why dont they merge DOs and MDs into the same degree?

[sliceofbread136]

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Patch Adams is a crazy person. Like, literally, terrifyingly crazy. The movie was cute and all, but bears little resemblance to the actual person.

Edit: And the bolded is the most BS part of this whole argument, and one of the real reasons DO and MD are unlikely to merge. A lot of DOs engage in this self-congratulatory back-patting about their holistic approach and how they are more empathic, etc, etc. Even the whole term "allopathic" is an underhanded insult to MDs. A lot of it is a psychologic defense mechanism developed in response to the general idea that DOs are somehow inferior, and it is highly ingrained in the leadership of DO schools.

I kinda wish I went to a DO school, here in cutthroat land they teach to look at only parts of patients and to refer to them by number.

 

[NontradCA]

I call for a unification of penis size. Only then would we see the end of the DO v. MD debate. Could you imagine the reduction of douches in the world if everyone's penis were the same size? No more hiding behind a profession, a degree, a school, car etc.

Write your Congressman.

 

[Lucca]

I call for a unification of penis size. Only then would we see the end of the DO v. MD debate. Could you imagine the reduction of douches in the world if everyone's penis were the same size?

This wouldn't solve the problem. E-peen still varies and everyone knows that's what really matters.

 

[baconshrimps]

I call for a unification of penis size. Only then would we see the end of the DO v. MD debate. Could you imagine the reduction of douches in the world if everyone's penis were the same size? No more hiding behind a profession, a degree, a school, car etc.

Write your Congressman.

Keep your laws off my body.

 

[Ismet]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
.

You should brush up on your current events before chastising others. The opposite of what you said is true. The accreditation systems are merging. ACGME will include AOA . They haven't yet stated when there will be a unified match.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

 

[baconshrimps]

You should brush up on your current events before chastising others. The opposite of what you said is true. The accreditation systems are merging. They haven't yet stated when there will be a unified match.

As of today, they have not been merged.
I don't feel as if I stand corrected.

 

[Ismet]

As of today, they have not been merged.
I don't feel as if I stand corrected.

You still stand corrected, as the application systems have not been unified yet either as of today.

 

[baconshrimps]

You still stand corrected, as the application systems have not been unified yet either as of today.

Touche.
In the end, I don't really care.
I'm not attending an osteopathic school, so in the end this really will have no effect on me. I'm skeptical as to how beneficial the merger will prove itself to be for DO graduates. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[deleted407021]

I was put in my place today. I learned I was wrong and I was quick to admit my mistake. I'm glad I did, instead of draw my argument out as long as I could against those who were clearly in the right. Let's learn from each other's experiences, hmm @baconshrimps ?
I'm not chastising and I wouldn't dare to, considering the subject matter. Let's just chill out.

 

[NontradCA]

The AOA.

I think it's the students and practicing attendings as well. I tend to think that the AOA actually does care about its students and physicians. We can speculate this all day, but I am thinking that the backlash from within DO ranks is what caused the AOA to go back to the merger table so soon after the failed MOU. I say this because of the published survey they had regarding these issues and their acknowledgement of discontent.

 

[Ismet]

Touche.
In the end, I don't really care.
I'm not attending an osteopathic school, so in the end this really will have no effect on me. I'm skeptical as to how beneficial the merger will prove itself to be for DO graduates. I'll just leave it at that.

You should care, because it will have an effect on everybody. The merger has an effect on MD graduates, mainly beneficial. One of the main advantages is a larger number of available residency spots, as MD's will be able to match into programs that were formerly for DO. A lot more DO spots go unfilled than MD. If the program has an OMM component, MD graduates will have the opportunity for OMM training in the residency.

The merger will open up more spots for DO graduates as well, since there are some specialties that do not have an AOA equivalent. A DO graduate who wants to match into an ACGME residency really can't apply to both AOA and ACGME, because if they get into the AOA (it matches earlier) they are automatically out of the ACGME match. So the DO that wants to go into an ACGME residency has to put all his eggs in one basket in a sense. The merger will eliminate that.

 

[circulus vitios]

Dead-weight AOA administrators who are completely removed from realities of the DO degree will fight to the death before giving up their $500k/yr jobs.

 

[gumdrops]

Some of us who went the DO route actually want to be DO's.

