Why do you think current M4s aren’t heeding the warnings of Anesthesia being “dead”?

[abolt18]

Suicide is because of the person. Not the job. There are a whole lot of worse jobs to do than anesthesia......

And yet, the rate of suicide amongst anesthesiologists is higher than any other specialty. As noted before, not necessarily causation but there is a definitive correlation. It is undeniable.

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[tennessee2244]

I have family in TN, nowhere as dumb as this clown

You started the fight.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I have family in TN, nowhere as dumb as this clown

dude settle down, thanks.

 

[seniormd]

OK, if you say

 

[seniormd]

This is the unfortunate truth. Looking beyond actual suicides and using that number as an indicator of basic dissatisfaction or unhappiness, the negatives of the specialty can not be overlooked by anyone considering it. The suicide rate is a red flag.

 

[deleted50478]

This is the unfortunate truth. Looking beyond actual suicides and using that number as an indicator of basic dissatisfaction or unhappiness, the negatives of the specialty can not be overlooked by anyone considering it. The suicide rate is a red flag.

I haven’t read up on this issue, but might the suicide rate have more to do with substance abuse rather than surgeons getting to chose start times, lying about emergency status, etc?

 

[deleted171991]

At least one study has shown that the most stressful thing in a job is... unpredictability. Rings a bell?

 

[aneftp]

A small sample. But the 6 people I have known who have committe suicide in anesthesia. All of them has some type of pre existing condition with alcohol. And yes. Even 1-2 drinks a night can count as addiction. If they drink it 5 out of 7 nights. It’s addiction. They can’t go more than 1-2 weeks with a drink.

 

[dannyboy1]

well it's certainly an interesting correlation if nothing else. Job stress is a known factor contributing to many suicides. Anesthesia has "lifestyle" because of work hours and $$$. It is also a job that signs you up to get pooped on by surgeons and administrators.

Oh, for gods sake. Let me ask the guy who is pumping my gas in the 20 degree weather. Or the girl bagging groceries. Waitresses struggling to get by. Think any of these people would not trade positions with us in a second. They aren’t sitting here contemplating suicide. An administrator or surgeon yelled and a normal person kills himself over this???? Please, look around and get some perspective. Find yourself working too much? Get a new job. You should be able to work mommy track or part time and easily pay the bills. We are incredibly fortunate to be in the position we are in...

 

[PieOHmy]

Oh, for gods sake. Let me ask the guy who is pumping my gas in the 20 degree weather. Or the girl bagging groceries. Waitresses struggling to get by. Think any of these people would not trade positions with us in a second. They aren’t sitting here contemplating suicide. An administrator or surgeon yelled and a normal person kills himself over this???? Please, look around and get some perspective. Find yourself working too much? Get a new job. You should be able to work mommy track or part time and easily pay the bills. We are incredibly fortunate to be in the position we are in...

The comparisons you made shows that you dont have a grasp of the environment that is modern anesthesia practice.

 

[dannyboy1]

The comparisons you made shows that you dont have a grasp of the environment that is modern anesthesia practice.

??? Well, I work as an attending anesthesiologist for an AMC. I treat it as what it is, a JOB, not a lifestyle. Sure do I deal with a$$hole surgeons? Of course. It’s part the job for which I am well compensated. I don’t work as much as some of my colleagues so I make a little less money. This is by choice. I still own a home, 2 cars in the driveway, easily pay my bills, am able to take vacations. and invest a decent amount every month. Please point out something that I’m missing....

 

[seniormd]

At least one study has shown that the most stressful thing in a job is... unpredictability. Rings a bell?

Yes, the unpredictability is stressful. Anesthesiologists are always having their chains jerked by many different people. No control over your schedule or life. Poor compensation for the call hours while waiting to be called. If you’re taking call from home you can fool yourself into believing that you can get things done. So often you start to do a household chore or run an errand or relax, your phone rings and you have to come in. Plus, you never know when you’re getting back out.
I knew that we had it bad when an OB I knew took a job as a first assist. She had to come into the hospital as often as when we did to help the surgeons. After a few months, she quit because she hated the fact that she had less control over her life than as an OB.

