White coats

[MDstudent79]

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Didn't docs just steal the white coat from lab scientists anyhow? Or am I wrong in that assumption?

 

[Bertelman]

Yes, they will eventually understand. But maybe the larger issue is that physicians have ceded far too much authority over patient care to non-physicians. All the points made here about other disciplines steadily encroaching on domains traditionally determined by medicine are absolutely correct. We have transitioned from a physician-led health care team, to a situation where nurses decide on discharge dates, administrators dictate care plans, PAs perform surgery, and RNs override orders.

The white coat is symptomatic of this general trend. If the long white coat really means nothing, and everyone who thinks it should be reserved for attendings is being pompous, then explain to me why students are not permitted to wear one? Why are students required to wear the short white coat in every clinical encounter?

Ask any faculty member, and they will tell you it is so that students are easily distinguished from residents and attendings. This, however, is not supposed to be an issue when nurses, social workers, and pharmacists wear one? Why, during my MS3 year, was I forced to wear a short coat while the nursing students ran around in long white coats?

The truth is that other disciplines wear the physician's coat because physicians have given up the authority of their position. Med students cannot wear it, because physicians still maintain some degree of control over their own students. However, as a discipline, medicine has become too cowardly to require other members of the "team" to show appropriate respect for doctors and their traditional uniform.

In my mind, this is tragic.

Physicians haven't "ceded authority". We were tired of working long hours in the hospital, so we happily hired PAs, NPs, etc. to scut out writing notes, running the clinic, etc. The work ethic has changed, and docs tend to spend less time in the hospital and more time with their families, or at least that's the idea. By the way, I didn't enter medicine because I seek authority. I could give a flip about authority. I don't care if everyone in the friggin' hospital wears a white coat. Do I have time to see my patient? Does the nurse take care of my patient? Can I effectively order tests, etc? Does my patient receive proper care? Is my patient still alive? That's what I will think about.

I just left an interview @ U of Maryland. Their ER is called Shock/Trauma Center. Those nuts wear PINK SCRUBS!!! I mean, "Oh what a cute little girl!" pink. Attendings, nurses, all of 'em. And they save lives. Big, bada$$ penetrating trauma, chest tubes, I can't imagine what they see. Do you think the patients give a flip? I sure don't.

Students wearing shorties is not a universal truth. There are schools in the U.S. and abroad that allow their students to wear full-length coats. I don't like my shortie, and I know it is a way to belittle my independent thinking and warn the nurses I am coming. Whatever. I worry more about passing exams than the length of my mandated uniform. Why can nurses, social workers and pharmacists wear long coats? Maybe it's because they have the authority to DO something. They are paid professionals. We are students. Don't take yourself so seriously. And I've seen the average nursing student. Walking in with that naive look, usually in pairs, asking the patient if they are in pain, is not likely to command respect.

Your post is littered with "authority", "commanding respect", "cowardly", etc. I imagine part of your motivation for becoming a doctor is so that you may command respect, and you will have authority over others. Good for you. I'd like to suggest that, as a body of professionals, we can lobby to control the responsibilities and practices of other health professionals. I don't think we can, or should desire to, dictate what they wear. That just reeks of insecurity and a lame attempt to maintain some distant air of superiority. Whatever revolution is happening in healthcare is too far along for us to stop, and by the way, some it is actually good.

What makes you more angry? That others are allowed to wear the long white coat like physicians, or that, despite this, you are still forced to wear a shortie? Tragic? I could probably find 100 things in healthcare that are more tragic than attire.

 

[Tired]

I could give a flip about authority. I don't care if everyone in the friggin' hospital wears a white coat. Do I have time to see my patient? Does the nurse take care of my patient? Can I effectively order tests, etc? Does my patient receive proper care? Is my patient still alive? That's what I will think about.

You say you don't give a flip about authority, then say you worry about proper patient care. Have you really never seen any of the examples I cited in my previous post? You've never seen a patient discharged when their physician wanted them to stay? You've never seen a nurse refuse to give a physician-ordered medication? You've never seen a PA or NP introduce themself as though they were a doctor, and proceed to practice beyond their scope?

I suppose you must work in a very special place, because I have seen this in every facility I have rotated through. And I have seen the frustration of physicians who are now forced to assume liability for decisions made against their wishes by non-physicians. You are very fortunate.

