Why the heck is medical school so competitive to get into?

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treasure_yourself

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So just a background, I am a nontrad student who applied this cycle. I've had 6 DO interviews, 2 MD interviews, and a few acceptances.

I've been working full time at a derm clinic. And from my experience, I honestly feel that medicine is just another job. You deal with unhappy people, you deal with bull crap, you deal with insurance, prior authorizations, headaches, extremely incompetent people, etc. I also feel patients have the sense that you owe them a lot because they are paying you, or that you are a magician and can magically make their problems go away with a magic pill.

Being a doctor certainly isn't glamorous. To me, it's literally just like any other job in which you have to deal with people. Why on EARTH is med school so competitive to get into? Do pre-meds need to be disillusioned?!

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Expensive because of the high cost of operating a med school - think faculty salaries, insurance premiums, hospital contracts

Competitive because salary
 
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Expensive because of the high cost of operating a med school - think faculty salaries, insurance premiums, hospital contracts

Competitive because salary
Yeah I realized that haha and changed it. I was thinking about both things, expensive AND competitive.
 
But you will go through 10+ years of hell for it. Competitive pre-med, difficult med school, physically impossible residency...why is that highly sought after? Not to mention, lots of responsibility once working.
 
Why do people choose to become police officers? Go into politics?

Different strokes for different folks.

To some, the cons of the profession are heavily outweighed by the pros.
 
Some cultures very highly prize medicine as a career. Members of these cultures are over-represented among applicants.

Medicine is much more open to women than it was 60 years ago. That has also increased the pool of applicants in a dramatic way.

Because medical school education is so expensive, schools choose not to admit more students than can be accomodated in residency programs (necessary for licensure in the US). The number of residency slots available are capped for very practical reasons related to case load and financing. We should be grateful that schools don't open the doors to almost all-comers (making it less competitive) and leave half of them unable to earn a license to practice.
 
Yeah I understand everything LizzyM is saying, I am just baffled why SO MANY PEOPLE want to go through 10+ years of hell for a job that is in some ways just like any other job that deals with people and can be a pain in the a$$ and so demanding.

For example, I've had patients go absolutely berserk asking for refills and having a provider deny the refill. I've had old patients who take a crapton of medicines just "randomly grab a pill and took it" not knowing what the pill even was. I've had patients who refuse to take medicines when they absolutely need it because they want to "tough it out." I've had mean patients who don't appreciate ANYTHING we do. It's just infuriating.

$$, financial security, occasionally feel good about helping people. Those are pretty good reasons I guess.
 
So just a background, I am a nontrad student who applied this cycle. I've had 6 DO interviews, 2 MD interviews, and a few acceptances.

I've been working full time at a derm clinic. And from my experience, I honestly feel that medicine is just another job. You deal with unhappy people, you deal with bull crap, you deal with insurance, prior authorizations, headaches, extremely incompetent people, etc. I also feel patients have the sense that you owe them a lot because they are paying you, or that you are a magician and can magically make their problems go away with a magic pill.

Being a doctor certainly isn't glamorous. To me, it's literally just like any other job in which you have to deal with people. Why on EARTH is med school so competitive to get into? Do pre-meds need to be disillusioned?!
Thousands and and even up to 15,000 applicants for maybe 100 to 200 seats. Tons of these people are academic clones of each other too.
 
Medical training is not *actually* hell though for a lot of people. Yah it’s a very demanding job with a fairly long training pipeline (some might argue the training/learning never really stops and you have to be the kind of person who either enjoys or tolerates continuous studying to do the best job you can) but it also has, as has been mentioned, a very clear, substantial, and stable financial reward, a guarantee of a relatively high amount of profesional autonomy, and ample opportunities for personal development or branching out into new careers. How many other professions can say that?

Hell is having to work 2-3 Jobs just to get by, work in a job that you are not only not excited about but actively hate, constantly worrying about losing your only source of income or your life’s savings because of economic downturns or bubbles, etc. You know, the problems literally every other working person in the country faces. Yah people are ungrateful and can be difficult. So? Dealing with people can be challenging. Just because you’re not treated like a god-king at work doesn’t mean the job “is hell”.
 
