Who here had a positive PhD experience in Clinical? And where?

[funky_buddha]

I have been seeing and hearing a lot of upsetting things about clinical phd programs as I move closer to applications. Even my sister, who is just going on her clinical internship, has had a pretty miserable experience in her doctoral study. I was wondering if I could hear from some of you who are in, or completed, doctoral study in a lab and program they like. Which schools have a good reputation for having decent faculty?

Thanks!!

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[deleted343839]

I think you'll find that experiences vary a lot even within programs, and that the modal experience is a combination of positives and negatives. There are stressful aspects of the training (long hours, detailed and often unvarnished feedback on one's performance, setbacks of the research process, etc.) that some will tolerate better than others. Burnout is common. Having clear-eyed goals and a strong motivation to pursue your area of study is helpful, but only insofar as your goals are a good fit with what your program and mentor can provide. One person's overall positive experience in one lab is generally a poor predictor of anyone else's.

To be sure, there are certain labs and programs that have a reputation for being more difficult and challenging to navigate than others. Still, I can't think of a fully funded program that I would recommend for or against in anything like universal terms.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I enjoyed my lab, and my time in grad school as a whole. There were certainly stressful aspects, but it was a positive experience overall.

I would echo MamaPhD's response in that it's tough to say there are schools which have a reputation for having "decent" faculty. There can be substantial variability from one lab to the next, even within the same program. But if you're able to meet/speak with the DCT during interviews, that (combined with other faculty interviews) can sometimes give a sense for the political atmosphere of the program, which trickles down to students.

 

[WisNeuro]

I loved my grad program. Program overall was decent, but I had a great relationship with my faculty PI, so that definitely helped. As with others, it al depends, I also knew people who were unhappy. Though, with some of them, it was not program related. They came from a warm coastal city, and did not like being in a Midwestern city with snow.

 

[ClinicalABA]

It was largely a neutral experience. A means to an end. Definitely came with some sacrifices- financial and social. Watched my friends move on with there lives (e.g., real jobs, kids, homes) while I was in a 6+ year holding period. There were a lot of positive experiences. Met some great people, got married, figured out what I really wanted to be "when I grew up"). It was by no means a negative experience for me. In my cohort of 6, I'd say there were one or two who found it pretty negative, maybe one who thought it was the greatest thing ever. Most of dealt with it all just fine, but were very glad to be done with it all. Doesn't make much sense to identify the specific program (Go Minutemen!), as it was a mentorship model and any takes on it were pretty lab specific. Plus, it's changed from a a scientist-practitioner model to a clinical scientist model, so expectations and outcomes are a bit different.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Grad school as transformative for me. And at the same time, others were very unhappy. As said, find the right mix of life-timing, personality, location, opportunities, and fit will make much of the difference. IMO, if you want to have a beneficial experience in grad school you likely need to do the following:
1) Make sure you know what you are getting into. Understand what the training will require as well as the type of job you will have after grad school. I've seen students that realized within months that they don't want to be doing anything clinical. Or some students don't like the research requirements. Some make it bitterly through training only to hate their jobs.
2) Avoid debt. Accruing debt makes every small problem in grad school seems even worse.
3) Do the best of finding an advisor/program/lab that fits your needs/personality. I am sure many of us have seen rancorous advisor relationships b/c of poor fit. My advisor was very warm and easy going but not a research machine. Other students had much more active labs and more opportunities but had very difficult advisors. Know which one you want/need. My program had fairly secured funding while other programs required students to compete against each other to attain funding.

See how the above 3 points relate to your sister's experience.

If you are already hesitant about clinical programs, you may want to take some time off before applying. That is my biggest advice. Once you leave this scene you will know quickly if you want back into academia or not.

 

[funky_buddha]

Thanks all for the responses. Clearly there is a lot of variance of experience even within a particular department, and yes, my understanding is that the mentor relationship will probably dictate a great deal of my experience in a program. @DynamicDidactic - good points. My sister went into her PhD wanting a position in academia and now that she is wrapping up, she seems to be moving away from that. My sense at this point is that I may not be cut out for a tenure track career - I already know that I don't want to spend my life as an academic, but prefer a variety of research and practice. I'd probably be a better fit in a scientist-practitioner oriented program rather than a strict clinical science one. And re: taking time off, I actually already did that for a little over a year and then came back to an RA position at the VA. Fortunately, the time off was productive and consistent with my career path - I just wasn't involved in research. At this point it is hard to see myself doing anything else with my career. I enjoy the work and it seems like there's a good amount of flexibility once you have your doctorate, if you play your cards right.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Yup, I loved grad school. I made lasting and very important relationships through it and value those friendships a ton. The time with them built them into some of the strongest personal and professional relationships I could ask for. That came from the personality fit with my advisor/program/peers. That's super important to making it a valuable experience.

