why dont they merge DOs and MDs into the same degree?

[chizledfrmstone]

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I recorded the AOA Town Hall meeting from Monday. They talk about the AOA/ACGME merger.

First file is just the audio and the second is a screen capture (both powerpoint and audio together) of the meeting as it was through the website.

There is about 2-3 mins of elevator music in the beginning of the audio. I set up the timing wrong.

Audio only (WAV) ~50MB:
Click Here

Screen capture (Powerpoint lecture with entire audio in WAV) ~140MB:
Click Here

*Please download the file rather than streaming it. PM me know if either one goes down.

 

[Ismet]

Here's what I think @baconshrimps and I are struggling with. There are these vaunted osteopathic programs that are supposedly more "reputable" than comparable allopathic programs. I would venture to take a guess and say that neither @baconshrimps nor I have heard of an osteopathic program that is more reputable than its allopathic counterpart. There is this counterfactual that everyone is bringing up that nobody has been able to back with solid evidence yet. And by what metrics of reputation are we talking here? He and I keep citing numbers but other people seem to be using different measures of reputation.

For example, if JHU's EM program (earlier example from this thread) accepted more applicants from PCOM than say, Drexel, over a span of five years, that may have been an argument to attend PCOM if EM was something you were really interested in and you wanted to attend med school in Philly. All people have been able to say is that "Yes, from this DO program, JHU HAS taken people." That doesn't speak well for a DO program having a better reputation than its regional allopathic "rival."

You're kinda mixing up your usage of the word "program." Program in this discussion = graduate medical education (residency program), not medical school. The point of my message was that the top AOA/AACOM residency programs may be better than some ACGME programs in some specialties (like IM). I'm not talking about JHU or Mass Gen or any of the ACGME programs that are generally very good across the board of specialties. Also, there's very limited objective data on the quality of residency programs, so I'm not sure where these numbers you're citing are coming from. Just because they admit more people from better schools doesn't mean they are a better residency program. Just because the hospital is highly ranked doesn't mean the residency program is the best. Just because JHU is a Top #whatever medical school does not mean it's a top #whatever residency program in a certain specialty. There are a number of great residency programs that are not associated with big name schools that are prestigious nonetheless.

 

[gumdrops]

As I understand it now, not all the currently AOA/AACOM-accredited programs will require/retain the osteopathic principles. The programs will have to conform to the same ACGME guidelines as current MD residency programs except for the remaining osteopathic-focused programs, which will still be overseen by ACGME. Even if you plan to go into IM, there may be better programs that were formerly AOA/AACOM that you may consider over programs that were always ACGME. And this applies to fellowship programs as well. It's fine if right now you think this won't affect you, because it's unlikely that things will be drastically changed by the time you are matching. But it's a big change in medical education (as well as politics/legislature) as a whole, and I think it will impact everyone in some way.

You're kinda mixing up your usage of the word "program." Program in this discussion = graduate medical education (residency program), not medical school. The point of my message was that the top AOA/AACOM residency programs may be better than some ACGME programs in some specialties (like IM). I'm not talking about JHU or Mass Gen or any of the ACGME programs that are generally very good across the board of specialties. Also, there's very limited objective data on the quality of residency programs, so I'm not sure where these numbers you're citing are coming from. Just because they admit more people from better schools doesn't mean they are a better residency program. Just because the hospital is highly ranked doesn't mean the residency program is the best. Just because JHU is a Top #whatever medical school does not mean it's a top #whatever residency program in a certain specialty. There are a number of great residency programs that are not associated with big name schools that are prestigious nonetheless.

The use of the word "program" indicated my overlooking an important distinction in this case. I was citing the admissions stats provided to support the original claim made very early in this thread that some osteopathic schools are more reputable than the allopathic schools in the same region and using the examples that reputable residencies are accepting more osteopathic grads than allopathic grads from some regions, also used as a metric earlier in this thread. Thanks for clarifying my other assumptions.

 

[Tommyguns89]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.


Yerpp.

My main issue with this is that most DO schools today are increasing standards pretty rapidly. I wouldnt be surprised if most DO schools today are as hard to get into as MD schools 20 years or so ago. The problem isnt really that there are a bunch of dumb DO students who are unqualified. Its that the spots to medical schools are extremely limited relative to the number of applicants and makes everything way more competitive than they need to be.