I just left an interview @ U of Maryland. Their ER is called Shock/Trauma Center. Those nuts wear PINK SCRUBS!!! I mean, "Oh what a cute little girl!" pink. Attendings, nurses, all of 'em. And they save lives. Big, bada$$ penetrating trauma, chest tubes, I can't imagine what they see. Do you think the patients give a flip? I sure don't.

I am familiar with Shock/Trauma. My program will be sending me there for at least 4 months during my R4 year. Yes, they are badasses. Cool place, eh? Good for you if you get a spot there, probably one of the premier Trauma Centers in the country.

Students wearing shorties is not a universal truth. There are schools in the U.S. and abroad that allow their students to wear full-length coats. I don't like my shortie, and I know it is a way to belittle my independent thinking and warn the nurses I am coming. Whatever.

University of Chicago is the only school I am aware of that gives its students the long coat. And yes, like you, I could care less about the belittlement my coat earns me. You're not the only one who's been kicked in the teeth enough times so that it doesn't sting anymore. My point had nothing to do with this.

Your post is littered with "authority", "commanding respect", "cowardly", etc. I imagine part of your motivation for becoming a doctor is so that you may command respect, and you will have authority over others. Good for you. I'd like to suggest that, as a body of professionals, we can lobby to control the responsibilities and practices of other health professionals. I don't think we can, or should desire to, dictate what they wear. That just reeks of insecurity and a lame attempt to maintain some distant air of superiority. Whatever revolution is happening in healthcare is too far along for us to stop, and by the way, some it is actually good.

What makes you more angry? That others are allowed to wear the long white coat like physicians, or that, despite this, you are still forced to wear a shortie? Tragic? I could probably find 100 things in healthcare that are more tragic than attire.

Are you intentionally missing my point? This thread and my post had nothing to do with me not wanting to wear my short white coat. It has to do with the steady erosion of the the leadership and decision-making responsibilities of physicians, with the co-opting of the physician's coat as a visible manifestation of this trend.

Allied Health did not suddenly decide to wear long coats because they like the way they look or appreciate the fashion statement. They do it as a way to assert an authority over patient care decisions that have always been the domain of those with an MD or DO. Yes, they have the ability to "DO something", but they have a limited scope of practice that they have steadily expanded, at the expense of physicians.

I don't know why you have become steadily more insulting towards me, questioning my motivations for going into medicine, and accusing me of "taking myself too seriously". This has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the appropriate role of various health care professionals on the team.

We are rapidly coming to situation where physicians will be caught between a rock and a hard place:

1) Physicians will simply be "one more member of the team". They will be forced to allow PAs, NPs, RNs, and care coordinators to make medical decisions about patient care regardless of their objections;

2) They will assume sole legal and financial responsibility for malpractice claims that arise from said decisions.

If you feel comfortable with this situation, then I guess you will fit in nicely with our coming managed care health system. However, I do not. I am not angry about this, I am scared of its impact on patient care. I have already seen adverse effects on patients from this trend, and I expect to see more throughout my career.

Now before you launch into another accusation about how I am arrogant and power-seeking, perhaps you could answer one question: Why exactly do you think nurses and other Allied Health professionals started wearing the long white coat?

 

[SocialistMD]

Now before you launch into another accusation about how I am arrogant and power-seeking, perhaps you could answer one question: Why exactly do you think nurses and other Allied Health professionals started wearing the long white coat?

I think most of us think you are grasping at straws with the correlation of starting to wear long white coats and the "usurping of physician power." I know my patients do not confuse me with the social workers, case managers or others, all of whom wear a long coat. I also know that, ultimately, my team is who decides what happens with a patient's care; the ancillary staff help and actually make my job easier, especially when it comes to getting a patient out the door. Never once have they told me a patient has to leave (in fact, they usually tell me they have to stay due to a lack of beds at the SNF) and never have they ever negatively interfered with our ultimate plan for patient care.

If a physician is allowing his/her NPs or PAs to make patient care decisions with which s/he disagrees, the physician is to blame, not the fact that the NP/PA is wearing a long coat. Our physician extenders do not make major decisions without talking with either the chief resident or the attending. The attending should be held liable for any decision made because the attending should not give that power away without accepting the consequences of doing so. I think your experience is based on not fully grasping the situation you are seeing rather than a PE acting independently and without recourse. No hospital would ever take the back of the PE over the attending; to think otherwise is foolish on your part.

