Will Trump win again???

[deleted643396]

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Certainly this wasn't near the major metros like Springfield or Boston was it? NE states like this are typically in the bag for dems regardless of who they nominate. I heard this about NJ during Romney running against Obama that Repubs were gonna turn the state purple...never but happened.

I don’t really think he’ll flip states like MA, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I just think that the notion that Trump supporters are meeting in secret with winks and nods in a hostile territory, like Boston, is way off from reality. Again, it’s a weird sense of being persecuted. To be honest, it wouldn’t surprise me if Republican strategy was to create this sense of persecution through sympathetic cable news channels and social media in order to create a sense of cohesiveness and shared goals.

 

[deleted941485]

My prediction Harris wipes the floor with Biden. Anything Biden says can and will be construed as racist and sexist. God help him If he uses the wrong pronoun.

Looking forward to seeing moderates being shouted down.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Trump is playing the democrats like a fiddle and everyone of them is falling for it. The dems are stepping in it every time they turn around.
The dems have no viable candidate to offer up. Literally not a single one that can withstand the media scrutiny. Most Trump supporters keep their mouths shut where I am and watch the drama play out. I suspect that the election will play out just like before and he will win another four years.
Which dem candidate is a viable threat?
Warren? No. The native american issue will end her campaign if she is the nominee.
Sanders? No, Too old and too socialist.
Biden? No. He is a loose cannon and will sink his own ship
Beto? No. He is a joke of a candidate and could not even win his local election despite infusion of millions from out of state lobbyists.
Buttigieg? No. He is a novelty act.
Kamala Harris? No. She runs a state that is bankrupt.
Williamson? No. No one has heard of her and she is as wacky as the psychic hotline. Too far out there, even for the democrats.
Booker? No. Too much of a long shot and no time to make up the gap when there are 20 other dem candidates.
The others? No one has heard of them.

The only way I see for the dems to stand a chance is if they have 15 candidates drop out of the race in the next couple of weeks. Otherwise, they are just cannibalizing themselves and doing Trump's work for him. It's like a prize fighter having to fight three matches back to back in order to face the champ, who has fought no one and is well rested and prepared and had plenty of time to see the tendencies of their opponent from the previous fights. The democratic candidate that survives the primaries will arrive to the main race with plenty of battle scars and baggage that their fellow dem opponents have saddled them with.

Most Trump supporters aren't huge fans of him as a human, but like the economy that he is helping to thrive, despite having a non-stop barrage of attacks. I think that mentality will win the day in the main election. I see the typical Trump supporter as quietly supporting him because they are sick and tired of business as usual corrupt politics that we have seen for decades. They want a reset of how things are done in D.C. I know there are some very vocal supporters who wear the MAGA hats etc. But the typical ones that I have seen are the opposite and just quietly smile as the democrats destroy their chances in the upcoming presidential election. Every time someone grabs one of those MAGA hats off of someone's head and commits an act of violence against the person wearing it, Trump gains more support from the states that will decide this election (not California or NY). Every time someone refers to an illegal immigrant detention center as a concentration camp, Trump wins more support from those same states. I am not saying these things are right or wrong, I am just calling it as I see it.

Is Trump an arrogant prick? Most likely. Is he a womanizer? I suspect that he has been one, even in the recent past. Does he use Twitter entirely too much? Absolutely. Is he a narcissist? No doubt about that. Is he racist? I have not seen evidence of that despite multiple calls for people to bring forth the evidence. What some refer to as racist, in my opinion, is not. Saying Baltimore is a rat infested city is not what I consider racist. He is simply stating an opinion that is actually shared by many who live there, including city leaders. It is more like, "I can criticize my own city, but you better not say one thing about my beloved city." That is normal pride of where you are from. We see it all of the time. Like criticizing your brother/sister, but then coming to their defense when someone outside the family has anything bad to say about them. Leaders defense of Baltimore from Trump is actually having the opposite effect that they want, but the exact effect that Trump wants. He wants them to come out and defend the city's corrupt politics so that he can come back and use it against them later to show that they support corruption in politics. The whole thing is a shell game and the democrats are lining up just as Trump wants them to.

I don't consider myself a Trump supporter, but I think he is playing the game smarter than any democratic candidate. He has set the trap and will spring it once he sees who he will be going up against in the election.

In closing, I think Trump will win unless the economy implodes or the dems pare it down to a couple of candidates pretty quick. Even then, I think it will be tough for the democrats to win just because of the lack of a viable front runner. It is difficult for me to believe that neither party can come up with better candidates than what we have seen in the past two decades. It is shameful on both sides.