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Medical training is not *actually* hell though for a lot of people. Yah it’s a very demanding job with a fairly long training pipeline (some might argue the training/learning never really stops and you have to be the kind of person who either enjoys or tolerates continuous studying to do the best job you can) but it also has, as has been mentioned, a very clear, substantial, and stable financial reward, a guarantee of a relatively high amount of profesional autonomy, and ample opportunities for personal development or branching out into new careers. How many other professions can say that?

Hell is having to work 2-3 Jobs just to get by, work in a job that you are not only not excited about but actively hate, constantly worrying about losing your only source of income or your life’s savings because of economic downturns or bubbles, etc. You know, the problems literally every other working person in the country faces. Yah people are ungrateful and can be difficult. So? Dealing with people can be challenging. Just because you’re not treated like a god-king at work doesn’t mean the job “is hell”.
That definitely describes some of the medical receptionists I work with.

I have some friends who are residents who literally developed itchy hives on their skin from not sleeping enough. That might not be what you are describing, but it sure sounds almost hell-like to me.
 
Current applicant, vet, signal/intel corp. Frequent combat missions with the most extreme being a 90-hour non-stop hilltop takeover, no sleep entirely, 75% of that was running/defending with a 80-lb load of ammos and gears. Remaining 25% was brain-intensive cyber defense and crypto in jungle combat HQ.

Your turn. #notsleepingenough

lol. No offense but most people here will not be able to relate to this and will think you’re just using your service to look cool/win an argument. Any of the vets/active duty on here, myself included, could respond to any of these threads about sleep with stories of being constantly sleep deprived for long periods of time.

What I’ve learned is that many people are capable of adapting to crappy conditions. After all, we were civilians once.

Edited to fix autocorrect.
 
Why on EARTH is med school so competitive to get into? Do pre-meds need to be disillusioned?!
1.8 million students graduate from US colleges with Bachelors degrees every year. Only 50K of them apply to med school. Only 20K get in.

Is it really that competitive in the grand scope? We're talking about ~5% of graduates with 40% of them being accepted.
 
Some people actually like medicine as a science and want to have that medical knowledge. No matter what job you do you will be dealing with unhappy/edgy people and there would always be stressors associated with the job. So if you eliminate all these factors from all jobs across the board, Medicine sticks out not only because of the salary, but also because you are doing something meaningful and can impact people‘s lives using your knowledge.


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So just a background, I am a nontrad student who applied this cycle. I've had 6 DO interviews, 2 MD interviews, and a few acceptances.

I've been working full time at a derm clinic. And from my experience, I honestly feel that medicine is just another job. You deal with unhappy people, you deal with bull crap, you deal with insurance, prior authorizations, headaches, extremely incompetent people, etc. I also feel patients have the sense that you owe them a lot because they are paying you, or that you are a magician and can magically make their problems go away with a magic pill.

Being a doctor certainly isn't glamorous. To me, it's literally just like any other job in which you have to deal with people. Why on EARTH is med school so competitive to get into? Do pre-meds need to be disillusioned?!

Why do you want to go medical school?

Why would you put yourself through what you view as 10 years of hell for just another job?

If I'd been as pessimistic as you as a premed I probably wouldn't have gone to medical school. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but I have trouble seeing why you'd want to pursue it if you feel this way.
 
1.8 million students graduate from US colleges with Bachelors degrees every year. Only 50K of them apply to med school. Only 20K get in.

Is it really that competitive in the grand scope? We're talking about ~5% of graduates with 40% of them being accepted.
Not that this is necessarily part of the competition within the application process itself, but I wonder how many of those 1.8 million declared an initial interest in medicine.
 
Not that this is necessarily part of the competition within the application process itself, but I wonder how many of those 1.8 million declared an initial interest in medicine.

I entered and graduated undergrad with no intentions of doing medicine. Well, sort of, i was set on nursing and then pharmacy before I decided medicine was the best choice for me.
 
1.8 million students graduate from US colleges with Bachelors degrees every year. Only 50K of them apply to med school. Only 20K get in.

Is it really that competitive in the grand scope? We're talking about ~5% of graduates with 40% of them being accepted.

