Aug 8, 2013
20
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
I was browsing the ECFMG charting outcomes (page 28) for the 2014 match and noticed that Israel matches highest among all foreign schools (by a long shot) and better than the aggregate osteopathic match via the NRMP (~83%). I also looked at some of the residency placements for these schools (Sackler, BenGurion, Technion, ect) and found that they are generally much more competitive and renown relative to DO placements and some lower tier MD schools.

Anyone have some feedback on this?
 

Law2Doc

5K+ Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
Dec 20, 2004
30,977
9,949
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
First, im not sure you can totally trust the reporting/accounting of schools outside the US. How high is attrition? What kind of internal hurdles do you have to meet to even be allowed to sit for steps or apply for the match? There may be judicious cuts going on behind the scenes to get good end results. If in fact the numbers are better, which im pretty skeptical of given the number of Israeli grads I've come across in real life (0) -- Im guessing they tend to be popular with a fairly small handful of programs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Sep 24, 2015
1
2
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
The adage MD>DO>IMG usually just applies to Caribbean schools. You're definitely better off going to a decent US MD school but when it comes to choosing between DO and a school in a country like Israel, it gets a bit tough. First of all, Israel is a tech hub and their research is almost unparalleled. From what I understand, their class sizes are quite small (10-60) and generally selective. The fact that they have state accreditation in places like NY and have a heavy presence on the eastern seaboard allots them the flexibility of having a highly competitive pool of applicants. Anecdotally, the people that I knew that decided to go to Sackler (at Tel Aviv University) were admitted to US schools (one MD and one DO) but decided to go to Israel anyway because 1) they had family there 2) the possibility of matching into strong MD programs was more or less higher from Sackler compared to DO 3) the MD school they were admitted to did not have a heavy research presence. These schools are not cash-cows like the Caribbean programs and the fact that the students are able to do their clinical rotations in Israeli hospitals and still match is a testament to the countries healthcare system.

But you also have to take into consideration that DO schools are a fledging trend. Many osteopathic applicants don't opt to take the USMLE and instead go for the COMLEX, making them eligible only for DO residencies in DO hospitals, and some MD residencies that accept the COMLEX. Though these programs aren't reputable, per se, the physicians go on to have great careers. I think the DO option is "SAFER" relative to the IMG option if you're talking about IMG's as a group, but I also think that Israeli schools are likely to give you a more complete and research oriented medical education. Then again, that will not necessarily mean much if your residency director is not familiar with the school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
About the Ads

bc65

7+ Year Member
Oct 16, 2013
824
1,425
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
The adage MD>DO>IMG usually just applies to Caribbean schools.

This.

Israeli medical schools are of similar quality to US schools, though I don't know exactly where they would rank in direct comparison.

More importantly, the 3 Israeli schools you mentioned are all "chartered by the State of NY", which I believe means that the graduates of those schools are treated as if they had graduated from US schools for the purposes of licensing in NY state. This probably makes it easier for them to match into NY programs They still must pass the Step exams, of course. Perhaps someone with more specific knowledge could clarify this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

mimelim

Vascular Surgery
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
4,878
14,403
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I think we can agree that an Israeli FMG graduating from the listed Israeli medical schools will have a better chance of matching into US than a US IMG graduating from said schools.

Why is that? I would have thought the opposite, less visa issues.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

WingedOx

Unofficial Froopyland Forum Mod.
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
7,268
11,238
Let's call it a World Cup hiatus...
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
This.

Israeli medical schools are of similar quality to US schools, though I don't know exactly where they would rank in direct comparison.

More importantly, the 3 Israeli schools you mentioned are all "chartered by the State of NY", which I believe means that the graduates of those schools are treated as if they had graduated from US schools for the purposes of licensing in NY state. This probably makes it easier for them to match into NY programs They still must pass the Step exams, of course. Perhaps someone with more specific knowledge could clarify this.

As you said, there's a licensing hurdle that's removed, but people on SDN talk about schools like Sackler as if they're "treated equally" to US grads or "on equal footing" with US grads when it comes to the match, which quite simply isn't true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Lawpy

27 boxes
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
52,499
139,733
Replacement Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
Why is that? I would have thought the opposite, less visa issues.

