Why DPM and Not DO or MD??

[Dzcnfusing]

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Osteodog,

You made some very cogent and persuasive points in your very candid response. It seems to me that the original question you posed was more to yourself than it was to others. As corny as this sounds, life is a path that we follow to the end. For some, that path is illuminated and clear from beginning to end, and follows a straight line. For others (like you and me), it is dimly lit and twisted, going from A to D to J and finally ending at Z (wherever that may be).

You started off hoping to walk the path toward A, but for whatever reason, ended up on B (DPM path). You tried to walk along that path, but (and excuse the horrid pun), it didn't bode well for your feet. You used the knowledge that you gained from your trek along the B path and used it to gain access back to path A, where you always wanted to be.

Like you, I started off wanting to walk along path A (lawyer). I was a poli sci/government major at the University of Michigan. My father, a surgeon, told me that he would not be paying for me to attend Harvard Law, where I wanted to go, but would pay for me to attend any medical school of my choice. I veered from my chosen path, enrolled at the Medical College of Ohio for a post bac MS program in biomed sci (to get my pre-med reqs), did well, and then got into Michigan State University's MD program (they also have a fantastic DO program). I endured medical school. I did well, but hated it. In fact, to me, the first two years of medical school were rehash of undergrad basic science courses. No thinking, just regurgitating facts and memorizing structures and formulae. Internships and clerkships were fun, but grueling. IM/psych residency was hell, but that's where I actually learned how to become a doctor. All of that...and I still was not feeling right. So, right after I finished residency, I took the LSAT and started going to law school. I LOVED IT. Unlike medical school, law school is a real graduate program; it teaches you how to analyze facts and actually apply them to the law. In a way, law school was like residency in that it teaches you to take what you learned and apply it to a specific situation.

In February, I sat for the bar exam and will find out next week whether I passed. If I did pass, I will leave medicine and move over into law and not look back. I will move back over to my desired path, law, just like you will move to your desired path, medicine.

Unlike us, there are some folks out there who started off walking the path of podiatry. Maybe their mom/dad was a DPM, or maybe they were treated by a DPM as a kid/teen/student and learned more about the profession. For whatever reason, some folks choose pod, pharm, opt, dentistry, etc., as their primary path and never once considered anything else. It's not hard to believe, nor is it perplexing why someone would choose to become a DPM. During my residency at Wm Beaumont Hospital, in Royal Oak, MI, I worked with a few pods who did fantastic work. I saw one pod treat a 50 y/o woman with IDDM and peripheral neuropathy who had developed a pre-gangrenous ulceration with osteomyelitis and he did such a good job, after two I&Ds, that she kept her entire foot and recovered fully. Another DPM did a remarkable job thwarting a recalcitrant fungal infection.

So, no matter what your degree is, whether it's DPM, PhD, MD, DO, JD, or DVM, be proud of your chosen profession and do the best job you can. Make the most of your career. If you're unhappy, and you can put up with more school, fine, do it, but don't look down upon those who don't/won't. Also, remember one very important thing, it's not the degree you earn that makes you a competent professional...it's the person who holds the degree. I've worked with plenty of MDs who are *****s. I've seen many MDs treat patients like crap. If you are a competent, kind, professional, and caring professional, whether DO, MD, DPM, JD, OD, PharmD, whatever, then that is all that matters. It's the WHO, not the WHAT. You can't have one without the other.

Peace,
Zack

Dr. Zack,
I've seen a few of your posts, and you have this strangely wicked way of doing things. I'm glad to see you've now added the Esq. after your degrees, and you still manage to try to offend yet complement those that are not MDs. Your posts are all over the place; ladies must be knockin' down that door ey?

 

[doclm]

hey doclm,

i'm not sure exactly where you got your information from, but Pod students at RFU do not take classes with the MD students. The MD students have there own department heads and professors, many of whom have been at our school for over 25 years. Scholl, likewise, have their own respective departments.

The only class that is somewhat integrated is gross anatomy, but even with this class there's a separate curve for DPM and MD students. We don't even use the same cadavers except when we covered the lower extremity (Dr. Bareither is great by the way). Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.

peace.

I thought that they use the same cadavers for the Gross Anatomy now. Is profs in the basic science department different for DPM and MD classes?

 

[Dzcnfusing]

Now tell us, in your obviously finite wisdom, should ODs be called doctors or not?!

 

[Podman]

Sweet, way to represent Ohio. I have a friend going there next year. Good luck.

awesome! Next year's class should be interesting because i've heard the school sent out more than 120 acceptances which is insane if u ask me. Best of luck to you and your friend as well...

 

[doclm]

awesome! Next year's class should be interesting because i've heard the school sent out more than 120 acceptances which is insane if u ask me. Best of luck to you and your friend as well...

😱

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

awesome! Next year's class should be interesting because i've heard the school sent out more than 120 acceptances which is insane if u ask me. Best of luck to you and your friend as well...

Sorry, but in my opinion this is nothing to brag about. This is actually what I think is wrong with most pod schools.

 

[Podman]

Sorry, but in my opinion this is nothing to brag about. This is actually what I think is wrong with most pod schools.

who said i was bragging?

I said this is "insane"...because i know half of these people will drop out by 2nd year. Yes, I am aware this is the problem with most pod schools and i definately share your point of view - thank you for stating the obvious 😉

 

[doclm]

Now tell us, in your obviously finite wisdom, should ODs be called doctors or not?!

Doctor....Yes
Physicain....NO?

Do they take basic medical sciences in their programs?
Gross Anatomy
Biochem
Pathology
Pharm
Micro/Immuno
Neuro

Do they do residencies?

I am just curious. However, I think they do have a good profession.

 

[Podman]

Doctor....Yes
Physicain....NO?

Do they take basic medical sciences in their programs?
Gross Anatomy
Biochem
Pathology
Pharm
Micro/Immuno
Neuro

Do they do residencies?

I am just curious. However, I think they do have a good profession.

actually OD's take those courses - that i know for a fact because i know a good friend of mine in 1st year at the Pensylvannia school - as for residencies, that i'm not too sure of.

