Whoot! Whoot! 98% of 2019 'unofficially' placed per NBOME, discussion on making P/F boards

BorntobeDO?

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"Unofficial results from the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP) Main Residency Match, combined with the AOA Match, the Military Match, and sub-specialty match programs, are that 98% of all 2019 graduates from the nation’s DO-granting medical schools matched for GME training."
Source: The Match That Lit a Fire: Exploring the Successes and Challenges of Match 2019 — NBOME

Ignoring the obvious word wizardry with calling placement "match's", I see a lot of hedging in the statement. Still 98% is definately worth a Whoot, and higher than I expected. It is also interesting to see what NBOME is suggesting about COMLEX going P/F also. Or rather, P/F with number scores not being available till after the match.

Just an interesting article:
"The American Medical Association (AMA) and other stakeholders are demanding changes to the system. Numerous suggestions have been put forward — from traffic rules for granting interviews, to pre-signaling program preferences by applicants. In response, The AMA, the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB), the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME), and others (including the NBOME), met to discuss the pros and cons of possible changes to licensure exam scoring and reporting. Conversations explored the possible elimination of numerical scores for licensing exams, allowing candidates to elect for scores on only pass-fail reporting, holding back numeric scores until after a successful match, and creating new composite scoring to include clinical skills examination data. Dialogue also continued around COMLEX-USA and USMLE equality by ACGME residency program directors — an important clarification that has been contributing to heightened stress among DO students. "

Some of those ideas sound bad like having a score on 'clinical skills examination data' which I presume could only come from the actors score on the PE. Poor choice if they go that route. 'Electing' to show scores would defeat the whole point of not having scores, as not 'showing' your score would become a red flag, and programs would start requiring it. Interesting to see what they are talking about tho.
 
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If COMPLEX and USMLE are "equivalent exams" in residency selection as per NBOME, is there going to be a push for a unified Step 1/Step 2 exam and maybe an osteopathic/OMM exam for anyone interested in that? What's the point of having 2 separate exams?


The quote from the press release I'm basing my post on:
"Dialogue also continued around COMLEX-USA and USMLE equality by ACGME residency program directors — an important clarification that has been contributing to heightened stress among DO students."
 
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BorntobeDO?

BorntobeDO?

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If COMPLEX and USMLE are "equivalent exams" in residency selection as per NBOME, is there going to be a push for a unified Step 1/Step 2 exam and maybe an osteopathic/OMM exam for anyone interested in that? What's the point of having 2 separate exams?
Maintain the O$teopathic Di$tinctivene$$ that we have worked for hundreds of years achieving.

(I stole this idea from @AnatomyGrey12 so admittedly not original).
 
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Maintain the O$teopathic Di$tinctivene$$ that we have worked for hundreds of years achieving.

(I stole this idea from @AnatomyGrey12 so admittedly not original).

Do you think any student would be interested in an independent OMM exam? Is the merger of ACGME and AOA residencies portending the disappearance of COMLEX exams? Having 2 separate board exams that are supposedly equivalent makes even less sense to me than making the Steps Pass/Fail.
 
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Isoval

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Do you think any student would be interested in an independent OMM exam? Is the merger of ACGME and AOA residencies portending the disappearance of COMLEX exams? Having 2 separate board exams that are supposedly equivalent makes even less sense to me than making the Steps Pass/Fail.
I'm gonna be real with you:

If they ditched COMLEX and had just an OMM portion that cost us exactly the same (i.e. money-grubbing AOA made the same off of us), I'd be all for that. Even if they made it cost more. Just don't make us take both.
 

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Do you think any student would be interested in an independent OMM exam? Is the merger of ACGME and AOA residencies portending the disappearance of COMLEX exams? Having 2 separate board exams that are supposedly equivalent makes even less sense to me than making the Steps Pass/Fail.
I wouldn’t want a separate omm only section. Im counting on my knowledge of how real medicine works to save my comlex score. There is no way I could pass a raw omm test on its own.

I’m of the mind that if you can pass step then they should leave you alone. I’ll just give them the money for comlex.

You should be forced to take comlex if you willingly participate in omm research.
 