 

[Tired]

I think most of us think you are grasping at straws with the correlation of starting to wear long white coats and the "usurping of physician power."

If you feel that way, so be it. But again I will ask: Why did Allied Health start wearing long white coats?

I think your experience is based on not fully grasping the situation you are seeing rather than a PE acting independently and without recourse. No hospital would ever take the back of the PE over the attending; to think otherwise is foolish on your part.

I am impressed at how blithely you are willing to dismiss my trepidation at the growing role of mid-level providers in making medical decisions. You act as though I am the only one with such concerns. You sound so reasonable, until you do a quick search of SDN or the internet, and realize that this is a real issue that the MD/DO community actively debates and worries about.

"No hospital would ever take the back of the PE over the attending"? "Never once have they told [you] a patient has to leave"? Are you serious? Stories about exactly these situations are all over SDN, the popular press, and the medical literature. The very reason HMOs have been the target of Federal legislation and multiple lawsuits is precisely because they now routinely overrule physician decisions on treatment and length of stay. Despite this, the HMO model is growing, and openly discussed as the future of health care in America.

And yet you want to pretend I am some sort of blind fool, who isn't seeing what I'm really seeing. Your high-handed reply was impressive for its persuasiveness, and makes for an excellent sound bite. But it only makes sense if you ignore the very real problems that are going on all around us. Pick up a newspaper, or talk to a patient who used to belong to an HMO; it's all right in front of your face.

If this is not a problem in your practice, kudos to you for maintaining your leadership position. You are my ideal. But how can you ignore the reality of this problem for the rest of medicine? Or was this simply a fun occassion to swipe at someone lower on the medical totem pole?

 

[SocialistMD]

I am a surgery resident at a university program. Here, we have no issues with our NPs/PAs acting without supervision just as we have no issues with our interns/junior residents acting without supervision. Everything must go through the proper channels. The same was true where I went to medical school.

If you are talking about community surgery programs or private practice professionals, I cannot speak for them as I have not worked in those environments (as I bet many who complain about them have not, either). However, I can offer this; if a private practice physician lets a PE make decisions on his/her own, s/he has no one to blame but her/himself.

If your hospital administration tells you patient x must be discharged against your medical judgment, you can find another job. There are places out there that allow you to make the decisions regarding your patients' care.

I have noticed the constant complaining on this forum about the current state of health care in regards to ancillary staff and their role in health care. I also notice most of it comes from medical students who do not see the system about which they complain. And no, this is not me talking down to people my junior on the totem pole. I think there is a lot to be learned by actually experiencing something rather than just reading about it or seeing it peripherally while on a rotation that doesn't really even interact with said ancillary staff.

Maybe I've been in the ivory tower too long, but I can't imagine a situation where your employee can make decisions that you, the boss, don't like yet you have no say. I'm sure the truth for most lies somewhere between the picture you paint and the environment in which I live, but there is no way I will ever work in a place where people make life-altering decisions about people under my care without my approval, and I don't fear not having a place to practice because I know there will always be institutions like the one where I am now.

 

[Bertelman]

You say you don't give a flip about authority, then say you worry about proper patient care. Have you really never seen any of the examples I cited in my previous post? You've never seen a patient discharged when their physician wanted them to stay? You've never seen a nurse refuse to give a physician-ordered medication? You've never seen a PA or NP introduce themself as though they were a doctor, and proceed to practice beyond their scope?

No, I haven't ever seen a patient discharged against a physician's will, unless it was condoned by another physician. Where I work, that requires a physician's written order. I've actually done rotations where the nurses refused to D/C the Pt. until the discharge summary was completed. Ha ve I seen a nurse refuse to deliver an order? Yes, but it has nothing to do with the white coat she isn't wearing. I have not seen an NP/PA introduce themselves as "doctor", but that's not really your question. You are asking if they have introduced themselves as though they were the doctor. Well, that requires a presumption on the patient's part, which is something out of our control. I don't think it is worth it for every PA/NP to introduce themselves as such, which would then require them to explain their education and team role to the patient ignorant to these distinctions. I've introduced myself in a generic fashion to patients, who then proceed to assume I am their doctor. Depending on the time I plan on spending with this patient, I may not correct them. It isn't always worth it. What matters is that I never ACT as though I am the physician. I think the situations you describe do happen, and unfortunately nurses do refuse orders too often. However, I think it is exceedingly infrequent that patient's are discharged without a doctor's order. If that is happeniing in your institution, I think there should be a systems-based solution to prevent that from happening. That does not include confiscating all white coats from non-physicians.