 

[doclm]

awesome! Next year's class should be interesting because i've heard the school sent out more than 120 acceptances which is insane if u ask me. Best of luck to you and your friend as well...

Does anyone know what kind of shortage, or demand there will be for DPM's in the future? Hopefully, OCPM is doing this out of government statistical data. I do not want to see history repeat itself, when I want a PM&S-36.

I think Scholl has a cap at 85, however last year they had less attend.

But, second thoughts, isn't OCPM the largest DPM school?

 

[manik]

I thought that they use the same cadavers for the Gross Anatomy now. Is profs in the basic science department different for DPM and MD classes?

Well, from my understanding last year the main reason we don't "share" our cadavers is because during the Spring quarter, the Pods take another anatomy course that focuses on the lower extremity. So during the reguar anatomy course with med students, the only time we come together to dissect the cadavers is when we cover the lower extremity. That way, the pod cadavers can be preserved for that spring quarter class.

As for your question about professors, I'm pretty sure we have different professors. I don't see how there would be time for the professors to be running around between the two schools because most of the major courses are taught in the morning. Plus, if we were being taught by the same professors, it would just make more sense to have us all in the same lecture hall which doesn't happen.

To be honest, I don't think its really a big deal. Most of friends who are pods absolutely love the teaching and research opportunities at Scholl. It is a little disappoiting in a sense because our schools are so divided you really feel kind of a segregation amongst the students. Fortunately for me, I live in the apartment that has a lot of pods so I've had the opportunity to meet plenty. Good luck with this upcoming year. I'm sure you'll do fine, there's definitely a great sense of solidarity amongst students at Scholl so you'll find yourself to be in a great learning environment.

 

[Podman]

Does anyone know what kind of shortage, or demand there will be for DPM's in the future? Hopefully, OCPM is doing this out of government statistical data. I do not want to see history repeat itself, when I want a PM&S-36.

I think Scholl has a cap at 85, however last year they had less attend.

But, second thoughts, isn't OCPM the largest DPM school?

doclm,

OCPM is one of the largest DPM schools - my first year class was just under 100 and we lost quite a few people after the first year - first semester also! Our school holds a strong reputation by virtue of our clinical performance and graduate placements but unfortunately they are a money-making machine. They will accept as many people as possible just to get the tuition money for at least one full year.

In terms of "history repeating itself" - i wouldn't worry so much because the people who actually get to graduate from our school are very top-notch and usually give our profession very good representation - because, like i said in an earlier topic, acceptance is easy but graduating and landing a strong 3 year surgery + fellowship options are very difficult.

 

[dpmgrad]

Doctor....Yes
Physicain....NO?

Do they take basic medical sciences in their programs?
Gross Anatomy
Biochem
Pathology
Pharm
Micro/Immuno
Neuro

Do they do residencies?

I am just curious. However, I think they do have a good profession.

My co-resident's wife is an OD. She tells me that the curriculum does varies a little between the 17 OD schools. However, most schools required students to take:

Gross / Human Anatomy
Pathology
Neuroscience
Pharmacology
Biochemistry
Physiology
Histology
Microbiology (some schools have students take ocular microbiology instead)

There is even an OD school that has a curriculum that is modeled after the organ based curriculum similar to DMU. That school is the Pennsylvania College of Optometry, where my co-resident's wife attended.

You can learn more about the OD schools by clicking on the OD school links at: http://www.opted.org/info_links.cfm

There are residency programs that OD graduates participate in. They are usually one year in length. You can read more about the OD residency programs at:
http://www.opted.org/residencies_main.cfm
There are even fellowship programs for OD grads.

 

[doclm]

My co-resident's wife is an OD. She tells me that the curriculum does varies a little between the 17 OD schools. However, most schools required students to take:

Gross / Human Anatomy
Pathology
Neuroscience
Pharmacology
Biochemistry
Physiology
Histology
Microbiology (some schools have students take ocular microbiology instead)

There is even an OD school that has a curriculum that is modeled after the organ based curriculum similar to DMU. That school is the Pennsylvania College of Optometry, where my co-resident's wife attended.

You can learn more about the OD schools by clicking on the OD school links at: http://www.opted.org/info_links.cfm

There are residency programs that OD graduates participate in. They are usually one year in length. You can read more about the OD residency programs at:
http://www.opted.org/residencies_main.cfm
There are even fellowship programs for OD grads.

Thanks, someone I know was looking at going OD. I was not too sure it their education followed the same basic science model as with MD, DO, DPM, but it looks very similar in that sense.

 

[doclm]

doclm,

OCPM is one of the largest DPM schools - my first year class was just under 100 and we lost quite a few people after the first year - first semester also! Our school holds a strong reputation by virtue of our clinical performance and graduate placements but unfortunately they are a money-making machine. They will accept as many people as possible just to get the tuition money for at least one full year.

In terms of "history repeating itself" - i wouldn't worry so much because the people who actually get to graduate from our school are very top-notch and usually give our profession very good representation - because, like i said in an earlier topic, acceptance is easy but graduating and landing a strong 3 year surgery + fellowship options are very difficult.

I hoping that graduating with a DPM will be harder than finding a PM&S-36?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Podman]

I hoping that graduating with a DPM will be harder than finding a PM&S-36?

Thanks for your input.

just work hard at school, learn as much as you can, and do well in clinic - this isn't supposed to be an easy task but this isn't impossible either. That is why medicine, podiatric medicine, dentistry, optometry, etc. aren't for everyone - and i'm sure you would do just fine...

best of luck with scholl! It's definately a great school for sure

 

[jonwill]

I hoping that graduating with a DPM will be harder than finding a PM&S-36?

Thanks for your input.

Projected number of residencies as of next year (after the transition is complete):

PM&S-36: 360 positions
PM&S-24: 160 positions

Number of students by class nationally (as of January 2006):

Class of 2006 - 349
Class of 2007 - 340
Class of 2008 - 472
Class of 2009 - 513
Class of 2010 - ???