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Isoval

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I wouldn’t want a separate omm only section. Im counting on my knowledge of how real medicine works to save my comlex score. There is no way I could pass a raw omm test on its own.
*looks at my previous post*

...yeah good point :|
 
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ribdon

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If COMPLEX and USMLE are "equivalent exams" in residency selection as per NBOME, is there going to be a push for a unified Step 1/Step 2 exam and maybe an osteopathic/OMM exam for anyone interested in that? What's the point of having 2 separate exams?


The quote from the press release I'm basing my post on:
"Dialogue also continued around COMLEX-USA and USMLE equality by ACGME residency program directors — an important clarification that has been contributing to heightened stress among DO students."

The point of 2 separate exams = money in the bank for NBOME and they will not give that up come what may. Think of it as a unified exam meaning that either USMLE stays and COMLEX goes or vice versa and it would be next to impossible for the former to happen. I tried doing the math on the revenue from Level 1, Level 2 PE and CE based on the number of enrolled 2nd and 3rd years alone (aka not counting PGY-1's taking Level 3) and thats just a lot of money + unemployment waiting to happen should it be axed.

I do think the USMLE is a better written test and definitely a better test of knowledge. It'd be great if OMM is incorporated into USMLE and COMLEX goes out the window but who am I kidding?!
 
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OMM is incorporated into USMLE
please no, I'm just a dumb student but I don't think OMM is evidence based (which is one of the many frustration of the other posters in the thread). I think it's ridiculous and unfair that DO students need a COMLEX set of boards in addition to the USMLE... if both exams are equivalent as NBOME states both should be optional and the students should decide whether to take one or the other or both
 

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please no, I'm just a dumb student but I don't think OMM is evidence based
Some of it is pretty solid.

Some of it should have been left with naturopathy back in 1894.
 
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Some of it is pretty solid.

Some of it should have been left with naturopathy back in 1894.
Osteopathic schools should take advantage of the focus on board exams and revise how OMM is now taught/tested ie it should be wholly evidence based. Or invest into rigorous, hypothesis-driven OMM research. That'd be great and I'd be psyched to learn more about it!
 

ribdon

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please no, I'm just a dumb student but I don't think OMM is evidence based (which is one of the many frustration of the other posters in the thread). I think it's ridiculous and unfair that DO students need a COMLEX set of boards in addition to the USMLE... if both exams are equivalent as NBOME states both should be optional and the students should decide whether to take one or the other or both

I totally agree with you that if NBOME is asserting that both tests are equivalent then the student should have the option of choosing. I guess my point was that it'd be next to impossible to do away with COMLEX because AOA/NBOME will argue for testing "the unique skill" that distinguishes the DOs from the MDs, OMM; so my suggestion would be add OMM to USMLE (which of course does not make sense because then it is ridiculous from the standpoint of the allopathic students. Which brings me to the conclusion that it would be next to impossible to do away with COMLEX and/or make it optional for students.
 
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They should ABSOLUTELY NOT get rid of the numerical score. It will do nothing but hurt us DO students
For the majority of students I don't know if it would. And if it made the top 20% of testtakers less competitive (presumably these people did fine in preclinical, so I doubt their chances are totally messed up), is that a fair trade to make sure the bottom half of the class is able to match rather than getting autofiltered for being under 500. If I am a COM I am very worried if the NBOME keeps adjusting the mean back down, and then programs set hard cut offs like 'must have a 220 or 500,' that I have seen quite commonly. What do I do with the 40% students who don't hit those numbers (and won't because the NBOME keeps adjusting/normalizing the curve)?

There's also the diversity argument. The top testers tend to be very similar socioeconomically and even ethnically, and the thought is that going pass/fail would allow greater inclusion of disadvantaged students in specialties where right now they might not get a second look. Interesting arguments to be sure. I can't say I really support either of these reasons, but I at least understand them. Either way, if both boards are talking about it, seems like it has a decent chance of happening.
 

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I'm gonna be real with you:

If they ditched COMLEX and had just an OMM portion that cost us exactly the same (i.e. money-grubbing AOA made the same off of us), I'd be all for that. Even if they made it cost more. Just don't make us take both.
Unfortunately, a lot of the DO students who take only the COMLEX right now would bomb the Step 1 exam if they were required to take it.