Doesn't account for all the people who dropped the path along the way due to o-chem, the MCAT etc., though I doubt there's data for that.
 
Some cultures very highly prize medicine as a career. Members of these cultures are over-represented among applicants...

I'll reply at the end of this but I want to address that comment above first because I believe it needs to be explained in-context to avoid confusion amongst those misinformed about said cultures.

I certainly hope you are not referring to brown folk with that generalization because that would include me and you, or anybody for that matter, would be very mistaken if you think that the over-represented demographic that you are referring to applies to medical school solely because of cultural influence or a true lack of understanding of the career itself.

My parents encouraged me NOT to go down this route because of the time and money involved and to settle down with my "business" degree, get an MBA, and continue working in finance; very far from medicine. If I had continued down that route I would have been equally or maybe even more successful and I don't think I would be seen as an outlier in my community because I did't go into medicine as I am not the only brown guy who was not "pushed" to go into medicine. I voluntarily changed careers and entered this path in my 30's because this is what I WANTED TO DO and it's a decision I made ALONE. I am now a fourth-year at St. George's University in Grenada and I did very well during interview season and am now just waiting for my match in IM. To be honest, the way I went down this route would make most people in my "culture" cringe that I did it as an older student, accumulating debt, and putting off marriage and starting a family till a much later time than some people within the culture would consider ideal but I did it anyway.

I wouldn't say that certain cultures "prize" medicine as some type of a status symbol of sorts. You would be more accurate in saying that those cultures value very high achievement with regards to academics. Medicine, IMO, can certainly be considered the peak of academic achievement by any person let alone a specific group of people. The profession in turn does reward those high-achievers with job satisfaction, career stability, flexibility, and handsome pay among other things. I don't believe that is a career outlook valued by just one culture however. If a certain group of kids, brown kids lets say, are good with math and science then I would automatically expect that medicine would be very high on their career prospects list hence the over-representation of the applicants you mention but I don't think it is fair to say that culture is the root cause for that as somebody still has to make the grades and pass the tests. I would also argue that some of those cultures that, as you say, "highly prize" medicine as a career also include cultures who are not over-represented or not even minorities at all. Hell, I know Nigerian parents that push medicine more than brown folk but I don't think you were referring to Nigerians. The over-representation of any group of people is, if anything, an academic influence, not a cultural one. If all the "over-represented" applicants were stupid, it would be rather pointless for their parents to "highly prize" medicine as a career right? So lets be clear, over-representation of these people in the application pool is primarily a product of high-achievement first, population second, and culture not as much as you think. Last time I checked, a brown guy needs a higher GPA and MCAT score than their white male counterpart to be competitive so I'm going to go out on a limb and just say the brown guy/girl has every right to and would want to put their application into that pool if they are bringing high stats to the table; or in this case, stats certainly exceeding those of the average applicant.

To answer the OP's question rather bluntly, decrease physician salaries by 30% across the board, have non-MD's continue to dictate even more physician responsibilities and quotas, increase insurance regulations and decrease reimbursement even more, give greater autonomy and responsibility to NP's, PA's and other mid-level providers, and you will see that medical school admission statistics will sink like a stalling 747 once the word hits the streets.

Medicine is lucrative on many levels; financial, personal, societal, professional, and certainly the humanistic rewards. That's what most people see and that's why you have such high demand and competition because the outlook is usually one-sided. Focus more on the realities of medicine and maybe you wouldn't have such high competition as some of the realities of the career might sway people to other areas of medicine or even other careers flat out. To be fair, how much would you expect a teenager or young adult to know about medicine before getting into it? My understanding is certainly very different today than when I was a young volunteer at 16.

Personally, if an 18-year-old comes up to me today and says "hey, I think I want to be a doctor too!" I would steer that kid to a 3+3 BS/PA state-school route and tell them to start making $120K at 24, save up a ton of that money over the next 8-10 years and then if they decide that being a PA isn't cutting it for them and they indeed want to pursue an MD or DO, to go ahead and apply at that point as you can now you can finance your medical education with cash on hand all while coming into the profession with a very clear perspective of medicine most of your classmates will not have. You will also now be able to say 100% why you want to become a doctor and not something else. And I would bet my own money that it wouldn't be for the money or prestige and you would have the best shot at truly being happy with the decision to practice medicine.