 

[dannyboy1]

Yes, the unpredictability is stressful. Anesthesiologists are always having their chains jerked by many different people. No control over your schedule or life. Poor compensation for the call hours while waiting to be called. If you’re taking call from home you can fool yourself into believing that you can get things done. So often you start to do a household chore or run an errand or relax, your phone rings and you have to come in. Plus, you never know when you’re getting back out.
I knew that we had it bad when an OB I knew took a job as a first assist. She had to come into the hospital as often as when we did to help the surgeons. After a few months, she quit because she hated the fact that she had less control over her life than as an OB.

You can have control over your life. You just need to take less money. Then you can work shifts or mommy track. I highly recommend it....

 

[PieOHmy]

You can have control over your life. You just need to take less money. Then you can work shifts or mommy track. I highly recommend it....

If you want control over your life,,,, thats 90 dollars an hour..
Still want control?

 

[radsisrad]

OK, if you say so...

View attachment 288514

Whoever designed this graph should be fired.

 

[seniormd]

You can have control over your life. You just need to take less money. Then you can work shifts or mommy track. I highly recommend it....

Agree. But the mommy track docs can be really exploited. That said, other than surgery centers (clinical risk) few hospitals offer mommy track jobs in my area. The dad docs get angry about how much call they end up taking.

 

[dannyboy1]

Whoever designed this graph should be fired.

If you want control over your life,,,, thats 90 dollars an hour..
Still want control?

someone is screwing you. That is what a CRNA makes as a W2
i make quite a bit more than that. Day doc at my practice is out by 4pm. No nights or weekends. 6 weeks PTO. 300k. Do the math.

 

[PieOHmy]

someone is screwing you. That is what a CRNA makes as a W2
i make quite a bit more than that. Day doc at my practice is out by 4pm. No nights or weekends. 6 weeks PTO. 300k. Do the math.

Ok sorry I was close 130.. still CRNA wage

 

[seniormd]

someone is screwing you. That is what a CRNA makes as a W2
i make quite a bit more than that. Day doc at my practice is out by 4pm. No nights or weekends. 6 weeks PTO. 300k. Do the math.

You won’t get that in any major metropolitan area on the east coast.

 

[dannyboy1]

You won’t get that in any major metropolitan area on the east coast.

Don’t want to give away my location. But yes, you will. I know CRNAs working per diem in a surgicenter making 130/hr. As an” 1099 but still...

 

[PieOHmy]

Don’t want to give away my location. But yes, you will. I know CRNAs working per diem in a surgicenter making 130/hr. As an” 1099 but still...

I know CRNAs making 145/hour in a metro area..
Thats more than what you are making

 

[dannyboy1]

I know CRNAs making 145/hour in a metro area..
Thats more than what you are making

Great. Everyone is making money with good hours. Nobody needs to kill themselves. That was how this whole thing started remember.

 

[Mman]

Oh, for gods sake. Let me ask the guy who is pumping my gas in the 20 degree weather. Or the girl bagging groceries. Waitresses struggling to get by. Think any of these people would not trade positions with us in a second. They aren’t sitting here contemplating suicide. An administrator or surgeon yelled and a normal person kills himself over this???? Please, look around and get some perspective. Find yourself working too much? Get a new job. You should be able to work mommy track or part time and easily pay the bills. We are incredibly fortunate to be in the position we are in...

I don't think anybody said or implied it was the worst job in the world. Merely that it is a stressful job and in a person with mental illness that stress can be a contributing factor to a suicide.

I've worked plenty of jobs for <$10/hr in my life but none of them were as stressful as what I do now.

 

[doctalaughs]

You guys that take a ton of stressful call are saints.

When I was in medical school a couple decades ago deciding on specialties, I decided the pay would have to be in the range of 2-3 X if I had to take call with any regularity that entailed a chance to miss holidays, nights of sleep etc.

 

[deleted162650]

6 people I have known who have committe suicide

Maybe the problem is you

 

[aneftp]

Maybe the problem is you

Nah. I’ve been in practice a long time in multiple big time locations. (20-50 anesthesiologists plus residents. ). Big pool.

how many people do you know who didn’t have a drug or alcohol problem who eventually committed suicide in the anesthesia world.

the correlation is chilling In the anesthesia world.