 

[Ollie123]

If the pay wasn't terrible, I'd happily spend the rest of my life getting a dozen different PhDs. Doesn't mean there weren't rough parts, there were plenty of them and I did consider leaving at one point. Overall though, it was a great time. Good people, lots of time to learn new things and very little pressure compared to the other side. Still keep in touch with many of the faculty.

Its important to make sure you are a good fit with the mentors, but I think equally important to make sure you are a good fit for "graduate school" in general. We don't discuss the latter often. That isn't an indictment of individuals who aren't or a comment on ability/intellect/etc. as much as it is about personal preferences. I enjoy hard work, am delighted to receive minimal guidance and have to tinker endlessly with things until I do it right (or even "more right"), love open-ended questions, some of my favorite times were sitting around bs'ing about obscure theories, geeking out about nuanced methods, etc. with fellow students/faculty (something we still do in social settings, which irritates my wife to no end) and am reasonably receptive to criticism. Take out any one of those things and grad school would have been a lot harder. Take out any two and it would have been hell. I'd probably come up with additional elements if I thought about this for a while.

Many people default to grad school as the next step or do it because they want to be "X" and that is the path to getting there. It can absolutely still be worth it in that case (and that probably comprises the majority of grad students). I do think it means the experience will be a lot more painful.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree 100% with Ollie (and the other folks above). Much like a person can be a bad personal fit for medical school despite having cognitive abilities in abundance, the same can happen with graduate school. Speaking with current and former graduate students, as is being done here, might be the best way to get a feel for grad school until you're actually there.

 

[Ollie123]

The comparison to medicine is apt. I know several science-y types who <hated> medical school because they preferred the open-ended, intellectualism/theorizing style of graduate school vs. the mass-memorization, knowledge-based/drinking-from-a-firehose style common in med schools. All largely gave up practice (two did not even pursue residency) and went into scientific careers. Neither is right or wrong. A mismatch is sure to be an uncomfortable experience though.

Many of the people I referenced above who <hated> graduate school were the sort expecting a more med-school-esque experience where there was a truly massive amount of information to learn, but with clearer boundaries around it and somewhat more guidance.

 

[HeftyLefty]

It was largely a neutral experience. A means to an end. Definitely came with some sacrifices- financial and social. Watched my friends move on with there lives (e.g., real jobs, kids, homes) while I was in a 6+ year holding period. There were a lot of positive experiences. Met some great people, got married, figured out what I really wanted to be "when I grew up"). It was by no means a negative experience for me. In my cohort of 6, I'd say there were one or two who found it pretty negative, maybe one who thought it was the greatest thing ever. Most of dealt with it all just fine, but were very glad to be done with it all. Doesn't make much sense to identify the specific program (Go Minutemen!), as it was a mentorship model and any takes on it were pretty lab specific. Plus, it's changed from a a scientist-practitioner model to a clinical scientist model, so expectations and outcomes are a bit different.

As a Minute-person as well I can say those who have good relationships with their mentors (almost everyone) are having good experiences. The few who do/did not tend to hate grad school. Seems like the biggest part of the equation.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Honestly, grad school was the best time of my life so far. And yes, I am very aware I am in the minority. I attribute this to good relationships with mentors in and out of the program, a sane cohort (at least I hung out with only the sane ones), and held boundaries as best I could around things that were important to me. I had a plan for how I wanted to get through the program and life at that point, stuck to it as best I could, and enjoyed the ride.

Edit: It also helped to be in a funded program with a stiped - so crippling debt was not on my mind. That would have definitely ratcheted up the misery.

 

[Sanman]

I will also chime in and say that my graduate experiences were a mixed bag. My grad program and my cohort were great. Being in a small program, we were a close knit group. I generally felt supported and the program did a great job looking out for students. Internship was a bit more of a scarring and less supportive experience for me. That was more due to chance than anything. While there were some great clinicians and staff there, the ones in my specialty left something to be desired and were less than supportive in some ways.

That said, as others have mentioned, training a mixed bag simply because individual relationships determine your outcome more so than in other fields. Unlike medicine or law, where things are largely standardized with large classes and board exams, psychology is much more murky and individual. Dissertation defense and oral comps committees vary from person to person, your experience may be much worse than mine or vice versa. I got through my hoops. I have a good friend that failed his oral comps and passed his written ones at another program. He ended up leaving that program after two years and start over due to what appeared to be more a personality conflict than anything. One of things that has always bothered me about the field, is the line it straddles. One part academia and one part health services profession. I enjoy a bit of both and like research, but could do without what I often see as the problems of academia seeping into the health service profession.