Certainly not conventional but then again neither is culture.
 
I'm not going to name the cultures that highly prize medicine as a career but it is not limited to "brown" people. Now that I think of it, Nigerian-Americans may be over-represented among applicants (compared to the proportion of Nigerian-Americans in the target age range among all Americans in the target age range).

Furthermore, while specific cultures may highly value medicine and a career and people from that cultural group may choose a career that carries significant prestige in their community, it does not follow that every person of that culture who choose medicine does so because of the high prestige of the profession or that their parents had anything to do with the decision.

Many cultures prize high academic achievement but many also prize high income producing professions and medicine has both. It takes high academic achievement to be a successful historian or philosopher or physicist but there aren't flocks of college students gunning for those careers.

I stand by my statement that interest in the profession by some cultural groups has resulted in an increased competition for the limited number of seats in the US.
 
1.8 million students graduate from US colleges with Bachelors degrees every year. Only 50K of them apply to med school. Only 20K get in.

Is it really that competitive in the grand scope? We're talking about ~5% of graduates with 40% of them being accepted.

Thing to remember is that many people who want to get accepted to medical don't apply when they know there stats are too low. So ya, of the ones that apply, 40% get accepted. But many more don't apply and are waiting for their chance.
 
I'm not going to name the cultures that highly prize medicine as a career but it is not limited to "brown" people. Now that I think of it, Nigerian-Americans may be over-represented among applicants (compared to the proportion of Nigerian-Americans in the target age range among all Americans in the target age range).

Furthermore, while specific cultures may highly value medicine and a career and people from that cultural group may choose a career that carries significant prestige in their community, it does not follow that every person of that culture who choose medicine does so because of the high prestige of the profession or that their parents had anything to do with the decision.

Many cultures prize high academic achievement but many also prize high income producing professions and medicine has both. It takes high academic achievement to be a successful historian or philosopher or physicist but there aren't flocks of college students gunning for those careers.

I stand by my statement that interest in the profession by some cultural groups has resulted in an increased competition for the limited number of seats in the US.

As a Nigerian American I definitely agree with you. Through-out my undergrad and my masters, more often than not my black classmates were first generation Nigerian, Jamaican, Ghanian etc. But I would say that it more so stems from the fact that a lot of our parents uprooted their lives and sacrificed A LOT by coming to the U.S. to give their children their best chance of being successful. Medicine just so happens to be one of those careers where the path for success is like following an instruction manual. You of course have to be passionate, motivated and put in an extreme amount of effort to make it but I think its one of the few careers where there isn't too much questioning of what needs to be done to become a doctor. A lot of foreign parents don't promote their children gambling on their futures with riskier careers hence the attraction to medicine but I think its because of cultures valuing success and respect not specifically medicine. If being a musical artist or an athlete had a similar "linear" pathway I'm sure you would see the same oversaturation effect. But these careers depend on a lot more luck along with an extreme amount of skill than is needed for medicine hence the hesistation from a lot of foreign parents.
 
Chicks, money, power, chicks

Chicks - ya, being a physician looks good, however if I had a regular 40 hour/week job I would be working out 2-3 hours a day. You better believe you can get chicks easier that way.

Money - Meh. Yes and no.

Power - Be an office manager. They are powerful....seriously...
 
Not that this is necessarily part of the competition within the application process itself, but I wonder how many of those 1.8 million declared an initial interest in medicine.

Gen chem at my school went from ~1000 to ~500 before the end of the year. We could track it based on the number of responses from "clicker" questions we always had, every exam would lose scores of young hopefuls
 
I'm not going to name the cultures that highly prize medicine as a career but it is not limited to "brown" people. Now that I think of it, Nigerian-Americans may be over-represented among applicants (compared to the proportion of Nigerian-Americans in the target age range among all Americans in the target age range).

Furthermore, while specific cultures may highly value medicine and a career and people from that cultural group may choose a career that carries significant prestige in their community, it does not follow that every person of that culture who choose medicine does so because of the high prestige of the profession or that their parents had anything to do with the decision.

