Will physicians be taxed out the a** if Bernie Sanders is president?

[efle]

Ah yes....the Robber Baron days. That was true America.

I am also certain they would have improved once factory owners were shown the conditions that workers were subjected to.

@efle why would you take money from those that rightfully earned it? What sort of message does this send to up and coming young men and women in the working class? "Work hard so those in poverty that didn't work can steal your money?" Please explain yourself, efle.

Turns out people seek education and productive work even when they'd have a decent life on welfare!

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[SabaChampion]

Except instead of conditions improving, the business continually expanded. I'm sure you saw the end of slavery as something similar? They'd have freed their slaves I'd only they'd gotten wealthy enough to do so, before those pesky moral thugs got involved

The problem with slavery is the lack of consent. So no, slaves have the right to fight and kill for their freedom. And before you say so, yes I am aware that for many factory workers the choice was between working and starving. That is still a choice. And no, I would not have had any problem with slavery had it been indentured servitude instead.

 

[efle]

The problem with slavery is the lack of consent. So no, slaves have the right to fight and kill for their freedom. And before you say so, yes I am aware that for many factory workers the choice was between working and starving. That is still a choice. And no, I would not have had any problem with slavery had it been indentured servitude instead.

There was a "choice" between slavery and violence or death too, what kind of nonsense logic is that. Point remains that people/businesses have repeatedly shown they will choose money over humane treatment. More money for the few simply doesn't equate to better lives for everyone else.

 

[StudyLater]

Point remains that people/businesses have repeatedly shown they will choose money over humane treatment.

As you would probably say: This is just economics 101.

More money for the few simply doesn't equate to better lives for everyone else.

Right. But is that the few's problem? And if not (it's not, legally), then why make it their problem?

Riveting questions.

 

[Lawpy]

In the end, time is a flat circle

Everyone should, many who espouse it in public/abstract don't ever follow through though, and it is abundantly clear that letting the rich keep every cent is not the means to achieve it

@Nietzschelover may agree, but i argue that it's only a temporary obstacle that can be easily overcome by a gift of open-mindedness

again with the anti-rich rant. You do realize that increased taxation means that the government can't function without rich people driving it, right?

 

[StudyLater]

@Nietzschelover may agree, but i argue that it's only a temporary obstacle that can be easily overcome by a gift of open-mindedness

again with the anti-rich rant. You do realize that increased taxation means that the government can't function without rich people driving it right?

Or...or....

we print more money.

Heh?? Good plan right????

 

[Lawpy]

Or...or....

we print more money.

Heh?? Good plan right????

This is why we need the gold standard.

 

[StudyLater]

This is why we need the gold standard.

Love it. Peg the value of everything against a shiny rock.

Whose value fluctuates.

 

[efle]

As you would probably say: This is just economics 101.



Right. But is that the few's problem? And if not (it's not, legally), then why make it their problem?

Riveting questions.

I'd argue it is legally their problem, in that they are legally required to pay the majority of the taxes funding social programs, as it should be. And I'd say it ought to be their problem just like the totally-not-cool aspect of slavery was made a problem for slave owners. Sitting on excess through the suffering of others is unethical, and law is just an attempt to codify ethics

@Nietzschelover may agree, but i argue that it's only a temporary obstacle that can be easily overcome by a gift of open-mindedness

again with the anti-rich rant. You do realize that increased taxation means that the government can't function without rich people driving it right?

And as I've said before, if somehow everything changed and businesses did all make great treatment and decent incomes for their workers a priority, I'd have no issue with the lib ideology. All I care about is seeing people taken care of, via whatever system best does so, and you'd be hard pressed to look through history and say unrestricted economics does the best job

Here's a thought - what if we drive government via the productivity of a huge middle class, rather than the top fraction of a percent?

This is why we need the gold standard.

This is sarcasm right

 

[StudyLater]

Sitting on excess through the suffering of others is unethical

And the basis of every business in America that employs >=1 person other than the owner.

 

[Lawpy]

Love it. Peg the value of everything against a shiny rock.

Whose value fluctuates.

Far better than trying to support the economy with artificially-induced inflation.

And as I've said before, if somehow everything changed and businesses did all make great treatment and decent incomes for their workers a priority, I'd have no issue with the lib ideology. All I care about is seeing people taken care of, via whatever system best does so, and you'd be hard pressed to look through history and say unrestricted economics does the best job

Here's a thought - what if we drive government via the productivity of a huge middle class, rather than the top fraction of a percent?