Welp, shut the thread down now. 😉

I think people were being very unfair to @baconshrimps. What he was stating was how a profession is generally perceived, not how HE perceives it. I think he made that perfectly clear. #readingcomprehension

Anyway, the perception gap between MD's and DO's is rapidly diminishing and my guess is that DO's will be viewed in ten years as different but equal. If you want someone with x approach to medicine, you see an MD. If you want someone with y, go DO.

Watch, now some DO student will attack me for assigning a DO a letter that follows the letter I assigned to MD's. The only thing I don't look forward to about practicing with DO's as a future MD is the chip DO's have on their shoulders. Stop being so defensive all the time.

 

[gumdrops]

You should care, because it will have an effect on everybody. The merger has an effect on MD graduates, mainly beneficial. One of the main advantages is a larger number of available residency spots, as MD's will be able to match into programs that were formerly for DO. A lot more DO spots go unfilled than MD. If the program has an OMM component, MD graduates will have the opportunity for OMM training in the residency.

The merger will open up more spots for DO graduates as well, since there are some specialties that do not have an AOA equivalent. A DO graduate who wants to match into an ACGME residency really can't apply to both AOA and ACGME, because if they get into the AOA (it matches earlier) they are automatically out of the ACGME match. So the DO that wants to go into an ACGME residency has to put all his eggs in one basket in a sense. The merger will eliminate that.

Don't mean to fan flames here but would an MD who opted for an osteopathic residency be looked down upon for fellowship programs or hiring? Sorry, I just had to ask.

 

[gumdrops]

There are a significant number of schools with numbers lower than the "established" DO schools (which have average mcats ranging from 28-32). Here are a list of MD schools that have similar averages (according to SDN's martriculant's data):

South Alabama (29.1)
Arkansas (29.2)
Arizona-Tucson (29.1)
Florida Atlantic Univ (30)
Florida State (28)
Hawaii-Burns (30)
Illinois (30)
Southern Illinois (29)
Kansas (29)
KY-Louisville (29.1)
LSU Shreveport (29.5)
Michigan - Wayne State (29.8)
Michigan State (30)
East Carolina - Brody (29.7)
Nebraska (29.5)
North Dakota (28.7)
New Mexico (26.9)
Nevada (30)
NY - Buffalo (29)
OH - Wright State Boonshoft (30)
Northeastern Ohio (28.3)
PA - Commonwealth (30)
Penn State (29.1)
All 3 Puerto Rico schools
SC - Columbia (27.1)
SC - Greenville (29.9)
Tennessee (30)
East Tennessee Quillen (29.7)
Texas A & M (30)
UT HSC San Antonio (30)
Texas Tech (29.3)
Texas Tech-Foster (29.3)
Utah (30)
Eastern Virginia (30)
Virginia Commonwealth (29.3)
Vermont (30)
Marshall-Edwards (29.1)
West Virginia (28)
Quinnipiac-Frank Netter SOM (29)

Of course you will find these numbers vary from year to year as do the averages of DO schools. Forgive me for being too lazy to type up GPAs as well, but you'll find that they follow a similar trend. I don't have a convenient source for DO school numbers but they are usually found on individual school websites (I would be willing to create such a source but my excel skills ain't great, maybe someone could work with me).

How are these numbers "lower" than DO schools if they're in range with DO schools? *facepalm*

 

[Espadaleader]

My personal opinion is that the DO degree is doomed. The AOA and AACOM has done a god awful job of actually recruiting people that care about osteopathic medicine. The should have doubled down on these students, poured their resources in a few schools, and beef up the DO schools and AOA programs. The AOA could have been considered equivalent to the ACGME years ago, just like the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. The ACGME deemed AOA programs inadequate for fellowship training so the AOA was forced to merger with ACGME in order to provide options for their students. Also, the AOA does not have a wide selection of residency programs. If you do not want to do family medicine as a DO, you honestly need to match ACGME. The AOA created this environment for DOs. Every DO spot that is not internal medicine or EM or family is super competitive. Its insane that they took on all these students without the training programs for them.

