Why even have MD if DO=MD+ more training?

[MedHrdMedOftn]

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Ladies and gentleman, prepares yourselfs for a battle we have seen too many times before. So better yet, if you don't have anythin nice to say leave at on a admins wall- cause he's just gonna find it anyway.


That being said,

Many will admit DOs=MDs + some osteopathic training.... Yet Many if not all MDs do not have osteopathic training. so, why have MDs at all?

Just a question (I always was the best middle schooler to start off a heated round of discussion in class #shouldabeenalawyer) .

BEGIN!

 

[Blarry]

really you had to do this?

 

[iniquus]

Ladies and gentleman, prepares yourselfs for a battle we have seen too many times before. So better yet, if you don't have anythin nice to say leave at on a admins wall- cause he's just gonna find it anyway.

No

Just a question (I always was the best middle schooler to start off a heated round of discussion in class #shouldabeenalawyer) .

BEGIN!

Are you still in middle school? Or maybe you really should be a lawyer instead? This is the worst thread, clogging the forum, just looking to cause some heated, opinionated arguments.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

 

[Onres]

I think it's a fair question. Many people claim there is no difference as far as job/residency prospects. If that's the case, technically DOs have skills MDs don't.

 

[iniquus]

I think it's a fair question. Many people claim there is no difference as far as job/residency prospects. If that's the case, technically DOs have skills MDs don't.

I'm not saying they're not equivalent, but they don't have the same rate of residency/job placements into the more competitive specialties/sub-specialties.

For what it's worth, which is very little, MD is more widely recognized, and if you want to train/practice internationally, the DO may encounter some closed doors.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm not saying they're not equivalent, but they don't have the same rate of residency/job placements into the more competitive specialties/sub-specialties.

For what it's worth, which is very little, MD is more widely recognized, and if you want to train/practice internationally, the DO may encounter some closed doors.

This really is a non-point. Most nations which do not recognize an USDO will not recognize a USMD and furthermore many nations do recognize them.

 

[Jack is Back]

Super stupid.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

😎

 

[pkwraith]

MD and DOs don't spend different amount of time in school. For any time dedicated to manipulation, DO will be deficient in the time spent on something else that MD has.

"DO = MD + manipulation" as a phrase is ultimatly simplistic of a more complicated situation. I think DOs simply say that as an easy answer to casuals. I doubt anyone really believes that they have the same exact education as MDs plus they learned more things.

 

[willen101383]

MD and DOs don't spend different amount of time in school. For any time dedicated to manipulation, DO will be deficient in the time spent on something else that MD has.

"DO = MD + manipulation" as a phrase is ultimatly simplistic of a more complicated situation. I think DOs simply say that as an easy answer to casuals. I doubt anyone really believes that they have the same exact education as MDs plus they learned more things.

There is absolutely nothing left out of our curriculum that any MD student gets. Its the same curriculum with OMM stuffed in at the most inconvenient and poorly thought out locations in our schedule. Same curriculum guys. Oldest misconception in the book.

 

[pkwraith]

There is absolutely nothing left out of our curriculum that any MD student gets. Its the same curriculum with OMM stuffed in at the most inconvenient and poorly thought out locations in our schedule. Same curriculum guys. Oldest misconception in the book.

How is this a misconception? 200 hours of OMM has to be stuck somewhere. Obviously, the curriculum isn't the same if DO has OMM and MD doesn't.

DO and MD curriculum are equivilant.. They are not the same curriculum. Just like MD schools also have variances within themselves. And DO schools also have variances.

"DO = MD + OMM" is ultimatly inaccurate, as it's making assumptions that DO have superior education. A better platonic would be "DO has equivilant education to MD, including study in OMM"

 

[boobelle]

I'm not saying they're not equivalent, but they don't have the same rate of residency/job placements into the more competitive specialties/sub-specialties.

This is true...all you have to do is look in the residency forums and look for the multiple "DO trying to get into ___" threads. What you might not be aware of, OP, is that just like there are allo and osteo med schools there are allo and osteo residencies, and it's harder to get into an allo residency (what you're probably thinking of in terms of residency) as a DO. Certainly not impossible, but harder for many DO applicants (vs. matching to an osteo residency). E.g., I'm a resident at one of the major hospitals for my city/region, and among all of the incoming interns for the entire hospital there is one DO. Sure, I don't know exactly how many applied, but I do know it's a decent number.