 

[PieOHmy]

Nah. I’ve been in practice a long time in multiple big time locations. (20-50 anesthesiologists plus residents. ). Big pool.

how many people do you know who didn’t have a drug or alcohol problem who eventually committed suicide in the anesthesia world.

the correlation is chilling In the anesthesia world.

i too have seen about 6-7 people committ suicide... 3 of them first hand... one a hanging, in the call room no less. one of them accidental drug over dose..
one of them drug O.D. in the call room completely naked..

 

[seniormd]

i too have seen about 6-7 people committ suicide... 3 of them first hand... one a hanging, in the call room no less. one of them accidental drug over dose..
one of them drug O.D. in the call room completely naked..

I had known several suicidal doctors years ago, then there was a lull. Now I know of a recent one who is now severely depressed and unable to work. He is on FMLA and unlikely to return to clinical work. He attempted suicide once.
The bigger point is here that the stress and labor intensive work of the specialty can not be trivialized. Go into it with your eyes wide open. It’s hard work and one if the most challenging lifestyles of any specialty. If you have a history of depression or anxiety, steer away from this specialty. Even if you are mentally sound, the stress could still end up being a problem. Pardon my grammar.

 

[seniormd]

Maybe the problem is you

That response is a bit immature and unprofessional

 

[seniormd]

Ok sorry I was close 130.. still CRNA wage

Speech therapists get $130 an hour.

 

[deleted941485]

PCPs making CRNA money was always something that I thought would kill PC but they just keep coming in by he droves.

 

[deleted162650]

That response is a bit immature and unprofessional

You must be new here.

 

[PieOHmy]

Speech therapists get $130 an hour.

are you serious?

 

[seniormd]

are you serious?

Yes. And our kid’s college advisor charges $375 an hour. And they sleep peacefully in their own beds. It was only until I went to business school and took a course in HR that I realized how much we are exploited. Then when I got married and saw how my federal employee spouse worked, I really knew that we are being used. When my spouse works 24 hours testing some instrument, they get the whole next week off in compensation. Unpredictable, call from home, random hours are the worst in terms of lifestyle. People who work these hours have more suicide, cancer, heart attacks, and strokes. They don’t live as long as everyone else. In the business world, these jobs must be well compensated. In medicine (for doctors) they aren’t well compensated. Note that the CRNAs often have predictable shifts. MDs don’t.
When we calculate our salaries, we need to add more denominators. Hours worked, plus several differentials for time of day, call back, travel time, random release times.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Yes. And our kid’s college advisor charges $375 an hour. And they sleep peacefully in their own beds. It was only until I went to business school and took a course in HR that I realized how much we are exploited. Then when I got married and saw how my federal employee spouse worked, I really knew that we are being used. When my spouse works 24 hours testing some instrument, they get the whole next week off in compensation. Unpredictable, call from home, random hours are the worst in terms of lifestyle. People who work these hours have more suicide, cancer, heart attacks, and strokes. They don’t live as long as everyone else. In the business world, these jobs must be well compensated. In medicine (for doctors) they aren’t well compensated. Note that the CRNAs often have predictable shifts. MDs don’t.
When we calculate our salaries, we need to add more denominators. Hours worked, plus several differentials for time of day, call back, travel time, random release times.

Oh cry me a river. Wedding photographers charge like 300-600 an hour. You think they make 450K + like anesthesia? Also, the fact that you're using a college advisor at that price for your kid tells me all you need to know. "College advising" can be done with google searches. I won't argue physicians get the short end of the stick when it comes to reimbursement. CRNA's get paid on average like 160-183 based on MGMA. There's going to be outliers for every job. Yeah there's probably a CRNA somewhere making 400K, but that is far and few between.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I had known several suicidal doctors years ago, then there was a lull. Now I know of a recent one who is now severely depressed and unable to work. He is on FMLA and unlikely to return to clinical work. He attempted suicide once.
The bigger point is here that the stress and labor intensive work of the specialty can not be trivialized. Go into it with your eyes wide open. It’s hard work and one if the most challenging lifestyles of any specialty. If you have a history of depression or anxiety, steer away from this specialty. Even if you are mentally sound, the stress could still end up being a problem. Pardon my grammar.