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2012.pdf

Anesthesiology 33
Diagnostic Radiology 30
Emergency Medicine 222
Family Practice 741
Family Practice-Emergency Medicine 8
Integrated Family Practice-NMM 12
Internal Medicine 510
Internal Medicine-Emergency Medicine 17
Internal Medicine-Pediatrics 2
Neurological Surgery 12
Neurology 17
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine/OMT 11
Obstetrics & Gynecology 72
Ophthalmology 14
Orthopedic Surgery 94
Otolaryngology and Facial Plastic Surgery 20
Pediatrics 70


My opinion is the AOA dropped the ball on the DO degree. They have done a poor job defending the DO which is an awesome career path, but requires one (because of the AOAs incompetence) to face huge barriers.

 

[bionerd89]

Don't mean to fan flames here but would an MD who opted for an osteopathic residency be looked down upon for fellowship programs or hiring? Sorry, I just had to ask.

I don't think they will be looked down upon for specifically doing an "osteopathic residency" but they would be looked down if the residency is not reputable and well-known. If there were two candidates, one who did residency at Harvard and one who did residency at some unknown MD residency, I'm pretty sure the fellowship PD would still think more highly of the Harvard resident. MD or DO residency, in the end the more reputable residency, a least in a certain geographical location, will win. This is all my speculation, I don't think we will know for sure until it actually happens.

 

[gumdrops]

I don't think they will be looked down upon for specifically doing an "osteopathic residency" but they would be looked down if the residency is not reputable and well-known. If there were two candidates, one who did residency at Harvard and one who did residency at some unknown MD residency, I'm pretty sure the fellowship PD would still think more highly of the Harvard resident. MD or DO residency, in the end the more reputable residency, a least in a certain geographical location, will win. This is all my speculation, I don't think we will know for sure until it actually happens.

I guess my other question is whether an MD who opts for an osteopathic residency would always be questioned for not going to DO school in the first place. If I do apply for osteopathic residencies, I'd say my honest reason for doing an MD. I wanted more research opportunities as a medical student and MD schools are much better for that, as of now. Interesting to see how education could be really shaken up by this merger.

 

[bionerd89]

I guess my other question is whether an MD who opts for an osteopathic residency would always be questioned for not going to DO school in the first place. If I do apply for osteopathic residencies, I'd say my honest reason for doing an MD. I wanted more research opportunities as a medical student and MD schools are much better for that, as of now. Interesting to see how education could be really shaken up by this merger.

Well I guess it would depend on the PD whether they will ask you that or not. Personally, I hate the question Why DO? or Why MD?. The end result is being a physician so why does it matter that much. Obviously everyone has their own reason to the path they chose but does that reason really determine whether they are a great physician.

 

[drumstix]

It's an irrelevant point. We're talking about medical education in the United States, which is praised for its standards.
Medical Schools in foreign countries do not need to adhere to the same standards of medical schools in the U.S.

i think when they say "caribbean schools," they're only talking about the private institutions that are for-profit (and probably US-based companies, just working offshore).

Cuban doctors, for instance, are world-renown for their work, particularly in some African nations

 

[drumstix]

I agree. I guess its unfortunate then that they don't have a separate title for those who have a foreign MD.

wow.. probably the most pompous, douchiest bull**** statement i've ever come across in my entire life. what a complete ass hat you are.

lol i hope you one day step on a rusty nail in some "foreign" country and get treated by a local doctor you think is an incompetent "foreign" DO MD nurse and so you request to be flown home to the U.S. only to have the wrong leg amputated by a Pritzker University MD accidentally due to a miscommunication, and then get the right one amputated because the infection is looking like a "do or die" situation now leading to systemic inflammation

 

[baconshrimps]

I was put in my place today. I learned I was wrong and I was quick to admit my mistake. I'm glad I did, instead of draw my argument out as long as I could against those who were clearly in the right. Let's learn from each other's experiences, hmm @baconshrimps ?
I'm not chastising and I wouldn't dare to, considering the subject matter. Let's just chill out.