[Redacted. Thanks for sharing the most recent data, @Oh_Gee.]

EDIT: It turns out that the current DO USMLE pass rates right now are quite high—in 2018, 96% on Step 1. However, less than half of DO students currently take the USMLE exams; if all DO students were required to take them, the pass rates would likely be significantly lower.

Even after the merger, the DO students in the bottom half of their classes will be able to take the COMLEX, achieve a marginally passing score, and match into community FM/IM. The COMLEX serves as a safety net for the many DO students who weren't academically qualified to attend medical school and end up barely scraping by. The big-shots at the AOA know all of this perfectly well, and they know that the elimination of the COMLEX would mean plummeting board passage rates and match rates at a majority of DO schools.
 
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Unfortunately, a lot of the DO students who take only the COMLEX right now would bomb the Step 1 exam if they were required to take it.

In 2014, only 89% of DOs who opted to take Step 1 passed, which was 5% lower than the US MD pass rate. Note that this is comparing a select group of DO students who wanted to take the Step 1 with all US MD students. If all DO students were required to take it, we can imagine that the DO passage rate would be significantly lower. (I don't think the AAMC has published any DO-specific USMLE pass rate data since 2014, so the above figure is the most recent one we have.)

Even after the merger, the DO students in the bottom half of their classes will be able to take the COMLEX,, achieve a marginally passing score, and match into community FM/IM. The COMLEX serves as a safety net for the many DO students who weren't academically qualified to attend medical school and end up barely scraping by. The big-shots at the AOA know all of this perfectly well, and they know that the elimination of the COMLEX would mean plummeting board passage rates and match rates at a majority of DO schools.
 

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@Osminog Have you actually taken either of those exams?
No. But if you think it's equally challenging to get a 90th percentile score on a test in a pool of DO students as it is to get a 90th percentile score on a test in a pool that half consists of US MD students, then I don't know what to tell you.

The actual difficulty of the tests matters far less than the results, which are determined by how you perform relative to other test-takers. When your fellow test-takers are smarter and more well-prepared, it's harder to get a good score, regardless of whether the test itself is difficult or not.
 
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@Osminog You're right. I don't know how to respond to someone who is phrasing COMLEX as being the equivalent to Step 1 when many, many users over the years have typed that the two are very different animals and doing well in both is not contingent upon doing well on the other. There are many DO students who would prefer just taking Step 1 because they've stated it is better written and the recent trend in higher pass rate indicates that perhaps they are not just thinking that the grass is greener on the other side.

Making blanket statements like DO students are generally weaker than MD students when you're currently neither is literally just taking the piss on DO students when they have to prepare for twice the amount of boards . I just don't understand why you keep making charged generalizations with little to no basis and don't even bother to change your paradigm when someone gives you a statistic that flies against your preconceived notions. You're really an amazing person.
 

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I wouldn’t want a separate omm only section. Im counting on my knowledge of how real medicine works to save my comlex score. There is no way I could pass a raw omm test on its own.

I’m of the mind that if you can pass step then they should leave you alone. I’ll just give them the money for comlex.

You should be forced to take comlex if you willingly participate in omm research.
Agreed. I did well on level 1 thanks to step 1 prep but omm was by far my worst section in the breakdown. I just reviewed Chapman's points and rolled the dice. I'd be screwed if we needed to actually know omm.
 
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Osminog

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@Osminog You're right. I don't know how to respond to someone who is phrasing COMLEX as being the equivalent to Step 1 when many, many users over the years have typed that the two are very different animals and doing well in both is not contingent upon doing well on the other. There are many DO students who would prefer just taking Step 1 because they've stated it is better written and the recent trend in higher pass rate indicates that perhaps they are not just thinking that the grass is greener on the other side.
All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.

Making blanket statements like DO students are generally weaker than MD students when you're currently neither is literally just taking the piss on DO students when they have to prepare for twice the amount of boards . I just don't understand why you keep making charged generalizations with little to no basis and don't even bother to change your paradigm when someone gives you a statistic that flies against your preconceived notions.
I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.

You're really an amazing person.
Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
 
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All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.



I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.



Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
Most DO students did take step. 2020 has about 7300 students, over 4k of them took step per that link above. The majority took it, and 96% passed (i.e. the same as USMD first pass rate). I see no evidence that DO students are 'on average' less academically talented than MD peers by the time they get to boards. Premed, yes, but by the time you get to boards, they look pretty dang similar. If you wanted to find an academically inferior group, you would point out the Caribbean/internationals grads first time pass rate in the 70's.

And you really have no idea what you are talking about in regards to board prep. There is definitely a difference between level 1 and Step 1 emphasis. It really is a testament to our students that we do so well on Step at this point.
 

Isoval

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All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.



I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.



Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
You’re not getting it. The bolded is simply not true.
 

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Do you think any student would be interested in an independent OMM exam? Is the merger of ACGME and AOA residencies portending the disappearance of COMLEX exams? Having 2 separate board exams that are supposedly equivalent makes even less sense to me than making the Steps Pass/Fail.
I suspect that it will come long after I retire, but it is very possible that a COMLEX-like exam might become an exit exam for DO schools, and all medical students have to take Steps for residency.
 
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Ho0v-man

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All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.



I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.



Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
With all due respect, you don’t seem to know much about either of these exams.
All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.



I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.



Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
i don’t necessarily disagree with all of your points, but it just doesn’t seem like you know a lot about either exam. There really just are different focuses for each exam. Not just omm/msk stuff either. For instance, I swear each comsae feels like half obgyn/women’s health and it’s a very small section in uworld. I honestly feel like in some ways it’s harder to study for the dang thing because it’s so random and there’s no resources that cater to it.

I feel like most DO students could pass Step. They just wouldn’t be doing amazing enough to really change anything about where they’re going to train so they don’t bother. I’ve met some going for FM who just feel it’s a waste of time and money when they could be spending dedicated on a vacation. If day you want to do peds in the Midwest and don’t like big cities, is there really a point to spending 600 bucks taking step 1? I’m not too sure there is tbh.

But if DOs were forced to take Step I think they’d certainly pass.
 

Chibucks15

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All I'm saying that it's harder to achieve a given percentile score on the USMLE than it is to achieve that same percentile score on the COMLEX, because the USMLE's test-taker pool is, overall, more competitive. The select group of DO students who choose to take the Step exams do seem to have a high pass rate (comparable to that of US MD students). However, less than half of DO students opt to take the Step exams, so we can't hastily generalize the outcomes of a select group of high-performing DO students to all DO students.



I never made any "blanket statements" about how "DO students are generally weaker than MD students." Sure, there's no doubt that, on average, DO students are less academically talented than their MD peers. That being said, there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take. No one is making any "charged generalizations."

DO students typically don't "prepare for twice the amount [sic] of boards." First, most DO students still only take the COMLEX exams. Second, for students who choose to take both, the standard method is to prepare for the USMLE and then supplement with OMT materials, e.g., Savarese.



Thanks. This is the part of your post I agree with the most.
You don't know what you're talking about. Please stay in your lane until you actually experience anything you're commenting on
 

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With all due respect, you don’t seem to know much about either of these exams.

i don’t necessarily disagree with all of your points, but it just doesn’t seem like you know a lot about either exam. There really just are different focuses for each exam. Not just omm/msk stuff either. For instance, I swear each comsae feels like half obgyn/women’s health and it’s a very small section in uworld. I honestly feel like in some ways it’s harder to study for the dang thing because it’s so random and there’s no resources that cater to it.
I never said that the exams are exactly the same. There are posts all over SDN saying that there are differences in terms of focus, style, content, etc., and I don't doubt that that's the case. My original point had literally nothing to do with that, and I never claimed to be an expert on the actual content of the exams. The Pina Colada guy was bringing up a bunch of arguments that had no relation to what I originally posted, and there's no need to build on top of the confusion.

You don't know what you're talking about. Please stay in your lane until you actually experience anything you're commenting on
Nice contribution. I almost forgot that you're SDN's honorary director of traffic, tasked with the responsibility of telling everybody what "lanes" to stay in. Keep up the great work.
 