I'm a little lost. Could you explain? I was just basing on the consensus that it is always better for US students to attend medical school in the US rather than overseas regardless of the quality of overseas schools. Foreign FMGs from good schools overseas who match into US residency programs tend to be among the best, hence why foreign FMG > US IMG
 

gonnif

Rule One: Take a Breath
10+ Year Member
Jul 26, 2009
23,295
38,088
The Big Bad Apple
Status (Visible)
  1. Non-Student
The Israeli schools are a particular and special case that, because of their history, have matching more in line with a typical New York State school than other off-shore schools. In the early late 1960s/early 1970s, New York State was looking for ways to provide more physicians, particularly for New York City, which runs the largest municipal hospital system in the US. It was decided that building new medical schools, recruiting faculty, etc, would be not be the most efficient mechanism. Part of this has to do with then Governor Nelson Rockefeller who spent significant money growing the SUNY system, particularly Stony Brook and the other universities centers. With the large Jewish population in New York, and the political, academic, financial, and other "power" this population represented in the city, they were able to develop and implement a method where New York "certified" (ie informally chartered), I believe, 2 existing Israeli Medical schools for training and practice in the state. This was prior to either Ross and SGU existing. I think UAG in Mexico, which itself is a long standing medical school, had recently started having significant numbers of US students attending looking to directly return to the United States. The Israeli schools developed clinical rotations almost exclusively in the New York City area. They have been, in many ways, considered New York medical schools by the hospitals and physicians in the city and have been since the mid-1970s. With New York, at one point, having a full third of doctors in training, either in medical school, residency, or fellowship, there is a long standing acceptance of these Israeli medical graduates as essentially US trained doctors. So doctors who went thru school in the 1970s-90s and who are now in top positions of academic and hospitals have this as part of their culture and acceptance. So it gets passed on in that sense. Other off-shore schools, such as Ross and SGU, did not start as off-shoots of long-standing and existing universities and medical schools, but appeared as for profit entities during this time frame. So they dont have the same "cultural" standing, in my view.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Jan 22, 2015
183
78
The Israeli schools are a particular and special case that, because of their history, have matching more in line with a typical New York State school than other off-shore schools. In the early late 1960s/early 1970s, New York State was looking for ways to provide more physicians, particularly for New York City, which runs the largest municipal hospital system in the US. It was decided that building new medical schools, recruiting faculty, etc, would be not be the most efficient mechanism. Part of this has to do with then Governor Nelson Rockefeller who spent significant money growing the SUNY system, particularly Stony Brook and the other universities centers. With the large Jewish population in New York, and the political, academic, financial, and other "power" this population represented in the city, they were able to develop and implement a method where New York "certified" (ie informally chartered), I believe, 2 existing Israeli Medical schools for training and practice in the state. This was prior to either Ross and SGU existing. I think UAG in Mexico, which itself is a long standing medical school, had recently started having significant numbers of US students attending looking to directly return to the United States. The Israeli schools developed clinical rotations almost exclusively in the New York City area. They have been, in many ways, considered New York medical schools by the hospitals and physicians in the city and have been since the mid-1970s. With New York, at one point, having a full third of doctors in training, either in medical school, residency, or fellowship, there is a long standing acceptance of these Israeli medical graduates as essentially US trained doctors. So doctors who went thru school in the 1970s-90s and who are now in top positions of academic and hospitals have this as part of their culture and acceptance. So it gets passed on in that sense. Other off-shore schools, such as Ross and SGU, did not start as off-shoots of long-standing and existing universities and medical schools, but appeared as for profit entities during this time frame. So they dont have the same "cultural" standing, in my view.

wow, and i thought the jews of new york were powerful by siphoning public funds to jewish charter schools. i didn't know they created essentially charter medical schools that cater primarily to jews.

we also have "historically black" medical schools that basically only accept african americans. i wonder when we will have asian medicals schools or latino medical schools.
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
7+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
37,134
70,488
4th Dimension
I think we can agree that an Israeli FMG graduating from the listed Israeli medical schools will have a better chance of matching into US than a US IMG graduating from said schools.
Actually USIMGs stand a better chance than FMGs from Israeli schools. These schools have a very special and particular place in medical education, with a unique charter from New York state that was designed to create more opportunities for citizens of New York to go to medical school back when there were not enough decent schools in the United States. Due to this, they have an excellent reputation, substantially increased opportunities versus typical IMGs or FMGs, and very strong ties to many NY residencies.