 

[vector2]

. I see the typical Trump supporter as quietly supporting him because they are sick and tired of business as usual corrupt politics that we have seen for decades.

The current president, just right down the street from where he lives, literally owns a hotel where foreign countries and corporations (both foreign and domestic) host $100,000 parties right before they ask him for something. He still has not put his assets in a blind trust. He still remains the only president in the modern era not to release his tax returns. His administration has had more turnover of campaign members, cabinet members, and senior staff than the last 3 administrations combined, mostly because of activity ranging from unethical to downright illegal.

But please, do go on about how people are sick of corruption.

 

[deleted162650]

General Anti-Trump sentiment is high in my town. His supporters usually keep their thoughts quiet. Not a lot of MAGA hats walking down the street.

Your county is weird like that. In town it's super liberal, but literally the entire rest of the county is very red. It makes for some interesting local politics and elections if you haven't experienced that yet.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

God I hope they move these debates off CNN and find better moderators who don’t constantly interrupt...

 

[PieOHmy]

The current president, just right down the street from where he lives, literally owns a hotel where foreign countries and corporations (both foreign and domestic) host $100,000 parties right before they ask him for something. He still has not put his assets in a blind trust. He still remains the only president in the modern era not to release his tax returns. His administration has had more turnover of campaign members, cabinet members, and senior staff than the last 3 administrations combined, mostly because of activity ranging from unethical to downright illegal.

But please, do go on about how people are sick of corruption.

The corruption you speak of Trump is guilty of is not even in the same league and scale as that of the massive govt waste fraud and abuse govt business as usual politics that goes on. The fact that there is huge turnover is a GREAT thing. Cant get the job done? Youre MF fired. NEXT.
Joe Biden cant get the job done in 40 years and wants to be president. PuhLeez.

Trump wins again

 

[DirtDocMD]

I didn’t catch the latest Dem debate. How much of MY money did they promise to THEIR voters last night???

 

[d9sccr]

I didn’t catch the latest Dem debate. How much of MY money did they promise to THEIR voters last night???

Depends in part on your race.

$32 trillion is the CBO estimate for these "medicare for all" plans. We all know how drastically the CBO routinely underestimates costs. So you'll owe a chunk of that, while receiving less in income. Should be a blast.

 

[deleted941485]

I didn’t catch the latest Dem debate. How much of MY money did they promise to THEIR voters last night???

Promising to use OPM to pay for new programs shouldn’t be called bold or innovative at all. This is typical of every left wing govt around the welfare state was conceived. It’s a very old playbook.

Everyone is on board with it usually because it basically demands little from the voter or so they think.

 

[deleted941485]

Depends in part on your race.

$32 trillion is the CBO estimate for these "medicare for all" plans. We all know how drastically the CBO routinely underestimates costs. So you'll owe a chunk of that, while receiving less in income. Should be a blast.

Less income and being taxed more. Libs and their handlers get off on you doing more and getting less.

 

[deleted643396]

The corruption you speak of Trump is guilty of is not even in the same league and scale as that of the massive govt waste fraud and abuse govt business as usual politics that goes on. The fact that there is huge turnover is a GREAT thing. Cant get the job done? Youre MF fired. NEXT.
Joe Biden cant get the job done in 40 years and wants to be president. PuhLeez.

Trump wins again

Imagine if Obama did that...or better yet, Hilary.

I actually hear the hotel is a good place to spend the night if you want to get a good deal on some nuclear weapons technology.

 

[radsisrad]

What is the reaction? I see Trump bumper stickers lining the doctor parking lot. Most doctors I know are proud Trump supporters.

Interesting. Not at all my experience. Some doubtless support(ed) him, but to do so openly is more or less career suicide in academics.

 

[deleted941485]

Interesting. Not at all my experience. Some doubtless support(ed) him, but to do so openly is more or less career suicide in academics.

Academics especially. Definitely a double standard. If your left wing, then you can be vocal about your views.

 

[Stank811]

Imagine if Obama did that...or better yet, Hilary.

I actually hear the hotel is a good place to spend the night if you want to get a good deal on some nuclear weapons technology.

Imagine if Obama did that...or better yet, Hilary.

I actually hear the hotel is a good place to spend the night if you want to get a good deal on some nuclear weapons technology.

I can’t tell if you are joking or serious.

