Why is graduate school free?

[GuyLaroche]

Actually Columbia's PhD program pays $25000 with a $1000 increase every year. I think the stipend level this year is $27000. They also pay tuition, full health insurance and money to attend as many conferences as the student is interested in. However, there were no moving expenses included.

Which was my point about location. It's in New York. Naturally, they have to pay more.

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[UCSBMed1]

Well, there are countless fields and only one medical field. Given this fact, you can see why there are many PhDs. If you are getting into medicine to impress the lay public, then you're getting into it for the wrong reasons. More than that, you are revealing defects in your mental capabilities.

Earning a PhD in 2 years? Wow, where exactly is this? I don't think online PhDs count in the frame of reference I am making my arguments in. I think you must have a really poor understanding of what getting a doctorate is about. And do not forget that PhDs are the true pioneers in medicine. The inventor of the ultrasound machine is get what? A freaking PhD.

The pervasive arrogance in your posts really irks me. Your pseudo-intellectualism does not frighten me, so don't sit here and act like you know what it takes to succeed in medical school. Contrary to popular belief, there is a HUGE amount of critical thinking necessary to be a competent physician. As someone said earlier, every patient presents differently, and the diseases you learned about in Robbins' Path or Harrison's Internal Medicine won't present the exact same way. It takes intelligence to be able to synthesize the information you gather from the patient in order to come up with an adequate plan. Wait until you start studying for the boards, buddy and then come back and tell me medical school is easy--PhD or not.

I've had a far easier time applying to medical school than I have had with getting into graduate school. I wonder what that means.

This last paragraph makes me feel silly for attempting to reason with you. I've no doubt you'll get into medical school. It's a surprisingly easy thing to do. However, you are certainly going to have a rude awakening at the end of your medical education.

It means jack--and I truly don't believe you. Any program that flies a prospective applicant out, wines and dines them, and then accept up to 50% of their applicants is not as competitive as applying to a top med program. Sure, getting into a bottom-ranked med school might be easier than getting into a top ranked grad program, but I'd be willing to bet you that, on average, the average MD program is MUCH more selective than the average biology graduate program.

Addendum: Why is it that having a doctorate degree in a medical field is believed to enhance your residency application? Could it be that residency directors understand something many of you are so unwilling to grasp? Methinks yes.

Come on, dude? I thought you were supposed to be an "intellectual?" As you may or may not know, medicine prides itself on taking people from all walks of life when deciding who they will train. The fact that you think your PhD made the Adcom realize that you should be trained simply because you have an advanced degree already says wonders about your lack of knowledge on the admissions process. Your PhD helped you get in, bro. Not everyone who applies to med school has an advanced degree already (be it masters or doctorates) and the fact that you did made you look unique.

I have no doubts that you were a great applicant, but don't sit here and try to say that because it was easier for you to get into med school than grad school means that it is easier on average. I GUARANTEE it would be even easier for you to get into grad school with an MD already...

The average acceptance rate for med school applicants is ~48%. I wonder what it is for grad students? It sure as h*ll is higher than that.

 

[GuyLaroche]

The pervasive arrogance in your posts really irks me. Your pseudo-intellectualism does not frighten me, so don't sit here and act like you know what it takes to succeed in medical school. ...[and the rest of the drunken schpill

I have never addressed my intelligence or even stated any of my credentials. The fact that you perceive these things suggests that you do think that I am intelligent. I am not flattered by it, of course. I am not fishing for a positive perception on SDN. I have never listed any academic facts about myself in an attempt to bolster my (as it turns out) very polarizing arguments. I'll continue to hold true to this ideal. There is nothing wrong with having a spirited debate. I do see a whole world of wrong in making pointed attacks at people simply because they are of a different opinion. I'd like to ask you to grow up, but that might already be a cause long lost.

Still, your objections to my post are duly noted.