Anecdotally, I also know 2 anesthesiologists who are well into their 50's and 60's, homes paid off, can buy cars with straight up cash, yet they love their job and still practice. Their kids are in medical school, some even graduated, yet they still practice.

 

[IMGASMD]

Oh cry me a river. Wedding photographers charge like 300-600 an hour. You think they make 450K + like anesthesia? Also, the fact that you're using a college advisor at that price for your kid tells me all you need to know. "College advising" can be done with google searches. I won't argue physicians get the short end of the stick when it comes to reimbursement. CRNA's get paid on average like 160-183 based on MGMA. There's going to be outliers for every job. Yeah there's probably a CRNA somewhere making 400K, but that is far and few between.

Rly? A medical student trying to imaging attending lives?

GTFOH.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Rly? A medical student trying to imaging attending lives?

I criticized one thing about the decision he has made. 375 an hour for "college advising". What is that like academic advising? Those guys don't get paid nearly that amount. I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding the job description of what the "almighty attending" has posted, but it sure sounded like it's an academic advisor. In fact, if I am understanding it correctly, and the dude's job description is to akin to that of an academic advisor, he is getting majorly ripped off.

 

[seniormd]

Oh cry me a river. Wedding photographers charge like 300-600 an hour. You think they make 450K + like anesthesia? Also, the fact that you're using a college advisor at that price for your kid tells me all you need to know. "College advising" can be done with google searches. I won't argue physicians get the short end of the stick when it comes to reimbursement. CRNA's get paid on average like 160-183 based on MGMA. There's going to be outliers for every job. Yeah there's probably a CRNA somewhere making 400K, but that is far and few between.

I now work a non clinical job and make good money. Set hours. Life changer. Now on only one BP med. It took me a long time to get used to being able to sleep though the night. Love it. Wouldn’t go back to gas for an extra $100 k. No way.

 

[PieOHmy]

Yes. And our kid’s college advisor charges $375 an hour. And they sleep peacefully in their own beds. It was only until I went to business school and took a course in HR that I realized how much we are exploited. Then when I got married and saw how my federal employee spouse worked, I really knew that we are being used. When my spouse works 24 hours testing some instrument, they get the whole next week off in compensation. Unpredictable, call from home, random hours are the worst in terms of lifestyle. People who work these hours have more suicide, cancer, heart attacks, and strokes. They don’t live as long as everyone else. In the business world, these jobs must be well compensated. In medicine (for doctors) they aren’t well compensated. Note that the CRNAs often have predictable shifts. MDs don’t.
When we calculate our salaries, we need to add more denominators. Hours worked, plus several differentials for time of day, call back, travel time, random release times.

I like the way you think seniormd.
We need more of this rhetoric.
Not the current bunch of pansies.

 

[PieOHmy]

I now work a non clinical job and make good money. Set hours. Life changer. Now on only one BP med. It took me a long time to get used to being able to sleep though the night. Love it. Wouldn’t go back to gas for an extra $100 k. No way.

I hear ya.. My last call was an absolute killer. Just sheeeer torture physically and mentally. Between OB epidurals and the ER

 

[dannyboy1]

I like the way you think seniormd.
We need more of this rhetoric.
Not the current bunch of pansies.

Rhetoric is nothing. Docs need to vote with their feet and not accept these high call/high hour jobs. When they can’t find people available weekends and evenings the salary will go up....

 

[seniormd]

Rhetoric is nothing. Docs need to vote with their feet and not accept these high call/high hour jobs. When they can’t find people available weekends and evenings the salary will go up....

In a way, that’s what lawyers do. They might say that they charge say $500 an hour. But realistically, many never get enough clients to make 40 hours a week worth of that. They opt to work 25 hours a week at that higher rate rather than give in and take lower hourly rates with more work. We need to take a similar approach. Figure out how to hold off on taking underpaid jobs, especially those with call.

 

[AdmiralChz]

These sorts of threads are hysterical. “Speech therapists make 150 an hour!” - maybe that’s what you pay, but they have major overhead to pay that’s at least 50% of that. Most SLPs make around 60-70K. I dated a couple of them in med school. Good with diction.

