Why go to a top medical school?

[preMedFalcon]

I know that going to a top medical school is the better option if you're looking to go into research, and it helps to have an easier time at matching into competitive residencies. However, if you're not looking to go into research, they why try to go to a top school? What you learn is exactly the same, you will take the exact same exams (USMLE), and you will earn the same degree regardless of your school's name, so what's the point?

Yes, a top school makes it easier to match into competitive residencies, but as long as you're performing exceptionally well, you'll be able to go to any specialty you want regardless of your school's name. And in terms of financial aid, I did my own research, and surprisingly not many of these top schools offer a lot of financial aid. In fact, many of them believe it is the responsibility of the student and their families to fund their medical education (but will still offer some if need be), one example being Stanford.

So unless you're looking to go into research, want a slightly easier way into a competitive residency, or just want to brag and feel special about going to a top school, why go to one?

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[Lucca]

 

[doomer_md]

just want to brag and feel special about going to a top school

I'd be lying if I denied this. There've been a fair amount of doofuses I've met in high school and undergrad that got into my state schools. I also did pretty well on the MCAT and I sort of want to cash in on that. Money can't repair damaged pride.

There I said it. Come at me.

 

[Lucca]

I know that going to a top medical school is the better option if you're looking to go into research, and it helps to have an easier time at matching into competitive residencies. However, if you're not looking to go into research, they why try to go to a top school? What you learn is exactly the same, you will take the exact same exams (USMLE), and you will earn the same degree regardless of your school's name, so what's the point?

Yes, a top school makes it easier to match into competitive residencies, but as long as you're performing exceptionally well, you'll be able to go to any specialty you want regardless of your school's name. And in terms of financial aid, I did my own research, and surprisingly not many of these top schools offer a lot of financial aid. In fact, many of them believe it is the responsibility of the student and their families to fund their medical education (but will still offer some if need be), one example being Stanford.

So unless you're looking to go into research, want a slightly easier way into a competitive residency, or just want to brag and feel special about going to a top school, why go to one?

ok my srs answer

you're totally right. It's not the end all be all of anything, and definitely has a bigger impact on ppl striving for an academic, research, or public facing career which the vast majority of med students dont have any interest in beyond getting good training and then going into private practice.

That said, I think you'd be surprised RE: aid. Yes, there's only a couple of schools that are going debt free (Cornell, Columbia) or tuition free (NYU) -- all top schools. Other schools with very generous aid might also be new schools trying to entice students to come there (Kaiser, U of Houston). Some schools have a lot of half or full tuition scholarships to giveaway even if not for all (WashU, Penn, Hopkins). While Stanford is not debt free or tuition free, I bet you 200$ a fin aid offer here beats at least half of all other med schools.

To address the last point though, it's not just "slightly" easier to get into a competitive residency from a top school. It's *much* easier, IMO, provided the school is doing everything it can to help its students achieve their goals. Just look at the match threads on the MD forum and see for yourself.

But I definitely agree with you that it's not worth to go to a more expensive school for the prestige for 95% of students.

the other big reason is non-clinical careers. Venture capital, biotech, entrepreneurship, etc. Top schools dominate this space because the network facilitates raising capital. but residency + fellowship + additional degrees can open these doors without going to a "top" school for the MD.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

Probably a combination of prestige and networking. People who know people at places like Harvard can open up crazy doors that only those connections open up.

That being said, medicine is such a wide field that it's not only possible but very common to have a strong networking group, good job opportunities, and a well-financial situation graduating and matching from almost any United States medical school.

So my general advice to most people who are not doing some unusual degree pathway is to generally let scholarship money and other factors important to your wellness talk more than anything else and if you have a couple places where cost of attendance is similar, choose your favorite.

I know plenty of people who were slightly bummed for example because they lived at home during medical school going to their state school, but their student loan burden from medical school is less than 100k which is incredible.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[deleted1065184]

To address the last point though, it's not just "slightly" easier to get into a competitive residency from a top school. It's *much* easier, IMO, provided the school is doing everything it can to help its students achieve their goals. Just look at the match threads on the MD forum and see for yourself.

This is a very interesting statement to me, because how can we know this? Schools have historically weighed Step 1 scores very heavily wrt residency, and we know that the people with the highest MCAT scores also have the highest Step 1 scores...without a study that controls for Step scores, how can anybody confidently say how much school name helps with competitive residencies? You can't reasonably come to that conclusion just by looking at match lists/threads.

 

[Lucca]

This is a very interesting statement to me, because how can we know this? Schools have historically weighed Step 1 scores very heavily wrt residency, and we know that the people with the highest MCAT scores also have the highest Step 1 scores...without a study that controls for Step scores, how can anybody confidently say how much school name helps with competitive residencies? You can't reasonably come to that conclusion just by looking at match lists/threads.