 

[doclm]

Projected number of residencies as of next year (after the transition is complete):

PM&S-36: 360 positions
PM&S-24: 160 positions

Number of students by class nationally (as of January 2006):

Class of 2006 - 349
Class of 2007 - 340
Class of 2008 - 472
Class of 2009 - 513
Class of 2010 - ???

Why the sharp increase between the Class of 2006 and 2010?
Things getting better in Podiatry?

360+160=520

Is it possible for some of the people graduating with a DPM in the future to not get any residencies? Is it possible that your #'s not reflecting dropouts?

Don't mean to question you.
Thanks for your input.

 

[capo]

Why the sharp increase between the Class of 2006 and 2010?
Things getting better in Podiatry?

360+160=520

Is it possible for some of the people graduating with a DPM in the future to not get any residencies? Is it possible that your #'s not reflecting dropouts?

Don't mean to question you.
Thanks for your input.

And another thing, while we're at it. Is this just a supply and demand thing or does this mean more schools are taking in more students -- solely to make more money from tuition -- only to dismiss them either academically or some other way, since residencies won't have slots available for them anyway? That would be almost an intent to defraud students, if that case was true.

OR... is this a clear indication that the NEED for podiatrists is increasing due to baby boomers aging, therefore the need for more pods? It's got to be one or the other.

 

[ProZackMI]

Dr. Zack,
I've seen a few of your posts, and you have this strangely wicked way of doing things. I'm glad to see you've now added the Esq. after your degrees, and you still manage to try to offend yet complement those that are not MDs. Your posts are all over the place; ladies must be knockin' down that door ey?

Since I passed the bar exam (found out my results Friday), I can add Esq. after my name now. 🙂

As for your veiled sarcasm...I was sticking up for podiatry, not attacking it. Also, there is a difference between complement and compliment (hopefully you know the distinction). Furthermore, I don't have anything against non-MD health care providers. I think, that if you had actually read my posts to Osteodog here in the pod section, you'd be able to gather that. In the past, I have made some negative comments about the expanding scope of practice for optometrists. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

As for the ladies knockin' down my door...well, I'm involved with someone, so not really, but I get looks now and then. For an old dude at 35, I can still pass for a college boy 😀 . Unlike many ODs, however, I don't need to go around telling women that I'm a "doctor".

Lastly, about your other comment about ODs being called "doctor"...I've said it before, anyone who has EARNED an accredited degree with the word DOCTOR in it (MD, DO, JD, PhD, DPM, OD, PharmD, ScD, DPH, DVM, whatever) is technically a "doctor" and can go around calling himself that. The DEGREE (not the occupation) makes the holder of the degree a doctor by virtue of the degree. Only in the US and Canada do most common people assume the title Dr. is reserved for physicians. You find that most educated Americans actually know there are many different types of "doctors". Hell, even lawyers, the bottom feeders that they are (and now that I'm one of them, I can say this), are technically "doctors", just don't go around puffing their egos with the title...instead, they use Esq! 🙂

Go figure.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Since I passed the bar exam (found out my results Friday), I can add Esq. after my name now. 🙂

As for your veiled sarcasm...I was sticking up for podiatry, not attacking it. Also, there is a difference between complement and compliment (hopefully you know the distinction). Furthermore, I don't have anything against non-MD health care providers. I think, that if you had actually read my posts to Osteodog here in the pod section, you'd be able to gather that. In the past, I have made some negative comments about the expanding scope of practice for optometrists. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

As for the ladies knockin' down my door...well, I'm involved with someone, so not really, but I get looks now and then. For an old dude at 35, I can still pass for a college boy 😀 . Unlike many ODs, however, I don't need to go around telling women that I'm a "doctor".

Lastly, about your other comment about ODs being called "doctor"...I've said it before, anyone who has EARNED an accredited degree with the word DOCTOR in it (MD, DO, JD, PhD, DPM, OD, PharmD, ScD, DPH, DVM, whatever) is technically a "doctor" and can go around calling himself that. The DEGREE (not the occupation) makes the holder of the degree a doctor by virtue of the degree. Only in the US and Canada do most common people assume the title Dr. is reserved for physicians. You find that most educated Americans actually know there are many different types of "doctors". Hell, even lawyers, the bottom feeders that they are (and now that I'm one of them, I can say this), are technically "doctors", just don't go around puffing their egos with the title...instead, they use Esq! 🙂

Go figure.

I thought that was what the J.D. was a Juris Doctor. My question Mr. Doctor of Medicine and Law, law schools are 3 years of studies; I thought that you needed 4 years for a doctorate?

 

[ProZackMI]

I thought that was what the J.D. was a Juris Doctor. My question Mr. Doctor of Medicine and Law, law schools are 3 years of studies; I thought that you needed 4 years for a doctorate?

I've never heard that before. Many doctorates are 3+ years. You can finish a PhD, in theory, 3 years after your BS degree, in many scientific fields. Length of time for degree is not relevant, it's what the degree encompasses and prepares you for. Many dental and vet degrees were 3 year programs at one time, in fact, some still are. Many med, dental, pharm, chiro, and optometry schools don't even require a completed BA/BS to enter their professional programs. (http://www.ferris.edu/mco/admissions/Pre-Opt2007.htm and http://pt.wayne.edu/WSUPT/WSU PT FUTURE STUDENTS.pdf). Even UMich dental school only requires 60 credits of college rather than a BS (http://www.dent.umich.edu/prospective/dentadmission.html), although most competetive students have a BS when they enter. Law ALWAYS requires a completed BA/BS. That begs the question, can an MD, OD, PharmD, DDS, or other "doctor" really be said to have a doctorate without first having earned a full undergraduate degree? All lawyers in the US have a BA/BS + JD, which equals about 7.5 years of formal education. Some dentists and optos and pharmacists and maybe pods and vets have only 2-3 years of college plus 3-4 years of professional school. University of the Pacific in California has a 6 year DDS program for kids straight out of high school. I think there are some PharmDs that are two years in length, for BS educated pharmacists (and a BS in pharm is 5 years, not 4), and the new DPT degree (Doctor of Physical Therapy) is 3 years in length with no residency. (http://www2.oakland.edu/shs/pt/doctorpt.cfm and http://pt.wayne.edu/WSUPT/Physical Therapy.pdf and