As to their match rate being higher than DOs, keep in mind that the DO match rate is much lower than the actual residency placement rate of DOs. Many DOs are pulled out of the match or never complete a rank list because they match on the DO side of things, which makes our match rates look much lower. We had two students that didn't match last year between the two matches, to give you an idea.

http://www.une.edu/com/admissions/information/graduate-medical-education-and-comlex-results
 

mimelim

Vascular Surgery
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
4,878
14,403
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I'm a little lost. Could you explain? I was just basing on the consensus that it is always better for US students to attend medical school in the US rather than overseas regardless of the quality of overseas schools. Foreign FMGs from good schools overseas who match into US residency programs tend to be among the best, hence why foreign FMG > US IMG

Actually USIMGs stand a better chance than FMGs from Israeli schools. These schools have a very special and particular place in medical education, with a unique charter from New York state that was designed to create more opportunities for citizens of New York to go to medical school back when there were not enough decent schools in the United States. Due to this, they have an excellent reputation, substantially increased opportunities versus typical IMGs or FMGs, and very strong ties to many NY residencies.

As to their match rate being higher than DOs, keep in mind that the DO match rate is much lower than the actual residency placement rate of DOs. Many DOs are pulled out of the match or never complete a rank list because they match on the DO side of things, which makes our match rates look much lower. We had two students that didn't match last year between the two matches, to give you an idea.

http://www.une.edu/com/admissions/information/graduate-medical-education-and-comlex-results

@Mad Jack I think you and I misread Lawper's post. I think he was saying that an Israeli from Sackler had a better chance of matching than an US citizen graduating from the Caribbean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
About the Ads

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
7+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
37,134
70,488
4th Dimension
@Mad Jack I think you and I misread Lawper's post. I think he was saying that an Israeli from Sackler had a better chance of matching than an US citizen graduating from the Caribbean.
Oh. It was a rough interprofessional mixer tonight, if you know what I'm sayin'. Might be a little bit buzzed.

Friends don't let friends drink and post, kids.
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
7+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
37,134
70,488
4th Dimension
Lucky for you, you have an excuse. I'm sober in a call room and didn't get it. ;)
Wait, wait. I reread the post I was replying to and stand by my statement. He said an Israeli student from there would match better than a US student going to the same school. That's totally not the case, as the exception for New York only applies to students from the state of New York, and thus they'd lose a huge advantage.
 

mimelim

Vascular Surgery
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
4,878
14,403
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Wait, wait. I reread the post I was replying to and stand by my statement. He said an Israeli student from there would match better than a US student going to the same school. That's totally not the case, as the exception for New York only applies to students from the state of New York, and thus they'd lose a huge advantage.

Nah, he says, "said schools", which I (like you) took to mean US citizen vs. Israeli citizen at Sackler, but I think he was referring to the earlier posters talking about the Caribbean. But, whatever, I'm sure he can clarify later ;). I really think we are all saying the same thing.

And with that, I'm exiting stage left.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
7+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
37,134
70,488
4th Dimension
Nah, he says, "said schools", which I (like you) took to mean US citizen vs. Israeli citizen at Sackler, but I think he was referring to the earlier posters talking about the Caribbean. But, whatever, I'm sure he can clarify later ;). I really think we are all saying the same thing.

And with that, I'm exiting stage left.
Oh, you're right! Gnight, in any case lol.
 

Lawpy

27 boxes
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
52,499
139,733
Replacement Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
@Mad Jack I think you and I misread Lawper's post. I think he was saying that an Israeli from Sackler had a better chance of matching than an US citizen graduating from the Caribbean.

No. An Israeli from Sackler has a better chance of matching than a US citizen graduating from Sackler

Nah, he says, "said schools", which I (like you) took to mean US citizen vs. Israeli citizen at Sackler, but I think he was referring to the earlier posters talking about the Caribbean. But, whatever, I'm sure he can clarify later ;). I really think we are all saying the same thing.

And with that, I'm exiting stage left.

I was actually referring to that all along.


Actually USIMGs stand a better chance than FMGs from Israeli schools. These schools have a very special and particular place in medical education, with a unique charter from New York state that was designed to create more opportunities for citizens of New York to go to medical school back when there were not enough decent schools in the United States. Due to this, they have an excellent reputation, substantially increased opportunities versus typical IMGs or FMGs, and very strong ties to many NY residencies.

As to their match rate being higher than DOs, keep in mind that the DO match rate is much lower than the actual residency placement rate of DOs. Many DOs are pulled out of the match or never complete a rank list because they match on the DO side of things, which makes our match rates look much lower. We had two students that didn't match last year between the two matches, to give you an idea.

http://www.une.edu/com/admissions/information/graduate-medical-education-and-comlex-results

That is extremely counterintuitive. Next thing i'll see is US IMG from Duke-NUS has a better chance of matching than a Singaporean FMG from NUS
 

gonnif

Rule One: Take a Breath
10+ Year Member
Jul 26, 2009
23,295
38,088
The Big Bad Apple
Status (Visible)
  1. Non-Student
Most of the students coming out of the Israeli schools are either US citizens or dual US/Israeli citizens.
wow, and i thought the jews of new york were powerful by siphoning public funds to jewish charter schools. i didn't know they created essentially charter medical schools that cater primarily to jews.