we will probably never have a definitive answer to this, so the skepticism is warranted -- BUT from my personal experience, I am *very* convinced that students at top schools *generally* have:
1) fewer consequences for failure, setbacks, etc.
2) more opportunities and $$$ for research, travel to conferences, extra years/degrees
3) easier and broader access to networking, esp in academics
4) more lax clinical grading and schedules (YMMV)
5) much more "wiggle room" in terms of board scores that will still be considered for interview
6) fewer "competitive" hurdles; i.e. more likely to not have AOA, class rankings, etc. so students applying into the same specialty dont have to compete with eachother at least on paper

these are attributes of the school itself rather than merely its brand name, and I think this is a key point as well as we tend to think of the benefit of "prestige" as merely being cachet, but there is often some if not all of these factors underlying that association. And of course the opposite can be true: a school can have these attributes and not be a USNWR darling.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

we will probably never have a definitive answer to this, so the skepticism is warranted -- BUT from my personal experience, I am *very* convinced that students at top schools *generally* have:
1) fewer consequences for failure, setbacks, etc.
2) more opportunities and $$$ for research, travel to conferences, extra years/degrees
3) easier and broader access to networking, esp in academics
4) more lax clinical grading and schedules (YMMV)
5) much more "wiggle room" in terms of board scores that will still be considered for interview
6) fewer "competitive" hurdles; i.e. more likely to not have AOA, class rankings, etc. so students applying into the same specialty dont have to compete with eachother at least on paper

these are attributes of the school itself rather than merely its brand name, and I think this is a key point as well as we tend to think of the benefit of "prestige" as merely being cachet, but there is often some if not all of these factors underlying that association. And of course the opposite can be true: a school can have these attributes and not be a USNWR darling.

Agree with all the above. Just wanted to add that most Dept Chairs have THE pedigree. So if that is in one future goals,( please kill me if I ever had to fill that role), then also something to consider.

 

[deleted314957]

I know that going to a top medical school is the better option if you're looking to go into research, and it helps to have an easier time at matching into competitive residencies. However, if you're not looking to go into research, they why try to go to a top school? What you learn is exactly the same, you will take the exact same exams (USMLE), and you will earn the same degree regardless of your school's name, so what's the point?

Yes, a top school makes it easier to match into competitive residencies, but as long as you're performing exceptionally well, you'll be able to go to any specialty you want regardless of your school's name. And in terms of financial aid, I did my own research, and surprisingly not many of these top schools offer a lot of financial aid. In fact, many of them believe it is the responsibility of the student and their families to fund their medical education (but will still offer some if need be), one example being Stanford.

So unless you're looking to go into research, want a slightly easier way into a competitive residency, or just want to brag and feel special about going to a top school, why go to one?

You are 100% correct.

 

[preMedFalcon]

To address the last point though, it's not just "slightly" easier to get into a competitive residency from a top school. It's *much* easier, IMO, provided the school is doing everything it can to help its students achieve their goals. Just look at the match threads on the MD forum and see for yourself.

I don't know about it being "much" easier. If you research what factors most affect chances of residency matches, the prestige of the medical school is only a small factor. They care much more about your performance in classes and clinical rotations, letters of recommendation, exam scores, etc. Being a graduate of a highly regarded medical school will certainly help, but you still need to do your part in doing very well, and if you fail to do that, you can be a graduate from Harvard, you'll still have a hard time matching at competitive residencies.

Don't go to a top school thinking that you can take it easy and the brand name of your school will come and save the day when it's time to apply to residency.

 

[deleted1025488]

What is the point of these conversations? Try your best and aim for the top—why not?. If you get lucky and somehow get in along with the other 1% of applicants then so be it. But it's not going to make or break your medical career or 'competitive residency' aspirations. Sure it may help, but at the end of the day, a phone call from a friend will move you to the top of any match-list immediately, above anyone else regardless of their school, so maybe try to focus on things you can control such as developing strong relationships, performing well academically, etc. instead of medical school prestige/admissions which is admittedly largely beyond your control at a certain point especially at the lottery top schools.

 

[Morc]

By going to a prestigious med school, it makes it easier to go to a prestigious residency, then getting a prestigious job... etc. All of this helps unlock the endgame of attending a prestigious nursing home with a prestigious burial after we die.

 

[Kardio]

However, if you're not looking to go into research, they why try to go to a top school?

To get a top tier spouse





/s

 

[preMedFalcon]

What is the point of these conversations? Try your best and aim for the top—why not?. If you get lucky and somehow get in along with the other 1% of applicants then so be it.

There's obviously nothing wrong with going to a top school, and if you do get in, then all the better. However, there's a lot of biased information out there saying that going to a top school matters, which is not true. It will only help you greatly if you're planning on going into research and academics.

By going to a prestigious med school, it makes it easier to go to a prestigious residency, then getting a prestigious job... etc.

Yes it does, but not by much. Residencies value your performance in the school along with your letters of rec and exam scores much more than the name of your school. You can look at up and see for yourself. The prestige of the school is low on the list of factors that are important. Again, don't go to a top school thinking that you can take it easy and the brand name of your school will come and save the day when it's time to apply to residency.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You can look at up and see for yourself. The prestige of the school is low on the list of factors that are important.

How accurate is that? People don’t want to admit that they have bias towards to top schools.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

Because premeds (and their parents) are prestige-obsessed elitists dying for bragging rights

 

[deleted1025488]

How accurate is that? People don’t want to admit that they have bias towards to top schools.

Probably not this directly. Top school = more powerful LoR most of the time. I was in an undergrad program at my med school's hospital (hyps) where we got a QandA with a residency director for general surgery with our cohort of 5ish. He was pretty adamant that LoR or a phone call from "a friend" or someone they knew/a powerful "someone" was the absolute most impactful thing you could have on any application by a metric mile, and really emphasized standing out and communicating with doctors you work with during rotations and doing away rotations at programs you want to go to. Apparently, objectively worse candidates would often get moved up due to this over others, admittedly, according to him.