The JD translates to Doctor of Jurisprudence or Doctor of Law. Most law schools, being arrogant, keep the Latin nomenclature (Law Doctor or Juris Doctor). When my dad graduated medical school in the 60s, his diploma read "Medicinae Doctor" rather than Doctor of Medicine. Most medical schools have modernized and changed over to the English Doctor of Medicine. You see some schools keep the old "Philosophae Doctor" for their PhD awards. Leave it to law to keep the Latin tradition up. Many law schools name their degrees Doctor of Jurisprudence or even Doctor of Law. I believe Duke, Yale, Cornell, Wisconsin, and a few others, call the degree Doctor of Law. (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache....pdf+"Doctor+of+Law"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 and http://www.wisc.edu/pubs/home/archives/gopher/law91/00000033.html and http://www.law.uoregon.edu/academics/degree.php) It's the same degree, however. Mine says Juris Doctor.

But, a JD is indeed a doctorate, just a professional doctorate. The length of study is not relevant, it's what the degree encompasses and the depth of the knowledge acquired.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I've never heard that before. Many doctorates are 3+ years. You can finish a PhD, in theory, 3 years after your BS degree, in many scientific fields. Length of time for degree is not relevant, it's what the degree encompasses and prepares you for. Many dental and vet degrees were 3 year programs at one time, in fact, some still are. Many med, dental, pharm, chiro, and optometry schools don't even require a completed BA/BS to enter their professional programs. (http://www.ferris.edu/mco/admissions/Pre-Opt2007.htm and http://pt.wayne.edu/WSUPT/WSU PT FUTURE STUDENTS.pdf). Even UMich dental school only requires 60 credits of college rather than a BS (http://www.dent.umich.edu/prospective/dentadmission.html), although most competetive students have a BS when they enter. Law ALWAYS requires a completed BA/BS. That begs the question, can an MD, OD, PharmD, DDS, or other "doctor" really be said to have a doctorate without first having earned a full undergraduate degree? All lawyers in the US have a BA/BS + JD, which equals about 7.5 years of formal education. Some dentists and optos and pharmacists and maybe pods and vets have only 2-3 years of college plus 3-4 years of professional school. University of the Pacific in California has a 6 year DDS program for kids straight out of high school. I think there are some PharmDs that are two years in length, for BS educated pharmacists (and a BS in pharm is 5 years, not 4), and the new DPT degree (Doctor of Physical Therapy) is 3 years in length with no residency. (http://www2.oakland.edu/shs/pt/doctorpt.cfm and http://pt.wayne.edu/WSUPT/Physical Therapy.pdf and


The JD translates to Doctor of Jurisprudence or Doctor of Law. Most law schools, being arrogant, keep the Latin nomenclature (Law Doctor or Juris Doctor). When my dad graduated medical school in the 60s, his diploma read "Medicinae Doctor" rather than Doctor of Medicine. Most medical schools have modernized and changed over to the English Doctor of Medicine. You see some schools keep the old "Philosophae Doctor" for their PhD awards. Leave it to law to keep the Latin tradition up. Many law schools name their degrees Doctor of Jurisprudence or even Doctor of Law. I believe Duke, Yale, Cornell, Wisconsin, and a few others, call the degree Doctor of Law. (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache....pdf+"Doctor+of+Law"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 and http://www.wisc.edu/pubs/home/archives/gopher/law91/00000033.html and http://www.law.uoregon.edu/academics/degree.php) It's the same degree, however. Mine says Juris Doctor.

But, a JD is indeed a doctorate, just a professional doctorate. The length of study is not relevant, it's what the degree encompasses and the depth of the knowledge acquired.

I wasn't trying to degrade law school. I was thinking about becoming a lawyer in a past life. I was just stating a fact that always puzzled me. I've known about the early entrance for most if not all medical programs.

 

[Podman]

And another thing, while we're at it. Is this just a supply and demand thing or does this mean more schools are taking in more students -- solely to make more money from tuition -- only to dismiss them either academically or some other way, since residencies won't have slots available for them anyway? That would be almost an intent to defraud students, if that case was true.

OR... is this a clear indication that the NEED for podiatrists is increasing due to baby boomers aging, therefore the need for more pods? It's got to be one or the other.

The answer is a bit of both - yes there are schools out there who will admit qualified people who genuinely want to serve the public with their craft and knowledge in addition to people who know nothing about podiatry and would not be admited to any other professional program. Business and money-making are important ingredient for some podiatry schools - this is a fact. At the same time, there is a need for better trained podiatrists - not for the sake of filling the void seats of the retiring baby-boomer podiatrists. 15-20 years ago, the odds of landing a 2-year surgical residency were very rare - now it is becoming common and a requirement for pods to have a minimum of 2 yrs of training under their belt - so quality of course is better and it shows in our clinical work and research.

As you start podiatry school, you will see that school is challenging and usually the best of the 'pool' are the ones who earn the DPM initials beside their name. So, worry about your own part with doing well in school first and foremost. With regards to residencies, they are competitive - no doubt about that. Yes, Alot of them are 3 years and 2 years but they are still competitive so your preperations for them begin from day 1 of class - probably gross anatomy (at least that was the case for me ). I wish you the best of luck

 

[Dzcnfusing]

In February, I sat for the bar exam and will find out next week whether I passed. If I did pass, I will leave medicine and move over into law and not look back.

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

 

[doclm]

The answer is a bit of both - yes there are schools out there who will admit qualified people who genuinely want to serve the public with their craft and knowledge in addition to people who know nothing about podiatry and would not be admited to any other professional program. Business and money-making are important ingredient for some podiatry schools - this is a fact. At the same time, there is a need for better trained podiatrists - not for the sake of filling the void seats of the retiring baby-boomer podiatrists. 15-20 years ago, the odds of landing a 2-year surgical residency were very rare - now it is becoming common and a requirement for pods to have a minimum of 2 yrs of training under their belt - so quality of course is better and it shows in our clinical work and research.

