Why is a systems-based curriculum "better?"

[DocKoozmin]

Don't know if this is the right place to post, but I'm an admitted pre-med trying to narrow down which school I will attend. A lot of schools/applicants tout a systems-based curriculum as being the hot new thing. However, in my head it doesn't make sense. If you just learn one system then move on, isn't it more likely you'd forget the material rather than learning the anatomy one semester, the physiology the next, the patho after that etc? It seems like the 'traditional' way has more room for review. Maybe I have this wrong, but I'd really like to hear from your experiences about what type of curriculum you think is better. Thanks.

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[slowthai]

You can make the same argument for the traditional one. You'd forget the anatomy, phys, micro, etc.

Honestly, I don't think it matters at the end of the day. You have to find a way to learn and remember all this info to pass step 1 regardless of the curriculum.

I look at it like this. It's my responsibility to learn, not for the school to "teach me". The wealth of information available via third party resources allows me to take full control of my education. If you go in with this attitude/approach, you won't be frustrated like some (a lot) of your classmates about the piss poor quality of lecturers (and their slides).

If it was me, I would prioritize the school that has the least amount of PBL* and variants thereof, the most free time/least mandatory crap, and the most flexibility during third/fourth year. I would want a school that gets in the way as little as possible.

*PBL = Pathetic Backwards Learning

 

[kopftonmd]

Chuckling at the PBL definition there. But definitely agree that the third party resources really do make it so that the school just needs to administer the exams, organize the clerkships and get out of the way.

 

[NonTrad16]

Some things like micro, pharm, biochem don’t make as much sense to me longitudinally. That said, learning the cardiac anatomy, physiology, pathology, histology etc all at once made more sense to me because they all relate more to each other than anything else. Also, I couldn’t imagine 3 months of anatomy... never would have made it through that.

 

[slowthai]

Chuckling at the PBL definition there. But definitely agree that the third party resources really do make it so that the school just needs to administer the exams, organize the clerkships and get out of the way.

Exactly, I pay them for clerkships and a degree, not to waste my time with low yield garbage. This includes, but is not limited to: PhD research, tangential babbling about nothing, wellness lectures, and busywork reflection essays.

 

[slowthai]

Some things like micro, pharm, biochem don’t make as much sense to me longitudinally. That said, learning the cardiac anatomy, physiology, pathology, histology etc all at once made more sense to me because they all relate more to each other than anything else. Also, I couldn’t imagine 3 months of anatomy... never would have made it through that.

Yeah, I guess the "advantage" of the systems setup is that it's more or less all in context

 

[aldol16]

I mean, after your two preclinical years (or fewer, depending on school), you'll almost never have more formal teaching in that format ever again. Are you going to forget? Yeah sure, as you practice medicine it kind of all fits together but if you learn something well, you're not going to forget it especially since systems tend to interact with each other. For instance, the cardiovascular system is intimately connected with the pulmonary system and the renal system. You can't understand one without understanding the others. So you still "revisit" similar concepts. The Starling curve will come up again in renal as you talk about RAAS and why that improve cardiac output up to a certain point.

 

[deleted688779]

If it was me, I would prioritize the school that has the least amount of PBL* and variants thereof, the most free time/least mandatory crap

Do you see this priority changing or becoming less important for incoming M1s who likely will have P/F Step 1? Or would there still be substantial beauty and benefit in less mandatory crap?

the most flexibility during third/fourth year. I would want a school that gets in the way as little as possible.

*PBL = Pathetic Backwards Learning

When choosing a school, would one look for to identify the most flexibility during M3/4 years?

and lmao

 

[Fat_Albert]

You can make the same argument for the traditional one. You'd forget the anatomy, phys, micro, etc.

Honestly, I don't think it matters at the end of the day. You have to find a way to learn and remember all this info to pass step 1 regardless of the curriculum.

I look at it like this. It's my responsibility to learn, not for the school to "teach me". The wealth of information available via third party resources allows me to take full control of my education. If you go in with this attitude/approach, you won't be frustrated like some (a lot) of your classmates about the piss poor quality of lecturers (and their slides).

If it was me, I would prioritize the school that has the least amount of PBL* and variants thereof, the most free time/least mandatory crap, and the most flexibility during third/fourth year. I would want a school that gets in the way as little as possible.

*PBL = Pathetic Backwards Learning

As someone who goes to a pbl school...I approve

 

[deleted889094]

Depends on your learning style. I go to a school with a traditional curriculum and I really like it. I would hate to have done a systems-based curriculum because this fits how I learn so much better.