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Chibucks15

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I never said that the exams are exactly the same. There are posts all over SDN saying that there are differences in terms of focus, style, content, etc., and I don't doubt that that's the case. My original point had literally nothing to do with that, and I never claimed to be an expert on the actual content of the exams. The Pina Colada guy was bringing up a bunch of arguments that had no relation to what I originally posted, and there's no need to build on top of the confusion.



Nice contribution. I almost forgot that you're SDN's honorary director of traffic, tasked with the responsibility of telling everybody what "lanes" to stay in. Keep up the great work.
Oh spare me. So I can’t tell you to educate yourself on something you clearly don’t know about but you can tell us what the deal is with inferior DOs and other nonsense about board exams you don’t know about? Just so I can clarify
 

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Oh spare me. So I can’t tell you to educate yourself on something you clearly don’t know about but you can tell us what the deal is with inferior DOs and other nonsense about board exams you don’t know about? Just so I can clarify
I never said anything about DOs being "inferior." Those are your words, not mine. In fact, I literally said, "there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take." Did you read anything that I said?

Look, I reserve the right to be wrong sometimes, and if I'm wrong in this case, then so be it. But if you think I'm wrong, then actually address what you think is incorrect about my claims. Don't just assume I'm an ignoramus and tell me to go away. How is that constructive or helpful to anybody?

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful input. I've retreated back to my lane. You can go ahead and patrol other threads now, making sure traffic is moving smoothly.
 

Chibucks15

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I never said anything about DOs being "inferior." Those are your words, not mine. In fact, I literally said, "there are some exceptionally bright and motivated DO students who get >250 scores on Step 1, as well as some dull and lazy MD students who fail Step 1 and have to re-take." Did you read anything that I said?

Look, I reserve the right to be wrong sometimes, and if I'm wrong in this case, then so be it. But if you think I'm wrong, then actually address what you think is incorrect about my claims. Don't just assume I'm an ignoramus and tell me to go away. How is that constructive or helpful to anybody?

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful input. I've retreated back to my lane. You can go ahead and patrol other threads now, making sure traffic is moving smoothly.
Alright while the creativity of your digs is nice, I think you’re overreacting. You mentioned several times that DOs are weaker students. Do I really have to go quote you? Other people called you out on it.

You also mentioned that not even half of DOs take Step (also false). You insinuated that if all DOs took step then much more would fail (again, incorrect). And your statement about it being harder to get a certain percentile doesn’t make any sense because of course it’s harder to stratify every MD/DO applicant compared to just DO applicants. You more than triple the test taker pool.

I don’t think you’re dumb or anything, and I did the same stuff you are. I just think spouting “facts” when you haven’t even finished first year yet, isn’t correct or helpful. Sorry if my wording about staying in your lane offended you I guess
 

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the comlex is never going away because thats how the aoa nbome will make money. i thought having an optional section at the end of usmle for omt like when they had the biochem section at the end of the mcat when they were still testing it out. it benefits us DO students to take both usmle 1 and 2 esp if youre going for competitive specialties. i always knew i went to a DO school and instead of taking the mcat again id take both usmle exams this was my personal opinion only
 

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Agreed. I did well on level 2 thanks to step 1 prep but omm was by far my worst section in the breakdown. I just reviewed Chapman's points and rolled the dice. I'd be screwed if we needed to actually know omm.
For you and everyone else out there for Level 1, 2 CE, or 3.

Everyone should spend 15 min watching these videos and drawing them out during the exam. You don't need to spend more than that, nor should you on Chapman's P
points or viscerosomatics. This alone is guaranteed to get you most of the points.

Chapman's Points:

Viscerosomatics:
 

Deecee2DO

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Most DO students did take step. 2020 has about 7300 students, over 4k of them took step per that link above. The majority took it, and 96% passed (i.e. the same as USMD first pass rate). I see no evidence that DO students are 'on average' less academically talented than MD peers by the time they get to boards. Premed, yes, but by the time you get to boards, they look pretty dang similar. If you wanted to find an academically inferior group, you would point out the Caribbean/internationals grads first time pass rate in the 70's.