Many cultures prize high academic achievement but many also prize high income producing professions and medicine has both. It takes high academic achievement to be a successful historian or philosopher or physicist but there aren't flocks of college students gunning for those careers.

I stand by my statement that interest in the profession by some cultural groups has resulted in an increased competition for the limited number of seats in the US.


I believe you misunderstood my post. I was arguing that high academic achievement automatically warrants an application to medical school, which I and many others believe is the pinnacle of academic achievement, regardless of who you are or what culture you belong to. You were arguing that cultural influence has something to do with over-representation of certain groups and when you say it like that, it's very hard to not come to the conclusion that you are referring to a certain group as if their parents or members within that society are literally pushing them into medicine for superficial reasons because that's all they see. If all the Jewish parents told their kids to go to medical school, would you word your argument the same way?

Realistically, a student who performs well in math and science regardless of their cultural background is going to apply to medical school or has at least considered applying to medical school at one point or another. I for one do not have any classmates or acquaintances who pursued the historian, philosopher, or physicist route so I'm under the impression most people really don't flock to those careers at all. I don't remember my HS guidance counselor recommending I become a physicist because of my stellar science grades and SAT scores so I don't even know how realistic your example is.

My point is that if you have certain cultural groups dominating the applicant pool for a certain profession, the focus should be on the talent or skills and not the influence. You can quantify the talent with numbers or other attributes and justify the application, I don't know how you could do the same for cultural influence unless you interviewed each of those students as to why they were pursuing medicine as a career and that seems crazy. That's like me coming to the conclusion that the basketball market is saturated by black guys because they are only doing it for money and prestige and the respect it brings to their families lol.

I do see where you were going with that argument though and I will give you the benefit of the doubt but I'm saying that is a generalization at best.
 
I believe you misunderstood my post. I was arguing that high academic achievement automatically warrants an application to medical school, which I and many others believe is the pinnacle of academic achievement, regardless of who you are or what culture you belong to. You were arguing that cultural influence has something to do with over-representation of certain groups and when you say it like that, it's very hard to not come to the conclusion that you are referring to a certain group as if their parents or members within that society are literally pushing them into medicine for superficial reasons because that's all they see. If all the Jewish parents told their kids to go to medical school, would you word your argument the same way?

Realistically, a student who performs well in math and science regardless of their cultural background is going to apply to medical school or has at least considered applying to medical school at one point or another. I for one do not have any classmates or acquaintances who pursued the historian, philosopher, or physicist route so I'm under the impression most people really don't flock to those careers at all. I don't remember my HS guidance counselor recommending I become a physicist because of my stellar science grades and SAT scores so I don't even know how realistic your example is.

My point is that if you have certain cultural groups dominating the applicant pool for a certain profession, the focus should be on the talent or skills and not the influence. You can quantify the talent with numbers or other attributes and justify the application, I don't know how you could do the same for cultural influence unless you interviewed each of those students as to why they were pursuing medicine as a career and that seems crazy. That's like me coming to the conclusion that the basketball market is saturated by black guys because they are only doing it for money and prestige and the respect it brings to their families lol.

I do see where you were going with that argument though and I will give you the benefit of the doubt but I'm saying that is a generalization at best.

I'm not saying anything about whether any applicant should or should not be admitted to medical school. I'm only noting that there are twice as many applicants as seats in the entire country and the mismatch between applicants and seats seems to be due to the fact that some groups that could be identified by culture (ethnicity and values) are over-represented in the pool of applicants thus driving up the size of the pool. In addition, a change in the viewpoint around women in medicine has doubled the pool of potential applicants from what it was 60 years ago when women rarely applied and were unlikely to be successful in gaining admission if they did apply. (I once met a physician who graduated in the mid-1950s who was the only woman in her class and the classes ahead and behind her had no women at all!)
 
Chicks - ya, being a physician looks good, however if I had a regular 40 hour/week job I would be working out 2-3 hours a day. You better believe you can get chicks easier that way.

Money - Meh. Yes and no.