 

[RejectClinical]

I had a very positive graduate school experience, and I would say the majority of people in my program did as well. I think this was largely due to a program that was extremely well funded (some students were actually saving money during graduate school; I don't think I know one person who took out loans to get through graduate school), low cost of living, and a chair who is still constantly looking for ways to get the stipend of the graduate students raised. We also didn't have to pay stupid student fees. The overall course requirements were lower than other programs and most faculty (again, always exceptions) really valued you increasing your knowledge base (vs slogging you down with meaningless coursework). The clinical requirements were relatively low and there were a lot of options for doing practicum. Now, this isn't to say there weren't hard days or days where I thought I should quit.....but I frequently look back with fond memories on graduate school. I feel proud to come from the program I did and would highly recommend it to anyone. Feel free to message me if you want more details. I too would have stayed in graduate school forever if it weren't for the pay.....eventually it is nice to get real money!

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Otherwise referred to as anxious and overly controlled?

The comparison to medicine is apt. I know several science-y types who medical school because they preferred the open-ended, intellectualism/theorizing style of graduate school vs. the mass-memorization, knowledge-based/drinking-from-a-firehose style common in med schools. All largely gave up practice (two did not even pursue residency) and went into scientific careers. Neither is right or wrong. A mismatch is sure to be an uncomfortable experience though.

Many of the people I referenced above who graduate school were the sort expecting a more med-school-esque experience where there was a truly massive amount of information to learn, but with clearer boundaries around it and somewhat more guidance.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

I miss grad school too!!!!

Honestly, grad school was the best time of my life so far. And yes, I am very aware I am in the minority. I attribute this to good relationships with mentors in and out of the program, a sane cohort (at least I hung out with only the sane ones), and held boundaries as best I could around things that were important to me. I had a plan for how I wanted to get through the program and life at that point, stuck to it as best I could, and enjoyed the ride.

Edit: It also helped to be in a funded program with a stiped - so crippling debt was not on my mind. That would have definitely ratcheted up the misery.

 

[funky_buddha]

I had a very positive graduate school experience, and I would say the majority of people in my program did as well. I think this was largely due to a program that was extremely well funded (some students were actually saving money during graduate school; I don't think I know one person who took out loans to get through graduate school), low cost of living, and a chair who is still constantly looking for ways to get the stipend of the graduate students raised. We also didn't have to pay stupid student fees. The overall course requirements were lower than other programs and most faculty (again, always exceptions) really valued you increasing your knowledge base (vs slogging you down with meaningless coursework). The clinical requirements were relatively low and there were a lot of options for doing practicum. Now, this isn't to say there weren't hard days or days where I thought I should quit.....but I frequently look back with fond memories on graduate school. I feel proud to come from the program I did and would highly recommend it to anyone. Feel free to message me if you want more details. I too would have stayed in graduate school forever if it weren't for the pay.....eventually it is nice to get real money!

What program were you in???

 

[AlmostaPhD]

This is a little late now but A) I loved my (scientist-practitioner/clinical science) grad program at a large research university and B) I am now an academic. I think these things are related. I had to respond to this because I am teaching a summer class and an undergrad in psychology said something like "whenever I talk to grad students about grad school they make it sound bad." So I felt like I had to share that here. FWIW, I said "well it's really hard and it's harder for some people than others. I liked it."

As a teacher and mentor, I see people who want to practice and are very skilled in that domain who do not always enjoying the research demands or general stress/workload of grad school. It's something to live through and then have the life you want as a licensed professional. For those of us that like pursuing/creating new knowledge, training the next generation, gaining professional and intellectual independence, and having a flexible lifestyle (I taught in flip-flops today and scheduled no in-person classes next week so I can go on vacation) grad school and academia are pretty sweet. All of my papers get at least somewhat critical feedback, most of my grants don't get funded, and I'm not a millionaire. But I really like what I do and this spark was lit way back when I started in grad school and dove into graduate level clinical psychology training.

 

[Sanman]

Something I am curious about. What is the SES of the people here that enjoyed grad school? And age of attendance? I was raised middle/upper middle class. I completed grad school largely on my own dime, but had a safety net for unforeseen expenses/emergencies. I was also young and single at the time as well (straight out of college).

 

[WisNeuro]

SES at the time of grad school? Lower middle, took one year off between undergrad and grad. My safety net was no undergrad debt as I had scholarships and had worked since age 12 and had a good deal of money saved for education purposes. I also worked during grad school, minimizing my need to dip into those savings.

