Who is Starting at AUC St. Maarten MAY 2015?

[UBC2014]

I'm sorry, but this is a cop-out. I'm not trying to turn this into a discussion about the merits of a caribbean medical education.

What was said above was that PD's prefer FMGs over US-IMGs because of a list of horrible qualities shared by all caribbean grads. As both I and BrooklynBulls have pointed out, the DATA shows that this is just patently false. Programs could absolutely fill only using FMGs if that is what they desired to do.

Of course the majority of US-IMGs only get residency positions because the programs need them to fill, and they are viewed as second-class applicants. But this is also the reality for DOs in the NRMP. This line of reasoning has no relevance whatsoever to what I was taking issue with above.

The DATA shows that a larger # of non-us IMGs match compared to US-IMGs. But to be fair, a decent amount of the non-US IMGs aren't actually FMGS either - and are Canadian IMGs, who generally are actually fairly competitive compared to the average US student who becomes an IMG. They are just a product of the Canadian medical system that is much more strict with entry requirements.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ADT2015_final.pdf

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[chicagochildpsych]

It depends on the applicant. I am an auc alum (so is my wife), did a university residency and fellowship, where I was chief. I was also president of resident council. Served on the med school admissions committee (where I saw many kids who were "connected" who got into school with worse stats than mine). I left for private practice, make well over 500k, and since we have a university affiliation...northwestern med school students fetch me coffee before they listen to my lectures. My wife is also successful, making great money working 3 days a week. Now, if you will excuse me I'll go back to telling the guy who trained at Harvard and did residency at mgh when he's on call...I'm his boss. Get off your high horse, AUC gives you a shot, but if you have the work ethic you will be fine.

 

[Lord_Vader]

It depends on the applicant. I am an auc alum (so is my wife), did a university residency and fellowship, where I was chief. I was also president of resident council. Served on the med school admissions committee (where I saw many kids who were "connected" who got into school with worse stats than mine). I left for private practice, make well over 500k, and since we have a university affiliation...northwestern med school students fetch me coffee before they listen to my lectures. My wife is also successful, making great money working 3 days a week. Now, if you will excuse me I'll go back to telling the guy who trained at Harvard and did residency at mgh when he's on call...I'm his boss. Get off your high horse, AUC gives you a shot, but if you have the work ethic you will be fine.

I think you might've missed one of the main points brought up in this thread. Going to the Carribean might've been a suitable option a few years ago as you yourself have demonstrated but nowadays and especially in then near future going outside of the US for medical school is like blowing away hundreds of thousands of dollars only to have a life of misery and debt afterwards. GME reform doesn't seem to be happening any time soon and there is a new medical school popping up in the states every year now. Match rates for IMGs will undoubtably plummet as a result of this and we are just trying to save people from shooting themselves in the foot. If only the department of education refused to lend loans to students studying at non-US medical schools...

 

[UBC2014]

I think you might've missed one of the main points brought up in this thread. Going to the Carribean might've been a suitable option a few years ago as you yourself have demonstrated but nowadays and especially in then near future going outside of the US for medical school is like blowing away hundreds of thousands of dollars only to have a life of misery and debt afterwards. GME reform doesn't seem to be happening any time soon and there is a new medical school popping up in the states every year now. Match rates for IMGs will undoubtably plummet as a result of this and we are just trying to save people from shooting themselves in the foot. If only the department of education refused to lend loans to students studying at non-US medical schools...

Before we jump on him - he/she posted in a different thread that nowadays he/she would recommend people pursue DO schools in the US over carribean programs.

 

[the argus]

Gotta love it when a non-physician PhD and a premed spend their free time on the Caribbean message boards spewing "truth" with their vast knowledge culled from years of experience with the NRMP and in clinical medicine.

I'll just finish with this. I'm a caribbean grad THIS YEAR (which qualifies as "nowadays"). I matched into a university program that has US MDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and FMGs. Most PDs are concerned with getting the best residents they can get, regardless of where they come from. Most physicians do not judge other physicians by where they went to medical school, because that would make them idiots, and most physicians aren't idiots.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Gotta love it when a non-physician PhD and a premed spend their free time on the Caribbean message boards spewing "truth" with their vast knowledge culled from years of experience with the NRMP and in clinical medicine.

I'll just finish with this. I'm a caribbean grad THIS YEAR (which qualifies as "nowadays"). I matched into a university program that has US MDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and FMGs. Most PDs are concerned with getting the best residents they can get, regardless of where they come from. Most physicians do not judge other physicians by where they went to medical school, because that would make them idiots, and most physicians aren't idiots.

That is absolutely false and you know it. If what you are saying is true, then why does the charting outcomes report consistently show that non-US grads have a lower chance of matching into any given speciality even when the step scores between both parties are identitical?

 

[UBC2014]

Gotta love it when a non-physician PhD and a premed spend their free time on the Caribbean message boards spewing "truth" with their vast knowledge culled from years of experience with the NRMP and in clinical medicine.