As you start podiatry school, you will see that school is challenging and usually the best of the 'pool' are the ones who earn the DPM initials beside their name. So, worry about your own part with doing well in school first and foremost. With regards to residencies, they are competitive - no doubt about that. Yes, Alot of them are 3 years and 2 years but they are still competitive so your preperations for them begin from day 1 of class - probably gross anatomy (at least that was the case for me ). I wish you the best of luck [/QUOT

I thought that graduating DPM's in a year from now, will only be able to do a PM&S-24 or PM&S-36. I can imagine that it would be more competitive to get a 3 year because most people want the extra training, but isn't the 2 year almost guranteed for some of the DPM grads that did well in classes and passed the boards?

 

[krabmas]

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

why wouldn't you use Dr. and MD together? if you just use Dr. how would someone know what type of Dr. you were?

What if "g-d forbid" they thought the Dr. meant podiatry?

 

[Sosumi]

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

I'd hate to jump in, but what's so hard to understand? He took the bar last February and it takes around 6 weeks to get your results so at the time he posted (in March), he was expecting the results in a week. Also, J.D. and Esq. isn't that redundant... I see nurses have RN, BSN on their name badges all the time. Finally, his post about calling the OD wasn't that he was annoyed about being called Mr. but rather the receptionist was so insistent in saying "The Doctor will see you", rather than Dr. So and So will see you.

 

[jonwill]

Why the sharp increase between the Class of 2006 and 2010?
Things getting better in Podiatry?

360+160=520

Is it possible for some of the people graduating with a DPM in the future to not get any residencies? Is it possible that your #'s not reflecting dropouts?

Don't mean to question you.
Thanks for your input.

These numbers have changed a little (especially 08 and 09) due to attrition but the point is that the classes are getting bigger. My guess is that 2008 now has low to mid 400’s and 2009 probably has upper 400’s. The greatest attrition occurs during the first year. These class sizes are obviously due to more individuals applying AND schools accepting more. However, the application pool this year was no bigger than the application pool last year. These are healthy numbers because it creates competition and everybody gets a residency but the better students get the better residencies. I would hope that classes not get much bigger than this though. I can pretty much guarantee you that the class of 2010 will have around 600 starting. But with attrition, they should still be ok.
You raise a good question about there being more students than residency slots. The profession has been there before (just ask osteodog). Many are adamant that this not happen again because it really hurt podiatry.

 

[Podman]

The answer is a bit of both - yes there are schools out there who will admit qualified people who genuinely want to serve the public with their craft and knowledge in addition to people who know nothing about podiatry and would not be admited to any other professional program. Business and money-making are important ingredient for some podiatry schools - this is a fact. At the same time, there is a need for better trained podiatrists - not for the sake of filling the void seats of the retiring baby-boomer podiatrists. 15-20 years ago, the odds of landing a 2-year surgical residency were very rare - now it is becoming common and a requirement for pods to have a minimum of 2 yrs of training under their belt - so quality of course is better and it shows in our clinical work and research.

As you start podiatry school, you will see that school is challenging and usually the best of the 'pool' are the ones who earn the DPM initials beside their name. So, worry about your own part with doing well in school first and foremost. With regards to residencies, they are competitive - no doubt about that. Yes, Alot of them are 3 years and 2 years but they are still competitive so your preperations for them begin from day 1 of class - probably gross anatomy (at least that was the case for me ). I wish you the best of luck [/QUOT

I thought that graduating DPM's in a year from now, will only be able to do a PM&S-24 or PM&S-36. I can imagine that it would be more competitive to get a 3 year because most people want the extra training, but isn't the 2 year almost guranteed for some of the DPM grads that did well in classes and passed the boards?

Yes, the 2-year one is going to be the minimum standard but even by the minimum standard, one must pass the boards and of course earn the degree. I know at most schools (if not all), you can't get your degree without passing part I of the boards. Then of course there is the matching process.

Residencies are competitive because not all the residency programs are the same - each one offers something different and something special - the Yale program for instance is possibly the best or one of the top 3 in the country - their requirements are stronger - usually 4.0 or top class finish. I think they specialize in trauma. However, you can find another "less glamorous" PM&S-36 that offers something completely different which you might find more appealing like wound care, etc.

So programs vary, and each program has something different - when you get to start visiting the programs and start meeting with the residents/directors you'll see the variety for yourself and hopefully get a better picture of what you want to do professionally.

 

[doclm]

These numbers have changed a little (especially 08 and 09) due to attrition but the point is that the classes are getting bigger. My guess is that 2008 now has low to mid 400’s and 2009 probably has upper 400’s. The greatest attrition occurs during the first year. These class sizes are obviously due to more individuals applying AND schools accepting more. However, the application pool this year was no bigger than the application pool last year. These are healthy numbers because it creates competition and everybody gets a residency but the better students get the better residencies. I would hope that classes not get much bigger than this though. I can pretty much guarantee you that the class of 2010 will have around 600 starting. But with attrition, they should still be ok.
You raise a good question about there being more students than residency slots. The profession has been there before (just ask osteodog). Many are adamant that this not happen again because it really hurt podiatry.

Thanks for your response. 👍

Do you know if the DPM schools are putting caps on the number of applicants accepted?

 

[doclm]

Yes, the 2-year one is going to be the minimum standard but even by the minimum standard, one must pass the boards and of course earn the degree. I know at most schools (if not all), you can't get your degree without passing part I of the boards. Then of course there is the matching process.

Residencies are competitive because not all the residency programs are the same - each one offers something different and something special - the Yale program for instance is possibly the best or one of the top 3 in the country - their requirements are stronger - usually 4.0 or top class finish. I think they specialize in trauma. However, you can find another "less glamorous" PM&S-36 that offers something completely different which you might find more appealing like wound care, etc.

So programs vary, and each program has something different - when you get to start visiting the programs and start meeting with the residents/directors you'll see the variety for yourself and hopefully get a better picture of what you want to do professionally.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

 

[jonwill]

Thanks for your response. 👍

Do you know if the DPM schools are putting caps on the number of applicants accepted?