It was really filling a vaccum as Nelson Rockefeller couldnt get any more money for SUNY to create more medical schools. BTW, the Governor was instrumental in getting some $400 million to help start the NYCOM (Osteopathic) as well as pressure on the medical board to allow both DO and DPM hospital privileges.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Lawpy

27 boxes
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
52,499
139,733
Replacement Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
Most of the students coming out of the Israeli schools are either US citizens or dual US/Israeli citizens.


It was really filling a vaccum as Nelson Rockefeller couldnt get any more money for SUNY to create more medical schools. BTW, the Governor was instrumental in getting some $400 million to help start the NYCOM (Osteopathic) as well as pressure on the medical board to allow both DO and DPM hospital privileges.

Are there any other international programs that form such deals? Because in that regard, those who attend Israeli schools really cannot be classified as IMGs.
 

Lawpy

27 boxes
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
52,499
139,733
Replacement Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
Deals as in being "chartered" by NY State and primarily being clinically trained in NY?

Doesn't have to be NY. But yes. Basically, any state or university that has chartered deals with international medical institutions. Because it seems those like Duke-NUS belong to a similar category like Israeli schools.
 
About the Ads

Goro

SDN Gold Donor
10+ Year Member
Jun 10, 2010
64,489
97,251
Somewhere west of St. Louis
Status (Visible)
  1. Non-Student
Technically, one could say that the four Puerto Rican schools (all LCME acredited) are Latino schools.

I'm pleased to point out that we already do have Asian medical schools. They include "every medical school in the US", because if you look at matriculant demographics in MSAR, asians make up 13rd of the class at every school. At my own school is's > 40% this year. Even the HBCs have 10% of their classes being Asian! Let's see "Rocky" pull that off! (@gonnif will get the historical reference)

we also have "historically black" medical schools that basically only accept african americans. i wonder when we will have asian medicals schools or latino medical schools.
 
Nov 19, 2013
114
95
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student (Accepted)
wow, and i thought the jews of new york were powerful by siphoning public funds to jewish charter schools. i didn't know they created essentially charter medical schools that cater primarily to jews.

we also have "historically black" medical schools that basically only accept african americans. i wonder when we will have asian medicals schools or latino medical schools.

I'm sorry, I found this particularly offensive.

First, it's an extremely small proportion of Jews that siphon public funds for their charter schools. The vast majority of Jews find the behavior of those few communities despicable. We're not one homogenous block and we're not out for your money or power. It's disgusting that you imply that. Is it considered "siphoning public funds" when public schools in evangelical parts of Kentucky teach creationism? The Jewish communities that do this are our version of fundamentalists, and they are the vast minority.

Second, the partnerships with Israeli schools were created in a time when most medical schools would not admit Jews. It wasn't so long ago that Mt Sinai was New York Jewish Hospital and Barnes Jewish (WashU) was simply Jewish Hospital. There was nowhere else for them to train until late in the civil rights movement. The total acceptance of Jews in USMD programs has corresponded to a decrease in the ability of US grads from Israeli programs to match into competitive residencies. They're a figment of a prior time, but since they're accredited and have great clinical partnerships, they still work quite well. Most of their students rotate in the US for their 3rd and 4th years (source: I know multiple people who did Sackler and Technion).

Finally, gaining admission to these programs is harder than for carribean/Puerto Rican schools. They are small. The average MCAT is usually 28-30 and the average gpa is quite high. I had a friend from a top undergrad get a huge scholarship to SGU, but he got rejected from Sackler post-interview.

That's my piece. Go educate yourself. I had a co-interviewee at a tippity top USMD tell me that Jews were less religious because we were affluent. Unfortunately, they don't teach premeds about cultural awareness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

bc65

7+ Year Member
Oct 16, 2013
824
1,425
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
wow, and i thought the jews of new york were powerful by siphoning public funds to jewish charter schools. i didn't know they created essentially charter medical schools that cater primarily to jews.

we also have "historically black" medical schools that basically only accept african americans. i wonder when we will have asian medicals schools or latino medical schools

There are historically black schools because African-Americans were almost completely excluded from higher education in the US until the 1960's. There are Jewish hospitals and Jewish medical schools because there were quotas limiting Jews from colleges and medical schools until the 1950's and perhaps the 1960's. Jewish doctors couldn't get privileges to practice at most hospitals, so they were forced to start their own. As noted by @Goro, whose post just beat me to it, the Puerto Rican medical schools are "Latino" medical schools.