 

[UCSBMed1]

I have never addressed my intelligence or even stated any of my credentials. The fact that you perceive these things suggests that you do think that I am intelligent. I am not flattered by it, of course. I am not fishing for a positive perception on SDN. I have never listed any academic facts about myself in an attempt to bolster my (as it turns out) very polarizing arguments. I'll continue to hold true to this ideal. There is nothing wrong with having a spirited debate. I do see a whole world of wrong in making pointed attacks at people simply because they are of a different opinion. I'd like to ask you to grow up, but that might already be a cause long lost.

Still, your objections to my post are duly noted.

Well you do have a PhD, right? That means you must be a pretty smart guy, right? Or is that just what you want everyone to believe by attacking MDs?

But the fact that you did not respond to any of my other comments proves that you think I am right. I'm not flattered by it, of course, but I do not take kindly to someone attacking a profession that they have no experience with. I'd ask you to grow up, but I know that by the time you graduate from medical school, you will be. There's no hiding behind your PI to get this degree..

 

[tigress]

I call it how I see it. Those cumes are a joke, I swear you all conspire to pretend that they are hard but even you know how ridiculously easy it all is. Plus, there's no pressure, all you have to do is pass, unlike the USMLE.

Please, the GRE and the MCAT are not even comparable, if that's what you are implying. . . .

I think the reason this has devolved into a "flame war" as someone classified it is that some of us are just fed up with our graduate school breathern. . . .

Like I said, the grad students I know have it so easy its incredible. Not only that, but they get paid to sit around all day and play. You can breeze through undergrad having the time of your life, graduate with a 3.1, and sit in grad school for 10 years while your "innovative thinking and creative ways" finally turn into a 300 page dissertation about the "Mating Patterns of South-West Tazmanian Field Mice."

Seriously, I don't know what you get out of insulting other people. There's obviously no use arguing with you because you will continue to sound like an idiot and an a**hole. For the other people reading this: grad school qualifying exams aren't a joke, and by this poster calling them "cumes" it shows how very little he knows about it. All schools have different ways of testing their students, and many don't have any written comprehensive exams. Rather we present our research and defend it dissertation-style, including detailed questions about every aspect of our field posed to us by faculty. In any case it's obvious this guy is just trying to piss people off, and I admit I'm offended, but I suppose it's best to just laugh at him when I realize how stupid his arguments are.

btw, I never compared the GRE to the MCAT. I didn't study a second for the GRE and got in the 99th percentile, and there's no question in my mind that the GRE is a joke relative to the MCAT. However an average in the 95th percentile for the GRE still means that the caliber of student going into a program is high relative to the caliber of student taking the GRE. Not just anybody can decide to go get a PhD, and if you think so you're totallly out of touch with reality.

You know, we all have to respect each other because we are all contributing the the greater goal of helping humanity through science and medicine. The most important lesson to learn from this "discussion" (flame war, argument, whatever) is that there is a lot of animosity among members of different fields. But the greatest advancements generally come via collaboration and cooperation, and both sides have to appreciate the contributions of the other. The other thing that occurs to me is that a lot of this is due to people on this board not actually knowing what they're talking about. In my experience most MDs and PhDs get along pretty well and respect each other.

p.s. One other thing occurred to me: Quite a few of the PIs in my school have MDs and went through highly competitive residencies before deciding to spend their lives doing research. These are high-power, ultra-competitive people (otherwise they wouldn't survive in a top academic institution). Most of these people say they have chosen research because of the more intellectual and creative nature the job (as compared to medicine). And my PI from last semester, and MD, told me numerous times that she thinks grad school is harder than med school (which I think is only true in the sense that it's less memorization and more application). Research and medical practice appeal to different types of people, which is why you see crossover from MDs going into research. But to suggest that one is better or worse than the other just doesn't make any sense.

 

[tkim]

It's getting a little thick in here. Unless people can tone down the rhetoric, this thread will be closed or moved.

 

[tigress]

Like I said, the grad students I know have it so easy its incredible. Not only that, but they get paid to sit around all day and play. You can breeze through undergrad having the time of your life, graduate with a 3.1, and sit in grad school for 10 years while your "innovative thinking and creative ways" finally turn into a 300 page dissertation about the "Mating Patterns of South-West Tazmanian Field Mice."