Power - Be an office manager. They are powerful....seriously...
Does no one watch Scrubs anymore :lame:
 
I believe you misunderstood my post. I was arguing that high academic achievement automatically warrants an application to medical school, which I and many others believe is the pinnacle of academic achievement, regardless of who you are or what culture you belong to. You were arguing that cultural influence has something to do with over-representation of certain groups and when you say it like that, it's very hard to not come to the conclusion that you are referring to a certain group as if their parents or members within that society are literally pushing them into medicine for superficial reasons because that's all they see. If all the Jewish parents told their kids to go to medical school, would you word your argument the same way?

Realistically, a student who performs well in math and science regardless of their cultural background is going to apply to medical school or has at least considered applying to medical school at one point or another. I for one do not have any classmates or acquaintances who pursued the historian, philosopher, or physicist route so I'm under the impression most people really don't flock to those careers at all. I don't remember my HS guidance counselor recommending I become a physicist because of my stellar science grades and SAT scores so I don't even know how realistic your example is.

My point is that if you have certain cultural groups dominating the applicant pool for a certain profession, the focus should be on the talent or skills and not the influence. You can quantify the talent with numbers or other attributes and justify the application, I don't know how you could do the same for cultural influence unless you interviewed each of those students as to why they were pursuing medicine as a career and that seems crazy. That's like me coming to the conclusion that the basketball market is saturated by black guys because they are only doing it for money and prestige and the respect it brings to their families lol.

I do see where you were going with that argument though and I will give you the benefit of the doubt but I'm saying that is a generalization at best.
PhDs are the pinnacle of academic achievement, not medicine. It's a much less rigorous academic affair.
 
PhDs are the pinnacle of academic achievement, not medicine. It's a much less rigorous academic affair.

Yes of course. In five months let's take my MD and let's go talk to Joe Blow and grill him about his online Ph.D.
 
I'm not saying anything about whether any applicant should or should not be admitted to medical school. I'm only noting that there are twice as many applicants as seats in the entire country and the mismatch between applicants and seats seems to be due to the fact that some groups that could be identified by culture (ethnicity and values) are over-represented in the pool of applicants thus driving up the size of the pool. In addition, a change in the viewpoint around women in medicine has doubled the pool of potential applicants from what it was 60 years ago when women rarely applied and were unlikely to be successful in gaining admission if they did apply. (I once met a physician who graduated in the mid-1950s who was the only woman in her class and the classes ahead and behind her had no women at all!)

I'm not arguing any of that and I'm certainly not suggesting that any one group should be admitted to medical school or not. What I am arguing is the context of your statement as it pertains to why there is over representation of one group in the application pool. The original post is asking why medicine is so competitive and I feel that in so many words your response is something along the lines of "It's because of so and so people and their cultural values and how they are being pushed into the medical school pipeline for all the wrong reasons and crowding it" If there are too many applicants and if that is a problem of sorts, I suggest admissions committees increase admissions standards even more to thin that pool out some more. Even then, I promise you those cultural groups will most probably still saturate that pool once again, my argument is even with high admissions standards, you are going to have all types of students that will meet those requirements and then some. It's not as simple as mom and dad saying "pick medicine."

Also, the whole process from applying to, attending, and graduating medical school is long and expensive as I'm sure you know and not something every family is supportive of. I can promise you that all of the members of whatever cultures don't all have the means or patience to go through with something like that. So even if they do see it as a prestigious career or whatever, it might actually just be a dream for a lot of people and maybe even a less-than-ideal career choice for others. So the fact that you have an over saturation of certain groups of people says more to the academic achievements of the student than it does to some outside influence or even their current circumstances. The solution to the over-representation then is to raise admission standards or open more medical schools stateside because of the overwhelming talent in the pool. I mean I don't know how else I could explain something like that.
 
Yes of course. In five months let's take my MD and let's go talk to Joe Blow and grill him about his online Ph.D.

My sister can take her PhD and go talk to Joe Blow about his Caribbean MD. An MD is not easy to get, as it is difficult to get in, and the material is vast. But a PhD is difficult to finish and requires substantial research.
 
My sister can take her PhD and go talk to Joe Blow about his Caribbean MD. An MD is not easy to get, as it is difficult to get in, and the material is vast. But a PhD is difficult to finish and requires substantial research.