In my program, I'd say most people were pretty happy. Those that weren't seemed to be people who had a hard time with interpersonal relationships, or who resented the time commitment (i.e., thought they could treat it like a 9-5 job).

 

[AlmostaPhD]

Something I am curious about. What is the SES of the people here that enjoyed grad school? And age of attendance? I was raised middle/upper middle class. I completed grad school largely on my own dime, but had a safety net for unforeseen expenses/emergencies. I was also young and single at the time as well (straight out of college).

Yeah that's fair. Middle/upper middle class with divorced parents (one parent owned a home and bought me a used car in high school, the other struggled a bit more but didn't have to contribute much to my support), cost of living in grad school was lowest of any place I'd ever lived, both parents had college degrees (one a doctorate), I was 21 and single when I started, I had a stipend but was young and dumb so also took out some loans, parent covered some of my expenses (e.g., cell phone family plan). I liked grad school for personality and intellectual stimulation reasons, but yeah I had a lot of advantages. Easier to immerse yourself in academia when you're not worried about paying for the funny noise your car is making or keeping your kid clothed.

 

[Ollie123]

Family was probably on the edge of lower-middle and middle-class. First person in the entire extended family to receive any kind of advanced degree. They do place high value on education and helped some while I was in school (plane tickets home, car repairs). I drove the car my grandparents got me as a graduation present, which was pretty reliable so that was a huge help. If I was in a total bind though, I do think family would have pitched in to help out though thankfully it never came to that. I think the biggest help though, was just having been instilled with a relatively low-maintenance lifestyle. Food on the table, safe place to live, a car that works well enough to get me from A to B reasonably reliably, some peace and quiet and I'm good. Lifestyle has inflated a bit now that I'm further along, but try not to lose sight of that.

I was single for most of grad school, though got married near the very end. Wife (at the time) earned 40k which was perfectly livable where we were. Though shall we say....spousal differences in spending habits were an ongoing negotiation early on and I felt a lot more broke as 2 people living on 60k than 1 person living on 20k when we first got married

Still no kids, though we had quite a few folks with kids in my program. I imagine that would change things dramatically - can't fathom the childcare costs given most had spouses with "normal" jobs that were not particularly high-paying.

Curious what your hypothesis was when asking about this. I could see two different pathways. A higher-income background could certainly mean more more confidence in a safety net and potentially family support to help with expenses. However, I could also easily see people used to a more luxurious lifestyle really struggling to dial it back and live on ~20k.

 

[MCParent]

Quite low ses background. Loved grad school. I don’t think that was universal among students in my program. I had an amazing amazing academic mentor.

 

[Sanman]

Family was probably on the edge of lower-middle and middle-class. First person in the entire extended family to receive any kind of advanced degree. They do place high value on education and helped some while I was in school (plane tickets home, car repairs). I drove the car my grandparents got me as a graduation present, which was pretty reliable so that was a huge help. If I was in a total bind though, I do think family would have pitched in to help out though thankfully it never came to that. I think the biggest help though, was just having been instilled with a relatively low-maintenance lifestyle. Food on the table, safe place to live, a car that works well enough to get me from A to B reasonably reliably, some peace and quiet and I'm good. Lifestyle has inflated a bit now that I'm further along, but try not to lose sight of that.

I was single for most of grad school, though got married near the very end. Wife (at the time) earned 40k which was perfectly livable where we were. Though shall we say....spousal differences in spending habits were an ongoing negotiation early on and I felt a lot more broke as 2 people living on 60k than 1 person living on 20k when we first got married

Still no kids, though we had quite a few folks with kids in my program. I imagine that would change things dramatically - can't fathom the childcare costs given most had spouses with "normal" jobs that were not particularly high-paying.

Curious what your hypothesis was when asking about this. I could see two different pathways. A higher-income background could certainly mean more more confidence in a safety net and potentially family support to help with expenses. However, I could also easily see people used to a more luxurious lifestyle really struggling to dial it back and live on ~20k.

One of the things I noticed through my experience getting my doctorate is that there is a long period of vulnerability with very few off ramps unless to get the degree and even then you need funding. whether it is the deposit on your apartment, a running car, or the fees required to graduate and get your initial licensing done. Most of the people I went to school with were middle to upper middle class and had a benefactor of sorts (parents, spouses, etc) to cover any pitfalls. Not wealthy, but comfortable. Most of the wealthy folks I know seem to be steered towards fields that the family were in or something that would be useful as a complement (business, real estate law, medicine, etc). In comparison, some on the social workers and nurses I worked were able to more easily work their way up. This led to a mix of SES levels (some working class, some middle, upper middle, etc). I used to work with a nurse practitioner who started out as a CNA and self-funded her education. Likewise, I know a few social workers that started as case managers and are working their way up as well. Just an observation.

