM because you had an interview. Their is a lot of false info about Lecom that gets started by disgruntled people. Take them with a grain of salt.
 
How is that not different than any other school? You will have to read anywhere you go. If you have any problem with material, you can go to any faculty for clarification.
The rules they have are there to prepare you for your rotations. In the hospital you will have to have a badge, will have to be in dress code, wont be able to eat anywhere but the cafeteria/lounge. Honestly its time for people to grow up. This isn't college anymore, you are in professional school. Might want to act like it. Medicine is very much an old boys club. You'd be suprised at how much something as little as appearance/dressing professionally affects patients and attendings.
SBB i applaud you for figuring out PBL is not for you. PBL does not work for everyone. Some people need structure. But dont come on here acting like you know everything about LECOM because you had an interview. Their is a lot of false info about Lecom that gets started by disgruntled people. Take them with a grain of salt.

I have been trying to figure out who you are and I have a few guesses but nothing concrete. Hopefully I can guess before 3rd year.
 
SUMMARY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THIS POST:

I'm explaining what LECOM's PBL is because there seems to be some debate above. I am not advocating or criticizing it, just laying out the daily process. If you have no interest, skip my post!

Yeah it's not 30 chapters a day although 30 chapters a test sounds about right depending on page length. At LECOM, when you get up and running (after anatomy, embryo, histo, etc etc) it comes out to about 40 pages a day (or 80 pages for each meeting which occurs every other day).

To clarify LECOM's PBL. Basically you're looking at an episode of House. You're given a chief complaint (they can be very vague as in "my leg hurts" or my "bite is off") and one person is assigned as the "physician." This person does their best to take a thorough history of the patient through a mock interview (another student has a "script" of what to say). Once that's done, everyone contributes a diagnosis that they think is reasonable and it goes "on the board" House style. You're then given a write up of the patient's physical (not reasonable to actually do one in the room, obviously) and you adjust your thoughts/ddx based on that.

After that it's really a session of "hey if he's feeling this and his physical showed this, we should test his x." The facilitator in the room will end up handing out the results of these "tests" and you interpret them and so on and so forth until you reach the conclusion of the case.

The cases are based on real cases from the local area.

After you reach the end or run out of time, you literally choose your own reading. You're given a page minimum and some requirements such as: must be entire headings, minimum 7 page runs, etc. So if you had a case about a guy who had pneumonia maybe you'd pick the lung physio chapters to learn the lungs. Then maybe you'd throw some path about respiratory infections in there. If it was a case of PKU maybe you throw some biochem in there.

Your exams are based on these readings plus required assigned readings from the faculty. These are based on the cases and refer to the lab tests and some other stuff presented in the case that they think is specifically important. Each group actually gets its own exam based on what it chose.

I was nervous about us "picking" our readings but you'd be amazed at how often groups choose damn near the exact same readings. The faculty has a goal in mind with each case and apparently it works.

Anyway, in the end the challenge of PBL is that your knowledge comes from your reading. To me, that's not a problem because I don't absorb info from a lecture; I do much better being able to chill in my apartment with some coffee and read through chapters myself. Even in past lectures I'd end up doing this so I figured I'd cut out the middle man.

I don't think PBL is better than LDP, just better for people like me. Some people can look at slides and memorize the material in a heartbeat. For them LDP is probably sweet.

As for the board scores, my guess is that we do so much reading and preparing on our own that prepping for the boards is kinda just like studying for another exam. Maybe not but that's just my guess (haven't taken boards...that's for next year).
Thank you for your PBL description! This program sounds just like what I'm looking for! Really wish LECOM had a campus on the west coast... Bradenton is just so humid!!
 
Do I 'hate' LECOM? No, but I did point out that if you're choosing LDP, there are things you should know first. Like the no food/water rule. It is ridiculous to expect that all people can or should abide by this, it is actually medically unsound as it has been proven that snacking on healthy snacks many times per day is a healthier option than eating 2-3x only. So a med school cares more about keeping it's chairs clean than it's students health? Maybe... or keeping a certain image up for certain...