I'll just finish with this. I'm a caribbean grad THIS YEAR (which qualifies as "nowadays"). I matched into a university program that has US MDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and FMGs. Most PDs are concerned with getting the best residents they can get, regardless of where they come from. Most physicians do not judge other physicians by where they went to medical school, because that would make them idiots, and most physicians aren't idiots.

Many of your peers who also matched from the carrib (many friends of mine also fit this category) would disagree with you. Were talking in averages here.

 

[the argus]

That is absolutely false and you know it. If what you are saying is true, then why does the charting outcomes report consistently show that non-US grads have a lower chance of matching into any given speciality even when the step scores between both parties are identitical?

Because generally speaking, being a US grad makes you a better applicant, at least initially. But this also does not mean IMGs are BAD applicants, or that they will be bad physicians (as has been said or inferred numerous times in this thread). And many PDs, if given the choice between high achieving IMGs or mediocre AMG, will choose the IMG. Not all PDs, but many (I shouldn't have used the word "most" above).

If people actually ever read what I write on these boards they would see that I have never once said that the caribbean is as good an option as US MD or DO. I have argued that in certain specialties DO is not necessarily better than carib, but never once have I said that someone should absolutely go to the caribbean if they have other options.

What I do say is that people should use actual data (and further understand what that data represents) when making arguments. And when I do this I get labeled as a shill, because I don't fall in line with the "the caribbean is the worst decision you will ever make, akin to playing the lottery, and caribbean graduates are dangerously inept" crowd.

 

[chicagochildpsych]

Before we jump on him - he/she posted in a different thread that nowadays he/she would recommend people pursue DO schools in the US over carribean programs.

This

 

[the argus]

I'll give you a perfect example of misinterpreted data used to make half-cocked arguments. This is from earlier in this thread.

53% lol. ****ing horrifying.

This quote was liked by Goro/Lord_Vader/etc, and they're right, that 53% would be ****ing horrifying if it actually represented the chances of matching as a US-IMG, but it doesn't. And it doesn't take much detective work to understand why that number doesn't represent that. But people just throw it out there because it fits their argument, rather than actually understanding where it comes from. I'll put it all here so you don't even have to leave this thread.

If you look at the ECFMG report from 2013,
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf,
you will see that the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years.

When people say "match rate", they usually mean the chances of a recent graduate who is in the match for the first time. This is exemplified by the fact that the NRMP data reports actually breaks up US allopathic applicants into US seniors vs. US grad.

But when quoting that 53% you are not actually describing US-IMGs in the match for the first time, you are describing all US-IMGs in the match regardless of how many times they have applied. The NRMP data reports don't differentiate US-IMG senior vs US-IMG grad. There is without a doubt a percentage (~10%) of US-IMGs that manage to graduate from school, but are poor applicants (semester failures, step failures, etc) and are not able to ever match. This small yearly cohort continues to apply every year, builds up over time (hence the 5.7 years above), and drastically skews the US-IMG "match rate".

If you want to include those reapplicants when describing true US-IMG "match rates", then you also have to include all the applicants from those previous years that did successfully match. If you don't do this (like the NRMP data reports), you are way oversampling the poor applicant/unmatched cohort. The NRMP does actually recognize this because they split US allopathic applicants into those 2 groups, they just don't do it for IMGs for some reason.

People try to say the US MD vs US-IMG match rates are 94% vs 53%, which is in fact comparing 2 completely different data sets. The yearly match rates for NRMP defined US grads (i.e. non-matched applicants from previous years) are actually 40-50%, showing that poor applicants, regardless of where they come from, do not do very well in the match.

The first-time match rate for the big 3 caribbean medical schools is between 80-90%. Granted this does not take into account students lost to attrition before graduation, which is no doubt substantial.

But when people say caribbean grads have a ~50% chance of matching, they are grossly misinterpreting the data.

 

[laricb]

I'll give you a perfect example of misinterpreted data used to make half-cocked arguments. This is from earlier in this thread.



This quote was liked by Goro/Lord_Vader/etc, and they're right, that 53% would be ****ing horrifying if it actually represented the chances of matching as a US-IMG, but it doesn't. And it doesn't take much detective work to understand why that number doesn't represent that. But people just throw it out there because it fits their argument, rather than actually understanding where it comes from. I'll put it all here so you don't even have to leave this thread.

If you look at the ECFMG report from 2013,
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf,
you will see that the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years.

When people say "match rate", they usually mean the chances of a recent graduate who is in the match for the first time. This is exemplified by the fact that the NRMP data reports actually breaks up US allopathic applicants into US seniors vs. US grad.

But when quoting that 53% you are not actually describing US-IMGs in the match for the first time, you are describing all US-IMGs in the match regardless of how many times they have applied. The NRMP data reports don't differentiate US-IMG senior vs US-IMG grad. There is without a doubt a percentage (~10%) of US-IMGs that manage to graduate from school, but are poor applicants (semester failures, step failures, etc) and are not able to ever match. This small yearly cohort continues to apply every year, builds up over time (hence the 5.7 years above), and drastically skews the US-IMG "match rate".

If you want to include those reapplicants when describing true US-IMG "match rates", then you also have to include all the applicants from those previous years that did successfully match. If you don't do this (like the NRMP data reports), you are way oversampling the poor applicant/unmatched cohort. The NRMP does actually recognize this because they split US allopathic applicants into those 2 groups, they just don't do it for IMGs for some reason.