Also, OP, you seem to be confused about DO...perhaps you meant PA? They're the ones who don't have as much required training as MDs, but the trade off is it's an entirely different job.

 

[Tapepsi]

Something interesting for everyone to ponder. Want to know why the number of D.O. schools and D.O. classes are drastically increasing? So that more and more D.O.'s will have to go into the AOA residencies (which are mostly primary care).

In the future it may be the case that D.O.s won't be able to get into M.D. residencies so it may be less = than we originally thought.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Having separate MD and DO is fine. It would suck if medical education would become a monopoly and be controlled just by the AAMC. Basically, it's a good thing that there is two ways into the medical field. I mean would you really care if your doctor is an MD or DO? Doubt it.

 

[CodeBlu]

This thread again... sigh.

 

[johnmendes]

Correction: European countries mainly, don't recognize osteopathy as a medical degree per se (for example mine, portugal, doesn't). US alo will still need to go through exams to get recognized. This is because here osteopathy is seen as a CAM (complementary alternative medicine), and they aren't taught nearly as much as "traditional" doctors. The focus is on OMM (which is... well it is what it is)

 

[45408]

Many will admit DOs=MDs + some osteopathic training.... Yet Many if not all MDs do not have osteopathic training. so, why have MDs at all?

Because we don't need OMM training?

 

[Tapepsi]

Because we don't need OMM training?

+1 Even the majority of DO's don't use OMM after med school. I remember students from one DO school telling me during my interview there that they don't plan on using OMM but that it has helped teach them how to properly touch a patient (nopervert).

 

[Law2Doc]

?..

DO and MD curriculum are equivilant.. They are not the same curriculum. Just like MD schools also have variances within themselves. And DO schools also have variances.

"DO = MD + OMM" is ultimatly inaccurate, as it's making assumptions that DO have superior education. A better platonic would be "DO has equivilant education to MD, including study in OMM"

agreed. MDs and DOs don't have appreciably different number of total course hours. So to the Extent the have OmM in their courseload, those hours come from something else. This is not a misconception. And as a resident who has worked with both MD and DO med students, there is some difference in knowledge base. It's not DO = MD + OMM, it's really DO minus a lot of depth in courses like biochem, histo = MD + OMM.
So yeah, the education is more or less equivalent but you are ignoring reality if you think that by virtue of adding OMM it isn't coming at the expense of something.
Anyone who has been to an MD med school will tell you that it is a very full schedule with more than you can really learn during the preclinical years. So to say, let's add another course to a course load where folks are already not having time to know everything they should, that really means you know some other things a bit more superficially. Which is fine if you are shooting for something more or less equivalent, which is what osteopathy has done. If you are shooting for something superior, there is no way to do it without adding another semester/year. So OP, don't buy into the foolishness. DO is adequate education to get folks into a lot of specialties. Nothing more. It is an offshoot from the traditional allopathic medicine, based on philosophical differences. They have struggled for years just to get declared equivalent. So don't buy into some premed's fantasy that they have left allo in the dust. They haven't.

 

[CodeBlu]

+1 Even the majority of DO's don't use OMM after med school. I remember students from one DO school telling me during my interview there that they don't plan on using OMM but that it has helped teach them how to properly touch a patient (nopervert).

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Doctor246853]

I think it's a fair question. Many people claim there is no difference as far as job/residency prospects. If that's the case, technically DOs have skills MDs don't.

This thread actually makes sense. You would at least think that DO school would be more popular between the two. Honestly I dont know what the whohaww is about MD over DO when DO has more handson training and takes more tests.😕

 

[Law2Doc]

Having separate MD and DO is fine. It would suck if medical education would become a monopoly and be controlled just by the AAMC. Basically, it's a good thing that there is two ways into the medical field. I mean would you really care if your doctor is an MD or DO? Doubt it.