What's ridiculous is your argument. The classes are 50 minutes long with a break between so you can go to the bathroom, or get water, or run grab a bite. But, because they don't have food and drunk spilled all over the place the cost of maintenance and replacement is much lower. That's one reason why tuition is lower than any other private school. If you can't handle waiting 50 minutes for food and water, then you don't have to go there. Its that simple. Many of us have the ability to follow the rules without bitching about them. Its something you should try to learn in life. It will make life easier.

As for PBL, as so many have commneted here, students do better on boards over all with PBL because they learn medicine in a clinical context and are tested that way as well. They don't learn micro and physio and biochem separately and, all of a sudden, come to boards and have to synthesize this information they have learned and put it into a clinical context. Every PBL test is just like COMLEX, with a variety of cases and all the subjects mixed into clinical scenarios. Actually, our PBL tests were a LOT like COMLEX-- just harder. If you could pass them, then there's virtually no way you could fail your boards.

You have to do a lot of reading on your own in PBL, but what reading the textbooks does is teaches you the concepts of how things work, rather than memorizing a thousand bullet points from a powerpoint lecture. You learn to read a lot of outside material as well and develop your own sources for things. You become very familiar with a lot of the databases and resources you will be using later in residency, and then as an attending.

I a few years you will be sitting in morning report as a resident, hearing about the cases from the night before and you will find out it is just like PBL all over again. Someone will be presenting a case and you'll have a discussion of differentials and start asking what the lab values were. Someone will present from a study or journal on the same type of illness, and you'll all get "homework" to study up on this problem before tomorrow-- in between your admissions, discharges, rounding, etc.

This is REAL doctors, with medical degrees, learning about medicine from senior residents and attendings. And guess what? It's done just like PBL.

That said, a lot of people are not cut out for PBL. They don't have the discipline. And, schools like LECOM are good at weeding those people out. Many people just "self-select" themselves out of it from the beginning. If you don't think it's for you, then don't do it. But the facts here are that it works. Plain and simple.
 
What's ridiculous is your argument. The classes are 50 minutes long with a break between so you can go to the bathroom, or get water, or run grab a bite. But, because they don't have food and drunk spilled all over the place the cost of maintenance and replacement is much lower. That's one reason why tuition is lower than any other private school. If you can't handle waiting 50 minutes for food and water, then you don't have to go there. Its that simple. Many of us have the ability to follow the rules without bitching about them. Its something you should try to learn in life. It will make life easier.

As for PBL, as so many have commneted here, students do better on boards over all with PBL because they learn medicine in a clinical context and are tested that way as well. They don't learn micro and physio and biochem separately and, all of a sudden, come to boards and have to synthesize this information they have learned and put it into a clinical context. Every PBL test is just like COMLEX, with a variety of cases and all the subjects mixed into clinical scenarios. Actually, our PBL tests were a LOT like COMLEX-- just harder. If you could pass them, then there's virtually no way you could fail your boards.

You have to do a lot of reading on your own in PBL, but what reading the textbooks does is teaches you the concepts of how things work, rather than memorizing a thousand bullet points from a powerpoint lecture. You learn to read a lot of outside material as well and develop your own sources for things. You become very familiar with a lot of the databases and resources you will be using later in residency, and then as an attending.

I a few years you will be sitting in morning report as a resident, hearing about the cases from the night before and you will find out it is just like PBL all over again. Someone will be presenting a case and you'll have a discussion of differentials and start asking what the lab values were. Someone will present from a study or journal on the same type of illness, and you'll all get "homework" to study up on this problem before tomorrow-- in between your admissions, discharges, rounding, etc.

This is REAL doctors, with medical degrees, learning about medicine from senior residents and attendings. And guess what? It's done just like PBL.

That said, a lot of people are not cut out for PBL. They don't have the discipline. And, schools like LECOM are good at weeding those people out. Many people just "self-select" themselves out of it from the beginning. If you don't think it's for you, then don't do it. But the facts here are that it works. Plain and simple.