I'm going ahead and assuming you are not a medical student?
 
I'm going ahead and assuming you are not a medical student?

I have not started yet, no. But if your only response is a misused appeal to authority, I'm afraid that isn't very convincing since I was pointing out that finding the extreme low end of PhDs (i.e., online PhDs from diploma mills) and pitting them against the average MD is misleading--a point you did not address.
 
Why do you want to go medical school?

Why would you put yourself through what you view as 10 years of hell for just another job?

If I'd been as pessimistic as you as a premed I probably wouldn't have gone to medical school. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but I have trouble seeing why you'd want to pursue it if you feel this way.
Well I applied to medical school before I got this job, so I had an idealized imagination of medicine- that all the patients would appreciate my work, that people would respect me, that insurance wasn't such a pain in the a$$, etc. etc. Now that I am working full time in a clinic basically doing everything to make the clinic run smoothly, I still see myself being a doctor but I feel that if other premeds knew just what medicine was REALLY like, they would back out.

Also I've come to realize that when people are in pain or want medicine (like opioids), they go bat crazy.
 
As a racial minority, I don't really think cultures "value" medicine more (and granted, this can ONLY be applied to America), but rather I think some people (myself included) have parents who came from the poorest of the poor in their home countries, and so they push their kids for the most stable career which is medicine in America. (In other countries, medicine is NOT the most stable highest earning career)
 
Chicks - ya, being a physician looks good, however if I had a regular 40 hour/week job I would be working out 2-3 hours a day. You better believe you can get chicks easier that way.

Money - Meh. Yes and no.

Power - Be an office manager. They are powerful....seriously...
Believe me, I know.
 
I have not started yet, no. But if your only response is a misused appeal to authority, I'm afraid that isn't very convincing since I was pointing out that finding the extreme low end of PhDs (i.e., online PhDs from diploma mills) and pitting them against the average MD is misleading--a point you did not address.

The Ph.D. is a degree that has high variability. You can get a Ph.D. in a lot of different disciplines from A LOT of different places and you can take your time getting it. The MD is an MD whether it is from Harvard, SUNY, St. George's, or the University of Bologna. That is assuming you are licensed to practice medicine. Beyond that, the degree has zero variability since everyone is required to take standardized licensing exams. The Harvard MD is no different than my MD. The training may vary to some extent but we are both licensed to practice 100% of the same medicine within the same field.

I stand by what I said that the MD is the pinnacle of academic achievement. If you can get an MD, it is my belief that you can undertake most any academic endeavor AND succeed. The same cannot necessarily be said of any Ph.D. going to medical school. I say this because I have completed that process and that is how I feel about it.

Anyway, I did what I had to do down there and I am just sitting back and taking it easy at the moment. When you go down that path for yourself, I think you will have a much better understanding of the point I was trying to make.
 
The Ph.D. is a degree that has high variability. You can get a Ph.D. in a lot of different disciplines from A LOT of different places and you can take your time getting it. The MD is an MD whether it is from Harvard, SUNY, St. George's, or the University of Bologna. That is assuming you are licensed to practice medicine. Beyond that, the degree has zero variability since everyone is required to take standardized licensing exams. The Harvard MD is no different than my MD. The training may vary to some extent but we are both licensed to practice 100% of the same medicine within the same field.

I stand by what I said that the MD is the pinnacle of academic achievement. If you can get an MD, it is my belief that you can undertake most any academic endeavor AND succeed. The same cannot necessarily be said of any Ph.D. going to medical school. I say this because I have completed that process and that is how I feel about it.

Anyway, I did what I had to do down there and I am just sitting back and taking it easy at the moment. When you go down that path for yourself, I think you will have a much better understanding of the point I was trying to make.
My dad has a PhD in a STEM field and he is the smartest person I know. His assistant has a PhD in a liberal art and was unable to find a job in her field.

I have two friends currently pursuing a PhD in a STEM field at Stanford, and they are literally the smartest hardest working people ever.

I definitely think some people who chose to pursue a PhD in STEM fields could definitely have done medical school if they chose.
 