Of course this is just one recruiter at one top program, but I wouldn't be surprised if his "friends" thought the same way.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Because premeds (and their parents) are prestige-obsessed elitists dying for bragging rights

So true 🤣. I am myself aiming for a top school, but it's only because I know it will make it slightly easier to get into a competitive residency, just in case I want that. Of course, I don't care about bragging rights (I'm actually very against bragging - I think it's pathetic to brag), and could care less if I don't go to a top school, as long as it's an American MD school that is reasonably renowned.

How accurate is that? People don’t want to admit that they have bias towards to top schools.

First of all, even if it was true that prestige of the school is very important, this would be very unfair and controversial. Just because you didn't go to a top school doesn't mean you aren't studious or very hard working. Many such people who are highly qualified to attend a top school are still rejected from them. Also, not everyone has a perfect life. Many deal with significant personal and family issues that prevent them from getting and keeping a high GPA and pursuing EC's, but as long as they are able to maintain a reasonably high GPA (3.5+) and get reasonable EC's under their belt (and along with everything else), there will be a good MD school waiting for them, it just won't be a "top" one.

Also, everyone who emphasizes going to a top school means everything, more often than not, they are graduates of top schools themselves. In other words, they're just being biased.

 

[Lucca]

Probably not this directly. Top school = more powerful LoR most of the time. I was in an undergrad program at my med school's hospital (hyps) where we got a QandA with a residency director for general surgery with our cohort of 5ish. He was pretty adamant that LoR or a phone call from "a friend" or someone they knew/a powerful "someone" was the absolute most impactful thing you could have on any application by a metric mile, and really emphasized standing out and communicating with doctors you work with during rotations and doing away rotations at programs you want to go to. Apparently, objectively worse candidates would often get moved up due to this over others, admittedly, according to him.

Of course this is just one recruiter at one top program, but I wouldn't be surprised if his "friends" thought the same way.

This is consistent with what I've observed and heard as well.

It sounds really sinister and unfair when you read it like this. Powerful people making "backroom" calls as favors for their chosen mentees.... but that is a misleading picture of how these things happen and why they matter. It is almost certainly unfair, but you have to understand that program directors have essentially zero meaningful information with which to select residents. Prior and up to becoming P/F, Step 1 has been the most important factor for selecting candidates for interview for residency PDs for the vast majority of specialties in spite of every single person in medicine who wasn't completely SDN/reddit-pilled knowing a priori that Step 1 isn't a very useful tool for picking residents. That's all the evidence you need to know people are bending over backwards to attempt to differentiate a very large group of people who appear almost perfect and identical on paper. A vote of confidence from someone you know and trust in this context can be a valuable thing.

But you don't need to go to a top school that have mentors like this go to bat for you, or to have "heavyweight" mentors and sponsors. There just happens to be a higher concentration of these people, who also happened to train at all the places you are aspiring to train at, at top schools.

It is annoying how frequently this topic is up for discussion online, but people don't really talk about it IRL -- understandably because the topic is so obnoxious and tedious to think about as it is not something people exactly have a ton of control over 99% of the time, everyone is mostly just doing the best with what the fates give them in the academic lottery. BUT I don't think the opposite mindset -- it doesnt matter at all where you go to school, just kill boards and wards, get AOA etc -- is a particularly healthy mindset for premeds to enter med school with, either.

Almost every premed reading this who ends up getting into med school will likely have the experience of going from a top 1-5% student at their UG to being middling or worse. Hey, someone has to be in the bottom half of the med school class and guess what: it's half of y'all who are getting accepted. If you go in with the mindset of "boards and clinical grades are the only thing that matters" and then fail to meet your expectations for yourself you are not entirely *wrong* but you are going to have a bad, frustrating time, and might neglect other aspects of your time in medical school that can be worthwhile personally and good for your career.

 

[456432]

Almost every premed reading this who ends up getting into med school will likely have the experience of going from a top 1-5% student at their UG to being middling or worse. Hey, someone has to be in the bottom half of the med school class and guess what: it's half of y'all who are getting accepted.

This part really worries me. I struggled so much in undergrad and spent most of my time studying since learning in general is tough for me, and I barely made it through. Now that I’m starting at a low-tier med school in a few weeks, I have no idea how I’ll be competitive enough to match into my dream specialty, which is quite competitive. I’m surrounded by people who are way more intelligent and have much better connections than I. 😭 Might be the imposter syndrome speaking though haha

 

[deleted1065184]

This is consistent with what I've observed and heard as well.

It sounds really sinister and unfair when you read it like this. Powerful people making "backroom" calls as favors for their chosen mentees.... but that is a misleading picture of how these things happen and why they matter. It is almost certainly unfair, but you have to understand that program directors have essentially zero meaningful information with which to select residents. Prior and up to becoming P/F, Step 1 has been the most important factor for selecting candidates for interview for residency PDs for the vast majority of specialties in spite of every single person in medicine who wasn't completely SDN/reddit-pilled knowing a priori that Step 1 isn't a very useful tool for picking residents. That's all the evidence you need to know people are bending over backwards to attempt to differentiate a very large group of people who appear almost perfect and identical on paper. A vote of confidence from someone you know and trust in this context can be a valuable thing.

But you don't need to go to a top school that have mentors like this go to bat for you, or to have "heavyweight" mentors and sponsors. There just happens to be a higher concentration of these people, who also happened to train at all the places you are aspiring to train at, at top schools.

It is annoying how frequently this topic is up for discussion online, but people don't really talk about it IRL -- understandably because the topic is so obnoxious and tedious to think about as it is not something people exactly have a ton of control over 99% of the time, everyone is mostly just doing the best with what the fates give them in the academic lottery. BUT I don't think the opposite mindset -- it doesnt matter at all where you go to school, just kill boards and wards, get AOA etc -- is a particularly healthy mindset for premeds to enter med school with, either.