Oh, see that's your problem: you spend all your time with people who study the mating patterns of Tazmanian field mice. No wonder your friends have it so easy; they sit around all day watching mouse porn

 

[reddirtgirl]

I have not read this whole thread either..... but isn't it all about what brings you personal satisfaction/fulfillment when everything is said and done?

Comparing the process of getting a PhD to getting an MD is kinda apples and oranges, if you're talking about compensation/cost. A more accurate comparison is PhD programs vs residency programs. Both treat you as cheap labor, for starters.

A PhD program might be (arguably) easier to get into, but not so easy to get out of (w/ degree in hand). And then what?

I for one can no longer stand research. I would hate to spend my time (continuing to) pursuing esoterica. I will no longer tend to cells/animals/samples/preps/gels/slides/ecoli at ungodly hours and on weekends and holidays, though would be more than ok spending the same time on people in a clinical setting. Research to me seems like a gigaton of effort that may or may not yield a femtogram of theraputic value... and that may not pass all the stages of FDA approval... and even if it did, it may only be accesable to the few that can afford it. Or bounce back and get taken off the market. I need a bit more "closure", or at least the promise of one... sooner rather than indefinitely/in a few decades, or more likely, never.

I already get shat on by my boss (who incidentally is NOT a PhD but is an MD- and it shows, in a bad way... so clueless about the daily realities of research, so filled w/ typical MD pomposity). I'd rather get shat on in clinical medicine (or on my way to it) ..... And he is an example of how if one has an MD, they can do research AND clinical practice. But a PhD, as far as I know, is pretty much limited to research (psych excluded). There are plenty of MD's and DVM's that leave the clinic for the lab.

As an aisde, I've seen more than a handful of PhD's (and abd's- all but dissertation/defense) parlay their degrees into some sort of biotech-du-jour company. And how many of those make it? or even get sucessfully bought out by someone bigger (a common "exit" strategy in all of business). Speaking from experience, I couldn't deal with pimping myself to investors, bankers, lawyers, patents, PR/media types, living and dying by grants, running through regulatory hoops, etc.... again, that's just me.

Another option after a PhD is academia. I dare say that landing a quality, tenure track job in whatever field your PhD is in is MUCH harder than finding a job/setting up shop as an MD (extreme specialties excluded)... this is true even if you are an idiot of a PhD. The trend is to hire fewer and fewer tenure-track positions and use more "temporary instructors"- many of whom are desparate PhD's. I have seen this agonizing process in so many science PhD's. Perhaps PhD positions are more sensitive to trends in the economy than MD's?? And those PhD's that land jobs still have to live and die by grants.

Personally, I have come to be extremely disappointed with the PROCESS of research, both in academia and in industry, (start-ups and corporate). There are few things that I can think of that are as disappointing. Not that the "process" of medicine is w/o severe faults either. (One thing I do I know w/o a doubt is that the jerks I've met in science have prepped me well for the ones in medicine... and on a percentage basis, medicine has many more jerks... hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but I doubt it).

Every job/field has their own unique set of BS to put up with. To me the pain and BS involved with research/PhD is not worth my efforts, whereas it's worth it for clinical medicine/MD. I could be wrong or I could change my mind. Unlikely, but possible. And if so, I'll just go back into research. or farming. or chef school. or whatever.

just one person's perspective/experience.

 

[tigress]

Every job/field has their own unique set of BS to put up with. To me the pain and BS involved with research/PhD is not worth my efforts, whereas it's worth it for clinical medicine/MD. I could be wrong or I could change my mind. Unlikely, but possible. And if so, I'll just go back into research. or farming. or chef school. or whatever.

just one person's perspective/experience.

You know, a lot of what you say is true. And the funny thing is that I also hate the day-to-day reality research, and I'm sitting here defending PhD programs out of a sense of honor and because I see what my classmates go through every day. But as much as I defend it I'm actually applying to med school! I just have a lot of respect for PhDs after being in grad school.

right, time for me to get some sleep!