This is sarcasm right

Free market wasn't the cause of social ills like slavery, child labor, bad working conditions etc. Rather it was the society that was woefully ignorant and suppressive at that time. The two are distinct.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of sharp progressive taxes?

Not at all. Commodity money is always better than fiat money. Gold standard is just a popular example used.

 

[SabaChampion]

@Nietzschelover may agree, but i argue that it's only a temporary obstacle that can be easily overcome by a gift of open-mindedness

again with the anti-rich rant. You do realize that increased taxation means that the government can't function without rich people driving it, right?

It is the inclination of the weak to feed off of the strong. In the case you are talking about, the weak exploit the strong through democracy and taxation. It is the duty of the strong to prevent the tyranny of the majority by putting the unwashed masses to work.

 

[StudyLater]

Far better than trying to support the economy with artificially-induced inflation.

Yeah. Using artificially mined metals just feels better.

Free market wasn't the cause of social ills like slavery, child labor, bad working conditions etc. Rather it was the society that was woefully ignorant and suppressive at that time. The two are distinct.

Or maybe together. As a complex. Allosterically inhibited by the handout-seeking impoverished class.

 

[SabaChampion]

Here's a thought - what if we drive government via the productivity of a huge middle class, rather than the top fraction of a percent?

The middle class just consists of member of the lower class who have managed to etch out a relatively comfortable existence. They will never be producers in society.

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah. Using artificially mined metals just feels better.



Or maybe together. As a complex. Allosterically inhibited by the handout-seeking impoverished class.

They are naturally mined actually. Regardless of the mining process, natural resources are always better than an arbitrarily defined paper.

More like government interference serving as an enzyme to catalyze the incredibly slow reaction between oppressive society and helpful free market.

 

[heebeejeebies]

I just read the last few pages, maybe applying to America wasn't a good call...

The fact that this conversation is even happening boggles my mind, like some healthcare Poe's law stuff.

 

[efle]

And the basis of every business in America that employs >=1 person other than the owner.

I see a difference between total equality and unethical profit from a great disparity causing suffering. A good deal of psych research has shown happiness increases as a function of wealth from poverty into middle class, but then stops predicting increased happiness from improvements past middle. If someone wants to be filthy rich and give all employees a middle class existence, I'm fine with that.

Far better than trying to support the economy with artificially-induced inflation.



Free market wasn't the cause of social ills like slavery, child labor, bad working conditions etc. Rather it was the society that was woefully ignorant and suppressive at that time. The two are distinct.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of sharp progressive taxes?

Not at all. Commodity money is always better than fiat money. Gold standard is just a popular example used.

That's the thing - social ills are still present. Workers are always treated the worst society allows them to be. The fundamental money > humanity behavior remains. Society has progressed by implementing an increasing set of restrictions on what is not allowed economically, from no slavery to no child labor to soon, healthcare as a citizen's right. Removing restrictions does not result in companies continuing to behave at the same level they've been taught to here, as your theory would predict - look at the conditions of overseas sweatshop labor and seriously tell me that it was at that time that businesses were willing to be cruel and suppressive but have since learned better.

Sharp progressive taxes are only necessary when the existing middle class is far too tiny to foot the bill. The same amount of money ends up being needed either way. The large middle class instead of a few in excess just changes the number of people that get high quality lives.

The middle class just consists of member of the lower class who have managed to etch out a relatively comfortable existence. They will never be producers in society.

And what of societies in which doctors, lawyers, CEOs share in the same giant middle class existence? Do you believe socialist countries are, as a rule, devoid of producers?

I just read the last few pages, maybe applying to America wasn't a good call...

The fact that this conversation is even happening boggles my mind, like some healthcare Poe's law stuff.

Starts to make sense why America is so slow to make progress huh? Can only hope that fifty years from now the American generation can look back at us the way we can look at grandparents that were on the fence about racial segregation

 

[StudyLater]

I see a difference between total equality and unethical profit from a great disparity causing suffering. A good deal of psych research has shown happiness increases as a function of wealth from poverty into middle class, but then stops predicting increased happiness from improvements past middle. If someone wants to be filthy rich and give all employees a middle class existence, I'm fine with that.

I can get behind this.

 

[StudyLater]

I just read the last few pages, maybe applying to America wasn't a good call...

The fact that this conversation is even happening boggles my mind, like some healthcare Poe's law stuff.

Join in on the mayhem.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Starts to make sense why America is so slow to make progress huh? Can only hope that fifty years from now the American generation can look back at us the way we can look at grandparents that were on the fence about racial segregation

I'm just happy we had Tommy Douglas, the guy needs more statues or something.