I however remain unconvinced. There is this thing called "foresight" - mine tends to be pretty good. Sorry that I have a more conservative outlook on what this merger means and I am not as optimistic about it as everyone else. Again, show me where the majority PERCEPTION of DO vs MD is inaccurate and I will concede my argument. For the record, I have many friends in DO school - I respect them very much, and so you should really withdraw this idea that I am anti-DO. I'm
Not such a prick that I will outwardly disparage my friends, which essentially is an extension of what is being said about me here, that I have my own biases

 

[deleted407021]

I however remain unconvinced. There is this thing called "foresight" - mine tends to be pretty good. Sorry that I have a more conservative outlook on what this merger means and I am not as optimistic about it as everyone else. Again, show me where the majority PERCEPTION of DO vs MD is inaccurate and I will concede my argument. For the record, I have many friends in DO school - I respect them very much, and so you should really withdraw this idea that I am anti-DO. I'm
Not such a prick that I will outwardly disparage my friends, which essentially is an extension of what is being said about me here, that I have my own biases

I'm not suggesting you are anti DO. I'm just advising that you more strongly consider what your seniors(maybe not by age by certainly by education) are continuously telling you. There's nothing wrong with defending a stance but you seem dug in. Too much so.

 

[bionerd89]

wow.. probably the most pompous, douchiest bullcrap statement i've ever come across in my entire life. what a complete ass hat you are.

lol i hope you one day step on a rusty nail in some "foreign" country and get treated by a local doctor you think is an incompetent "foreign" DO MD nurse and so you request to be flown home to the U.S. only to have the wrong leg amputated by a Pritzker University MD accidentally due to a miscommunication, and then get the right one amputated because the infection is looking like a "do or die" situation now leading to systemic inflammation

I apologize for that statement. I didn't mean it that way. I have respect for every physician , foreign and American. I originally said that because someone was arguing that DOs can't merge with MDs because some DO schools have lower education standards than American MD schools. However, I was trying to make the argument that foreign MDs can still keep their MD title while practicing in America even if it unknown whether their foreign medical education standards are equal to the American ones. That statement was a big fail on my part and I was slightly irritated by the other person and their so called argument. Sorry if I offended you or any foreign physicians. And I do commend you for that rusty nail scenario, pretty interesting.

 

[drumstix]

I apologize for that statement. I didn't mean it that way. I have respect for every physician , foreign and American. I originally said that because someone was arguing that DOs can't merge with MDs because some DO schools have lower education standards than American MD schools. However, I was trying to make the argument that foreign MDs can still keep their MD title while practicing in America even if it unknown whether their foreign medical education standards are equal to the American ones. That statement was a big fail on my part and I was slightly irritated by the other person and their so called argument. Sorry if I offended you or any foreign physicians. And I do commend you for that rusty nail scenario, pretty interesting.

it was my way of highlighting the fact that not all nations are fortunate as us here. 😀

and to address your other concern: it is true that not every MD is equal because of the different standards across the globe at the different schools as you mentioned, but if they ever wanted to come practice in the US, we have procedures here set up to prevent anyone with just any old MD title to come and practice and apply for jobs. they have to go through the proper licensing procedures, which assume some standardized level of knowledge and expect that "MDs" know at least X amount to get licensed to practice here.. right?

 

[gumdrops]

wow.. probably the most pompous, douchiest bullcrap statement i've ever come across in my entire life. what a complete ass hat you are.

lol i hope you one day step on a rusty nail in some "foreign" country and get treated by a local doctor you think is an incompetent "foreign" DO MD nurse and so you request to be flown home to the U.S. only to have the wrong leg amputated by a Pritzker University MD accidentally due to a miscommunication, and then get the right one amputated because the infection is looking like a "do or die" situation now leading to systemic inflammation

This is so butthurt that it extends into the realm of parody.

 

[edgerock24]

lol @baconshrimps. You are a premed. You know nothing compared to a 4th year medical student. Nothing. Stop fighting with her. You seem like the type of eventual medical student who would say the wrong thing to an attending/resident and get kicked off a rotation.

 

[Mad Jack]

It seems that you and I have had very different experiences. As I stated previously, I have a number of friends in DO school. They are smart kids, but all have stated at one point or another that they would have rather attended an MD school. I am not saying that there aren't people who specifically sought out osteopathy, but by and large the majority of applicants to DO schools are applying as a back up in case they are unable to secure an MD acceptance. As far as tiers go, I think that is probably very internal. Much like noone can distinguish very much between the #3 MD school and the #27 MD school, I seriously doubt there is a stark difference between the top ranked DO school and the bottom ranked DO school, considering how narrow the range in # of schools is.

Actually, because there are fewer schools, it is much easier to tell them apart in quality. Like, if you were looking at five cars, it would be easy to pick what order you liked them in and rank them. But if you were looking at 100, things get much more blurry and you have to make tiers because there are so many options and many will be so similar to one another. There's a group of exceptional DO schools that are quite well regarded in comparison to some of the chain schools, for instance.