 

[TreadLightly]

I guess when things go wrong and I can't defend my arguments, lets blame the BLACK... Nothing new here!

Oh come on, please don't tell me you took that as some racist comment. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with academic standards of the school(s) in question. I was responding to a commenter that made it seem like all MD schools are the last bastion of academic excellence and purity and all DO schools are run-down discount diploma shacks.

Which is clearly not the case.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Oh come on, please don't tell me you took that as some racist comment. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with academic standards of the school(s) in question. I was responding to a commenter that made it seem like all MD schools are the last bastion of academic excellence and purity and all DO schools are run-down discount diploma shacks.

Which is clearly not the case.

I did not take it as a racist comment, but I thought it was silly using HBCU med schools to try to counter what some random premed in SDN think about DO schools.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

My main issue with this is that most DO schools today are increasing standards pretty rapidly. I wouldnt be surprised if most DO schools today are as hard to get into as MD schools 20 years or so ago. The problem isnt really that there are a bunch of dumb DO students who are unqualified. Its that the spots to medical schools are extremely limited relative to the number of applicants and makes everything way more competitive than they need to be.

I agree with you... I remember when I told the DO that I shadowed that my chances are not good with my mid 20 mcat, she did not believe me... That was when she told me she got in with 18 and there were many in her class with 18-20 mcat.

 

[Beth_W737]

As previously stated, I said many top DO programs were equal to some mid to low tier MD in stats and education quality. I also said our school does have a very good match list, I never said better. My point was to never judge based solely on degree period. This is my last post on this thread. And thanks to some of you for your support.

 

[mke520]

there is no disputing that MD programs are more reputable to ACGME residencies and that the average GPA/MCAT stats for the majority of MD programs are significantly higher than most DO programs, but the reputation and matriculation statistics of DO programs are increasing each year and starting to close the gap. with that said, i believe the quality of the education you receive whether you go MD or DO is going to be equal overall. from a curriculum viewpoint, the material that MD and DO students cover is exactly the same except with the added OMM for DO students of course. i've been on multiple MD and DO interviews and lets just say that DO schools are closing the gap quickly and fighting hard to get the respect they deserve in the medical community. i was actually more impressed with the DO schools than the MD schools overall, probably why i'm choosing to go DO over MD, but with that said i believe that this "MD is better than DO" BS is quickly fading away and the merging of the AOA/ACGME will only accelerate this, along with matriculation statistics for DO schools steadily increasing

 

[sliceofbread136]

I agree with you... I remember when I told the DO that I shadowed that my chances are not good with my mid 20 mcat, she did not believe me... That was when she told me she got in with 18 and there were many in her class with 18-20 mcat.

I would not want a doctor with a sub-20 mcat to touch me

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I would not want a doctor with a sub-20 mcat to touch me

Next time you go visit your physician, ask him/her what was his/her MCAT score?

 

[sliceofbread136]

Next time you go visit your physician, ask him/her what was his/her MCAT score?

I actually do look at what med school my physicians attended before I make my choice.

 

[baconshrimps]

Next time you go visit your physician, ask him/her what was his/her MCAT score?

+1.
Seriously, if your physician was able to establish some kind of practice for themselves (either in a hospital or private practice) then chances are they've jumped through far more relevant hoops to achieve than then the freaking MCAT. MCAT is an aptitude test for the study of and success in a medical curriculum - not a measure of aptitude for the practice of medicine itself.

 

[mke520]

i wonder if a "good" physician could even score a 20 on a MCAT right now...i did very well on my MCAT and i even know that the MCAT speaks little volume on the potential of a person becoming an excellent physician

 

[bravomavo]

One more time, in case you missed it the first 3 times...I am stating that this is the perception of DO schools - that they have lower standards/may hold their students to lower standards. I am not claiming that I believe this. I am simply conveying this is the majority perception of DO schools. Continue misconstruing my statements. Please explain to me why you think the new merger is likely to decrease the DO bias? It is not as if there will be 'DO quotas' for residency programs, and even if program directors do invite DO's where they may not have previously, there is nothing to say the PD's will be require to rank the candidates. Until all of the old school PD's at the major hospitals retire or die, this DO discrimination will persist. It will be a very long time before any meaningful tipping point is approached, so try and be realistic about this merger if you want to have a meaningful discussion about it.