But yeah, I hope so too. It happens in generations, when old ideas die with the old boys club controlling policy, and I really think we're the ones who'll bring about that lasting change.

 

[StudyLater]

They are naturally mined actually. Regardless of the mining process, natural resources are always better than an arbitrarily defined paper.

Paper is natural.

I think I just won this.

More like government interference serving as an enzyme to catalyze the incredibly slow reaction between oppressive society and helpful free market.

Yeah but being helpful really isn't entropically favorable for me.

 

[StudyLater]

@efle come on let's be real. Our grandparents are pretty racist. F*ck it, the generation before me is to a large degree, particularly when the person is (ironically) a 1st gen immigrant.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Join in on the mayhem.

As much as I'm dying to, I'm a little busy.

Have to start applying to my wonky socialist medical schools up here in back asswards Canada where we actually believe in equal access to care (GOSH right?).

'Tis the season.

 

[StudyLater]

And what of societies in which doctors, lawyers, CEOs share in the same giant middle class existence? Do you believe socialist countries are, as a rule, devoid of producers?

No, but they're probably pretty devoid of beamers and benzes.

 

[SabaChampion]

No, but they're probably pretty devoid of beamers and benzes.

Can you turn the trolling down from 9 to 4? It's just becoming annoying now, and isn't even all that entertaining.

 

[StudyLater]

As much as I'm dying to, I'm a little busy.

Have to start applying to my wonky socialist medical schools up here in back asswards Canada where we actually believe in equal access to care (GOSH right?).

'Tis the season.

Dude that's so weird. No golden pimp chalice (with little diamonds all around it) upon graduation. Bro I feel for you.

 

[StudyLater]

Can you turn the trolling down from 9 to 4? It's just becoming annoying now, and isn't even all that entertaining.

I'm sorry to have made you so upset.

 

[SabaChampion]

And what of societies in which doctors, lawyers, CEOs share in the same giant middle class existence? Do you believe socialist countries are, as a rule, devoid of producers?

This "middle class" is different from the one we have in our country. This "middle class" consists of the upper class, which has been pulled down by a parasitic society. This "middle class" produces much less than our upper class, I can tell you that much.

 

[SabaChampion]

I'm sorry to have made you so upset.

No worries, I'll just hit ignore. Problem solved.

 

[Lawpy]

I forgot paper beats rock. You win @StudyLater and @efle

For a more politically/socially suitable alternative before I get yelled at:

 

[StudyLater]

This "middle class" consists of the upper class, which has been pulled down by a parasitic society. This "middle class" produces much less than our upper class, I can tell you that much.

I'm confused. So the upper class is the middle class, now? Then who are you talking about when you say the "upper class?" The ones that haven't been dragged down by the unproductive middle class?

And so if the upper class are the middle class, are the previous middle class now the lower class?

 

[StudyLater]

Anyway moral of the story is equal care for all even though they don't deserve it but kind of do. Also don't profit off of misery, unless the miserable person is living at or higher than the middle class level.

the end.

 

[heebeejeebies]

Dude that's so weird. No golden pimp chalice (with little diamonds all around it) upon graduation. Bro I feel for you.

It's cool, I'll probably shotgun a Molson, play a little puck and gladly give up 50% of my future earnings so that kids growing up like I did have some of the opportunities welfare gave me.

Then I'll high five a moose, have a double-double, go for a rip bud and enjoy my entirely comfortable lifestyle.

 

[SabaChampion]

It's cool, I'll probably shotgun a Molson, play a little puck and gladly give up 50% of my future earnings so that kids growing up like I did have some of the opportunities welfare gave me.

Then I'll high five a moose, have a double-double, go for a rip bud and enjoy my entirely comfortable lifestyle.

I'm glad you are satisfied with mediocrity, but most of us are not.

 

[ZedsDed]

I'm glad you are satisfied with mediocrity, but most of us are not.

You're at a Caribbean med school *drops mic*.

 

[StudyLater]

It's cool, I'll probably shotgun a Molson, play a little puck and gladly give up 50% of my future earnings so that kids growing up like I did have some of the opportunities welfare gave me.

Then I'll high five a moose, have a double-double, go for a rip bud and enjoy my entirely comfortable lifestyle.

Ty for teaching me a cool Canadian phrase. May you have great success, heebeejeebies.

 

[StudyLater]

You're at a Caribbean med school *drops mic*.