Almost every premed reading this who ends up getting into med school will likely have the experience of going from a top 1-5% student at their UG to being middling or worse. Hey, someone has to be in the bottom half of the med school class and guess what: it's half of y'all who are getting accepted. If you go in with the mindset of "boards and clinical grades are the only thing that matters" and then fail to meet your expectations for yourself you are not entirely *wrong* but you are going to have a bad, frustrating time, and might neglect other aspects of your time in medical school that can be worthwhile personally and good for your career.

This is really interesting and with this perspective, I can definitely see why having connections in the "in group" can be helpful in certain circumstances.

Do you think this matters as much outside of the group of schools whose residency programs are generally considered "elite"?

We all know that these schools love selecting and exchanging trainees and faculty from/with one another. I've witnessed this first hand and have seen it indirectly. But how much does this matter outside of those schools?

Like if a person at a smaller name school wants to match into a ROAD specialty (or whatever will be the most competitive specialties when they apply) but doesn't care to be at a major hospital or in a super desirable city, how much do things like school name or letters/calls from people with connections to big name schools matter?

When I look at the lists of residents at these programs (and even some of the more competitive programs, ironically), the only two notable factors that seem to emerge are 1) whether the student attended the medical school attached to the residency and 2) whether the student is from/attended school in a geographical area near the residency program.

 

[deleted936268]

First of all, even if it was true that prestige of the school is very important, this would be very unfair and controversial. Just because you didn't go to a top school doesn't mean you aren't studious or very hard working.

Lol welcome to the real world, where things are unfair and not everyone gets the Narnia cakewalk. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.

 

[Redpancreas]

Wrote this a few years ago. It still applies. Insight into Pre-Medical Decisions from a Resident (factors in choosing a school, life outlook, etc)

 

[Lucca]

This is really interesting and with this perspective, I can definitely see why having connections in the "in group" can be helpful in certain circumstances.

Do you think this matters as much outside of the group of schools whose residency programs are generally considered "elite"?

We all know that these schools love selecting and exchanging trainees and faculty from/with one another. I've witnessed this first hand and have seen it indirectly. But how much does this matter outside of those schools?

Like if a person at a smaller name school wants to match into a ROAD specialty (or whatever will be the most competitive specialties when they apply) but doesn't care to be at a major hospital or in a super desirable city, how much do things like school name or letters/calls from people with connections to big name schools matter?

When I look at the lists of residents at these programs (and even some of the more competitive programs, ironically), the only two notable factors that seem to emerge are 1) whether the student attended the medical school attached to the residency and 2) whether the student is from/attended school in a geographical area near the residency program.

I think @Redpancreas ‘ post above does a perfect job of summarizing. Like I said earlier, it’s not the most important thing or even relevant for most. If I had to summarize it in one sentence: you can match any specialty from anywhere (caveat: USMD only, can do as a DO but you are seriously fighting a tough battle for certain fields like ENT compared to others like Ortho that historically have had more DOs); but if you want to match at the top place for X specialty, regardless of the specialty, know that you are walking into an academic rat race dominated by the top 10-20 medical schools.

In his post, pancreas talks about the incline from med school to fellowship. I think a good example of this is oncology. Heme/Onc is a fellowship that follows IM. It’s a popular choice among residents seeking fellowship, but not the most competitive out of IM (that would be cards and GI). The top 3 Onc *academic* fellowships are indisputably Dana Farber, MSKCC, and MD Anderson.

Dana Farber doesn’t make it easy to find their list of fellows publicly, but I can tell you from M4 friends matching at Brigham interested in Onc that 14/15 of the Farber heme/Onc fellows he met came from either Brigham or MGH.

At MSKCC all the fellows come from either a top 4 IM residency, or New York Presby (the home residency for Cornell) with few exceptions, and those exceptions being other top IM residencies.

At MDA u see the most “diversity” in terms of the IM residencies but still an over representation of the top 20 or so.

What I’m trying to illustrate is that as you say this bias is institution specific but the residency you go to will have an impact for fellowship and so on, etc. And the steepness of the impact can be, well, quite steep where if you want to train at DFCI well you best match BWH/MGH lmao, and med school will have an impact on that. But no one *needs* to train at DFCI to be a good oncologist, or even a good academic/researcher. So there’s no reason to despair either.

That’s IM where there’s a lot of fellowship spots available for folks. Fellowships that are much much smaller like Peds surgery, or facial plastics, or the like, you are jumping into an academic cauldron, everything in your favor counts.

 

[Lucca]

This part really worries me. I struggled so much in undergrad and spent most of my time studying since learning in general is tough for me, and I barely made it through. Now that I’m starting at a low-tier med school in a few weeks, I have no idea how I’ll be competitive enough to match into my dream specialty, which is quite competitive. I’m surrounded by people who are way more intelligent and have much better connections than I. 😭 Might be the imposter syndrome speaking though haha

It’s reasonable to have this concern. But medical school is very different from undergrad. The way you learn and what is expected from you is very hard to compare. Med school is really not about intelligence, but hard work, taking constructive feedback, and people skills / personality management. The toughest hurdles for people who struggled will be shelf exams and boards. But there are so many resources to help you succeed for those that have nothing to do with what school you go to. All I’m saying is that regardless of anyone’s best efforts they might end up average academically or below, because EVERYONE in med school is an excellent student, and being psychologically prepared for that will make the transition easier. Some of you will end up at the top, too. Ideally, go to a school where it doesn’t matter.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Lol welcome to the real world, where things are unfair and not everyone gets the Narnia cakewalk. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.