Awesome post
 
Students at Western told me the school is adopting the PBL curriculum. Not sure if it's true.

Western has a case based (not PBL) format which they've been doing for a few years now. My 2 cents - format is mostly window dressing. You have to learn the same material one way or another. How it is presented is much less important than what you do with it; how you take notes, how you review, etc.
 
Am I the only one that thinks PBL sounds cool?

It is cool and it is probably a better way to learn medicine. It definitely teaches you how to think like a physician from the beginning. I went to a systems based school, which worked fine for me, but I didn't really put all of the information I learned together until I was studying for step 1.
 
Am I the only one that thinks PBL sounds cool?
I personally really liked the idea of PBL but I was not a fan of the school/locations. Don't get me wrong PA was beautiful but the area the school was situated in, was not for me, and FL was way too hot and humid.
 
SUMMARY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THIS POST:

I'm explaining what LECOM's PBL is because there seems to be some debate above. I am not advocating or criticizing it, just laying out the daily process. If you have no interest, skip my post!

Yeah it's not 30 chapters a day although 30 chapters a test sounds about right depending on page length. At LECOM, when you get up and running (after anatomy, embryo, histo, etc etc) it comes out to about 40 pages a day (or 80 pages for each meeting which occurs every other day).

To clarify LECOM's PBL. Basically you're looking at an episode of House. You're given a chief complaint (they can be very vague as in "my leg hurts" or my "bite is off") and one person is assigned as the "physician." This person does their best to take a thorough history of the patient through a mock interview (another student has a "script" of what to say). Once that's done, everyone contributes a diagnosis that they think is reasonable and it goes "on the board" House style. You're then given a write up of the patient's physical (not reasonable to actually do one in the room, obviously) and you adjust your thoughts/ddx based on that.

After that it's really a session of "hey if he's feeling this and his physical showed this, we should test his x." The facilitator in the room will end up handing out the results of these "tests" and you interpret them and so on and so forth until you reach the conclusion of the case.

The cases are based on real cases from the local area.

After you reach the end or run out of time, you literally choose your own reading. You're given a page minimum and some requirements such as: must be entire headings, minimum 7 page runs, etc. So if you had a case about a guy who had pneumonia maybe you'd pick the lung physio chapters to learn the lungs. Then maybe you'd throw some path about respiratory infections in there. If it was a case of PKU maybe you throw some biochem in there.

Your exams are based on these readings plus required assigned readings from the faculty. These are based on the cases and refer to the lab tests and some other stuff presented in the case that they think is specifically important. Each group actually gets its own exam based on what it chose.

I was nervous about us "picking" our readings but you'd be amazed at how often groups choose damn near the exact same readings. The faculty has a goal in mind with each case and apparently it works.

Anyway, in the end the challenge of PBL is that your knowledge comes from your reading. To me, that's not a problem because I don't absorb info from a lecture; I do much better being able to chill in my apartment with some coffee and read through chapters myself. Even in past lectures I'd end up doing this so I figured I'd cut out the middle man.

I don't think PBL is better than LDP, just better for people like me. Some people can look at slides and memorize the material in a heartbeat. For them LDP is probably sweet.

As for the board scores, my guess is that we do so much reading and preparing on our own that prepping for the boards is kinda just like studying for another exam. Maybe not but that's just my guess (haven't taken boards...that's for next year).

I know I am bumping up an older thread, but I just wanted to say that I was struggling with figuring out if I wanted to fill out LECOM-B'S secondary as it is only PBL. I didn't know it was only PBL when I submitted my primary. I submitted LECOM-Erie's secondary thinking I would just select LDP. But after reading this post among all the other informative posts on PBL in this thread, I am very much interested in PBL. My thinking is that even if you choose LDP, you still have to read everything on your own. You do the same in PBL but everything is presented in a clinical context, which is exactly how board questions are formatted.

I hope this bump encourages others who are PBL students to add to this thread by sharing their experience.
 