People try to say the US MD vs US-IMG match rates are 94% vs 53%, which is in fact comparing 2 completely different data sets. The yearly match rates for NRMP defined US grads (i.e. non-matched applicants from previous years) are actually 40-50%, showing that poor applicants, regardless of where they come from, do not do very well in the match.

The first-time match rate for the big 3 caribbean medical schools is between 80-90%. Granted this does not take into account students lost to attrition before graduation, which is no doubt substantial.

But when people say caribbean grads have a ~50% chance of matching, they are grossly misinterpreting the data.

SGU matched over 800 applicants this Yr, and yes only 16 were Preliminary residency Positions.

 

[tiedyeddog]

SGU matched over 800 applicants this Yr, and yes only 16 were Preliminary residency Positions.

Wow, can you provide evidence of this? I would be amazed if in one year they matched that many.

 

[the argus]

Wow, can you provide evidence of this? I would be amazed if in one year they matched that many.

Ross and SGU have been placing (NRMP + prematch) ~800/year each for the past few years.
http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm

 

[Goro]

Did you ever learn about the term "outlier" while in Caribbean?

Gotta love it when a non-physician PhD and a premed spend their free time on the Caribbean message boards spewing "truth" with their vast knowledge culled from years of experience with the NRMP and in clinical medicine.

I'll just finish with this. I'm a caribbean grad THIS YEAR (which qualifies as "nowadays"). I matched into a university program that has US MDs, DOs, US-IMGs, and FMGs. Most PDs are concerned with getting the best residents they can get, regardless of where they come from. Most physicians do not judge other physicians by where they went to medical school, because that would make them idiots, and most physicians aren't idiots.

 

[the argus]

Did you ever learn about the term "outlier" while in Caribbean?

Ross hasn't posted their match list yet for 2015, so I'll use SGU's, but they are usually similar.

16 anesthesia
6 rads
37 EM
~30 University FM (not univ-affiliated)
~110 full University IM (not univ-affiliated)
6 University med/peds
9 neurology
26 OBGYN
3 ortho
10 path
~40 full University peds (not univ-affiliated)
1 PMR
~45 full University psychiatry (not univ-affiliated)
26 categorical gen surg

so that's ~350 non-primary care or University primary care (IM/FM/peds/psych) matches from SGU alone.

So I guess the better question is, do you know what the term outlier means? Seriously, I don't know why I even bother responding to you anymore. You repeatedly show yourself to be uninformed, biased, and generally just a dick. And when you get presented with PURE FACTS that challenge your assertions, you either try to change the subject, start leveling insults, or just run away.

 

[laricb]

Wow, can you provide evidence of this? I would be amazed if in one year they matched that many.

Match Day 2015 proved once again that St. George's University graduates continue to enter US medicine in large numbers. At this date, 800 have received first-year training spots in US residencies—many in their top choice. Most graduates were matched through the National Resident Matching Program® (NRMP), but many choose to sign into residencies outside of the Match.

Believe it or not I really don't care

 

[gyngyn]

Wow, can you provide evidence of this? I would be amazed if in one year they matched that many.

You forget how huge the incoming classes are. The number applying includes those eligible from many starting classes.
What these schools never disclose is the true denominator including repeaters and those never allowed to sit for step 1.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Ross and SGU have been placing (NRMP + prematch) ~800/year each for the past few years.
http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm

I had no idea the classes were THAT big. How on earth do you do anatomy lab with that many people.

So, with 800 people getting matched from those two places each it would be nice to know:
1. How many people entered the match from each class?
2. How many people entered the class to start?

Could you give me some citations for that? If so, maybe I'll change my mind on the caribbean.

 

[the argus]

I had no idea the classes were THAT big. How on earth do you do anatomy lab with that many people.

So, with 800 people getting matched from those two places each it would be nice to know:
1. How many people entered the match from each class?
2. How many people entered the class to start?

Could you give me some citations for that? If so, maybe I'll change my mind on the caribbean.

Exact numbers are hard to know because, as gyngyn pointed out, the schools do not make that info publicly available. I can only give you examples from my experience at Ross.

Ross starts 3 classes per year, each with 350-450 people (I believe SGU is similar in that they have 2 classes per year, each with 500-600 students). Ross is on a semester schedule, but they don't give summer vacation so you do the 4 basic science semesters in 16 months. This comes out to somewhere between 1100-1300 starting per year.

The attrition rate for my class was ~25%, so this will come out to ~900 people per year (i.e. 3 classes) applying to the match each year. Then you must add the additional people who are reapplicants from previous years (many of these are bad applicants from multiple previous years with little chance of matching, but some are strong applicants from the previous year that didn't match in more competitive fields and are reapplying in less competitive fields and will match)

Then you have an 80-90% first-time match rate (Ross' last year was 86%, which is from the mouth of Joseph Flaherty, Dean of Ross, who was previously the Dean of the University of Illinois COM before Ross poached him a few years ago).

Put this all together and you get ~800 grads in residency each year.