 

[drumstix]

This is so butthurt that it extends into the realm of parody.

it really does

 

[gumdrops]

it really does

Ha. Always hard to tell with this topic. 😉

 

[baconshrimps]

You should care, because it will have an effect on everybody. The merger has an effect on MD graduates, mainly beneficial. One of the main advantages is a larger number of available residency spots, as MD's will be able to match into programs that were formerly for DO. A lot more DO spots go unfilled than MD. If the program has an OMM component, MD graduates will have the opportunity for OMM training in the residency.

The merger will open up more spots for DO graduates as well, since there are some specialties that do not have an AOA equivalent. A DO graduate who wants to match into an ACGME residency really can't apply to both AOA and ACGME, because if they get into the AOA (it matches earlier) they are automatically out of the ACGME match. So the DO that wants to go into an ACGME residency has to put all his eggs in one basket in a sense. The merger will eliminate that.

Here's the thing - I'm not interested in doing an osteopathic residency.

Considering that the majority of MD applicants probably had the option to either apply or even attend DO school, but instead decided on pursuing the MD, is an indication that most MD graduates probably are not interested in pursuing an osteopathic residency or OMM training. The ONLY advantage I forsee for an MD being able to apply to a DO residency is if they were interested in something like Derm, Plastics, Rad-Onc, Neurosurg, etc, but did not posses the credentials for an ACGME residency, so instead they will choose to still pursue that field by applying to the respective AOA residency. However, if we were to create this argument, there is an underlying assumption that there either a perceived or real difference in the standards expected of DO vs MD candidates, so again that brings us to square one.

All told, I am not interested in any of those specialties, I plan on going into IM - plenty of opportunities without cut-throat competition for this in the MD/ACGME realm. No need for crossing over.

So, in sum, I don't particularly care about any 'proposed' benefits which may exist for MD's under this new merger.

The tides roll in, and the tides roll out - there's no explaining it.

 

[abn632]

Doesn't matter. You have to take the country in which the degree was earned into consideration.
Take a look at what the MD from University of St. Andrews in Scotland is given for:
http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/postgraduate/phdmd/

Also, you should take into consideration the standard of healthcare in the country where the person is receiving their professional medical degree, as well as the institution. I'd sooner seek the care of an MD from University of Tokyo or an MBBS from Imperial College London than I would from someone who earned their MD from Ross University.

Why? Carib students (from big 4) conduct their clinical rotations in US hospitals alongside USMD students. They also have exposure to healthcare delivery in the islands where their school is located, which I assume is a plus - I would think that it makes you more adaptable to different conditions/environments in which to practice. Japan is largely a homogeneous society; the exposure Carib students get in NYC to the many different cultures/ethnicities/religions etc. would likely make them a better doctor in the long term, especially if they plan on practicing in the U.S.

 

[Utenation]

Just curious, which DO schools have higher median MCAT scores and GPAs than a bunch of MD programs? (with sources if possible please, my MSAR subscription has run out)
I'm not trying to stir the pot (which seems like a very explosive one), just curious.

 

[baconshrimps]

Why? Carib students (from big 4) conduct their clinical rotations in US hospitals alongside USMD students. They also have exposure to healthcare delivery in the islands where their school is located, which I assume is a plus - I would think that it makes you more adaptable to different conditions/environments in which to practice. Japan is largely a homogeneous society; the exposure Carib students get in NYC to the many different cultures/ethnicities/religions etc. would likely make them a better doctor in the long term, especially if they plan on practicing in the U.S.

Did you really just compare a carribean medical school to a medical school at one of the top 25 universities in the world?

The 'advantage' of healthcare experience in the islands is not something anyone is particularly interested in stateside. You don't need 'exposure to various cultures' to hone your diagnostic skills and become a competent physician. I would go as far as to say it is nice, but not necessary.

Seriously, you are being overly optimistic about medical education in the carribean.

I further maintain that I don't think medical students from PROFIT POWERHOUSES such as Ross, SGU, St. Kitts, etc should have the opportunity to do clinical rotations in the US, especially considering that everytime a new medical school stateside pops up, that it takes spots away, sometimes from another medical school. Case and point, Hofstra-NSLIJ is swallowing up a bunch of clinical rotation sites that were previously given primarily to Downstate and NYCOM students. You brought up NYC, so I am keeping the conversation relevant, though I would not be surprised if this happened in other parts of the US as well.