There is no need for Asian medical schools because there is no under-representation of Asians in US medical schools, rather, there is over-representation. There is no significant historic discrimination against Asians in higher education ( although anti-Chinese and anti-Japanese legal discrimination certainly existed in the 19th century and through World War II ).

wow, and i thought the jews of new york were powerful by siphoning public funds to jewish charter schools. i didn't know they created essentially charter medical schools that cater primarily to jews.

The Governor of NY set up those charters. This was a way to get more doctors into NY. This involved recognizing foreign schools, and did not cost any US taxpayer money. This was similar to the "Fifth Pathway " program set up at around the same time, a program which did not involve the "powerful jews of new york" that populate your racist conspiracy theory fantasies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

bc65

7+ Year Member
Oct 16, 2013
824
1,425
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Are there any other international programs that form such deals?

The "Fifth Pathway" set up in 1971 is quite similar. It involved US citizens who graduated from foreign medical schools ( mostly Guadalajara back then , I believe ) to do an extra 5th year of US rotations through a US medical school, and then qualify for the match.
 

mimelim

Vascular Surgery
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
4,878
14,403
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I'm sorry, I found this particularly offensive.

First, it's an extremely small proportion of Jews that siphon public funds for their charter schools. The vast majority of Jews find the behavior of those few communities despicable. We're not one homogenous block and we're not out for your money or power. It's disgusting that you imply that. Is it considered "siphoning public funds" when public schools in evangelical parts of Kentucky teach creationism? The Jewish communities that do this are our version of fundamentalists, and they are the vast minority.

Second, the partnerships with Israeli schools were created in a time when most medical schools would not admit Jews. It wasn't so long ago that Mt Sinai was New York Jewish Hospital and Barnes Jewish (WashU) was simply Jewish Hospital. There was nowhere else for them to train until late in the civil rights movement. The total acceptance of Jews in USMD programs has corresponded to a decrease in the ability of US grads from Israeli programs to match into competitive residencies. They're a figment of a prior time, but since they're accredited and have great clinical partnerships, they still work quite well. Most of their students rotate in the US for their 3rd and 4th years (source: I know multiple people who did Sackler and Technion).

Finally, gaining admission to these programs is harder than for carribean/Puerto Rican schools. They are small. The average MCAT is usually 28-30 and the average gpa is quite high. I had a friend from a top undergrad get a huge scholarship to SGU, but he got rejected from Sackler post-interview.

That's my piece. Go educate yourself. I had a co-interviewee at a tippity top USMD tell me that Jews were less religious because we were affluent. Unfortunately, they don't teach premeds about cultural awareness.

Okay, lets set a couple of things right before you get too revisionist about your history. Especially if you are going to be pontificating and telling people to "go educate yourself". Having spent most of my life in St. Louis and spending an inordinate amount of time in/around Barnes (also having been born there for that matter)...

Barnes Jewish Hospital was not "simply Jewish Hospital." In 1996 Barnes Hospital and Jewish Hospital merged. The current Barnes Jewish Hospital is where the original Barnes hospital was and the large buildings are from the old Barnes hospital. Jewish Hospital was founded in a different part of St. Louis and subsequently moved several blocks from Barnes in 1927. By the 1970s Barnes was among the largest hospitals in the country. Prior to the merger, Barnes was the far more established hospital.

Jewish hospital was not created because medical schools would not admit Jews. While you don't explicitly state this, following the first sentence with discussion of Mt. Sinai and Jewish Hospital certainly implies this. Jewish Hospital was created in 1902 to serve the St. Louis community at large, but was funded and run by members of the St. Louis Jewish community. It had nothing to do with medical school admissions or persecution of or discrimination against Jews.

Further still, Jews in the US have always faced a lot of discrimination. But, "Most medical schools would not admit Jews"? Can you quote some evidence that shows this? Sackler was founded in 1976, Technion in 1969. There was a paper written in 1952 about discrimination against Jews in medical school admissions by Bloomgarden (which sounds eerily like what Asian-Americans are going through now) that specifically talks about discrimination going back to the 1930s, but never once mentions blanket bans on Jews.