It took you three tries to get it through to him... It won't work. He will not ever let that ignorance go because that will prevent him from working hard now if he gives in to the fact that come residency time, he will find it difficult to do and go where he wNts to be. Let them be ignorant. It never works.

 

[NYCNative]

Is this commenting above the quote something they teach you in DO school? For some reason, only you, Goro, and a couple of other DOs are the only ones who do this on this board.

No, not true. My school, as posted, has equal stats among applicants to our 3 in state allo schools and more applications than any of them. Some DO programs do have equal stats to MD programs, and not just newer ones or lone in state. Take it from me, there are good med students and bad med students everywhere. You can't judge based on the degree, every person should be judged individually. And the new merger should alleviate some bias, all residents will be doing ACGME approved residencies in the future.


quote="baconshrimps, post: 14980367, member: 591243"]Some? I would say with the exception of a handful of newer MD programs and some state MD schools which act as the lone medical school in their state, the vast majority of DO schools have substantively lower average GPA and MCATs for their entering classes. For the record, this is not a judgement, it is a fact. We're talking about numbers people, before we get all up in arms at baconshrimps.

S[/quote]

 

[Psai]

There are a significant number of schools with numbers lower than the "established" DO schools (which have average mcats ranging from 28-32). Here are a list of MD schools that have similar averages (according to SDN's martriculant's data):

South Alabama (29.1)
Arkansas (29.2)
Arizona-Tucson (29.1)
Florida Atlantic Univ (30)
Florida State (28)
Hawaii-Burns (30)
Illinois (30)
Southern Illinois (29)
Kansas (29)
KY-Louisville (29.1)
LSU Shreveport (29.5)
Michigan - Wayne State (29.8)
Michigan State (30)
East Carolina - Brody (29.7)
Nebraska (29.5)
North Dakota (28.7)
New Mexico (26.9)
Nevada (30)
NY - Buffalo (29)
OH - Wright State Boonshoft (30)
Northeastern Ohio (28.3)
PA - Commonwealth (30)
Penn State (29.1)
All 3 Puerto Rico schools
SC - Columbia (27.1)
SC - Greenville (29.9)
Tennessee (30)
East Tennessee Quillen (29.7)
Texas A & M (30)
UT HSC San Antonio (30)
Texas Tech (29.3)
Texas Tech-Foster (29.3)
Utah (30)
Eastern Virginia (30)
Virginia Commonwealth (29.3)
Vermont (30)
Marshall-Edwards (29.1)
West Virginia (28)
Quinnipiac-Frank Netter SOM (29)

Of course you will find these numbers vary from year to year as do the averages of DO schools. Forgive me for being too lazy to type up GPAs as well, but you'll find that they follow a similar trend. I don't have a convenient source for DO school numbers but they are usually found on individual school websites (I would be willing to create such a source but my excel skills ain't great, maybe someone could work with me).

I don't know how much the stats for DO schools have changed in the past few years. But I just checked and the average GPA for my class was about 0.1 higher and the MCAT score for our matriculants was 3 points above what is stated on that chart. The chart was only made a year before I matriculated although the data was probaby pulled from a website that was somewhat out of date.

 

[gumdrops]

I would not want a doctor with a sub-20 mcat to touch me

I hate to say it but I agree with this. As long as you know a molecule isn't the same as an atom and the four base pairs in DNA, you can still break 20-21 (lol, me when I took my first AAMC practice exam).

Is this commenting above the quote something they teach you in DO school? For some reason, only you, Goro, and a couple of other DOs are the only ones who do this on this board.

I noticed this too and didn't want to say anything, lol.

 

[knv2u]

I think this will be a logical consequence of the merger of DO/MD residency programs. It will take time for resistance to change to die down, but I do think this will happen. It is also likely to happen because DOs and MDs are not as different as they once were, and most DOs I know don't practice OMM at all.

 

[gumdrops]

i wonder if a "good" physician could even score a 20 on a MCAT right now...i did very well on my MCAT and i even know that the MCAT speaks little volume on the potential of a person becoming an excellent physician

The MCAT is a test of general reasoning ability using a very shallow base of knowledge. What your doing well on it says is that if this person applies himself in medical school (the adcom's basic assumption), there is a much greater likelihood that he will do very well in medical school than someone with a lower MCAT.