 

[gumdrops]

Why? Carib students (from big 4) conduct their clinical rotations in US hospitals alongside USMD students. They also have exposure to healthcare delivery in the islands where their school is located, which I assume is a plus - I would think that it makes you more adaptable to different conditions/environments in which to practice. Japan is largely a homogeneous society; the exposure Carib students get in NYC to the many different cultures/ethnicities/religions etc. would likely make them a better doctor in the long term, especially if they plan on practicing in the U.S.

Several problems with this post:

1) My friends in the Carib programs got virtually no exposure in the first two years to anything clinical. That's what happens when you're at a medical school without a teaching hospital.
2) That is IF you get any clinical rotations in NYC, much less the US. Several programs either closed their teaching hospital to Caribbean grads or have severely restricted the number of spots.

You'd go to those schools in the UK or Tokyo because you get unequivocally better didactic and clinical training. They're world-class institutions that are well-known for research, patient care and high standards. St. George's and Ross? No.

 

[gobears2009]

Just curious, which DO schools have higher median MCAT scores and GPAs than a bunch of MD programs? (with sources if possible please, my MSAR subscription has run out)
I'm not trying to stir the pot (which seems like a very explosive one), just curious.

Not sure about GPAs, but I know that Touro CA has an average MCAT score above 30.

30.1, according to this: http://admissions.tu.edu/com/demographics.html

 

[baconshrimps]

Several problems with this post:

1) My friends in the Carib programs got virtually no exposure in the first two years to anything clinical. That's what happens when you're at a medical school without a teaching hospital.
2) That is IF you get any clinical rotations in NYC, much less the US. Several programs either closed their teaching hospital to Caribbean grads or have severely restricted the number of spots.

You'd go to those schools in the UK or Tokyo because you get unequivocally better didactic and clinical training. They're world-class institutions that are well-known for research, patient care and high standards. St. George's and Ross? No.

People may not be willing to attend those universities themselves (I mean, I couldn't attend University of Tokyo - I don't speak japanese first off, and secondly I wouldn't want to travel halfway across the globe JUST to get an MD, when I could get a DO in the US and never leave my home country. That being said, I was citing exampled such as UTokyo or something in the UK to point out that because these schools are so highly ranked with unequivocal training on an international scale, you need to take into context where someone has earned their degree - being an IMG/FMG doesn't necessarily make you less qualified or apt than having earned you degree in the US, but in the majority of cases (i.e., a medical school in Nepal or Central Africa or India) typically is a lesser breed. So, just to clarify, there are some foreign medical graduates practicing in the US from whom you might be inclined to seek care from before you sought the care of someone who graduated from a medical school in the US - this is more typical when seeking out specialist care, but I'm sure you can get the point I'm driving at.

 

[Utenation]

Not sure about GPAs, but I know that Touro CA has an average MCAT score above 30.

30.1, according to this: http://admissions.tu.edu/com/demographics.html

Thanks for the response! Interesting to see. Do DO schools place an emphasis on URM like MD schools?

 

[touchpause13]

This was compiled by @user3 I just grabbed ones that were 28 or higher

Touro-NY: ?/30.8
Touro-Ca: 3.47/3.40/30.1
CCOM: 3.60/3.55/29
RVU: 3.60/3.57/28.33
DMU: 3.68/3.68/28.2
RowanSOM: 3.63/3.55/28
MSUCOM: 3.6/3.6/28
NYITCOM: 3.6/28
UNTHSC-TCOM: 3.59/3.51/28
COMP: 3.56/3.51/28
COMP-NW: 3.55/3.49/28
AZCOM: 3.51/3.44/28
LECOM-B: 3.50/3.40/28
UNECOM: 3.5+/28
NSU: 3.49/3.40/28
PCOM: 3.46/3.37/28 (2016)
TUNCOM: ?/28

 

[touchpause13]

Thanks for the response! Interesting to see. Do DO schools place an emphasis on URM like MD schools?

Really only for black students. There isn't much difference in the matriculant averages for any other race.

 

[gumdrops]

Thanks for the response! Interesting to see. Do DO schools place an emphasis on URM like MD schools?