Obama and Hillary will go down has the most corrupt politicians in the history of the United States...be patient it is about to come out.

Obama and Hillary led the illegal spying on a presidential campaign using our and our allies intelligence communities to frame a narrative around Russian collusion and then use that pretense to spy on a private citizen running for president and the once the citizen was fairly elected they used the same narrative to try and remove the president from office. Do not be blind there is plenty of evidence that illustrates the above...zero evidence that trump is using his hotel to sell state secrets.

It is more likely that all our state secrets where sold by Hillary using a backdoor to her private email server.

 

[d9sccr]

Less income and being taxed more. Libs and their handlers get off on you doing more and getting less.

Let's be clear, the majority of the Democratic party is not "liberal", at least in the classic senc

Interesting. Not at all my experience. Some doubtless support(ed) him, but to do so openly is more or less career suicide in academics.

I understand how academics are "having their cake and eating it too". How many of your attendings had any real concept of billing? We had 2-3 that were prior private practice docs but other than that, there was nobody to go to with specific questions to prepare myself for private practice. By the same token, with the expansion of AMCs, these docs are equally as shielded from billing.

Any of us that do our own billing and know reimbursement rates can't possibly support the socialized medicine route. Medicare/Medicaid pays at best 1/2 of what private insurers do and in many cases far less than that even. So their proposition is to decrease our income via reduced collections and increase our taxes across a variety of platforms.

That's not even taking into account what "medicare for all" will look like from a patient perspective. I highly suspect that if this goes through, we'll see another socioeconomic fracturing point. There will be the public care that will be heavy handed in midlevels providing an ever increasing amount of care. Beyond that, there's going to be a finite amount of resources for an ever more unhealthy population that currently expects immediate and nearly limitless care. How's that going to play out? Meanwhile, there will be a private cash (if private insurance is really outlawed) sector that will be for the "rich" only. There will be a difference in health outcomes between the two. There's no way this can be good for the country.

 

[GaseousClay]

The current president, just right down the street from where he lives, literally owns a hotel where foreign countries and corporations (both foreign and domestic) host $100,000 parties right before they ask him for something. He still has not put his assets in a blind trust. He still remains the only president in the modern era not to release his tax returns. His administration has had more turnover of campaign members, cabinet members, and senior staff than the last 3 administrations combined, mostly because of activity ranging from unethical to downright illegal.

But please, do go on about how people are sick of corruption.

Trump donates his presidential salary to charity, not sure how many presidents have not taken a salary. Its possible others have donated their salaries but not sure.

 

[agammaglobulin]

Depends in part on your race.

$32 trillion is the CBO estimate for these "medicare for all" plans. We all know how drastically the CBO routinely underestimates costs. So you'll owe a chunk of that, while receiving less in income. Should be a blast.

You forgot the additional $3 Trillion (her number) to fund the Green New Deal. And free college! And erasing student loans! Any other voter groups want free ****?

But don’t worry about your taxes, “total costs” will go down.

 

[Twiggidy]

God I hope they move these debates off CNN and find better moderators who don’t constantly interrupt...

This I agree with. The format was terrible

 

[d9sccr]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/08/01/european-health-care-models-eyed-by-democrats-are-risk-faltering/?utm_term=.34cfc6b73577

Nothing to see folks

 

[Twiggidy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/08/01/european-health-care-models-eyed-by-democrats-are-risk-faltering/?utm_term=.34cfc6b73577

Nothing to see folks

I actually want to read that but I'm too cheap to subscribe

 

[pgg]

I actually want to read that but I'm too cheap to subscribe

Executive summary: universal healthcare is becoming unaffordable and unsustainable for those European nations who look upon us with scorn for not having universal healthcare, despite having many fewer fat people and much higher taxes. All in the context of a half-century's worth of peace dividend they have enjoyed by offloading their defense budgets to the United States.

 

[chocomorsel]

What is the reaction? I see Trump bumper stickers lining the doctor parking lot. Most doctors I know are proud Trump supporters.

Dude, the CNN channel at this country hospital I work in is disabled on Direct TV. Like I can’t access it. I need some kind of passcode. I never even knew you could do that. So I entertain myself with Fox News. Talk about balsa.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

The only way universal healthcare can be affordable is if we limit it. Sure we can pay for your appy or mastectomy or insulin or CT/MRI, but how the heck are we gonna afford paying for every end stage heart failure or COPD exacerbation? The people on ECMO? Every sick person in the ICU who we know is dying but the family is praying for a miracle? Those NICU babies born way too early who spend months in the ICU and then either pass away or go on to a lifetime of disability?