I suppose you must work in a very special place, because I have seen this in every facility I have rotated through. And I have seen the frustration of physicians who are now forced to assume liability for decisions made against their wishes by non-physicians. You are very fortunate.

Now you're just being condescending. I'm not twelve, jackass. I don't work on a rainbow in the sky.

I am familiar with Shock/Trauma. My program will be sending me there for at least 4 months during my R4 year. Yes, they are badasses. Cool place, eh? Good for you if you get a spot there, probably one of the premier Trauma Centers in the country.

I wasn't interviewing for Emergency, but thanks. The ironic part of my story is that, now that they have established themselves as a separate group via hideous pink scrubs, it has helped to entrench an animosity between them and other members of the ICU team that inhabit the same floor space. The docs/nurses in the STC and the docs/nurses of the other ICU work in the same room, but there is some invisible line that separates their work space, and a very clear line that separates their patint beds. I'm sorry, but I didn't get the feeling these crews work together, and I can only imagine this feeling of superiority over others works against good patient care. Bada$$ or not, they act like children. This was repeatedly confirmed by the resident giving out tour. Here's a clear situation where delineation of duties enforced by different clothing impairs the relationship between health care professionals.

University of Chicago is the only school I am aware of that gives its students the long coat. And yes, like you, I could care less about the belittlement my coat earns me. You're not the only one who's been kicked in the teeth enough times so that it doesn't sting anymore. My point had nothing to do with this.

I've never felt as though I was kicked in the teeth. I'm sorry your education involved such inhumanities. Everyone was very supportive at my school.

Are you intentionally missing my point? This thread and my post had nothing to do with me not wanting to wear my short white coat. It has to do with the steady erosion of the the leadership and decision-making responsibilities of physicians, with the co-opting of the physician's coat as a visible manifestation of this trend.

I understand your point, but I think comparing more professionals wearing white coats to the usurping of physician's powers is a simplification of the current state. Taking back the white coat won't change that. You can be angry, but I don't think it's worth the fight, as I am sure winning it will gain us nothing, and losing it would only further erode what respect we earn.

I don't know why you have become steadily more insulting towards me, questioning my motivations for going into medicine, and accusing me of "taking myself too seriously". This has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the appropriate role of various health care professionals on the team.

But somehow you're taking it so much more seriously than anyone here. I maintain that a certain team player's role has nothing to do with the clothing they wear. The chief of surgery can wear a dapper suit or pajamas, a.k.a. scrubs, and still save lives. I don't think it is as important as you that team roles are enforced by wardrobe.

Now before you launch into another accusation about how I am arrogant and power-seeking, perhaps you could answer one question: Why exactly do you think nurses and other Allied Health professionals started wearing the long white coat?

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. And maybe infection control, or to save their wardrobe from body fluids. If some of them do wear it to establish themselves as on the level of a physician, that's sad. It's lost on me, because I respect someone for their actions, not their dress. And if patients buy into it, that's fine with me. But I don't think it is responsible for the erosion of physicians powers, as you describe it.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I am a surgery resident

With all due respect, this is probably a big reason why you are shielded from some of the role-usurption that Tired was talking about. In the OR, the physician is still the supreme decision-maker. But in primary care, it is less and less the case. MBAs at the HMO or in hospital management who have not spent a day practicing healthcare overrule doctors routinely... as do midlevels and lower who do not wish to spend the effort or money to get into med school, yet still want all the benefits and responsibilities.

Like I said, this is still mostly a primary-care phenomenon... for now. But how long do you really think it will be before the MBAs and their PAs/NPs move in on surgery too?

Do Tired and MacGuyver overstate the threat of these things? Maybe. But you also dismiss as irrelevant when it is anything but.