This was compiled by @user3 I just grabbed ones that were 28 or higher

Touro-NY: ?/30.8
Touro-Ca: 3.47/3.40/30.1
CCOM: 3.60/3.55/29
RVU: 3.60/3.57/28.33
DMU: 3.68/3.68/28.2
RowanSOM: 3.63/3.55/28
MSUCOM: 3.6/3.6/28
NYITCOM: 3.6/28
UNTHSC-TCOM: 3.59/3.51/28
COMP: 3.56/3.51/28
COMP-NW: 3.55/3.49/28
AZCOM: 3.51/3.44/28
LECOM-B: 3.50/3.40/28
UNECOM: 3.5+/28
NSU: 3.49/3.40/28
PCOM: 3.46/3.37/28 (2016)
TUNCOM: ?/28

Problem is that the average for accepted US MD applicants is a 31. These are comparable stats to low-tier schools but the assertion that DO schools have higher admissions standards than many low-tier medical schools has not been backed by numerical data yet. You weren't saying that in your post but the numbers do not support the argument several people were trying to make earlier.

 

[touchpause13]

I never made that argument and I wouldn't make that argument.

 

[Utenation]

There are a significant number of schools with numbers lower than the "established" DO schools (which have average mcats ranging from 28-32). Here are a list of MD schools that have similar averages (according to SDN's martriculant's data):

South Alabama (29.1)
Arkansas (29.2)
Arizona-Tucson (29.1)
Florida Atlantic Univ (30)
Florida State (28)
Hawaii-Burns (30)
Illinois (30)
Southern Illinois (29)
Kansas (29)
KY-Louisville (29.1)
LSU Shreveport (29.5)
Michigan - Wayne State (29.8)
Michigan State (30)
East Carolina - Brody (29.7)
Nebraska (29.5)
North Dakota (28.7)
New Mexico (26.9)
Nevada (30)
NY - Buffalo (29)
OH - Wright State Boonshoft (30)
Northeastern Ohio (28.3)
PA - Commonwealth (30)
Penn State (29.1)
All 3 Puerto Rico schools
SC - Columbia (27.1)
SC - Greenville (29.9)
Tennessee (30)
East Tennessee Quillen (29.7)
Texas A & M (30)
UT HSC San Antonio (30)
Texas Tech (29.3)
Texas Tech-Foster (29.3)
Utah (30)
Eastern Virginia (30)
Virginia Commonwealth (29.3)
Vermont (30)
Marshall-Edwards (29.1)
West Virginia (28)
Quinnipiac-Frank Netter SOM (29)

Of course you will find these numbers vary from year to year as do the averages of DO schools. Forgive me for being too lazy to type up GPAs as well, but you'll find that they follow a similar trend. I don't have a convenient source for DO school numbers but they are usually found on individual school websites (I would be willing to create such a source but my excel skills ain't great, maybe someone could work with me).

Thanks for your comment. It's interesting to look at stuff like this. Which DO schools have avg MCATs of 31 or 32? If not this year, did they have those avg scores in the past?

 

[gobears2009]

Thanks for your comment. It's interesting to look at stuff like this. Which DO schools have avg MCATs of 31 or 32? If not this year, did they have those avg scores in the past?

None. The Touro schools cracked the 30s for the first time ever.

Edit: 30.8 is pretty close to 31 if you want to get technical.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You're absolutely right that some DO schools have lower admissions standards than some MD schools. But it wouldn't be right to make a blanket statement. There are some state MD schools that have lower averages than some DO schools. And if you're going to look for "historically black" DO schools with questionable admissions standards, rest assured that you won't find any.

I guess when things go wrong and I can't defend my arguments, lets blame the BLACK... Nothing new here!

 

[Ismet]

Here's the thing - I'm not interested in doing an osteopathic residency.

Considering that the majority of MD applicants probably had the option to either apply or even attend DO school, but instead decided on pursuing the MD, is an indication that most MD graduates probably are not interested in pursuing an osteopathic residency or OMM training. The ONLY advantage I forsee for an MD being able to apply to a DO residency is if they were interested in something like Derm, Plastics, Rad-Onc, Neurosurg, etc, but did not posses the credentials for an ACGME residency, so instead they will choose to still pursue that field by applying to the respective AOA residency. However, if we were to create this argument, there is an underlying assumption that there either a perceived or real difference in the standards expected of DO vs MD candidates, so again that brings us to square one.