I believe everyone deserves some basic quality healthcare, but no one deserves everything available. At my residency we never denied any option to patients. Personally found it horrific what we put people through...

 

[Twiggidy]

Dude, the CNN channel at this country hospital I work in is disabled on Direct TV. Like I can’t access it. I need some kind of passcode. I never even knew you could do that. So I entertain myself with Fox News. Talk about balsa.

Here it's no MSNBC.......and also interestingly enough no BET *hmmm emoji*

 

[Twiggidy]

The only way universal healthcare can be affordable is if we limit it. Sure we can pay for your appy or mastectomy or insulin or CT/MRI, but how the heck are we gonna afford paying for every end stage heart failure or COPD exacerbation? The people on ECMO? Every sick person in the ICU who we know is dying but the family is praying for a miracle? Those NICU babies born way too early who spend months in the ICU and then either pass away or go on to a lifetime of disability?

I believe everyone deserves some basic quality healthcare, but no one deserves everything available. At my residency we never denied any option to patients. Personally found it horrific what we put people through...

That's actually what other countries do, or so the reading I've been doing says. The only give certain benefits and yeah, you may have to wait for that non-life threatening surgery. But we're America and we want things now. I'm still on the fence about universal health care, as a physician. The more I read about single payer I know that will be a "I'm a no dogg" for me, because if Medicare is any indication, I don't want the government owning healthcare and healthcare workers. If I were an average American vote, I don't see too much of a problem with a combination system as Biden and Harris suggest because even the tax hike only hits the richest Americans/corporations per their proposals. That's out of my tax bracket anyway. Will a company leave the US because of the tax? Maybe, that's something to consider. Again, as a physician specialist I'm not entirely for it because it could put some of us out of business if people mostly choose "the universal plan" versus a private insurer. It's a tough subject.

 

[deleted643396]

Universal healthcare is not about giving everyone free stuff (although Andrew Yang has my vote because he’s going to send me checks in the mail). It’s about reigning in costs that have gotten out of control. The relentless stories about Epipens, insulin pricing, and pharma bros have pissed enough people off. Over half a million people declare bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. Even more struggle to make ends meet to pay those bills. The healthcare industry has been ripping people off for decades. We’ve had multiple opportunities to police ourselves with ways to control costs and we are failing bigly. If you want to be angry at anyone for the march towards single-payer healthcare, be angry at the pharmaceutical companies and corporations who have been squeezing this fruit dry for decades.

You know who should foot the bill for the obesity and related comorbidity epidemic? The processed food industry that puts out fake science and creates “foods” that are awful for you, but incredibly addicting. Tax them. A can of soda should cost $25. A pack of cigarettes should cost $100. Tax the lifestyle choices that make people unhealthy (that won’t ever happen because of powerful lobbies in DC).

We should absolutely put limits of futile end of life care. I am all about death panels. I want to be the leader of a hospital death panel.

 

[pgg]

A can of soda should cost $25. A pack of cigarettes should cost $100. Tax the lifestyle choices that make people unhealthy (that won’t ever happen because of powerful lobbies in DC).

Should we tax cars that can go over 25 mph and outlaw motorcycles?

But wait. Smokers cost less, on the whole, than non-smokers, because they die young. They have lower lifetime medical needs, and (here's a great benefit!) they collect Social Security for a much shorter time. Smokers should be honored for taking one for the team this way.

We should be subsidizing cigarettes, not taxing them. It's the only sound economic policy.

Oh, alcohol too. Actually, we should go a step further, and mandate 1% methanol content in all distilled spirits. Let's get even further ahead of the curve.

 

[deleted941485]

Should we tax cars that can go over 25 mph and outlaw motorcycles?

But wait. Smokers cost less, on the whole, than non-smokers, because they die young. They have lower lifetime medical needs, and (here's a great benefit!) they collect Social Security for a much shorter time. Smokers should be honored for taking one for the team this way.

We should be subsidizing cigarettes, not taxing them. It's the only sound economic policy.

Oh, alcohol too. Actually, we should go a step further, and mandate 1% methanol content in all distilled spirits. Let's get even further ahead of the curve.

I used to tell people not to smoke and drink until I realized what business do I have telling them what they can do with their bodies? Plus being a potential customer also helped as well.