Misinformation = bad. Especially if you are trying to argue with people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

gonnif

Rule One: Take a Breath
10+ Year Member
Jul 26, 2009
23,295
38,088
The Big Bad Apple
Status (Visible)
  1. Non-Student
The Governor of NY set up those charters. This was a way to get more doctors into NY. This involved recognizing foreign schools, and did not cost any US taxpayer money. This was similar to the "Fifth Pathway " program set up at around the same time, a program which did not involve the "powerful jews of new york" that populate your racist conspiracy theory fantasies.

The "Fifth Pathway" set up in 1971 is quite similar. It involved US citizens who graduated from foreign medical schools ( mostly Guadalajara back then , I believe ) to do an extra 5th year of US rotations through a US medical school, and then qualify for the match.

I believe that UAG is the only school left that still uses 5th pathway extensively
 

bc65

7+ Year Member
Oct 16, 2013
824
1,425
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
There was a paper written in 1952 about discrimination against Jews in medical school admissions by Bloomgarden (which sounds eerily like what Asian-Americans are going through now) that specifically talks about discrimination going back to the 1930s, but never once mentions blanket bans on Jews.

In 1922 the president of Harvard proposed a quota limiting Jewish enrollment. At that time, Jewish students comprised 22% of the student body, and 3% of the population. They were also winning most of the academic prizes. The proposal was to limit them to 15% of the student body, but that was rejected in favor of a plan to take fewer "urban" students. This had the effect of lowering Jewish enrollment to 15% ( a coincidence?) . Jewish students were not admitted to the top undergraduate schools without regard to their backgrounds until the 1970's, I believe, or perhaps even into the early 1980's. ( purely my impression and entirely anecdotal, I will concede ) I suspect that the schools gave up on discriminating against Jews when the wave of Asians started flowing in. At that point Jews were the least of their problems.

I must confess though, that I too had thought that the quotas limited Jewish enrollment to their percentage in the population or below. I was surprised to find that Jewish enrollment was so high back then. So, thank you @mimelim for prompting me do a little research.

I suspect that many schools had quotas or bans, but it would be difficult to prove it, as these were rarely as blatant as Harvard's public acknowledgement of their attempt.

Jews were also denied admission to hotels, clubs, etc. The identification would be done by name or appearance. For some background, see for example the Wikipedia entry about the movie "Gentleman's Agreement", the Academy award winner in 1947. It was produced by Daryl Zanuk, who was not Jewish, but Jewish producers asked him not to make the film because they feared it might cause more anti-Semitism. The star, Gregory Peck, was advised against taking the role because he might be identified with Jews and thus it would hurt his box office appeal.

Many property deeds still have clauses that stipulate that the property may not be sold to non-whites ( i.e. balcks and Asians) and/or non-Christians ( i.e. Jews). Sometimes Jews were referred to as Asiatics. While the clauses are null and void by law, they often can't be removed, and so are still present in many deeds. Look for them if you buy a house more than 60 years old.

You are not likely to find any solid documentation of this discrimination for medical schools, since it was usually unofficial. I don't think we could ever find the detailed application statistics going back that far to see how applicants with Jewish names did compared to the general applicant, but the anecdotal evidence is compelling. For example, Stanley Kaplan, the founder of Kaplan's test prep, became a teacher, and later founded the test prep industry, because he was denied admission to medical school, ( in the 1950's ? ) despite competitive grades. He attributed his rejection to his being Jewish. Is this dispositive evidence? No, but again, I think when taken in aggregate, it's compelling. Just as today, we recognize that Asians need higher scores to get into med school, and URMs need lower scores, so too, Jewish applicants needed far higher scores then.

It is somewhat similar to the discrimination experienced by Asians today. A brief search showed Asians at 5% of the population and 20% of medical school enrollment, with Asians needing higher scores to achieve admission to med school. These are strikingly similar to the Harvard undergrad statistics for Jews in 1922.
Asians also suffered discrimination in California in various ways, including immigration discrimination and bans on owning land, not to mention the internment camps of World War II for Japanese Americans.

Of course, this all pales before the discrimination suffered by Americans of African descent, but that's not the topic at the moment. By the way, some states excluded black doctors from the AMA until 1968. Those states that did admit them, listed them as "colored".

Jewish hospital was not created because medical schools would not admit Jews. While you don't explicitly state this, following the first sentence with discussion of Mt. Sinai and Jewish Hospital certainly implies this. Jewish Hospital was created in 1902 to serve the St. Louis community at large, but was funded and run by members of the St. Louis Jewish community

Maybe, maybe not. But generally, Jewish hospitals ( and to some extent, all hospitals with a religion in their name ) were founded to meet several needs. First, to provide charity care for indigent members of their own community. Second, to provide a comfortable environment for patients with unique dietary and social needs, and finally, to provide a place for Jewish doctors to practice and train, since so many other hospitals excluded them or limited the number of Jewish doctors given privileges.