Was apprehensive about PBL, but it sounds structurally just like the PBL class we had as rad techs (and somewhat in microbio/immuno later on). I kind of liked it, but the prospect of learning large volumes of material like that is intimidating. But I'm definitely interested.
 
It seems like if you read many of the posts of second year students at lecture schools they eventually decide to start skipping lectures and just reading on their own anyway because they believe class is a waste of time. PBL allows you enough time to get in all the studying you need with the extra benefit of having those 3 2hr sessions a week to discuss things you don't understand with your classmates. I do understand this is not the system that works best for everyone but it certainly is the best fit for me. As has been mentioned before, LECOMs history of excellent board scores speaks for itself. Keep these things in mind also pertaining to the PBL curriculum at lecom-b: 1. consistently one of the highest board pass rates near to equal to 100%. 2. nobody in the history of the school with above a 3.0 has ever failed boards. 3. about 80% of students each year match their #1 ranked residency. If PBL is something that you think might work for you rest assured that you will get a good education and do well on boards/residency.
 
SUMMARY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THIS POST:

I'm explaining what LECOM's PBL is because there seems to be some debate above. I am not advocating or criticizing it, just laying out the daily process. If you have no interest, skip my post!

Yeah it's not 30 chapters a day although 30 chapters a test sounds about right depending on page length. At LECOM, when you get up and running (after anatomy, embryo, histo, etc etc) it comes out to about 40 pages a day (or 80 pages for each meeting which occurs every other day).

To clarify LECOM's PBL. Basically you're looking at an episode of House. You're given a chief complaint (they can be very vague as in "my leg hurts" or my "bite is off") and one person is assigned as the "physician." This person does their best to take a thorough history of the patient through a mock interview (another student has a "script" of what to say). Once that's done, everyone contributes a diagnosis that they think is reasonable and it goes "on the board" House style. You're then given a write up of the patient's physical (not reasonable to actually do one in the room, obviously) and you adjust your thoughts/ddx based on that.

After that it's really a session of "hey if he's feeling this and his physical showed this, we should test his x." The facilitator in the room will end up handing out the results of these "tests" and you interpret them and so on and so forth until you reach the conclusion of the case.

The cases are based on real cases from the local area.

After you reach the end or run out of time, you literally choose your own reading. You're given a page minimum and some requirements such as: must be entire headings, minimum 7 page runs, etc. So if you had a case about a guy who had pneumonia maybe you'd pick the lung physio chapters to learn the lungs. Then maybe you'd throw some path about respiratory infections in there. If it was a case of PKU maybe you throw some biochem in there.

Your exams are based on these readings plus required assigned readings from the faculty. These are based on the cases and refer to the lab tests and some other stuff presented in the case that they think is specifically important. Each group actually gets its own exam based on what it chose.

I was nervous about us "picking" our readings but you'd be amazed at how often groups choose damn near the exact same readings. The faculty has a goal in mind with each case and apparently it works.

Anyway, in the end the challenge of PBL is that your knowledge comes from your reading. To me, that's not a problem because I don't absorb info from a lecture; I do much better being able to chill in my apartment with some coffee and read through chapters myself. Even in past lectures I'd end up doing this so I figured I'd cut out the middle man.

I don't think PBL is better than LDP, just better for people like me. Some people can look at slides and memorize the material in a heartbeat. For them LDP is probably sweet.

As for the board scores, my guess is that we do so much reading and preparing on our own that prepping for the boards is kinda just like studying for another exam. Maybe not but that's just my guess (haven't taken boards...that's for next year).


This sounds like the greatest thing ever, LECOM-B is definitely staying at the top of my school list.
 
Yeah, that's how RVU is, and I was PBL at Erie because of this, I can handle dressing that way for a few hours a few times each week, but I don't want to sit in dress shoes all day every day... OH... I forgot, you can't have ANY food or drink (even water) in the lecture halls... I would die, I need snacks every 2 hours or so... all things to consider when applying...

Well if you are able to HAVE choices like that when applying then kudos to you. Underdogs don't really have a choice haha.
 
Top