The Counsel of Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) gives each school a maximum amount of students that they could educate when the school is accredited and re-accredited. So, it could never get too far out of hand. I know that DMU is 65 (but they choose not to let the class sizes get much over 50). I would be curious to see each school's "cap" set by the CPME. If we could get all of them, we could do the math. I do not know if colleges have always had this. From the horror stories told in the late 80's - early 90's, you would think not. Maybe someone from that era could better inform us.

 

[gustydoc]

The Counsel of Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) gives each school a maximum amount of students that they could educate when the school is accredited and re-accredited. So, it could never get too far out of hand. I know that DMU is 65 (but they choose not to let the class sizes get much over 50). I would be curious to see each school's "cap" set by the CPME. If we could get all of them, we could do the math. I do not know if colleges have always had this. From the horror stories told in the late 80's - early 90's, you would think not. Maybe someone from that era could better inform us.

doclm, Jon is being nice when it come to answering your question about whether or not all the schools are capping their enrollment. As he mentioned there was a time not long ago where the greed of many of the schools led to a generation of podiatrists who were robbed of the opportunity to receive a decent residency education and a chance to reach their full potential. Imagine if you continued to work as hard as you are in medical school and then found out that unfortunately too many students were accepted and there is not a spot for you, so you have to go out and practice without any surgical or hospital training. I know multiple podiatrists who went through school and experienced this first hand. For me it would be hard not to become cynical towards the profession in which you have invested so much and received nothing in return. When you hear about the podiatric hate forums and negativity on the internet 9 times out of 10 it is a result of the docs who went through school when the schools let the students down. Today there are more residency spots than students and the quality of the education we receive has never been better (at least at DMU). The issue of capping enrollment is something that needs to remain a concern for not only future DPM classes but for all of us. Some of the deans have already set a cap on enrollment (DMU and AZPOD) and called for others to do the same, but clearly many have not. Look at the enrollment numbers for some of the schools and you will see that there may be alternative motives for the growing number of pod students accepted($). Why not continue to accept number of applicants equal to the number of res spots, but increase your admissions standards rather than increase the number of students you accept? It has taken over a decade for the quality of the applicant pool in podiatry to get back to where it should be and I am convinced that if the number of students surpasses the available spots again the profession may not be able to handle it. On a more positive not I must say that as of right now any student enrolled in a podiatric medical program can rest assured that he/she will receive at least two year of surgical training. I hope that the same can be said for our future classmates and colleagues. There has never been a better time to be a podiatric medical student than right now and hopefully the decisions made in the future by those who are the leaders in podiatric medical education will take into account the best interest of the students and profession as a whole.

 

[oncogene]

Wouldn't the profession encourage an increase in the number of residency slots offered as the applicant pool increases and stabalizes over a number of years? I mean it will have to if podiatry is to keep up with the demand all of us anticipate.

 

[capo]

Wouldn't the profession encourage an increase in the number of residency slots offered as the applicant pool increases and stabalizes over a number of years? I mean it will have to if podiatry is to keep up with the demand all of us anticipate.

That is the very problem. I'm not sure the medical community at-large, sees the need for pods as much as we do. Also, will insurance companies pickup more podiatric services, etc.? Not guaranteed is the increase in slots either, as who cares about pods, again, more than pods themselves? Many hospitals are still old-school and refuse pods admittance to staff.

Not to paint a bad pic or cast shadows of doubt, but it is true that the profession still hasn't gained full acceptance in mainstream meds. I personally don't care about that, I want to do it irregardless. But I'm not sure this won't reflect in big trouble for the profession somewhere down the road, insurance-wise or somewhere else.

I think some of the pods vets on here can better ascertain the future of billing and hospital priviledge's too. I think this is a great forum, as we all try to pull together for a common cause. But I hope more outsiders to podiatry, recognize the talent and desire we have toward a helping profession.

 

[Podman]

That is the very problem. I'm not sure the medical community at-large, sees the need for pods as much as we do. Also, will insurance companies pickup more podiatric services, etc.? Not guaranteed is the increase in slots either, as who cares about pods, again, more than pods themselves? Many hospitals are still old-school and refuse pods admittance to staff.

Not to paint a bad pic or cast shadows of doubt, but it is true that the profession still hasn't gained full acceptance in mainstream meds. I personally don't care about that, I want to do it irregardless. But I'm not sure this won't reflect in big trouble for the profession somewhere down the road, insurance-wise or somewhere else.

I think some of the pods vets on here can better ascertain the future of billing and hospital priviledge's too. I think this is a great forum, as we all try to pull together for a common cause. But I hope more outsiders to podiatry, recognize the talent and desire we have toward a helping profession.

Capo, The problem of hospital privilidges has multiple factors - most being political with respect to state laws and practice scope. The medical community recognizes the value of a well-trained expert on foot and ankle conditions but may or may not recognize the 'urgent need' for one. This is where the business side to podiatry and medicine in general is important - you have to start developing networks and think about where to practice and how to serve the community early on - develop a strategy and a plan ahead. Remember that our profession is standing with the support of roughly 14,000 active podiatrists in the country - we're a small specialty and the number is even smaller when we're talking about the surgically-trained "breed". So consequently, the need to develop networks early on is very essential.

On a professional level, we are headed in the right direction because better training = better exposure and interaction with other medical colleagues and specialists, which means better understanding and communication between both groups. Until recently, some of my friends at the MD school (case western reserve) did not realize that we are trained to do such procedures as reconstructive foot surgeries - this isn't necessarily ignorance on their part, but rather it is merely due to a lack of exposure to well-trained podiatrists. Now, with the new 2-3 year residency model, hopefuly we can raise more awareness of who we are and what we do through the quality of our services - and this will ultimately help our battle with unifying the scope of practice across all states and perhaps promote more podiatrists on hospital staff, etc.