It may very well be the case the Jewish Hospital was founded in 1902 solely to provide care for the entire population of St. Louis, but please forgive me if I don't believe that public relations material that we may find on a website in 2015 is an accurate reflection of the realities that faced a minority over 100 years ago. Even if that's what they said publicly in 1902, it's not likely an full reflection of the situation at that time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

gonnif

Rule One: Take a Breath
10+ Year Member
Jul 26, 2009
23,295
38,088
The Big Bad Apple
Status (Visible)
  1. Non-Student
The best way to look at DO stats is to look at their overall placement rates (i.e. combined rates of matching in the AOA Match and the ACGME match and the post-match SOAP/scramble). In this regards, DO programs place over 95% of their graduates into residency programs and will lose their accreditation if they fail to do so.


DO 2015 Match.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Nov 19, 2013
114
95
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student (Accepted)
In 1922 the president of Harvard proposed a quota limiting Jewish enrollment. At that time, Jewish students comprised 22% of the student body, and 3% of the population. They were also winning most of the academic prizes. The proposal was to limit them to 15% of the student body, but that was rejected in favor of a plan to take fewer "urban" students. This had the effect of lowering Jewish enrollment to 15% ( a coincidence?) . Jewish students were not admitted to the top undergraduate schools without regard to their backgrounds until the 1970's, I believe, or perhaps even into the early 1980's. ( purely my impression and entirely anecdotal, I will concede ) I suspect that the schools gave up on discriminating against Jews when the wave of Asians started flowing in. At that point Jews were the least of their problems.

I must confess though, that I too had thought that the quotas limited Jewish enrollment to their percentage in the population or below. I was surprised to find that Jewish enrollment was so high back then. So, thank you @mimelim for prompting me do a little research.

I suspect that many schools had quotas or bans, but it would be difficult to prove it, as these were rarely as blatant as Harvard's public acknowledgement of their attempt.

Jews were also denied admission to hotels, clubs, etc. The identification would be done by name or appearance. For some background, see for example the Wikipedia entry about the movie "Gentleman's Agreement", the Academy award winner in 1947. It was produced by Daryl Zanuk, who was not Jewish, but Jewish producers asked him not to make the film because they feared it might cause more anti-Semitism. The star, Gregory Peck, was advised against taking the role because he might be identified with Jews and thus it would hurt his box office appeal.

Many property deeds still have clauses that stipulate that the property may not be sold to non-whites ( i.e. balcks and Asians) and/or non-Christians ( i.e. Jews). Sometimes Jews were referred to as Asiatics. While the clauses are null and void by law, they often can't be removed, and so are still present in many deeds. Look for them if you buy a house more than 60 years old.

You are not likely to find any solid documentation of this discrimination for medical schools, since it was usually unofficial. I don't think we could ever find the detailed application statistics going back that far to see how applicants with Jewish names did compared to the general applicant, but the anecdotal evidence is compelling. For example, Stanley Kaplan, the founder of Kaplan's test prep, became a teacher, and later founded the test prep industry, because he was denied admission to medical school, ( in the 1950's ? ) despite competitive grades. He attributed his rejection to his being Jewish. Is this dispositive evidence? No, but again, I think when taken in aggregate, it's compelling. Just as today, we recognize that Asians need higher scores to get into med school, and URMs need lower scores, so too, Jewish applicants needed far higher scores then.

It is somewhat similar to the discrimination experienced by Asians today. A brief search showed Asians at 5% of the population and 20% of medical school enrollment, with Asians needing higher scores to achieve admission to med school. These are strikingly similar to the Harvard undergrad statistics for Jews in 1922.
Asians also suffered discrimination in California in various ways, including immigration discrimination and bans on owning land, not to mention the internment camps of World War II for Japanese Americans.

Of course, this all pales before the discrimination suffered by Americans of African descent, but that's not the topic at the moment. By the way, some states excluded black doctors from the AMA until 1968. Those states that did admit them, listed them as "colored".



Maybe, maybe not. But generally, Jewish hospitals ( and to some extent, all hospitals with a religion in their name ) were founded to meet several needs. First, to provide charity care for indigent members of their own community. Second, to provide a comfortable environment for patients with unique dietary and social needs, and finally, to provide a place for Jewish doctors to practice and train, since so many other hospitals excluded them or limited the number of Jewish doctors given privileges.