And you really have no idea what you are talking about in regards to board prep. There is definitely a difference between level 1 and Step 1 emphasis. It really is a testament to our students that we do so well on Step at this point.
@Osminog DO students less academically talented? Most take COMLEX? Neither of those statements are true. Most DO students take Step
 

Deecee2DO

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Alright while the creativity of your digs is nice, I think you’re overreacting. You mentioned several times that DOs are weaker students. Do I really have to go quote you? Other people called you out on it.

You also mentioned that not even half of DOs take Step (also false). You insinuated that if all DOs took step then much more would fail (again, incorrect). And your statement about it being harder to get a certain percentile doesn’t make any sense because of course it’s harder to stratify every MD/DO applicant compared to just DO applicants. You more than triple the test taker pool.

I don’t think you’re dumb or anything, and I did the same stuff you are. I just think spouting “facts” when you haven’t even finished first year yet, isn’t correct or helpful. Sorry if my wording about staying in your lane offended you I guess
Pretty sure @Osminog hasnt even started med school yet so his arguments are moot
 
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Osminog

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@Osminog DO students less academically talented? Most take COMLEX? Neither of those statements are true. Most DO students take Step
The latest data we have show that most DO students take Step 1 (60%), but a majority still don't take Step 2-CK.

DO students are, on average, less academically talented than their MD counterparts. Like I said, there are some truly phenomenal DO students and some horrendous MD students; I was strictly talking about averages.

In the 2018 match, the average Step 1 score for US MD students was 232. The average Step 1 score for DO students was 226. These averages are comprised of the scores of virtually 100% of US MD students and only 60% of DO students. Many of the remaining 40% of DO students opted to not take the Step 1 exam because they didn't feel academically ready to do so. There's strong reason to believe that the already present gap between MD and DO student board scores would widen drastically if these 40% of DO students were compelled to take the USMLE exams.

Pretty sure @Osminog hasnt even started med school yet so his arguments are moot
That's not how argumentation works. You don't have to directly experience something to have a well-informed opinion about matters relating to it. How would you respond to a patient who tells you, "Since you've never been HIV-positive, I don't think your opinions about my condition are valid"? Dismissing someone's opinions off-hand on the basis of their personal background is just a textbook example of argumentum ad hominem.
 
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Osminog

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The gap would certainly widen, Arseminog. Your insight on that is brilliant. However, it may be argued that many of the DO students who opted to not take Step planned to pursue residency at places that are receptive to applicants that only took COMLEX. Lots of those students did just fine in the 2019 match, despite being less academically talented, Arseminog. There are plenty of former AOA programs and longstanding DO-friendly ACGME programs that couldn't care less about board scores or which exam someone took. From my experience, programs care about whether or not the applicant is a good fit and if the applicant can check the box on licensing applications after graduation that they have passed one-of-two sets of board exams (COMLEX or Step), Arseminog.
Lol, "Arseminog." The thread hasn't even reached two pages and we're already resorting to elementary school insults? Impressive.

Anyway, you completely missed the point. My original post in this thread was about how mandating the USMLE and eliminating the COMLEX would likely widen the board performance gap and hurt DO outcomes. That's all I've been saying. I'm not talking about how COMLEX-only DO students performed in the 2019 match. Were you looking to respond to anything I actually said, or did you want to type up a random, irrelevant post just as an excuse to call me names?
 
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Lol, "Arseminog." The thread hasn't even reached two pages and we're already resorting to elementary school insults? Impressive.

Anyway, you completely missed the point. My original post in this thread was about how mandating the USMLE and eliminating the COMLEX would likely widen the board performance gap and hurt DO outcomes. That's all I've been saying. I'm not talking about how COMLEX-only DO students performed in the 2019 match. Were you looking to respond to anything I actually said, or did you want to type up a random, irrelevant post just as an excuse to call me names?
Your initial argument is moot anyway because there is no way the comlex goes away despite your pie-in-the-sky premise that there would be some mandate to eliminate comlex. I'd also argue that those programs that are DO friendly would take applicants they want despite their lower usmle scores and that the actual number of DO applicants who are "hurt" (not matched? lower number of interviews? fewer academic program invites?) would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. Scores are scores and open doors, but it is part of the application, not the application.

Step is a more difficult exam and the quality of the pool of test takers is stronger, for sure. But in your fantasy-world premise of a USMLE-only board exam, I believe many of the DO students would be able to meet the elevated expectations and achieve the passing score that the specific individual needs in order match at a program they want to train, despite the USMLE performance gap.
 