 

[reddirtgirl]

You know, a lot of what you say is true. And the funny thing is that I also hate the day-to-day reality research, and I'm sitting here defending PhD programs out of a sense of honor and because I see what my classmates go through every day. But as much as I defend it I'm actually applying to med school! I just have a lot of respect for PhDs after being in grad school.

right, time for me to get some sleep!

you gotta pick & choose your battles. if only I could practice what I preached..... *sigh* honor is good though. and perhaps in short supply....

and never underestimate the importance of the sex lives of Tasmanian field mice! at least someone's gettin' some!

 

[UCSBMed1]

you gotta pick & choose your battles. if only I could practice what I preached..... *sigh* honor is good though. and perhaps in short supply....

and never underestimate the importance of the sex lives of Tasmanian field mice! at least someone's gettin' some!

Just out of curiousity, what is CF?

Oh yeah, once you get to med school, you'll HATE when professors/docs use acronyms you don't understand. As a general rule, I try not to use them unless its one most people understand/know. Just a thought...

 

[reddirtgirl]

Just out of curiousity, what is CF?

Oh yeah, once you get to med school, you'll HATE when professors/docs use acronyms you don't understand. As a general rule, I try not to use them unless its one most people understand/know. Just a thought...

Only trying to be polite. CF=clusterf*ck.

 

[SoulRFlare]

Med students pay 50k a year because for the most part, once you finish med school and residency, you make enough money to pay off the loans in a short amount of time.

This brings up a good point. i think a lot of ppl who are fond of saying that grad students "work so much harder, get a real doc etc..." aren't taking residency training into account. Medical school is not the end of the line--its just the beginning--some of us will have up to 7 years post med school. we may not be doing any original thinking/research now, but that's what we are being trained to do every day in the future, with every patient that walks through the door.
med school is all "memorize and regurgitate" now so that we have the tools to think within a complex and expansive, and dynamic landscape later.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

And so we get to the root of all the poison. Jealousy isn't the best of emotions. You should know that. Besides, why are you reading another person's acceptance letter. I think you're revealing a lot about the pathology of your person. Yet you seem content to insult me when there is so much within you that needs sorting out.

Omg. Are you serious? I don't have much to say in this thread.. it is interesting, but you are pretty sensitive and dramatic Guy. He wasn't readily insulting you.. the guy even said he agreed with almost everything you said. You are the one coming off as insulting, by accusing him of lying, and by posting your opinions in a very argumentative and arrogant tone. I personally think you sound like a know-it-all who think too highly of themselves. Medicine does not need people like you.

Weebs

 

[GuyLaroche]

Omg. Are you serious? I don't have much to say in this thread.. it is interesting, but you are pretty sensitive and dramatic Guy. He wasn't readily insulting you.. the guy even said he agreed with almost everything you said. You are the one coming off as insulting, by accusing him of lying, and by posting your opinions in a very argumentative and arrogant tone. I personally think you sound like a know-it-all who think too highly of themselves. Medicine does not need people like you.

Weebs

This isn't an original idea. All of SDN seems to be teeming with anti-GL sentiment. It's been said before - in far more amusing ways. Still, your comments are noted.

 

[Furrball]

"Please, the GRE and the MCAT are not even comparable, if that's what you are implying. I studied for the GRE for a week before, took it and aced it. It's the easiest test around--getting a 700 to an 800 on the quantitative section in particular is ridiculously easy; heck it's even easier than the SAT. Even the verbal section, which is more challenging than the math, isn't on the same level as MCAT verbal. That test is a total joke. Hence, 95th percentile does not impress me. Never mind the fact that I know oh-so-many mediocre students who are now doing their PhDs for lack of anything better to do. They all got into top programs in their field too, because graduate school takes anyone and everyone. Try slipping that 3.1 past a med school admissions committee, it's just not going to happen."


You studied for the GRE and MCAT!? It's true that the GRE is not that difficult, nor is the MCAT, but the subject test part of the GRE... that is not that much fun.