 

[d9sccr]

That's actually what other countries do, or so the reading I've been doing says. The only give certain benefits and yeah, you may have to wait for that non-life threatening surgery. But we're America and we want things now. I'm still on the fence about universal health care, as a physician. The more I read about single payer I know that will be a "I'm a no dogg" for me, because if Medicare is any indication, I don't want the government owning healthcare and healthcare workers. If I were an average American vote, I don't see too much of a problem with a combination system as Biden and Harris suggest because even the tax hike only hits the richest Americans/corporations per their proposals. That's out of my tax bracket anyway. Will a company leave the US because of the tax? Maybe, that's something to consider. Again, as a physician specialist I'm not entirely for it because it could put some of us out of business if people mostly choose "the universal plan" versus a private insurer. It's a tough subject.

Like I said, the CBO radically underestimates costs. Just check out how well they "nailed" the ACA. Warren, Sanders, Harris, whomever can claim corporations and "the wealthy" will be the ones paying for this, but corporations aren't restricted to staying in the US. Plenty have left before, they'll leave again if pressed. The upper AND middle classes will be the ones paying for socialized medicine. The cost is too much for "the wealthy" to bear alone.

I'd be on board with a basic preventive care plan to be funded by tax dollars, BUT we all know what comes next. Democrats would never just make their peace with this and push the envelope further and further. Republicans will go along with it so long as we get more military spending and the cycle continues.

 

[d9sccr]

Universal healthcare is not about giving everyone free stuff (although Andrew Yang has my vote because he’s going to send me checks in the mail). It’s about reigning in costs that have gotten out of control. The relentless stories about Epipens, insulin pricing, and pharma bros have pissed enough people off. Over half a million people declare bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. Even more struggle to make ends meet to pay those bills. The healthcare industry has been ripping people off for decades. We’ve had multiple opportunities to police ourselves with ways to control costs and we are failing bigly. If you want to be angry at anyone for the march towards single-payer healthcare, be angry at the pharmaceutical companies and corporations who have been squeezing this fruit dry for decades.

You know who should foot the bill for the obesity and related comorbidity epidemic? The processed food industry that puts out fake science and creates “foods” that are awful for you, but incredibly addicting. Tax them. A can of soda should cost $25. A pack of cigarettes should cost $100. Tax the lifestyle choices that make people unhealthy (that won’t ever happen because of powerful lobbies in DC).

We should absolutely put limits of futile end of life care. I am all about death panels. I want to be the leader of a hospital death panel.

I don't really disagree with this, but you know who's been funding/subsidizing corn/agriculture and its downstream effects?

I just don't buy that socialized is the only way to reign costs in. We don't have anything resembling an open market in terms of purchasing insurance or shopping for healthcare.

Take this for example: Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war

It's been going on for a few years so I assume they're making enough that everyone is happy with the current setup. There was a WSJ article last year about the cost of knee replacements across the country. IIRC, the price varied from $13k->$70k for the same procedure. Their all inclusive pricing for a knee replacement is $15,500 while the average across the country is $50k. Transparency and an open market will cure a lot of what ails the healthcare market IMO.

What Does Knee Surgery Cost? Few Know, and That’s a Problem

The price we pay for health care often has little connection to the actual costs. One hospital decided to investigate by studying knee-replacement operations. Over 18 months, an efficiency expert trailed doctors and nurses to record every minute of activity. The result was much lower than the...

www.wsj.com

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

I don't really disagree with this, but you know who's been funding/subsidizing corn/agriculture and its downstream effects?

I just don't buy that socialized is the only way to reign costs in. We don't have anything resembling an open market in terms of purchasing insurance or shopping for healthcare.

Take this for example: Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war

It's been going on for a few years so I assume they're making enough that everyone is happy with the current setup. There was a WSJ article last year about the cost of knee replacements across the country. IIRC, the price varied from $13k->$70k for the same procedure. Their all inclusive pricing for a knee replacement is $15,500 while the average across the country is $50k. Transparency and an open market will cure a lot of what ails the healthcare market IMO.

What Does Knee Surgery Cost? Few Know, and That’s a Problem

The price we pay for health care often has little connection to the actual costs. One hospital decided to investigate by studying knee-replacement operations. Over 18 months, an efficiency expert trailed doctors and nurses to record every minute of activity. The result was much lower than the...

www.wsj.com

It would be great if all elective things had a price we could shop around for and leave insurance to pay for catastrophes. Don’t make no dam sense for me to pay a middle man to pay a doctor for a yearly checkup... like just pay the doctor directly!