 

[stickgirl390]

Exactly, I pay them for clerkships and a degree, not to waste my time with low yield garbage. This includes, but is not limited to: PhD research, tangential babbling about nothing, wellness lectures, and busywork reflection essays.

You MUST go to my school, this post hits too close to home

 

[stickgirl390]

My school does systems based, and I couldn’t imagine learning medicine any other way. For example, I was able to study heart physiology while in anatomy lab, and everything just clicked together more. I also tutored a summer course that did all of anatomy in 9 weeks, so I was exposed to the non-systems based approach as well. Those students were much more stressed and scored lower on anatomy exams than my peers who did the systems based approach.

 

[slowthai]

Do you see this priority changing or becoming less important for incoming M1s who likely will have P/F Step 1? Or would there still be substantial beauty and benefit in less mandatory crap?


When choosing a school, would one look for to identify the most flexibility during M3/4 years?

and lmao

Personally, I would still prioritize the same things. Time is in short supply as a med student. Step 2 will somehow matter even more than step 1 does now, and the better I learn and retain step 1 material, the better I'll do on step 2. Honestly, there's nothing to be gained from sitting through the nonsense that they make mandatory. They're doing it because the LCME requires it.
Also, I would use the remaining time for research, or other value-add stuff, like working out, hanging out with friends, etc.

For third/fourth year, I would look for the most amount of elective time and the least amount of required fourth year rotations. You'll see a difference between schools if you check their posted curricula.

 

[deleted1005514]

I like that the systems based curriculum and most board review resources sync up pretty nicely...it makes looking up videos in BnB or Osmosis much easier than in a traditional curriculum, IMO.

Plus, you actually do get a lot of review of concepts that work the same for several systems. For example, you'll see fluid dynamics in both cardiac and renal blocks, you'll see embryo in every block, etc.

 

[Goro]

Don't know if this is the right place to post, but I'm an admitted pre-med trying to narrow down which school I will attend. A lot of schools/applicants tout a systems-based curriculum as being the hot new thing. However, in my head it doesn't make sense. If you just learn one system then move on, isn't it more likely you'd forget the material rather than learning the anatomy one semester, the physiology the next, the patho after that etc? It seems like the 'traditional' way has more room for review. Maybe I have this wrong, but I'd really like to hear from your experiences about what type of curriculum you think is better. Thanks.

Honestly, I don't think any curriculum is better, given the different learning styles students bring into med school with them. I could probably lecture in Korean standing on my head and my students will still absorb the material.

Systems based curricula are nothing new. My school's been doing it for at least 15 years.

That said, students seem to like the systems approach better because you get to the clinical relevance faster. In addition, as you proceed thought the organ systems, you don't look at them in silos....you have to put all the stories together, for example, in Derm, you need to understand why the patients neck is darker hued if they're diabetic, or in renal, why they're peeing sugars if they have diabetes. The endocrine and renal systems are thus tied to each other. This is closer to clinical thinking thank the classic Flexner model is

The hot new thing is TBL and flipped classrooms, which supposed improve retention. Still awaiting data on how that works for Boards.

 

[Goro]

Do you see this priority changing or becoming less important for incoming M1s who likely will have P/F Step 1? Or would there still be substantial beauty and benefit in less mandatory crap?


When choosing a school, would one look for to identify the most flexibility during M3/4 years?

and lmao

Do keep in mind that we have to prepare you for wards and not merely Boards. Your medical education doesn't end with Step I.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Anecdotal, but my friend goes to a school with a traditional curriculum and it sounds miserable. So glad I go to a school with a systems curriculum. It would be really annoying to have to learn things all disjointed.

 

[deleted889094]

My traditional curriculum not getting a lot of love in this thread lol

 

[mvenus929]

From an educational theory standpoint, the things that make you learn and retain information better are 1) spaced practice (revisiting concepts after a period of not focusing on them anymore), 2) interleaving (this is making connections through unrelated material), 3) retrieval practice (pulling things from your memory to apply to the current problem--this is and spaced practice are the concepts behind Anki cards), and 4) elaboration (being able to expand upon previous information).

Both a traditional and systems based curriculum could do these practices well and thus may serve to teach students well. But the interleaving is likely going to be stronger in a systems-based curriculum, simply because it's built in from the start (i.e let's talk about how the heart functions and then explain what happens when that goes wrong, and then explain how this drug works to fix that, but also has effects in this other tissue). However, in a traditional curriculum, the interleaving is done mostly on the part of the student, so the connections may be stronger. But, that also means that the student has to make the connections, and not all students are good at doing that--if you don't have those connections, your practices of spaced practice, retrieval practice, and elaboration are also going to be weaker. Systems based schools also tend to use PBL in some fashion, which is all about the elaboration.