Of course little things in the world are fair, but at least some things are, such as the fact that prestige of med school matters little when applying to residency. That I don't know why is so hard to believe when residency programs say so themselves. Just like I said, just because someone didn't go to a top school doesn't mean they aren't studious or very hard working. Many such people who are highly qualified to attend a top school are still rejected from them. Good thing residency programs are not biased and realize that.

I have no idea how I’ll be competitive enough to match into my dream specialty, which is quite competitive.

Prestige/ranking of the med school is low on the list of important factors when applying for residency. It will be harder, but still possible. Don't become victim to biased information (which most of the internet, including forums like sdn provide). Look for advice from reliable sources. Besides, it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

 

[deleted936268]

such as the fact that prestige of med school matters little when applying to residency. That I don't know why is so hard to believe when residency programs say so themselves. Just like I said, just because someone didn't go to a top school doesn't mean they aren't studious or very hard working. Many such people who are highly qualified to attend a top school are still rejected from them. Good thing residency programs are not biased and realize that.

Prestige/ranking of the med school is low on the list of important factors when applying for residency. It will be harder, but still possible. Besides, it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

You are the only one in this entire thread and the entire history probably of med school talk that thinks the prestige of your med school matters little when matching. You can think about it logically (ie. Step 1 is p/f, the obvious opportunity to make connections, better LoRs, better opportunities) or you can trust all the content everyone in this thread is spewing at you.

But it is just heedless to say for the sake of your own opinion that it doesn't matter. If you'd like to say that to make yourself feel better, go on ahead nobody is stopping you. But to say so out loud and convince others probably won't work here.

 

[preMedFalcon]

You are the only one in this entire thread and the entire history probably of med school talk that thinks the prestige of your med school matters little when matching. You can think about it logically (ie. Step 1 is p/f, the obvious opportunity to make connections, better LoRs, better opportunities) or you can trust all the content everyone in this thread is spewing at you.

But it is just heedless to say for the sake of your own opinion that it doesn't matter. If you'd like to say that to make yourself feel better, go on ahead nobody is stopping you. But to say so out loud and convince others probably won't work here.

Okay, so I guess the residency programs are lying when they say that prestige of med school matters little, or everyone on this forum is also being biased towards top schools, like the rest of the internet -- guess I should've expected that, my mistake. Well my apologies, but I look at the facts of reality, not biased information from biased people.

And I don't know where the "make yourself feel better" comes from. I still have every chance of going to a top med school and am aiming for that. I was just wondering, unless you want to be a researcher, why to really go to one. I find there is absolutely nothing wrong with not going to a top school, unless you want to be a researcher or feel special about yourself, and I want neither.

And like I said, it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

But hey, if you want to rely on biased information instead of listening to the advice of those who will eventually be deciding if you should be accepted or not, be my guest.

 

[deleted936268]

Okay, so I guess the residency programs are lying when they say that prestige of med school matters little, or everyone on this forum is also being biased towards top schools, like the rest of the internet -- guess I should've expected that, my mistake. Well my apologies, but I look at the facts of reality, not biased information from biased people.

And I don't know where the "make yourself feel better" comes from. I still have every chance of going to a top med school and am aiming for that. I was just wondering, unless you want to be a researcher, why to really go to one. I find there is absolutely nothing wrong with not going to a top school, unless you want to be a researcher or feel special about yourself, and I want neither.

And like I said, it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

But hey, if you want to rely on biased information instead of listening to the advice of those who will eventually be deciding if you should be accepted or not, be my guest.

Again, no. Not because you think you are right the 20+ people that have responded are bias. For someone wanting a future career in science, that is not very logical.

Now, do you really expect residency programs to come and flat out say that they much prefer Harvard kids over someone from a random med school in Alabama? Of course, they won't - because that's not something most applicants can control for. You just apply high and attend the best med school you can get into.

Now to answer your question similarly to everyone else above: Attending a high tier MD school is helpful for the doors it opens, the network you makes, if you want to go into research/academia, VC, medical technology, health policy, etc. If you want to just practice, go private practice, make money and stay low, it really doesn't matter, just go to a med school with a good match list for the specialty you desire.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Now to answer your question similarly to everyone else above: Attending a high tier MD school is helpful for the doors it opens, the network you makes, if you want to go into research/academia, VC, medical technology, health policy, etc. If you want to just practice, go private practice, make money and stay low, it really doesn't matter, just go to a med school with a good match list for the specialty you desire.

Congrats, now you are looking at the reality. And even if you wanted "to go into research/academia, VC, medical technology, health policy, etc," it's 100% correct to say going to a top school helps significantly, but very wrong to not emphasize that going to a top school is NOT a requirement.

Now, do you really expect residency programs to come and flat out say that they much prefer Harvard kids over someone from a random med school in Alabama? Of course, they won't - because that's not something most applicants can control for. You just apply high and attend the best med school you can get into.

No I don't expect that, but that reality is they prefer graduates from American MD schools, not specifically from the most prestigious ones. So what happens if you are rejected from top schools but still get accepted into a good one, just not "the best"? Your dreams of becoming a surgeon are over? Anyone who answers yes to that clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. What if a lower tier school offers me a full scholarship but the better one doesn't. Should I still go to the better one because the biased information says I should? Many students are not able to go to top schools for various reasons.