 

[ProZackMI]

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

My "story" changes every time? Look, I don't understand your problem with me, but I'll address your "concerns". On Tuesday, February 21 and Wednesday, February 22, 2006, I sat for the Michigan Bar Exam. This exam is offered twice a year; July and February. I graduated from law school last May, but waited to take the bar exam until this February (missing the July 2005 exam). At the bar exam, they tell you "expect your results sometime in mid to late May". So, when someone on this thread asked me about me being an attorney, I said I said that I would know sometime next week whether I passed the exam. I made this comment about a week ago -- sometime last week. I did not know an exact date and was making an estimate. I just knew that if all went well, in about "two weeks" I would know either way. They don't give you an exact date when you get your bar passage results. Friday, at work, I received an e-mail saying that the bar passage results were posted on the state bar website www.michbar.org. The list includes partial SSNs, so I saw that I passed. It was earlier than expected. I get sworn in Tuesday. The official results come via the mail sometime this week (includes your actual numeric score).

How is this is a mystery to you if you actually have your JD? I'm not sure if you're actually licensed, but this is commonly how it's done. They don't tell you "On May 5, 2006, your results will be posted." They simply say "Expect your results to be posted sometime in mid to late May."

You see more and more younger attorneys use JD in some writings rather than Esq. You're right...you don't see both JD and Esq...I added it to my profile because I'm proud of my achievement. Sorry if that offends you. I see many others on here list their GPAs, test results, year of expected graduation, and append titles to their names, like DrTrek, who hasn't earned a doctorate yet, etc., but no one seems to complain about that. 🙂

I never once complained that an OD called me Mr. Apparently reading comprehension isn't your forte, so I'll repeat my complaint so even you can understand. I was at the optometrist's office waiting for my eye exam. The receptionist called my name and addressed me as Mr. I didn't give a rat's ass. However, what struck me as funny, and somewhat pretentious, was that she said "Mr. S., the DOCTOR will see you now!" I'm at an optometrist's office. I thought that was rather...pretentious and out of place for an OD who is around my age (early to mid 30s). Even my staff does not refer to me as "THE DOCTOR", but rather Dr. S. Is there a distinction? Yes, there is. I just thought it was puffery, but it may have been the receptionist, not the optometrist who was at fault there. I NEVER EVER said an OD should not be called "doctor". I said it would have been more appropriate and less arrogant for the receptionist to say "Dr McCreery will see you now, Mr. S." or "You can go in now." or something along those lines.

The only other thing I've said about ODs is that I do not believe there would be any logical reason to have them on the attending staff at a hospital. They can work as staff at low vision clinics and VA hospitals, but they have no business having hospital privis. I also commented on the liability of employing them in the ER for ocular triage. Those comments were my opinion, not fact. I was addressing a question posed in a particular thread.

For your sake, before you take the bar exam, and before you sit for any pharm exams, you should go back and take some remedial courses in reading comprehension. I think it might help you out in the long run. You either have a learning disability or an personality disorder. Stop reading so much into things and ease up a bit.

 

[ProZackMI]

I'd hate to jump in, but what's so hard to understand? He took the bar last February and it takes around 6 weeks to get your results so at the time he posted (in March), he was expecting the results in a week. Also, J.D. and Esq. isn't that redundant... I see nurses have RN, BSN on their name badges all the time. Finally, his post about calling the OD wasn't that he was annoyed about being called Mr. but rather the receptionist was so insistent in saying "The Doctor will see you", rather than Dr. So and So will see you.

Thank you. It's nice to see someone has an unimpaired cerebral cortex! 🙂

 

[ProZackMI]

Your stories change all the time. You say you found out this friday and not next week huh about passing? Also, as an almost dual-attorney health care professional (NOT MD though - I'm done with the JD working on the PharmD), we never use JD and Esq. It's one or the other. Just like you wouldn't use Dr. and MD together. Second, you said you were annoyed that an OD called you Mr and then you say that they should be called dr. As for your girl, she's one lucky gal.

It must have been difficult for you to get into a dual JD-PharmD program with that TBI. The cognitive sequelae appear to catastrophic. You know, if law-pharmacy doesn't pan out, you could always get into chiro school. With your reading and processing skills, you would do fantastic in that field! 🙂

You know, I suspect you joined SDN to comment on my posts. You only have three posts and they are all in response to rather innocuous statements that I have made. I suppose I should be flattered by your stalking behaviour, but I suggest you move on and make some real posts or leave SDN. It might also help if you took your meds regularly.

 

[jonwill]

Thanks for your response. 👍

Do you know if the DPM schools are putting caps on the number of applicants accepted?

To further answer your question concerning "caps", CPME Document 120 states the following under Standard 5 and is determined during accredidation/re-accredidation of a college:

B. Maximum Enrollment - A policy specifying the maximum number of students to be enrolled shall be established with consideration given to the capacity and appropriateness of the physical resources, size and quality of the faculty, number of administrative personnel, volume and diversity of clinical teaching material, and availability of affiliated clinical services.

 Tuition dependency does not precipitate the enrollment of more students than available resources can support.

 The attrition rate is reasonable in relation to class size.


However, I wasn't able to find the actual numbers anywhere.

 

[doclm]

To further answer your question concerning "caps", CPME Document 120 states the following under Standard 5 and is determined during accredidation/re-accredidation of a college:

B. Maximum Enrollment - A policy specifying the maximum number of students to be enrolled shall be established with consideration given to the capacity and appropriateness of the physical resources, size and quality of the faculty, number of administrative personnel, volume and diversity of clinical teaching material, and availability of affiliated clinical services.

 Tuition dependency does not precipitate the enrollment of more students than available resources can support.

 The attrition rate is reasonable in relation to class size.


However, I wasn't able to find the actual numbers anywhere.

Wow, thanks for the feedback.
Did you look this up under the CPME website? I'll do some research myself.

Thanks for the info. 👍

 

[WildcatDMD]

I never once complained that an OD called me Mr. Apparently reading comprehension isn't your forte, so I'll repeat my complaint so even you can understand. I was at the optometrist's office waiting for my eye exam. The receptionist called my name and addressed me as Mr. I didn't give a rat's ass. However, what struck me as funny, and somewhat pretentious, was that she said "Mr. S., the DOCTOR will see you now!" I'm at an optometrist's office. I thought that was rather...pretentious and out of place for an OD who is around my age (early to mid 30s). Even my staff does not refer to me as "THE DOCTOR", but rather Dr. S. Is there a distinction? Yes, there is. I just thought it was puffery, but it may have been the receptionist, not the optometrist who was at fault there. I NEVER EVER said an OD should not be called "doctor". I said it would have been more appropriate and less arrogant for the receptionist to say "Dr McCreery will see you now, Mr. S." or "You can go in now." or something along those lines.