 

[deleted941485]

Like I said, the CBO radically underestimates costs. Just check out how well they "nailed" the ACA. Warren, Sanders, Harris, whomever can claim corporations and "the wealthy" will be the ones paying for this, but corporations aren't restricted to staying in the US. Plenty have left before, they'll leave again if pressed. The upper AND middle classes will be the ones paying for socialized medicine. The cost is too much for "the wealthy" to bear alone.

I'd be on board with a basic preventive care plan to be funded by tax dollars, BUT we all know what comes next. Democrats would never just make their peace with this and push the envelope further and further. Republicans will go along with it so long as we get more military spending and the cycle continues.

Just like the public option. I’m sure it’ll start out as fairly innocuous and then swallow the entire system as politicians over the years continually expand and expand and expand. They were never satisfied with the the DRGs/TERFA, HMOs of the 90s, or the ACA because it was never about any of that stuff. They want full control of the system. Even when repub threatened he ACA and took it to court in 2012 dems were already threatening that if it failed they would just push through single payor in the senate.

 

[Ligament]

The corruption you speak of Trump is guilty of is not even in the same league and scale as that of the massive govt waste fraud and abuse govt business as usual politics that goes on. The fact that there is huge turnover is a GREAT thing. Cant get the job done? Youre MF fired. NEXT.
Joe Biden cant get the job done in 40 years and wants to be president. PuhLeez.

Trump wins again

Turnover of these bureaucrats is a wonderful thing. Get the job done or get the hell out. We have enough wastes of life holding lifelong positions of incompetence in DC.

 

[Ligament]

Trump can assure his re-election with one simple thing; refuse donations to the campaign. Self fund it.

Certain win. Impossible to corrupt unlike every other President since the introduction of campaign poisoning.

 

[deleted941485]

I don't really disagree with this, but you know who's been funding/subsidizing corn/agriculture and its downstream effects?

I just don't buy that socialized is the only way to reign costs in. We don't have anything resembling an open market in terms of purchasing insurance or shopping for healthcare.

Take this for example: Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war

It's been going on for a few years so I assume they're making enough that everyone is happy with the current setup. There was a WSJ article last year about the cost of knee replacements across the country. IIRC, the price varied from $13k->$70k for the same procedure. Their all inclusive pricing for a knee replacement is $15,500 while the average across the country is $50k. Transparency and an open market will cure a lot of what ails the healthcare market IMO.

What Does Knee Surgery Cost? Few Know, and That’s a Problem

The price we pay for health care often has little connection to the actual costs. One hospital decided to investigate by studying knee-replacement operations. Over 18 months, an efficiency expert trailed doctors and nurses to record every minute of activity. The result was much lower than the...

www.wsj.com

If hospitals were getting 50K for a knee, they’d all have toilet seats made out of platinum and paying the PCAs 80/hr. This seems like what the charge master is writing down and not nearly what is actually changing hands. I wonder how much of a discount they actually got.

 

[deleted643396]

Should we tax cars that can go over 25 mph and outlaw motorcycles?

But wait. Smokers cost less, on the whole, than non-smokers, because they die young. They have lower lifetime medical needs, and (here's a great benefit!) they collect Social Security for a much shorter time. Smokers should be honored for taking one for the team this way.

We should be subsidizing cigarettes, not taxing them. It's the only sound economic policy.

Oh, alcohol too. Actually, we should go a step further, and mandate 1% methanol content in all distilled spirits. Let's get even further ahead of the curve.

Fine, you want to call it an insurance premium instead of a tax? Does that make it better? We can get the mean government out of the picture and give the money to benevolent corporations like insurance companies instead? Either way you are paying for your risk.

 

[deleted50478]

Like I said, the CBO radically underestimates costs. Just check out how well they "nailed" the ACA. Warren, Sanders, Harris, whomever can claim corporations and "the wealthy" will be the ones paying for this, but corporations aren't restricted to staying in the US. Plenty have left before, they'll leave again if pressed. The upper AND middle classes will be the ones paying for socialized medicine. The cost is too much for "the wealthy" to bear alone.

I'd be on board with a basic preventive care plan to be funded by tax dollars, BUT we all know what comes next. Democrats would never just make their peace with this and push the envelope further and further. Republicans will go along with it so long as we get more military spending and the cycle continues.