And our kid’s college advisor charges $375 an hour.

Come again? Do you contract with a private company? My wife was a college advisor and she charged... zero dollars. Because she was employed by the university and that was her JOB. And she had great difficulty cracking 45K, and was absolutely overworked and miserable. Other than that great job I guess? Even now we have floated doing some freelance advising stuff on the side... maybe charging $75/hr, and that’s on the high end. She’d get laughed away at much more than that.

Classic grass surely must be greener elsewhere post.

 

[deleted162650]

Good with diction.

What you did there, I see it.

 

[seniormd]

These sorts of threads are hysterical. “Speech therapists make 150 an hour!” - maybe that’s what you pay, but they have major overhead to pay that’s at least 50% of that. Most SLPs make around 60-70K. I dated a couple of them in med school. Good with diction.




Come again? Do you contract with a private company? My wife was a college advisor and she charged... zero dollars. Because she was employed by the university and that was her JOB. And she had great difficulty cracking 45K, and was absolutely overworked and miserable. Other than that great job I guess? Even now we have floated doing some freelance advising stuff on the side... maybe charging $75/hr, and that’s on the high end. She’d get laughed away at much more than that.

Classic grass surely must be greener elsewhere post.

Are you in NY, DC, or Boston?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

These sorts of threads are hysterical. “Speech therapists make 150 an hour!” - maybe that’s what you pay, but they have major overhead to pay that’s at least 50% of that. Most SLPs make around 60-70K. I dated a couple of them in med school. Good with diction.




Come again? Do you contract with a private company? My wife was a college advisor and she charged... zero dollars. Because she was employed by the university and that was her JOB. And she had great difficulty cracking 45K, and was absolutely overworked and miserable. Other than that great job I guess? Even now we have floated doing some freelance advising stuff on the side... maybe charging $75/hr, and that’s on the high end. She’d get laughed away at much more than that.

Classic grass surely must be greener elsewhere post.

My kids are in ST and we pay $100/hr. As the therapist works for a company, I am sure she's not seeing all $100 of that.

 

[Consigliere]

Speech therapists get $130 an hour.

No they don't

 

[Mad Jack]

Eh, you could probably say that for a lot (most?) of specialties out there. How many medical students pick up the phone and start haggling with insurance companies so they'd cover X medication or Y surgery or Z imaging? I always encourage students to speak to staff, not residents, about their perspectives of a given field.



Just like anything else it depends. Are there people out there working less and making more doing something different? Of course, but that's true for every person out there not named Jeff Bezos. But subjectively I work less and make about the same as most of my surgical colleagues with the added bonus that when I get home I don't have to worry about ER consults, calls from my NP about chest tube output, a resident letting me know a patient needs to be opened up for an uncontrolled bleed, or a patient calling because they ran out of Percocet and can't deal with the pain. I don't have to hoof it to PCPs or ERs looking for consults to fill my clinic to so I can cover my overhead. I have a good home life and generally enjoy work - that's more than a lot of the population in this country. My neurosurgeon neighbor growing up absolutely killed it doing spines and what not, but he was a miserable dude with 3 ex wives and allimony/child support payments that kept him working well into his 70s - he was the first to say he wished he had never done surgery when I saw him a few years ago and was envious of my career choice.



That is a great gig! But our hospital-employed hospitalists start at 150K (not including benefits). I saw a little higher in training, but I am sure this is regional. Still get 7 on 7 off, though. But you have to be a hospitalist and do dispo all the time.

150k?! That's less than 10th percentile MGMA, must be big city academics.

Even for 350k I could never be a hospitalist

 

[anbuitachi]

Anecdotally, I also know 2 anesthesiologists who are well into their 50's and 60's, homes paid off, can buy cars with straight up cash, yet they love their job and still practice. Their kids are in medical school, some even graduated, yet they still practice.

probably cause they got no student loans, earned the big bucks when it was still the big bucks, and now are close to retirement with millions of dollars. why would they hate it? they got a backup plan if they dont like - quit

i got a coworker in his 60s who used to make close to 7 figures back in the old days not even adjusting for inflation. i think the only reason hes still working now cause he needs money cause he spent too much!