And as for the white coat thing... I know that it is politically incorrect and nonempathetic and self-centered for physicians to resent the stealing of their "uniform" but that does not make it wrong. How would cops feel if everyone at the station, the secretaries and even the janitor, got to wear a police uniform? Should we scold them for being so hung up on a piece of clothing? And assuming you would say "yes"... do you have any idea how important the uniform is to cops in reality? Ask yourself... why is this?

I personally can live with midlevels and such wearing the coat, but what really sticks in my craw is the business-side case managers wearing it, when their interests are diametrically opposed to those of the patient. It would be like criminal defense lawyers wearing police uniforms. It's insane.

 

[Tired]

I have noticed the constant complaining on this forum about the current state of health care in regards to ancillary staff and their role in health care. I also notice most of it comes from medical students who do not see the system about which they complain. And no, this is not me talking down to people my junior on the totem pole. I think there is a lot to be learned by actually experiencing something rather than just reading about it or seeing it peripherally while on a rotation that doesn't really even interact with said ancillary staff.

Maybe I've been in the ivory tower too long, but I can't imagine a situation where your employee can make decisions that you, the boss, don't like yet you have no say. I'm sure the truth for most lies somewhere between the picture you paint and the environment in which I live, but there is no way I will ever work in a place where people make life-altering decisions about people under my care without my approval, and I don't fear not having a place to practice because I know there will always be institutions like the one where I am now.

I just really don't know what else to say. As I have said repeatedly, stories about NPs and PAs usurping physician authority are all over SDN, posted by residents and attendings. It is in the newpaper, as administrators and ancillary staff push patients out the door before they are ready. If you "can't imagine" such a situation, then I really guess there is nothing left for us to talk about.

I hope you are telling the truth, that this isn't a problem in your program. That gives me hope that it will not be a problem at mine, when I start up in a few months. However, given the fact that you cannot even acknowledge how widespread this discussion is in medicine, I think it's far more likely that you just have your head in the sand.

 

[Tired]

You are asking if they have introduced themselves as though they were the doctor. Well, that requires a presumption on the patient's part, which is something out of our control. I don't think it is worth it for every PA/NP to introduce themselves as such, which would then require them to explain their education and team role to the patient ignorant to these distinctions. I've introduced myself in a generic fashion to patients, who then proceed to assume I am their doctor. Depending on the time I plan on spending with this patient, I may not correct them. It isn't always worth it. What matters is that I never ACT as though I am the physician.

Unbelievable. You spend how many days worth of posts taking pot shots at me, and then turn around and make my point.

This is exactly the situation I am talking about. Ancillary staff presents themselves generically wearing white coats. They allow patient to assume that they are the physicians. The statements regarding the patient's diagnosis and proposed treatment plan. The patient assumes they are talking to the doctor, and takes their word as gospel.

This is fine, as long as the discussion was sanctioned by the physician. However, as I said, I have seen many occassions where it was not, and the patient has now recieved different information from different "doctors". The problem is compounded when these staff members are allowed to institute treatments independently. The whole situation is very confusing, and detrimental to patient care.

 

[SocialistMD]

And as for the white coat thing... I know that it is politically incorrect and nonempathetic and self-centered for physicians to resent the stealing of their "uniform" but that does not make it wrong. How would cops feel if everyone at the station, the secretaries and even the janitor, got to wear a police uniform? Should we scold them for being so hung up on a piece of clothing? And assuming you would say "yes"... do you have any idea how important the uniform is to cops in reality? Ask yourself... why is this?

My dad is a retired police officer, so I assure you I understand the importance of the badge much more than you do. I also understand it is the badge, not the uniform that carries the weight, much as the MD at the end of the name on my coat carries mine. The badge is symbolic of being an officer; my dad was a detective towards the end of his career and did not wear his blues, but he was a police officer nonetheless and people had the same respect for him.

You offer up the perfect analogy to show exactly why I don't understand the outrage with ancillary staff wearing white coats; do you respect "rent-a-cops" nearly as much as you do "real" police officers? Most people I know can tell the difference (despite being the field), despite both wearing similar uniforms and most do not hold the former in the same esteem as they do the latter. I think you guys are being paranoid...

 

[Northerner]

My dad is a retired police officer, so I assure you I understand the importance of the badge much more than you do. I also understand it is the badge, not the uniform that carries the weight, much as the MD at the end of the name on my coat carries mine. The badge is symbolic of being an officer; my dad was a detective towards the end of his career and did not wear his blues, but he was a police officer nonetheless and people had the same respect for him.