And it seems that you're ignoring the fact that it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

 

[deleted936268]

Congrats, now you are looking at the reality. And even if you wanted "to go into research/academia, VC, medical technology, health policy, etc," it's 100% correct to say going to a top school helps significantly, but very wrong to not emphasize that going to a top school is NOT a requirement.

No I don't expect that, but that reality is they prefer graduates from American MD schools, not specifically from the most prestigious ones. So what happens if you are rejected from top schools but still get accepted into a good one, just not "the best"? Your dreams of becoming a surgeon are over? Anyone who answers yes to that clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. What if a lower tier school offers me a full scholarship but the better one doesn't. Should I still go to the better one because the biased information says I should?

And it seems that you're ignoring the fact that it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

I think you seem to be mixing up 2 points here.

The first is the use of going to a prestigious MD school over other US MD schools in matching to a top residency, which I already explained will favor the prestigious MD student. The second is based on the use of going to a top tier MD school to go into research/academia, VC, medical technology, health policy, etc. Again, nobody disagrees that someone can't do it from a smaller MD school. Like you said just now, it just helps an insane amount to be at the top tier MD school for those opportunities.

And again, nobody is saying you need to go to a top tier MD just to practice. If you want an easier time getting a competitive surgical specialty, go to a top tier MD. You'll be grinding for that specialty from a lower tier one, and that's your choice if you want it.

To answer your last point, "it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort" - how do you think students get into those top tier MD schools? By working less? Lol this isn't college admissions where you can Rick Singer your way into a top med school. I'd gamble a large majority of the students at these med schools worked hard for their spot - save for a couple that had an easier time with connections and better resources.

Going to a top tier MD does not automatically mean hard work just stops. On the contrary, it means that while someone at a low-to-mid MD is grinding away just to get into their specialty of choice, you for the same amount of grind will probably achieve more because more doors are already open to you. Those resources mean that you're probably a couple steps ahead as a result of your environment than someone working just as hard at a lower tier MD.

Like I said, if all you care about is getting into a surgical specialty, it is probably best to attend an MD school with a good match list. But don't mix the other points I said above, those are completely different and not meant to be coiled.

 

[deleted1025488]

And like I said, it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort to earn success rather than needing to graduate from a top school to get ahead.

If you work hard in undergrad you'll end up at a top medical school, lol. And by top I would mean a top 20 or top state program which is completely feasible if you put in the work. If you're of the mentality of Harvard/Penn or bust you're probably fighting a losing battle—no guarantees there.

 

[preMedFalcon]

To answer your last point, "it's a much more useful skill in life to rely on your own hard work and effort" - how do you think students get into those top tier MD schools? By working less? Lol this isn't college admissions where you can Rick Singer your way into a top med school. I'd gamble a large majority of the students at these med schools worked hard for their spot - save for a couple that had an easier time with connections and better resources.

Obviously, but the point is that many students are not able to attend top schools, and it doesn't necessarily mean they are not hard working. Many can't afford it. Many had to deal with significant personal and family issues which made it extremely difficult for them to be competitive applicants for such schools. Not everyone has a near perfect life to go to a top school (and if you do, then congrats, your doors in life are automatically opened). Nevertheless, it's a lot more useful skill if you don't need to go to a top school AT ALL and still become very successful.

End point, I have nothing against top schools. I am aiming to go to one myself. I'm just shocked and surprised on how much biased information there is out there that overemphasizes the importance of your school's name. Yes it matters .... for certain careers. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter. The best advice are from those who will eventually be deciding if you should be accepted or not.

 

[deleted1025488]

Many can't afford it.

Top schools give the best aid, including merit aid, out of any school. Some top schools are also literally tuition-free. If anything they'd always be cheaper.

Many had to deal with significant personal and family issues which made it extremely difficult for them to be competitive applicants for such schools. Not everyone has a near perfect life to go to a top school (and if you do, then congrats, your doors in life are automatically opened).

This cohort is probably the far minority. In any case, people who had actual life events during undergrad or something are not looked upon negatively and those who overcame hardship are looked upon favorably. Many people at these schools do not have "a perfect life."

Sounds like you're just trying to make excuses and cope for a future event, top school denial, which hasn't even happened yet. In any case, it's been pretty clear from literally everyone on this thread that there are many positives—which won't make or break your career—at top programs that will obviously put you a foot forward. But that's it. As long as you go to a decent school it's pretty much all in your own hands.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Sounds like you're just trying to make excuses and cope for a future event, top school denial, which hasn't even happened yet. In any case, it's been pretty clear from literally everyone on this thread that there are many positives—which won't make or break your career—at top programs that will obviously put you a foot forward. But that's it. As long as you go to a decent school it's pretty much all in your own hands.

No, not making excuses in case of top school denial. I was trying to emphasize that the information that the school's prestige matters greatly is biased and wrong. It matters depending on what you want to do with your life (and for the vast majority of careers, it doesn't matter). But clearly everyone is set on believing the biased info, so that's okay with me.

Top schools give the best aid, including merit aid, out of any school. Some top schools are also literally tuition-free. If anything they'd always be cheaper.

Many top schools have a policy that it's the responsibility of the student and their families to fund their medical education. Unless they specifically offer half or free tuition, they probably won't offer enough to not need a hefty loan anymore. Why do you think the loan debt of graduating medical students is so high?

This cohort is probably the far minority. In any case, people who had actual life events during undergrad or something are not looked upon negatively and those who overcame hardship are looked upon favorably. Many people at these schools do not have "a perfect life."