OHHHHH F*CKKKKKK!!!!!

 

[Lawpy]

You're at a Caribbean med school *drops mic*.

OHHHHH F*CKKKKKK!!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

#StolenEfleThunder #NoRegrets

 

[heebeejeebies]

I'm glad you are satisfied with mediocrity, but most of us are not.

I'm satisfied with doing great things while enjoying a perfectly comfortable lifestyle.

I'm in this to do, not to be.

 

[efle]

This "middle class" is different from the one we have in our country. This "middle class" consists of the upper class, which has been pulled down by a parasitic society. This "middle class" produces much less than our upper class, I can tell you that much.

Their middle class is damn near identical to ours in terms of lifestyle/QoL. A bit better actually, in terms of hours worked and benefits like maternity/paternity. Not to mention that productivity is a pretty ****ty metric to look at when the vast majority of new production just feeds right back into the tippy top fraction of a percentile. I'm more interested in things like shrinking middle class, stagnant wages, decreasing accessibility of higher education

You're at a Caribbean med school *drops mic*.

 

[Lawpy]

Well we are talking about healthcare here, so the more adequate gif would be

 

[C02232934]

Lol

 

[JustintheDoctor]

I'm glad you are satisfied with mediocrity, but most of us are not.

your life is basically over. @ZedsDed is going to win a nobel prize

 

[StudyLater]

Their middle class is damn near identical to ours in terms of lifestyle/QoL. A bit better actually, in terms of hours worked and benefits like maternity/paternity. Not to mention that productivity is a pretty ****ty metric to look at when the vast majority of new production just feeds right back into the tippy top fraction of a percentile. I'm more interested in things like shrinking middle class, stagnant wages, decreasing accessibility of higher education

Ty I did not know that the "workers" did all the work to make those productions. The name it just....confused the **** out of me.

 

[efle]

Ty I did not know that the "workers" did all the work to make those productions. The name it just....confused the **** out of me.

I am trying really hard to understand what you're saying here but I got nothin

 

[Nietzschelover]

@efle, can you bring me up to speed here? Someone tagged me so gotta decide whether to jump in here. A quick review makes me wonder how many have actually worked with the disadvantaged in a genuine way as opposed to getting another notch on the resume bullet board. The disadvantaged don't want to be losers. I know that much. Now my namesake didn't like parasites or pity, and he praised those that reacted to the world actively instead of reactively (and then blaming others for one's fate), but he would be even more critical of the evangelical right and hoarding riches. The measure of a man is being wealthy enough (psychologically and otherwise) to take care of those less fortunate.

 

[efle]

@efle, can you bring me up to speed here? Someone tagged me so gotta decide whether to jump in here. A quick review makes me wonder how many have actually worked with the disadvantaged in a genuine way as opposed to getting another notch on the resume bullet board. The disadvantaged don't want to be losers. I know that much. Now my namesake didn't like parasites or pity, and he praised those that reacted to the world actively instead of reactively (and then blaming others for one's fate), but he would be even more critical of the evangelical right and hoarding riches. The measure of a man is being wealthy enough (psychologically and otherwise) to take care of those less fortunate.

Iirc, my involvement in this thread has just been a big discussion with sb about his moral code (which will not allow lying or stealing even to save the lives of innocents - killing is ok though) and then last night some carib med student who hates the mediocrity of the unwashed masses started going off about how the ultra wealthy deserve to keep every cent, as they are responsible for progress and growth in society, and the richer they get the better it is for everyone blah blah blah

 

[Nietzschelover]

Iirc, my involvement in this thread has just been a big discussion with sb about his moral code (which will not allow lying or stealing even to save the lives of innocents - killing is ok though) and then last night some carib med student who hates the mediocrity of the unwashed masses started going off about how the ultra wealthy deserve to keep every cent, as they are responsible for progress and growth in society, and the richer they get the better it is for everyone blah blah blah

Oh, so Reagan went Carribean on us lol.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Nietzschelover --

circling back to the OP's question. I don't think taxes will change, but I do think pay will go down across the board.
But single payer is inevitable, so I suggest we "Feel the Bern" now and get on with it.

 

[NicMouse64]

Nietzschelover --

circling back to the OP's question. I don't think taxes will change, but I do think pay will go down across the board.
But single payer is inevitable, so I suggest we "Feel the Bern" now and get on with it.

Why do you believe single payer will cause pay to go down across the board? Theoretically taking insurance companies out of the equation will make things more cost effective while paying doctors on salary--without needing to bill/code. Maybe I am just naive.