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BorntobeDO?

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Your initial argument is moot anyway because there is no way the comlex goes away despite your pie-in-the-sky premise that there would be some mandate to eliminate comlex. I'd also argue that those programs that are DO friendly would take applicants they want despite their lower usmle scores and that the actual number of DO applicants who are "hurt" (not matched? lower number of interviews? fewer academic program invites?) would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. Scores are scores and open doors, but it is part of the application, not the application.

Step is a more difficult exam and the quality of the pool of test takers is stronger, for sure. But in your fantasy-world premise of a USMLE-only board exam, I believe many of the DO students would be able to meet the elevated expectations and achieve the passing score that the specific individual needs in order match at a program they want to train, despite the USMLE performance gap.
Why are you even playing in his fantasy. The data doesn't support his position at all, and you are acting like it is true. There is no performance gap on the USMLE, we have the exact same first time pass rate as USMD's.
 

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Why are you even playing in his fantasy. The data doesn't support his position at all, and you are acting like it is true. There is no performance gap on the USMLE, we have the exact same first time pass rate as USMD's.
You're comparing the performance of 100% of MD students with that of the 60% of DO students who opted to take the Step 1 exam. When comparing these two groups, the board passage rate is about the same and the average Step 1 score is only 6 points lower for the latter. However, let's not ignore the remaining 40% of DO students, many of whom were not academically prepared to take the Step exams; had they been confident in their ability to pass or achieve a respectable score on the Step exams, most would've reaped the enormous benefit of taking them.

If all of the DO students who currently opt to not take the Step exams were required to take them, both the DO board passage rate and the average Step scores would almost certainly decrease.
 
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Osminog

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Why are they at a DO school then? Lol
There's a wide range of reasons to attend a DO school. People go to DO school due to strong geographic preferences, immaturity during their early college years, an unlucky MD cycle, a desire to follow a family tradition, etc.

However, it's undeniable that a non-insignificant number of people go to DO school because they didn't have the academic ability to achieve the credentials required for MD admission. Most of the students who fall into this category aren't able to suddenly overcome the deficiencies that affected them while they were undergraduates.

I don't want to paint in broad strokes, because I think there are plenty of bright, hardworking DO students who will become superb physicians. But if we look at overall averages, we will inevitably notice differences in academic ability.
 

Deecee2DO

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Why are they at a DO school then? Lol
Plenty of reasons. Didnt feel like studying pointless BS information on the MCAT just to get a 510+ when its a useless exam. Messed up their college years because of an external circumstance, were immature or simply wanted to enjoy college before real adulting. Location. Scholarships-my roommate in med school was accepted at UCLA and got a full ride to our school. Maybe they actually resonate with DO philosophy (rare but there are some) and chose DO over MD. The differences in avg Step scores for both students are negligible (very close) for those that take step as DO students which is now the majority. Maybe they know they wanted to do primary care and thus didnt feel the need to study the pointless exam known as the MCAT to score a 510+ as noted before. I literally studied for the MCAT just enough to get over a 500 and was accepted back in 2017. In order for a DO to compete with MD for res spot we need to have better Step than MD counterparts that is the reality so Id rather bust my butt on an exam that tests knowledge that is exponentially more relevant and useful than study for MCAT physics and CARS. If someone handed me an MD acceptance i would have taken it in a heartbeat but didnt want to put in the effort in undergrad to do so (you can bet your butt I am putting in the effort now and it shows academically). Im fine with a DO degree-Ill be able to practice medicine in a specialty that is not derm or a surgical sub and im fine with that since i am leaning toward IM sub
 
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Many of my friends simply did not take USMLE due to the residency programs they wanted to attend not requiring it. Also, DO admin is usually pretty anti-Step. If they were supportive and we actually took NBMEs as our preclinical exams, professors taught more towards boards, and we didn’t have x amount of hours devoted to OMM then yeah our stats would be essentially the same give or take a few points for ALL 100% of DO students.
 