There are some uncontrollable life events that are simply not possible to overcome. I learned that the hard way (but I got lucky and it resolved itself). Students who enter top med schools right out of undergrad (not needing a post bac or gap years), they very likely had a perfect life. The same applies for those who go to top colleges after high school.

Do I want to go to a top school? Yes. Will I be very disappointed or care at all if I'm not accepted? Definitely not. Again, I look at the facts, not biased information, but if you want to keep agreeing with the biased information and think that I just want to make myself feel better just in case I'm not accepted to a top school (which sounds absolutely ridiculous, but whatever), then that's perfectly okay.

 

[deleted936268]

No, not making excuses in case of top school denial. I was trying to emphasize that the information that the school's prestige matters greatly is biased and wrong. It matters depending on what you want to do with your life (and for the vast majority of careers, it doesn't matter). But clearly everyone is set on believing the biased info, so that's okay with me.

Many top schools have a policy that it's the responsibility of the student and their families to fund their medical education. Unless they specifically offer half or free tuition, they probably won't offer enough to not need a hefty loan anymore. Why do you think the loan debt of graduating medical students is so high?

There are some uncontrollable life events that are simply not possible to overcome. I learned that the hard way (but I got lucky and it resolved itself). Students who enter top med schools right out of undergrad (not needing a post bac or gap years), they very likely had a perfect life. The same applies for those who go to top colleges after high school.

Do I want to go to a top school? Yes. Will I be very disappointed or care at all if I'm not accepted? Definitely not. Again, I look at the facts, not biased information, but if you want to keep agreeing with the biased information and think that I just want to make myself feel better just in case I'm not accepted to a top school (which sounds absolutely ridiculous, but whatever), then that's perfectly okay.

I don’t think anybody wants to argue with you anymore but half the stuff you’re saying is just straight wrong. Those top schools give the best aid - and a good chunk of their students are disadvantaged. Go look at stats and then come back. It’s making me cringe to see you keep refuting multiple, differently sourced responses by saying it’s biased.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

Going a top school means you have more leeway when applying for residency. If you want to go to MGH for IM from a low tier school, you probably need to be AOA. If you graduate from HMS, probably not. However, don't think that this gives you a free pass into your specialty of choice. Every year, students from the most elite schools go unmatched. There's no substitute for hardwork.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Oh by the way, completely forgot to mention that at my school, the University of Pennsylvania med school (a top school) gave a presentation and their director of admissions admitted that although prestige is helpful, it's better to go to a school that is right for you. Also, at the medical school headquarters, they say "go to a school because it's the right fit for you, not because you want their name on your diploma." In other words, if you don't want to attend any of the top schools for whatever reason, then don't go. But if you do go, please be sure it's because you feel it's a right fit, not because it's a top school.

 

[preMedFalcon]

However, don't think that this gives you a free pass into your specialty of choice. Every year, students from the most elite schools go unmatched. There's no substitute for hardwork.

This is absolutely correct. Going to a top tier school will definitely make it easier for you to match into a competitive residency, but you still have to do your part and do well. Don't think that because you're at a top tier school that your school's name will make up for average or even below average performance. I'm sure residency programs will happily prefer a high performing student from a state MD school over a lower performing student at HMS. If both applicants were equivalent in everything (almost impossible), THEN they'll choose based on their school's prestige.

Don't overemphasize the importance of med school prestige in residency matching. Yes it definitely helps, but not to the extent that has been excessively argued here. You guys make it seem like it's in the top 5 list of most important factors, when really it's more like #3 in the top 10 list.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

This is absolutely correct. Going to a top tier school will definitely make it easier for you to match into a competitive residency, but you still have to do your part and do well. Don't think that because you're at a top tier school that your school's name will make up for average or even below average performance. I'm sure residency programs will happily prefer a high performing student from a state MD school over a lower performing student at HMS. If both applicants were equivalent in everything (almost impossible), THEN they'll choose based on their school's prestige.

Don't overemphasize the importance of med school prestige in residency matching. Yes it definitely helps, but not to the extent that has been excessively argued here. You guys make it seem like it's in the top 5 list of most important factors, when really it's more like #3 in the top 10 list.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. At the tippy top of academic programs, everyone has a 250+ step 1, AOA, and multiple pubs, so school prestige is important as its one of the few differentiating factors.

For the record, I think the greatest value in going to a top school are the connections. In the small competitive specialties, everyone knows each other. Take for example the Ortho program at HSS (ranked #1). All the PGY1's come from top schools, except for one resident from Rush and one from Jefferson. Although Rush and Jefferson are considered mid-tier schools, their ortho departments are top tier. I bet these students built connections and did research with well-known faculty in these departments which helped them match HSS. This is a unique situation though. Typically, the top ranked schools have the top ranked departments, so going to top schools will allow you to establish those valuable connections come residency time.

 

[preMedFalcon]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. At the tippy top of academic programs, everyone has a 250+ step 1, AOA, and multiple pubs, so school prestige is important as its one of the few differentiating factors.

For the record, I think the greatest value in going to a top school are the connections. In the small competitive specialties, everyone knows each other. Take for example the Ortho program at HSS (ranked #1). All the PGY1's come from top schools, except for one resident from Rush and one from Jefferson. Although Rush and Jefferson are considered mid-tier schools, their ortho departments are top tier. I bet these students built connections and did research with well-known faculty in these departments which helped them match HSS. This is a unique situation though. Typically, the top ranked schools have the top ranked departments, so going to top schools will allow you to establish those valuable connections come residency time.