You offer up the perfect analogy to show exactly why I don't understand the outrage with ancillary staff wearing white coats; do you respect "rent-a-cops" nearly as much as you do "real" police officers? Most people I know can tell the difference (despite being the field), despite both wearing similar uniforms and most do not hold the former in the same esteem as they do the latter. I think you guys are being paranoid...

Paranoid?

PARANOID?!

Next you'll be telling us the government isn't monitoring our diet by analyzing stool samples flushed into the sewer system.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

My dad is a retired police officer, so I assure you I understand the importance of the badge much more than you do. I also understand it is the badge, not the uniform that carries the weight, much as the MD at the end of the name on my coat carries mine. The badge is symbolic of being an officer; my dad was a detective towards the end of his career and did not wear his blues, but he was a police officer nonetheless and people had the same respect for him.

You offer up the perfect analogy to show exactly why I don't understand the outrage with ancillary staff wearing white coats; do you respect "rent-a-cops" nearly as much as you do "real" police officers? Most people I know can tell the difference (despite being the field), despite both wearing similar uniforms and most do not hold the former in the same esteem as they do the latter. I think you guys are being paranoid...

Socialist, I understand your point... I guess it just sucks that we don't even have the equivalent of a "badge" to declare ourselves to the world anymore. As silly and shallow as that sounds.

By the way... is it you who keeps flying black helicopters by my place? I know it is! Yes, I do!

 

[osmodiar]

i saw a butcher and a fish vendor today with a white coat, i was like.. SOOO PISSED, where is the fame in being a doctor if you dont even get the exclusivity of wearing white coats.

 

[Whaty]

I don't think the white coat makes patients think you are a doctor. When I started volunteering they didn't have a short blue vest in my size to symbolize that I didn't know jack. I had on a button down shirt nice pants and shoes, with a name badge with writting that was to small for a patient to read. I would walk up and say "Hi how are you doing?" and before I could even utter the words that I was a volunteer they said "Hi dr.?" while they tried to read my name on the badge. Alot of it is how you carry yourself or at least thats what I have found.

 

[Ashers]

I don't think the white coat makes patients think you are a doctor. When I started volunteering they didn't have a short blue vest in my size to symbolize that I didn't know jack. I had on a button down shirt nice pants and shoes, with a name badge with writting that was to small for a patient to read. I would walk up and say "Hi how are you doing?" and before I could even utter the words that I was a volunteer they said "Hi dr.?" while they tried to read my name on the badge. Alot of it is how you carry yourself or at least thats what I have found.

I guess it's good you're using the search function to bring up a really old thread.

However, white coats of any length => patient thinks you're a doctor. As a phlebotomist, I wore a disposable paper white coat and carried around a bucket of tubes and needles, and more often than not, I got called doctor by the patients.

I've also had several patients tell me that they don't see a difference between the lengths of the coats, and some have gotten annoyed when I said I couldn't write their prescriptions for them, but I'd have one of the doctors look into it.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Well, I don't know about you guys, but my white coat is less white and more yellow after 6 months on the floors!

 

[Whaty]

I guess it's good you're using the search function to bring up a really old thread.

However, white coats of any length => patient thinks you're a doctor. As a phlebotomist, I wore a disposable paper white coat and carried around a bucket of tubes and needles, and more often than not, I got called doctor by the patients.

I've also had several patients tell me that they don't see a difference between the lengths of the coats, and some have gotten annoyed when I said I couldn't write their prescriptions for them, but I'd have one of the doctors look into it.

I do agree with that any white coat patients think your a doctor. I probally should have been a little more clear on my point hehe. That patients don't even know the difference if you have an air of confidence in a hospital setting. This just tells me that patients are clueless lol. So I think the real issue is if a PA,Nurse or whoever is mistaken for a physician and does not correct the patient they should be spoken too, so that it doesn't happen in the future. Just the way I feel if someone steps outa bounds, you call them on it 😀.

 

[Ashers]

Well, I don't know about you guys, but my white coat is less white and more yellow after 6 months on the floors!

Mine's a drab light-grey, with splotches of blue (from my folder) and red and black inkstains.

 

[Dr. Pickle]

Get over yourself

I second this.