Except that they aren't separate at the other end. They may not be controlled by the AAMC, but enough osteos go into allo residencies that they ultimately get governed by the same body anyhow during their training. As far as caring whether your doctor was MD or DO, you probably wouldn't, but it does create confusion, and it would be comforting to know that every doctor you might see met the same standards, rather than merely equivalent ones. It's probably time to declare osteopathy a failed experiment in terms of philosophical practice differences and merge them back into the MD world.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

This thread actually makes sense. You would at least think that DO school would be more popular between the two. Honestly I dont know what the whohaww is about MD over DO when DO has more handson training and takes more tests.😕

Less popular, less competition. Shh!

 

[911 Turbo]

Why are the standards of DO schools lower than MD schools? I never understood this. I would imagine because the standards are lower a lot of people look down on DOs.

 

[Doctor246853]

why are the standards of do schools lower than md schools? I never understood this. I would imagine because the standards are lower a lot of people look down on dos.

+1

 

[Law2Doc]

This thread actually makes sense. You would at least think that DO school would be more popular between the two. Honestly I dont know what the whohaww is about MD over DO when DO has more handson training and takes more tests.😕

I don't actually think they take more tests, unless they desire to come back into the allopathic fold for residency. The main reasons DO isn't as popular is because there are only a small fraction of DO med schools compared to MD, because osteopaths have done well regionally but there are lots of places nationally where they have not really established themselves yet, and because they drastically lag behind MD students in terms of getting into the more competitive residencies. If you have a choice between MD and DO and you think you might be interested in doing rad onc, derm, optho, ortho, well the decision isn't hard to make. Even if you don't know if such fields are for you, you might want the option. And yes I know there have been 1 or 2 osteopaths who land competitive residencies each year, and yes osteo has a few of their own competitive residencies, but the percentage simply isn't as good, no matter how you slice it.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Except that they aren't separate at the other end. They may not be controlled by the AAMC, but enough osteos go into allo residencies that they ultimately get governed by the same body anyhow during their training.

Since I don't have any experience in terms of either schools I am just talking from the admission perspective. Your application basically gets eaten alive by the aamc, whereas with the DO's equivalent you can still get in even without the perfect stats.

So when you look at the fact that both still get to have basically the same medical education, it is kind of comforting to have DO around.

Basically, I am not complaining about aamc once you actually have your put in the door, I am complaining about them during admission. 😀

 

[Decicco]

I think we should get rid of both and only have nurses.

 

[Law2Doc]

Why are the standards of DO schools lower than MD schools? I never understood this. I would imagine because the standards are lower a lot of people look down on DOs.

No, the admissions works more like the issue of being the small hyena(osteo) in a cage with a very big lion (allo). The hyena goes after the food that's left over after the lion has his fill.

 

[eugenierose]

you can't really be this dumb.

 

[iniquus]

Why are the standards of DO schools lower than MD schools? I never understood this. I would imagine because the standards are lower a lot of people look down on DOs.

Because for the most part with some exceptions, DO schools aren't the same quality as MD schools. For the most part, I'd attribute this largely to research. While DO schools don't aim to be research powerhouses, their lack of research as a collective whole means less money, less growth, less recognition, etc. Research fuels medicine.

Edit: And not to shout a school out, but look at this DO school. Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Touro-college-harlem.jpg

 

[Law2Doc]

...

Basically, I am not complaining about aamc once you actually have your put in the door, I am complaining about them during admission. 😀

trust me, once you get through that door it's a whole new set of worries. You aren't at the end of the race, just the starting gate.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

I think we should get rid of both and only have nurses.

I am not cute enough to be a nurse. 🙁

 

[Decicco]

I am not cute enough to be a nurse. 🙁

RN=MD+cuteness

 

[willen101383]

How is this a misconception? 200 hours of OMM has to be stuck somewhere. Obviously, the curriculum isn't the same if DO has OMM and MD doesn't.

DO and MD curriculum are equivilant.. They are not the same curriculum. Just like MD schools also have variances within themselves. And DO schools also have variances.

"DO = MD + OMM" is ultimatly inaccurate, as it's making assumptions that DO have superior education. A better platonic would be "DO has equivilant education to MD, including study in OMM"

Im sure it was so difficult to infer that I meant they were equivalent. I chose the wrong word...my bad. And I dont think the DO pathway is superior...in fact I think the way OMM is taught at my school makes the curriculum inferior.