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However, it's undeniable that a non-insignificant number of people go to DO school because they didn't have the academic ability to achieve the credentials required for MD admission. Most of the students who fall into this category aren't able to suddenly overcome the deficiencies that affected them while they were undergraduates.

I don't want to paint in broad strokes....
Dude...you're fighting an uphill battle here. You pissed off quite a few people by saying/implying that DO students are often not as academically apt as their MD counterparts (or something of that ilk). You have no data to substantiate this claim. And you literally haven't even started school, so I'd guess most of the things you're saying are from SDN or some other second-hand source.

Honestly, just take the L and move on...
 
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Osminog

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Dude...you're fighting an uphill battle here. You pissed off quite a few people by saying/implying that DO students are often not as academically apt as their MD counterparts (or something of that ilk). You have no data to substantiate this claim. And you literally haven't even started school, so I'd guess most of the things you're saying are from SDN or some other second-hand source.

Honestly, just take the L and move on...
Oh, I pissed someone off? I guess I must be wrong then. Thanks for the advice.

As is typical when the SDN herd mentality goes into full effect, people have been completely misstating what I said, and I wanted to correct the record; that's the only reason I'm still here. Contrary to the many strawmen set up in this thread, I did not say that DO students are all academically inferior, I did not say DOs who only took the COMLEX fared poorly in past matches, and I did not say that the COMLEX's content is identical to the USMLE's.

I acknowledge that I was incorrect on two points: (1) that most DO students don't currently take the Steps (this turns out to be the case for Step 2 but not for Step 1), and (2) that the current DO student passage rate for the Steps is lower than that of MD students. I was using outdated data from a few years back, and I have been corrected.

If there ever comes a time when the COMLEX is eliminated and the USMLE becomes mandatory at DO schools, then I believe my suspicions will be proven correct. We'll see what happens if that day comes. If it doesn't, then this discussion is futile. This will be my final post in this thread.
 
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sunshinefl

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The latest data we have show that most DO students take Step 1 (60%), but a majority still don't take Step 2-CK.

DO students are, on average, less academically talented than their MD counterparts. Like I said, there are some truly phenomenal DO students and some horrendous MD students; I was strictly talking about averages.

In the 2018 match, the average Step 1 score for US MD students was 232. The average Step 1 score for DO students was 226. These averages are comprised of the scores of virtually 100% of US MD students and only 60% of DO students. Many of the remaining 40% of DO students opted to not take the Step 1 exam because they didn't feel academically ready to do so. There's strong reason to believe that the already present gap between MD and DO student board scores would widen drastically if these 40% of DO students were compelled to take the USMLE exams.
•or because they didn’t want to prepare for, pay for, and take 2 separate sets on boards
•there’s confounding factors to averages that have nothing to do with this “academic talent” you keep bringing up. Feel free to do a study randomly assigning students to DO or MD and see if having the curriculum of the DO school, the support of the DO school, the required hours for OMM each week, having to take COMLEX, etc has any effect on step 1 scores in addition to “academic talent”

You're comparing the performance of 100% of MD students with that of the 60% of DO students who opted to take the Step 1 exam. When comparing these two groups, the board passage rate is about the same and the average Step 1 score is only 8 points lower for the latter. However, let's not ignore the remaining 40% of DO students, many of whom were not academically prepared to take the Step exams; had they been confident in their ability to pass or achieve a respectable score on the Step exams, most would've reaped the enormous benefit of taking them.

If all of the DO students who currently opt to not take the Step exams were required to take them, both the DO board passage rate and the average Step scores would almost certainly decrease.
•Speculation

•going off your own post, 232-226=6 (not 8). Again, your own unsourced data contradicts each other.
 

EspressoDrip42

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I'm gonna be real with you:

If they ditched COMLEX and had just an OMM portion that cost us exactly the same (i.e. money-grubbing AOA made the same off of us), I'd be all for that. Even if they made it cost more. Just don't make us take both.
What they should do is make the OMM-specific exam only indicated for NMM residency programs, as an entrance exam. Like, you have to take it if you plan to apply to NMM programs.

Then every DO/MD student is required to take the unified step. Make DO's learn OMM at their school and get tested on it during the first two years. And allow MDs who want, to pay themselves and take the OMM exam if they're interested in NMM programs.

That would be ideal.