It may very well be the case the Jewish Hospital was founded in 1902 solely to provide care for the entire population of St. Louis, but please forgive me if I don't believe that public relations material that we may find on a website in 2015 is an accurate reflection of the realities that faced a minority over 100 years ago. Even if that's what they said publicly in 1902, it's not likely an full reflection of the situation at that time.


Really could not have said it better.

I was born in Jewish hospital. Both my parents were born in Jewish hospital. Their parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, and nephews teach/taught/studied at WashU and Barnes, so forgive me if I have a slightly different perspective on the history of WashU and Jewish hospital. However, Mimelim was absolutely right that Barnes existed before the merger.

I only want to add that if you read House of God, which is more auto-biographical than not, you might miss a certain vignette where the protagonist is told that he was denied a spot at the Brig because he was Jewish. Instead he was placed at BID (the outgrowth of Deaconess and BI, the latter of which was a Jewish hospital). The book takes place in the 70's.

You won't find solid evidence of this discrimination because who's looking for it? Few Jews dispute it, so we don't need to prove it to ourselves. No one else has any reason to expose it. The least we can do it be more sympathetic to the plight of Asian-American applicants, who are facing an unfair level of discrimination that we'll all soon be ashamed of. At least its more out in the open than it used to be. We should also do more about the stereotype threat that URMs face throughout college and the application process.

On a similar note:
If you really want to move halfway across the globe to go to medical school in foreign country, go ahead. Its not like there aren't Christians/Buddhists/Muslims/younameit in Israel. I will say that all of the people I know who ended up in those programs had family there. Its not a way for Jewish applicants to cheat. Most of my Jewish friends would much rather go DO, Caribbean, or skip medicine altogether than spend 4 years as a stranger in a strange land. And it is a strange land.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

bc65

7+ Year Member
Oct 16, 2013
824
1,425
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
But, "Most medical schools would not admit Jews"? Can you quote some evidence that shows this?

You are correct, the poster you quoted has no evidence for that specific allegation. But 90% of that claim is correct. As figures below will show, the Jewish acceptance rate to medical school was 10% of that of non-Jews at both Cornell and Yale. I could probably find more data if I tried. So, while the poster was guilty of exaggeration, much of that claim was accurate. At least at Cornell and Yale, 90% of qualified Jewish applicants were rejected, although to be sure, that's not the full 100%.

But again, seriously, thanks for getting me to look up the information. It was worth the effort.

See below:
From the Bloomgarden article, 1953:

"How the theory operated in practice was graphically explained by Dean Ladd of the Cornell Medical School in a letter of 1940. He wrote: “Cornell Medical College admits a class of eighty each fall. It picks these men from about twelve hundred applicants of whom seven hundred or more are Jews. We limit the number of Jews admitted to each class to roughly the proportion of Jews in the population in this State, which is a higher proportion than any other part of the country. That means that we take in from 10-15 per cent Jews. The same qualifications hold in picking Jewish students as in picking Gentile students; that is, they are judged not only on the basis of scholarship, but on character, personality, leadership, etc.

“Mr.—had a number of good qualities, but in the opinion of the Admission Committee there were a number of Jewish applicants who applied to the Medical School who surpassed him in desirability.”

In other words, Jews and non-Jews were rated on separate scales. According to the Dean’s figures, 700 Jews and 500 non-Jews on an average applied every year. Of this number, approximately 10 Jews and 70 non-Jews were selected. A Jewish applicant to Cornell, therefore, had one chance in seventy of acceptance, a non-Jewish applicant, one in seven."

From Wikipedia, "Jewish Quota" regarding Yale Medical school. In 1935 Yale accepted 76 applicants out of 501 applicants. 71 non-Jews were accepted out of about 300 applicants. 5 Jews were accepted out of 200 Jewish applicants. The Dean is quoted as saying : "Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all." So, a 25% acceptance rate for "Gentiles", and a 2.5% acceptance rate for Jewish applicants. Again, not a 100% discrimination rate, just 90%.

Not a total ban, to be sure, but pretty close.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Aug 8, 2013
20
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Medical
This is getting out of control. I simply asked if anyone had some insight as to why Israeli students matched better than Osteopathic students in the match and somehow this managed to devolve into a diatribe of racial epithets and petty nonsense. I managed to contact the ECFMG and 2 Israeli schools. What we see on the ECFMG reports are indeed American students as the Israeli students have military requirements prior and subsequent to their medical studies (given the IDF's shortage of physicians).

Thank you to the first few of you who provided valuable insight on the history of Israeli schools. It seems like an excellent option.
 
This thread is more than 5 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.
About the Ads