 

[Law2Doc]

Because for the most part with some exceptions, DO schools aren't the same quality as MD schools. For the most part, I'd attribute this largely to research. While DO schools don't aim to be research powerhouses, their lack of research as a collective whole means less money, less growth, less recognition, etc. Research fuels medicine.

Edit: And not to shout a school out, but look at this DO school. Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Touro-college-harlem.jpg

Agreed. It's also a big reason DOs often aren't as competitive for the more competitive, research focused, specialties.

 

[boggvir]

I wouldn't go to medical school if that school taught **** like cranial.

 

[sylvanthus]

All schools teach some cranial, it is on the COMLEX unfortunately.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

What would happen to medical research if we only produced DO's?

 

[boggvir]

All schools teach some cranial, it is on the COMLEX unfortunately.

Yea. I have no problems with physicians who have a DO degree because virtually all of them are smart enough to ignore crap like cranial - my pcp and my dads oncologist are DOs and they are fantastic and undistinguishable from MDs.

However I do have a problem with the curriculum/schools that teach this unscientific nonsense. I personally wouldn't want to be associated with that.

 

[boggvir]

What would happen to medical research if we only produced DO's?

Nothing. The vast majority is carried out by PhDs via grants from organizations such as the NIH.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Nothing. The vast majority is carried out by PhDs who are associated with biology departments at universities, via grants from organizations such as the NIH.

Then let's get rid of the mstp and let phd's work in the clinic.

 

[Hah]

Simple answer to this.

History. Pride. Reluctance of AOA to be absorbed by AAMC.

 

[boggvir]

Then let's get rid of the mstp and let phd's work in the clinic.

MSTPs are a very small part of the overall research landscape. Though I think they are valuable, it would not be a significant change.

 

[Decicco]

Nothing. The vast majority is carried out by PhDs via grants from organizations such as the NIH.

Not true. PhD's can't do research that requires them to do clinical work. MDs are critical to medical research.

 

[boggvir]

Not true. PhD's can't do research that requires them to do clinical work. MDs are critical to medical research.

That's not what we are talking about. You don't need a phd to run a clinical trial - an md or do can do those things (and they do in the vast majority of cases).

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

MSTPs are a very small part of the overall research landscape. Though I think they are valuable, it would not be a significant change.

They are a small portion of all research activities going on, yes, and maybe even a small portion of all biology research going on. But they are a very integral portion of the MEDICAL RESEARCH sector. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you all day on this hypothetical scenario...

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Well, to do medical research I would assume someone would need medical education.

 

[Kevin Baker]

They're different philosophies with slightly different, totally equivalent, and debatably the same, curriculum.

I personally think OMM helps so much with anatomy and think of it as applied anatomy and as fixed patient encounters. I'd argue it is an essential course as cadavers can only get you so far, it takes a long time to get comfortable with the human body, the amount of anatomical variation in humans is astounding and you need to see a lot of bodies to get a full feel for it. If there are any course deficiencies, I'd argue it comes from filler classes the first two years. We take the same licensing exams and most DOs end up competing with allos for ACGME residencies for the same jobs with the same pay.

DO schools are deficient in research (relative to MD schools) and some of the new ones don't have the best system for rotations. That speaks nothing of quality and just because USNWR adds points for research doesn't mean research helps with being a better physician. As someone who has worked in clinical labs with MD for years and non clinical labs with PhDs for years, my personal opinion is physicians without a PhD are under qualified to do research and we should let the PhDs do their thing, while we focus on the clinical applications and/or applied research, though I am in the minority on this.

As to why have MDs (or DOs) at all, it is about ensuring competition and an adequate supply of docs. The AMA acted as a guild, and frankly, a monopoly, unduly influencing the physician supply and restricting how docs could advertise their services. They didn't like DOs, so the AMA influenced legislation against them (and bought their schools out). But their was still a shortage of docs so Carib schools were set up. Now we have something like 1/3 of all docs as non AMGs which poses its own problems (especially for newer non AMG graduates and AMG students rotating with them).

This has stopped and the AMA is a weak organization, and has been for the past few decades, but having only one licensing organization is risky. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Better to have two licensing organizations imo.