And you can't compare departmental exams and orals to the USMLE exams. Grad school exams are designed to examine how a perosn thinks and their knowledge base. The USMLE are designed to test for minimum competence. Even though they give use scores for STEP 1, those numbers have no statistical significance becasue the exam is supposed to essentially be pass fail. In other words the USMLE scoring system is designed to give you an alpha not a beta and there is no p value.

 

[gdk420]

So then what is harder to get? A PhD in quantum physics from Cal tech or a MD in neurosurgery from Harvard? Does it even matter? Both are highly intellectual individuals with great talent and far above my head.

 

[medstyle]

GL is incredibly pompous. I think he may feel threatened by the fact that there are tons of people, age 22 and below, who have no advanced degree but are going to med school anyway. In fact, many of them will be going to schools he could not get into. In essence, his "qualifications" that took years of his life to amass were absolutely unnecessary for what he actually chose to do with his life.

Not everyone is gonna respect you for treading water academically, GL. So drop the alpha male act.

Holier than thou attitudes are often found with people who feel they are stuck with people not as capable as them. Perhaps when he proceeds to get smoked in medschool by whatever type of student he perceives himself better than, be it the "unqualified" minority, the naive asian kid who chose this profession to please his parents, or silver spoon slacker that's had the world on a string since day one, he'll realize that his inadequacies are just as targetable. You know, as the bitter grad school guy who is more comfortable talking out his a$$ than actually doing anything productive. He can quote the simpsons but does he know when kerry mullis finally got his nobel? He's an intellectual poser, comfortable strutting like a peacock around those he know cannot be smarter than him. If that posing was done in harvard yard that would be one thing, but most likely he's just a bitter above average school boy with alot of attitude but not enough qualifications to hang with the guys who are so smart they DESERVE to be cocky (but never are).

GL, I know your type, and I am a gunner. And I am gunning for you. When I see your type, spouting off pseudo intellectism, or criticizing others with your sarcastic comments, I make sure that I do better than you. If that means 12 hour saturdays in the library, thats fine. I've done it before, and I can do AT LEAST for the next two years.

You're gonna be surprised who is silently stronger than you my friend. Thats the beauty of med school: the kid gloves are off. Some of us have been quietly waiting our whole lives to study this subject with a passion you clearly lack. I am in it for the glory, and part of that glory is beating someone like you.

You treat your idealism and perceived academic high road as your salvation, but by your posts, you clearly are not motivated by the ideals you promote. You're just a snotty little gunner who thinks his stool doesn't stink. Thats cute. I hope I have someone like you in all my classes.

 

[Crake]

Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.

I think I've been so bitter towards grad students because Guy here reminds me of all the pompous, obnoxious, mediocre graduate students that I know. That's not to say every grad student is pompous, obnoxious, or mediocre (as I may have unfairly implied in my previous posts) but I get frustrated when someone like GL comes out with such a vapid, untrue blanket statement and passes it off with such smugness. So if I offended some of you hard-working grad students with my previous posts, you have my apologies.

 

[pseudoknot]

It's too bad that some of the posters in this thread see things in such black and white terms and need to characterize grad/med students as either brilliant, heroic supermen or drooling, subhuman *****s. I don't think this would be happening as much if people would stick to talking about things they know about firsthand (i.e., if you're not at least a resident, don't talk about what it's really like to practice medicine, and the same for those not in grad school). It's good to hear some of the reasonable and thoughtful posts like those from EvoDevo and QofQuimica though.

A comment from my personal experience with scientists: I do think most life science grad students probably at least thought about med school at some point. I also know a number of grad students and postdocs who did first apply to med school and did not get in.

In general though, the really good people didn't--either they never applied because they had decided against it, or they got in to both and chose grad school. If you look at successful scientists, I think few of them chose grad school because they couldn't get into med school. (I'd speculate this might be partly because people who try something once and give up when it fails aren't going to get far in science, but who knows.)