I know I'm going to regret this post, but I think you are putting far too much value on what the receptionist said. There is absolutely nothing "pretentious" or "arrogant" in her saying, "The doctor will see you now." In the OD's office the OD is "the doctor". Not as you are emphasizing, "The DOCTOR," but simply "the doctor". From my understanding, that is the terminology used around these offices, and I see nothing wrong with it. I am certain that she wasn't implying that he was "a doctor" as in physician with an MD/DO.

It is to differentiate "the doctor" from the other staff that are also working in the office. The same often applies in dental offices and I assume podiatrists' offices. There is nothing pretentious about it, that is just his/her title and position in his/her place of work. During my time in rotations in a health center and at my current day-a-week job as a dental assistant in private practice, I often hear the dentists referred to as "doctors" without their last name following.

It was necessary at the community health center I rotated through (since there were multiple dentists working, and for any new patient it was often not known prior to seating the patient by whom they would be treated) to tell the patient after histories and radiographs were taken, "The doctor will be in in a bit." It sounds cumbersome to say, "The dentist will be in shortly". It is also to let the patient know that it will be the dentist (the doctor) visiting them next rather than an assistant or hygienist. Would this also strike you as pretentious?

Likewise, in private practice, it is very common for people to just refer to the dentists as "the doctors" as that is thier position. Ex. The owner dentist, "is thinking about hiring another doctor." This doesn't imply any arrogance or pretentiousness, nor does it imply that he is hiring an MD, nor that he believes that dentists are MDs.

I think it is your own view of the Medical Doctor as holding such a high social status that when you hear someone else use the sacred word "doctor" they also appear to be holding them to this god-like status. In truth, that is the person's rightful title in their office, and is simply a way to differentiate between the different healthcare workers within this infrastructure.

It may be necessary in a hospital setting to distinguish that this doctor or that doctor is a physician (MD/DO), a dentist (DMD/DDS), a podiatrist (DPM), or an optometrist (OD), but in thier repective places of work, each of them is certainly "the doctor".

I see nothing wrong with that, but of course, I'm only a dental student.

 

[doclm]

To further answer your question concerning "caps", CPME Document 120 states the following under Standard 5 and is determined during accredidation/re-accredidation of a college:

B. Maximum Enrollment - A policy specifying the maximum number of students to be enrolled shall be established with consideration given to the capacity and appropriateness of the physical resources, size and quality of the faculty, number of administrative personnel, volume and diversity of clinical teaching material, and availability of affiliated clinical services.

 Tuition dependency does not precipitate the enrollment of more students than available resources can support.

 The attrition rate is reasonable in relation to class size.


However, I wasn't able to find the actual numbers anywhere.

I looked up the CPME policy on accredidation of Podiatric Medical Colleges. It appears to be solid in its expectations of the Podiatric Medical College.

I wonder if the caps will change after the next accredidation?

Here's their dates for each school: http://www.apma.org/s_apma/bin.asp?CID=299&DID=9191&DOC=FILE.DOC

 

[whiskers]

Repeat

 

[whiskers]

Good gawd, are some of us really that hung up on this degree thing?

Professional school is nonsense and most of you know it....

Professional school makes you an old middle class resident who spent their youth chasing after the ultimate "envy" getter.... But it's funny to see that no one really cares what job you have or how you squandered your youth....

End of story.


Good luck and enjoy eating your egos in the real world.... Doctors and egomaniacs alike!!!!

 

[rahulazcom]

I'm a DO student. We take many classes alongside the podiatry students. I know many of the podiatry students personally, and they could have easily gotten into our program should they have wanted to become DO's. Some of the brightest students in our program are podiatry students. I have nothing but respect for them. The Pods I spoke with chose their field over MD/DO because they wanted to do surgery. As an MD/DO, doing surgery would have been really difficult to attain because general surgery and orthopedic surgery are really difficult to match into. And second, they enjoyed the improved lifestyle and flexibility associated with being a podiatrist. Yes, Family Practicie physicians can technically perform some surgeries but most of them don't particularly in large metropolitan areas. Most of the FP's who perform surgeries are located in small towns and other areas where patients don't have other surgical options to turn to.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I'm a DO student. We take many classes alongside the podiatry students. I know many of the podiatry students personally, and they could have easily gotten into our program should they have wanted to become DO's. Some of the brightest students in our program are podiatry students. I have nothing but respect for them. The Pods I spoke with chose their field over MD/DO because they wanted to do surgery. As an MD/DO, doing surgery would have been really difficult to attain because general surgery and orthopedic surgery are really difficult to match into. And second, they enjoyed the improved lifestyle and flexibility associated with being a podiatrist. Yes, Family Practicie physicians can technically perform some surgeries but most of them don't particularly in large metropolitan areas. Most of the FP's who perform surgeries are located in small towns and other areas where patients don't have other surgical options to turn to.

Are you a DMU'er?

 

[doclm]

I'm a DO student. We take many classes alongside the podiatry students. I know many of the podiatry students personally, and they could have easily gotten into our program should they have wanted to become DO's. Some of the brightest students in our program are podiatry students. I have nothing but respect for them. The Pods I spoke with chose their field over MD/DO because they wanted to do surgery. As an MD/DO, doing surgery would have been really difficult to attain because general surgery and orthopedic surgery are really difficult to match into. And second, they enjoyed the improved lifestyle and flexibility associated with being a podiatrist. Yes, Family Practicie physicians can technically perform some surgeries but most of them don't particularly in large metropolitan areas. Most of the FP's who perform surgeries are located in small towns and other areas where patients don't have other surgical options to turn to.

Thanks for your feedback 👍

 

[AZPOD Rocks]

Are you a DMU'er?

Look at his name... he is from AZCOM. 🙂