I’m not saying a single payer system will necessarily work well but at least address the actual arguments.
I think the point is that the government, corporations, and individuals are already paying more than enough money to provide health insurance to the whole population. The money is just largely being wasted.
If my insurance costs $16,000 a year for premiums and I pay another $5k out-of-pocket because of high out-of-pocket maximums, how terrible would it be to pay $8k per year for a public option and have my taxes go up $8k?
I mean no one wants to pay more taxes, but it can be okay depending on what you get in return.
Same for corporations. You think their taxes will go up more than the amount they currently spend providing health plans to their employees? I doubt it. Single payer would be more likely to save jobs than drive them overseas.
I mean if we get Medicare for all it might be the worst thing that ever happens to me personally. It might be terrible for the country, but it might be good for the country if it could actually run efficiently (which, yeah, it won’t). Just please quit pretending we don’t already spend enormous amounts on healthcare that could theoretically be better allocated with no additional cost and potentially with savings.

 

[deleted643396]

I don't really disagree with this, but you know who's been funding/subsidizing corn/agriculture and its downstream effects?

I just don't buy that socialized is the only way to reign costs in. We don't have anything resembling an open market in terms of purchasing insurance or shopping for healthcare.

Take this for example: Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war

It's been going on for a few years so I assume they're making enough that everyone is happy with the current setup. There was a WSJ article last year about the cost of knee replacements across the country. IIRC, the price varied from $13k->$70k for the same procedure. Their all inclusive pricing for a knee replacement is $15,500 while the average across the country is $50k. Transparency and an open market will cure a lot of what ails the healthcare market IMO.

What Does Knee Surgery Cost? Few Know, and That’s a Problem

The price we pay for health care often has little connection to the actual costs. One hospital decided to investigate by studying knee-replacement operations. Over 18 months, an efficiency expert trailed doctors and nurses to record every minute of activity. The result was much lower than the...

www.wsj.com

Oh I think the government should stop subsidizing industrial agriculture today.

Price transparency may help if the healthcare behaved like a normal market. It doesn’t. People often don’t have choices because of their insurance. Throw on top of that the consolidation and formation of regional monopolies and price transparency does absolutely nothing but give you a clearer picture of how you are being ripped off.

 

[d9sccr]

I’m not saying a single payer system will necessarily work well but at least address the actual arguments.
I think the point is that the government, corporations, and individuals are already paying more than enough money to provide health insurance to the whole population. The money is just largely being wasted.
If my insurance costs $16,000 a year for premiums and I pay another $5k out-of-pocket because of high out-of-pocket maximums, how terrible would it be to pay $8k per year for a public option and have my taxes go up $8k?
I mean no one wants to pay more taxes, but it can be okay depending on what you get in return.
Same for corporations. You think their taxes will go up more than the amount they currently spend providing health plans to their employees? I doubt it. Single payer would be more likely to save jobs than drive them overseas.
I mean if we get Medicare for all it might be the worst thing that ever happens to me personally. It might be terrible for the country, but it might be good for the country if it could actually run efficiently (which, yeah, it won’t). Just please quit pretending we don’t already spend enormous amounts on healthcare that could theoretically be better allocated with no additional cost and potentially wily savings.

You're pulling the $8k number out of thin air. It would be great if we could all pay $8k/yr and have a real safety net healthcare system. I'd be happy to even double or triple that figure, but that's not reality. Every country that has socialized medicine have extraordinary tax hikes and it's not just the wealthy being taxed. France and the Nordic countries are the most often cited utopian systems. Their tax rates happen to be 50-60%. This is why Warren and Bernie always dodge this question and deflect to "costs". This also omits where we stand in relation to "health" with other industrialized nations --hint: it ain't great. Sicker population that demands top of line healthcare on demand--and now on someone else's expense. You can't have it all.

The proposed cost of Medicare for all is $32 TRILLION over 10 years. In 2020, the US government expects to make 3.4 trillion in tax revenue. That barely covers what is admittedly a conservative figure for just healthcare. For comparison, the CBO missed the ACA estimates by almost 100%. You're going to pay more than $8k/yr to cover this. Realistically, you're going to pay double whatever your income bracket is now while the middle class's brackets increase more than that.

Nowhere do I make the assertion money isn't being wasted. For-profit insurance companies are by definition a middle man and therefore make the entire system less efficient. I also know that whenever government intervenes things don't get more efficient.

 

[d9sccr]

Oh I think the government should stop subsidizing industrial agriculture today.

Price transparency may help if the healthcare behaved like a normal market. It doesn’t. People often don’t have choices because of their insurance. Throw on top of that the consolidation and formation of regional monopolies and price transparency does absolutely nothing but give you a clearer picture of how you are being ripped off.