This brings me to another point, which is that the comparison of grad students to med students is really invalid, because the two fields screen people much differently. Is it more competitive to get into med school than grad school in biology? Obviously it is. But, once you get into med school, that's kind of it. You'll almost certainly graduate, and then you'll almost certainly get a residency and find a job practicing medicine, although maybe not in your dream specialty. On the other hand, many people don't finish grad school, and most of those that do will not find faculty jobs and will end up doing something other than what they really trained for. I don't think this makes one group better than the other, but if you want to compare them you'd do better to compare grad students with a random mix of med students and premeds.

Finally, there's more to life than how competitive something is. Guess what, becoming a police officer in California is far more competitive than becoming an MD, but I'm sure Crake and medstyle wouldn't say that cops are better than doctors. (I'm not stating an opinion here myself!)

 

[velikimajmun]

tax.

 

[firebody]

btw...people who cant get into medical school use grad schools as a backup.

wow. this has got to be one of the single dumbest post i've ever read here. i just showed half my engineering department at MIT this thread and we're all spending the next 2 days creating an algorithm to hack into SDN and find out who you are so we can hunt you down and make you feel inferior in your intelligence. expect a virus next time you log on plebeian. and thanks for giving me and my friends a break from our 'string and quantum theory' class (although we memorize clinical biochemistry for easy trivial reading). and also thanks for giving us a good rate of change to the curve y = r cubed over 3........for those of you feeble minded, that's derivative dy = 3 r squared dr over 3, or r squared dr, or r dr r - .....'har dee har har!!'

 

[drguy22]

wow. this has got to be one of the single dumbest post i've ever read here. i just showed half my engineering department at MIT this thread and we're all spending the next 2 days creating an algorithm to hack into SDN and find out who you are so we can hunt you down and make you feel inferior in your intelligence. expect a virus next time you log on plebeian. and thanks for giving me and my friends a break from our 'string and quantum theory' class (although we memorize clinical biochemistry for easy trivial reading). and also thanks for giving us a good rate of change to the curve y = r cubed over 3........for those of you feeble minded, that's derivative dy = 3 r squared dr over 3, or r squared dr, or r dr r - .....'har dee har har!!'

hahahaha...u just made my day.

 

[cbc]

I return to this thread looking for the answer to, "why do med students pay but grad students do not?" However, all I see is a flame-war and I have yet to be enlightened regarding the truth to original question. I challange you medical and graduate intellects to provide an accurate/sensible answer to that question rather than arguing about who is better. As I repeat, take this as a challenge.

 

[reddirtgirl]

I return to this thread looking for the answer to, "why do med students pay but grad students do not?" However, all I see is a flame-war and I have yet to be enlightened regarding the truth to original question. I challange you medical and graduate intellects to provide an accurate/sensible answer to that question rather than arguing about who is better. As I repeat, take this as a challenge.

grad school is analogous to being a resident.
post-doc'ing is analogous to fellowship.
2-3 postdocs per PhD in life science is not unusual.
2-3 fellowships per surgeon is also not unusal.

pseudointellectual pissing contest aside, this is a labor issue.

alternatively, you can compare it w/ law
MD~JD~'undergrad' professional degrees;
super/overachiever/MD PGY-zillion/fellow~LLM
not a perfect analogy but....

PhD programs vary wildy. Medicine has variety, but steps 1&2 makes it more standardized. There is no PhD equivalent.

This comparison is apples & oranges- in the end, they're both fruit.

and as much as I should not say anything to encourage the flame-o's,

firebody: LMAO (that would be: laugh my a$$ off).

 

[GuyLaroche]

grad school is analogous to being a resident.
post-doc'ing is analogous to fellowship.
2-3 postdocs per PhD in life science is not unusual.
2-3 fellowships per surgeon is also not unusal.

Absolutely well-summarized. Sometimes I get so lost in editorializing that I lose my message to the inflammatory nature of my word choices. (Ann Coulter and I belong to the same school of thought but sit on opposite sides of the aisle). Seeing it clearly distilled in flame-free language highlights my inefficient strategy. Well done. I hope this puts an end to it.

 

[EvoDevo]

btw...people who cant get into medical school use grad schools as a backup.

It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it for the world.

It seems that this question has been throroughly answered and we're now just in a flame war. Closing.