Interesting how you completely ignored my other post.

 

[deleted936268]

Interesting how you completely ignored my other post.

Again like before, 2 different things.

The other post was about going to a school that you fit well at - of course this is a good idea. This, however, is unrelated to how much prestige matters for matching well. Two totally different ideas that have totally nothing to do with each other.

 

[preMedFalcon]

The other post was about going to a school that you fit well at - of course this is a good idea. This, however, is unrelated to how much prestige matters for matching well. Two totally different ideas that have totally nothing to do with each other.

So in other words, if none of the top schools are a right fit for me, I should not go to them, but forget about going to a top ranked residency program. Is that correct?

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

So in other words, if none of the top schools are a right fit for me, I should not go to them, but forget about going to a top ranked residency program. Is that correct?

If you get into a top school, you should attend unless there’s a significant personal or financial barrier. “Fit” is overrated imo. Don’t pass up the opportunity to make your pathway through medicine easier just because you didn’t vibe with your classmates during second look.

 

[preMedFalcon]

If you get into a top school, you should attend unless there’s a significant personal or financial barrier. “Fit” is overrated imo. Don’t pass up the opportunity to make your pathway through medicine easier just because you didn’t vibe with your classmates during second look.

Really? You're literally the first person I've heard so far to advise to prioritize prestige of the school over if it's the right fit for you. I actually cannot believe you said that to be honest. What terrible advice. Even the director of admissions at NYU SOM (another top school that presented at my school) would say this is terrible advice.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

Really? You're literally the first person I've heard so far to advise to prioritize prestige of the school over if it's the right fit for you. I actually cannot believe you said that to be honest. What terrible advice. Even the director of admissions at NYU SOM (another top school that presented at my school) would say this is terrible advice.

Let me clarify. I think applicants are poor judges of fit. It’s hard to tell if a school is a great fit based on a 5 hour interview day. I think you can find friends and support at any school, but going to a more prestigious school will make your medical career easier. Just my opinion though

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Exit opportunities. I’ve heard of some HMS and YSOM grads getting offers at McKinsey, Bain, Boston if they don’t want to practice. MM PE is not out of the question either if they’re a healthcare oriented shop.
Furthermore, I believe that just like how the medical school interview trail is full of Ivy League undergrads, residency interviews are likely full of T20 students (especially in Derm, plastics, ortho etc.)

finally, it will matter if you want to enter academia and or hospital administration.

 

[preMedFalcon]

You know, I don't know why I thought people on here would be more realistic on this topic. I should've expected people to be biased here too. The overemphasis on school prestige with residency matches is seriously a problem and I hope anyone who reads this thread (or any other forum discussing the same topic) in the future does their own research from reliable sources, like I do.

At first when everyone started mentioning that prestige of the school is super important, I thought I would just correct them, but clearly everyone is determined and set on believing the biased information in favor of the top schools, even though there are no reliable sources online to confirm or back this up, and the top schools themselves strongly advise students to prioritize good fight over prestige (and keep in mind, ranking systems are also biased and many top schools admit they hate them), and the residency programs themselves say you're wrong and that although school prestige is considered, it is definitely not as important or more important than the student's overall performance.

But regardless, anyone who is determined to believe and protect biased information, they will eventually come face to face with reality the hard way. If you want to continue arguing for how important school prestige is, unless you can provide links to multiple reliable sources to back it up, please don't bother.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You know, I don't know why I thought people on here would be more realistic on this topic. I should've expected people to be biased here too. The overemphasis on school prestige with residency matches is seriously a problem and I hope anyone who reads this thread (or any other forum discussing the same topic) in the future does their own research from reliable sources, like I do.

At first when everyone started mentioning that prestige of the school is super important, I thought I would just correct them, but clearly everyone is determined and set on believing the biased information in favor of the top schools, even though there are no reliable sources online to confirm or back this up, and the top schools themselves strongly advise students to prioritize good fight over prestige (and keep in mind, ranking systems are also biased and many top schools admit they hate them), and the residency programs themselves say you're wrong and that although school prestige is considered, it is definitely not as important or more important than the student's overall performance.

But regardless, anyone who is determined to believe and protect biased information, they will eventually come face to face with reality the hard way. If you want to continue arguing for how important school prestige is, unless you can provide links to multiple reliable sources to back it up, please don't bother.

Vanitas, vanitatum, omnia vanitas.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

You know, I don't know why I thought people on here would be more realistic on this topic. I should've expected people to be biased here too. The overemphasis on school prestige with residency matches is seriously a problem and I hope anyone who reads this thread (or any other forum discussing the same topic) in the future does their own research from reliable sources, like I do.

At first when everyone started mentioning that prestige of the school is super important, I thought I would just correct them, but clearly everyone is determined and set on believing the biased information in favor of the top schools, even though there are no reliable sources online to confirm or back this up, and the top schools themselves strongly advise students to prioritize good fight over prestige (and keep in mind, ranking systems are also biased and many top schools admit they hate them), and the residency programs themselves say you're wrong and that although school prestige is considered, it is definitely not as important or more important than the student's overall performance.

But regardless, anyone who is determined to believe and protect biased information, they will eventually come face to face with reality the hard way. If you want to continue arguing for how important school prestige is, unless you can provide links to multiple reliable sources to back it up, please don't bother.

To each their own. If you don’t think going to a top school matters much, you don’t have to to go to one. Best of luck buddy