 

[deleted343839]

Something I am curious about. What is the SES of the people here that enjoyed grad school? And age of attendance? I was raised middle/upper middle class. I completed grad school largely on my own dime, but had a safety net for unforeseen expenses/emergencies. I was also young and single at the time as well (straight out of college).

I started grad school in my early 20s. I was working class (qualified for Pell grants). I'd worked several full time and part time jobs in high school and college, and the grad school thing seemed like a pretty nice deal overall. But my mindset was very much "failure is not an option" and the anxiety of having no real backup plan or safety net was a component of my stress.

Most of the people I went to school with were middle to upper middle class and had a benefactor of sorts (parents, spouses, etc) to cover any pitfalls. Not wealthy, but comfortable.

Same. And it's fair to say that for me, it was not until grad school that I became vividly aware of how class/SES shaped my experiences.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Same. And it's fair to say that for me, it was not until grad school that I became vividly aware of how class/SES shaped my experiences.

Same here.

Low-middle class, first generation college student, started graduate school in my early 30s. I funded my undergrad with savings and some loans. I started at community college before transferring to a small commuter college and was able to get research experience at the local R01 university. I got into a fully funded research-focused program, with guaranteed research and teaching fellowships. Unfortunately, despite the fellowships, I still have to take out decent sized school loans because I live in an expensive part of the country. I would say that the majority of the students in my program grew up very comfortably. I think it definitely contributed to a healthy case of imposter syndrome the first couple years (along with the very intimidating not-so-warm advisor). It’s been hard, but I can say that graduate school has been the best time of my life to date. I’ve made so many wonderful friends and have learned so much. I still pinch myself every day.

I also should mention that I’ll be on internship this year and I got a second job teaching to help with living expenses. My monthly take home pay will only cover my rent and literally nothing else.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

But doesn't the range of middle class span from. Like 40k to 150k? Not completely accurate on those numbers, I just know many people who think they are middle class but aren't.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

SES at the time of grad school? Lower middle, took one year off between undergrad and grad. My safety net was no undergrad debt as I had scholarships and had worked since age 12 and had a good deal of money saved for education purposes. I also worked during grad school, minimizing my need to dip into those savings.

In my program, I'd say most people were pretty happy. Those that weren't seemed to be people who had a hard time with interpersonal relationships, or who resented the time commitment (i.e., thought they could treat it like a 9-5 job).

All the exact same here. I was also single for the most of it, which helped me do what I wanted when I wanted for both academics and self-care.

 

[Sanman]

But doesn't the range of middle class span from. Like 40k to 150k? Not completely accurate on those numbers, I just know many people who think they are middle class but aren't.

Around 45k to 145k if defining it by income from my quick google research. It is supposed to be the middle 60% of the country. That said I think it varies based on where you live. 150k in NYC is definitely middle class. In kansas? Less so. That said, my definition is more about resources having some, but limited resources for education. Most people I know had some resources to help them get started and cover incidentals like small college fees, used car repairs, etc. However, the people I know that had private college paid for by parents and had means chose more prestigious and lucrative professions or were not worried about needing a job. Those with no support that sometimes struggled to make rent and had little support tended to go into work that was more stable and also led to better pay. For example, a good friend that worked at a bank throughout college to pay for an education degree opted to take a job as a bank manager rather than an elementary school teacher due to better pay and job prospects. The teachers that I know were able to get enough support to launch themselves and struggle through the initial search to find a decent job.

 

[Meteora]

Something I am curious about. What is the SES of the people here that enjoyed grad school? And age of attendance? I was raised middle/upper middle class. I completed grad school largely on my own dime, but had a safety net for unforeseen expenses/emergencies. I was also young and single at the time as well (straight out of college).

Grew up somewhere between poor and lower middle class. First in my family to go to college. It was pretty simple, if I didn't get into a fully funded program I couldn't go to grad school. I was literally interviewing for jobs the week I got my ultimate acceptance offer (I was 24).

I think my background/culture has affected my perspective on my PhD program/grad school. My dad supported my mom and myself on $30k while I was growing up. Now in a sense I'm being paid $20k to get my doctorate in the field I love. I'm a few years into my program but I still wake up on some days feeling surreal about how lucky/privileged I am to have this opportunity.

 

[123EW]

I had a very polar experience in grad school. In hindsight, though, it was all very positive. The growth from the negative is not something that can be taught.