They don't have choices in where to get care b/c they don't have choices on their insurance. If insurance companies were actually competing instead of dividing up areas of the country, I think there'd be a big improvement in what we're dealing with. Capitalism has worked across several fields to improve end products while reducing price, why is healthcare different? At least the elective stuff.

The consolidation that occurred is the biggest lasting legacy of the ACA. The only beneficiaries of the ACA were insurance companies, hospitals, and 30k uninsurable people that the rest of the country is now supporting through increased premiums, and after the "ACA", increasing deductibles.

 

[deleted941485]

Massive consolidation and merging...not really a free marketers dream.

 

[deleted643396]

They don't have choices in where to get care b/c they don't have choices on their insurance. If insurance companies were actually competing instead of dividing up areas of the country, I think there'd be a big improvement in what we're dealing with. Capitalism has worked across several fields to improve end products while reducing price, why is healthcare different? At least the elective stuff.

The consolidation that occurred is the biggest lasting legacy of the ACA. The only beneficiaries of the ACA were insurance companies, hospitals, and 30k uninsurable people that the rest of the country is now supporting through increased premiums, and after the "ACA", increasing deductibles.

Regional health systems were consolidating well before the ACA. Did AMCs start with the ACA too?

 

[deleted941485]

Regional health systems were consolidating well before the ACA. Did AMCs start with the ACA too?

Definitely threw gasoline on that fire.

 

[deleted643396]

Definitely threw gasoline on that fire.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

[deleted941485]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Why? Look a thing how much merging has happened in the last decade.
It’s the only way to survive. How many deals have been inked since the ACA. It probably hit its stride in 2014-2017 and slowed down but that’s only because the low hanging fruit has been eaten already.

 

[deleted50478]

You're pulling the $8k number out of thin air. It would be great if we could all pay $8k/yr and have a real safety net healthcare system. I'd be happy to even double or triple that figure, but that's not reality. Every country that has socialized medicine have extraordinary tax hikes and it's not just the wealthy being taxed. France and the Nordic countries are the most often cited utopian systems. Their tax rates happen to be 50-60%. This is why Warren and Bernie always dodge this question and deflect to "costs". This also omits where we stand in relation to "health" with other industrialized nations --hint: it ain't great. Sicker population that demands top of line healthcare on demand--and now on someone else's expense. You can't have it all.

The proposed cost of Medicare for all is $32 TRILLION over 10 years. In 2020, the US government expects to make 3.4 trillion in tax revenue. That barely covers what is admittedly a conservative figure for just healthcare. For comparison, the CBO missed the ACA estimates by almost 100%. You're going to pay more than $8k/yr to cover this. Realistically, you're going to pay double whatever your income bracket is now while the middle class's brackets increase more than that.

Nowhere do I make the assertion money isn't being wasted. For-profit insurance companies are by definition a middle man and therefore make the entire system less efficient. I also know that whenever government intervenes things don't get more efficient.

True. I made up 8k for illustrative purposes, but actually per person spending is very close to $8000.

We currently spend 3.5 trillion a year on healthcare, so 32 trillion over 10 years isn’t as crazy as it initially sounds.

There’s just no situation in which my taxes would double to pay for health insurance for all. Like 35-40% of people are already on government plans. 50-55% are paying for private insurance; that money would be redirected, not just disappear. Only around 10% are uninsured. I mean the government sucks at pretty much everything they do, but I don’t think even they can squander healthcare dollars at 10 times the rate of our exorbitantly expensive third party payer system.

 

[deleted643396]

Why? Look a thing how much merging has happened in the last decade.
It’s the only way to survive. How many deals have been inked since the ACA. It probably hit its stride in 2014-2017 and slowed down but that’s only because the low hanging fruit has been eaten already.

Because it was happening well before then. It’s not about survival, either. It’s about greed.

 

[deleted941485]

Because it was happening well before then. It’s not about survival, either. It’s about greed.

My contention isn’t whether or not the ACA causes mergers. My contention is that they took a trend that predates the ACA and accelerated it.

Greed vs Survival: agree to disagree here

 

[deleted643396]

My contention isn’t whether or not the ACA causes mergers. My contention is that they took a trend that predates the ACA and accelerated it.

Greed vs Survival: agree to disagree here

These massive health systems are surviving while the CEO takes home millions and they build luxury lobbies with piano players and water fountains? That’s what we call survival? We can fund fancy glass atriums in the cafeteria, but we can’t provide primary care services for our citizens? Come on.