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The Ph.D. is a degree that has high variability. You can get a Ph.D. in a lot of different disciplines from A LOT of different places and you can take your time getting it. The MD is an MD whether it is from Harvard, SUNY, St. George's, or the University of Bologna. That is assuming you are licensed to practice medicine. Beyond that, the degree has zero variability since everyone is required to take standardized licensing exams. The Harvard MD is no different than my MD. The training may vary to some extent but we are both licensed to practice 100% of the same medicine within the same field.

I stand by what I said that the MD is the pinnacle of academic achievement. If you can get an MD, it is my belief that you can undertake most any academic endeavor AND succeed. The same cannot necessarily be said of any Ph.D. going to medical school. I say this because I have completed that process and that is how I feel about it.

Anyway, I did what I had to do down there and I am just sitting back and taking it easy at the moment. When you go down that path for yourself, I think you will have a much better understanding of the point I was trying to make.

You're kidding right? It's an impressive academic achievement, but also one where you don't even need calculus 1. As someone who has taken level 600 quantum chemistry, please don't underestimate STEM advanced degrees. This is a prime example of physicians not understanding that a PhD in astrophysics or engineering is much more rigorous than you imagine.

You said that an MD is the pinnacle academic achievement, and then state "well, Harvard's MD is on the same level as my MD program". So it seems you have already decided that whatever path you take is the most difficult. Just showing you the bias.
 
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The Ph.D. is a degree that has high variability. You can get a Ph.D. in a lot of different disciplines from A LOT of different places and you can take your time getting it. The MD is an MD whether it is from Harvard, SUNY, St. George's, or the University of Bologna. That is assuming you are licensed to practice medicine. Beyond that, the degree has zero variability since everyone is required to take standardized licensing exams. The Harvard MD is no different than my MD. The training may vary to some extent but we are both licensed to practice 100% of the same medicine within the same field.

I stand by what I said that the MD is the pinnacle of academic achievement. If you can get an MD, it is my belief that you can undertake most any academic endeavor AND succeed. The same cannot necessarily be said of any Ph.D. going to medical school. I say this because I have completed that process and that is how I feel about it.

Anyway, I did what I had to do down there and I am just sitting back and taking it easy at the moment. When you go down that path for yourself, I think you will have a much better understanding of the point I was trying to make.
I think this is sort of a self-defeating argument, if we take that first paragraph as true and all MDs are equivalent in terms of academic achievement because of the standardized exams along the way. Take a look at the rate of people passing step 1 with low academic metrics. Out of ~600 people with an MCAT of 20 or below (bottom 25% on the exam), about 95% pass step 1. Same thing for people with a 2.x GPA, there are ~1000 and 95% pass.

So there are plenty of C+ students and bottom quartile entrance exam scorers that pass the tests and get the MD. Dunno if I believe that means a PhD in physics would go well too
 
You're kidding right? It's an impressive academic achievement, but also one where you don't even need calculus 1. As someone who has taken level 600 quantum chemistry, please don't underestimate STEM advanced degrees. This is a prime example of physicians not understanding that a PhD in astrophysics or engineering is much more rigorous than you imagine.

You said that an MD is the pinnacle academic achievement, and then state "well, Harvard's MD is on the same level as my MDs program". So it seems you have already decided that whatever path you take is the most difficult. Just showing you the bias.

You are making the mistake of comparing my assessment to arbitrary courses; that proves nothing. The MD is an integrative degree with the toughest licensing exams in the business. That is what makes it the pinnacle of academic achievement. It's the knowledge to some degree but it's the feat itself that sets it apart from most any other academic endeavor. I'll go as far as saying a doctor is certainly no genius but integrating the amount of material you are required to know in those first two years is not for the faint of heart. I scored 240. Some people can score 250 and 260.

There is no bias on my part. You flubbed that Harvard quote; you added a few extra words to it. I said the Harvard MD is the same as my MD. I don't know about Harvard's program because I never went there but I do know the Harvard MD who starts PGY-1 in IM in July is on the exact same level as me.

You can go take the hardest course known to man but what does it prove exactly? I on the other hand will soon be allowed to save lives in all 50 states and in most any country in the world should I choose. That is what I am trying to help you understand with saying that the MD degree is the pinnacle of academic achievement.
 
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