All told, I am not interested in any of those specialties, I plan on going into IM - plenty of opportunities without cut-throat competition for this in the MD/ACGME realm. No need for crossing over.

So, in sum, I don't particularly care about any 'proposed' benefits which may exist for MD's under this new merger.

The tides roll in, and the tides roll out - there's no explaining it.

As I understand it now, not all the currently AOA/AACOM-accredited programs will require/retain the osteopathic principles. The programs will have to conform to the same ACGME guidelines as current MD residency programs except for the remaining osteopathic-focused programs, which will still be overseen by ACGME. Even if you plan to go into IM, there may be better programs that were formerly AOA/AACOM that you may consider over programs that were always ACGME. And this applies to fellowship programs as well. It's fine if right now you think this won't affect you, because it's unlikely that things will be drastically changed by the time you are matching. But it's a big change in medical education (as well as politics/legislature) as a whole, and I think it will impact everyone in some way.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

As I understand it now, not all the currently AOA/AACOM-accredited programs will require/retain the osteopathic principles. The programs will have to conform to the same ACGME guidelines as current MD residency programs except for the remaining osteopathic-focused programs, which will still be overseen by ACGME. Even if you plan to go into IM, there may be better programs that were formerly AOA/AACOM that you may consider over programs that were always ACGME. And this applies to fellowship programs as well. It's fine if right now you think this won't affect you, because it's unlikely that things will be drastically changed by the time you are matching. But it's a big change in medical education (as well as politics/legislature) as a whole, and I think it will impact everyone in some way.

I agree with you. It is a reasonable and logical opinion.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

@Beth_W737 why are you wasting your time?

There are many premeds like @baconshrimps who like to make blanket statements based on google. He keeps saying "oh it's not my opinion but the opinion of others" ---a self-given license clearly from someone who probably never spoke with real directors and real residents and real students and real admissions members to make him better qualified to be a "spokesperson" but clearly is just showing off his own personal biases and putting it as "general facts"--especially statements towards admissions statistics which were inaccurate.

Attentive people will always value YOUR advice better because the only opinions that matter are of those who went through the process first hand. Keep up the good work as well as all of you upperclassmen.

There are clearly some people in SDN who have narcissistic personality behavior. Therefore, answering their bogus comments would make them even more (you know)...

 

[Dr. Zombie]

There are clearly some people in SDN who have narcissistic personality behavior. Therefore, answering their bogus comments would make them even more (you know)...

I know right? When I first started on SDN I used to fall prey to those types of people and used to get worked up. Now, the best medicine is just to "lol" them away, and educate those that are open-minded enough to listen.

 

[gumdrops]

I guess when things go wrong and I can defend my arguments, lets blame the BLACK... Nothing new here!

Uh, nobody was blaming "the BLACK."

As I understand it now, not all the currently AOA/AACOM-accredited programs will require/retain the osteopathic principles. The programs will have to conform to the same ACGME guidelines as current MD residency programs except for the remaining osteopathic-focused programs, which will still be overseen by ACGME. Even if you plan to go into IM, there may be better programs that were formerly AOA/AACOM that you may consider over programs that were always ACGME. And this applies to fellowship programs as well. It's fine if right now you think this won't affect you, because it's unlikely that things will be drastically changed by the time you are matching. But it's a big change in medical education (as well as politics/legislature) as a whole, and I think it will impact everyone in some way.

Here's what I think @baconshrimps and I are struggling with. There are these vaunted osteopathic programs that are supposedly more "reputable" than comparable allopathic programs. I would venture to take a guess and say that neither @baconshrimps nor I have heard of an osteopathic program that is more reputable than its allopathic counterpart. There is this counterfactual that everyone is bringing up that nobody has been able to back with solid evidence yet. And by what metrics of reputation are we talking here? He and I keep citing numbers but other people seem to be using different measures of reputation.

For example, if JHU's EM program (earlier example from this thread) accepted more applicants from PCOM than say, Drexel, over a span of five years, that may have been an argument to attend PCOM if EM was something you were really interested in and you wanted to attend med school in Philly. All people have been able to say is that "Yes, from this DO program, JHU HAS taken people." That doesn't speak well for a DO program having a better reputation than its regional allopathic "rival."